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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 08:30:01 2002
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Hey all. Tossing something to you all to get your ideas and possible
solutions.

The group I'm currently running has finally got a decker. We're having
fun getting into the new rules, and making sure everyone understands
enough that they can all participate in some way so they don't get bored
while we do Matrix sequences during game time. Unfortunately, I'm seeing
a disturbing trend in which the majority of the group doesn't want the
decker to come with them on-site when they have to access an independant
system. They instead have the habit of ripping out servers and
mainframes and carrying them out (3 characters with 7+ strength) for the
decker to go over later. Now where's the fun in that? ;-)

How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged
when someone pulls the plug abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's
cubby hole? I want to have a reason for them not to be ripping them out
every run, and I'm thinking that having a chance to lose that
all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone come
across similar circumstances?




Lange LeBlanc
e-Learning Authoring Specialist
MOUS 97 Master, MOUS 2000 Master
BKM Research & Development Inc.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Tel: (506) 857-9620

Fax: (506) 852-3728

Toll Free: 800-448-4258
Email: lange@***.ca

www.bkm.ca <http://www.bkm.ca/>;



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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=960481813-05022002>Hey all. Tossing
something to you all to get your ideas and possible
solutions.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=960481813-05022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=960481813-05022002>The group I'm
currently running has finally got a decker. We're&nbsp;having fun getting into
the new rules, and making sure everyone understands enough that they can all
participate in some way so they don't get bored while we do Matrix sequences
during game time. Unfortunately, I'm seeing a disturbing trend in which the
majority of the group doesn't want the decker to come with them on-site when
they have to access an independant system. They instead have the habit of
ripping out servers and mainframes and carrying them out (3 characters with 7+
strength)&nbsp;for the decker to go over later. Now where's the fun in that?
;-)&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=960481813-05022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=960481813-05022002>How much do we know
about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged when someone pulls the plug
abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's cubby hole? I want to have a reason for
them not to be ripping them out every run, and I'm thinking that having a chance
to lose that all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone
come across similar circumstances?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=960481813-05022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lange
LeBlanc</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">e-Learning Authoring
Specialist</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">MOUS 97 Master, MOUS 2000
Master</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">BKM Research &amp;
Development
Inc.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt">Tel:
(506) 857-9620</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt">Fax:
(506) 852-3728</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt">Toll
Free: 800-448-4258<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Email: <A
href="mailto:lange@***.ca">lange@***.ca</A></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
href="http://www.bkm.ca/">www.bkm.ca</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damian Sharp)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 08:55:01 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, LeBlanc, Lange wrote:

> How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged
> when someone pulls the plug abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's
> cubby hole? I want to have a reason for them not to be ripping them out
> every run, and I'm thinking that having a chance to lose that
> all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone come
> across similar circumstances?

Well, I'd imagine that SR computers are at least as fragile and
susceptable to power surges as modern computers. The sudden power loss can
cause loss of data, and shaking it too much could easily break
something. A deck is made to be pretty durable, but a mainframe isn't
really designed to be moved.

Additionally, a megacorp with valuable information could easily make it
even harder to move, assuming they'll never move it. It could be firmly
attached to the structure of the building, or even too big to move through
the doors without proper dismantling. If the information was really
sensitive, a mainframe could even be wired to explode if moved away from a
transmitted, or even moved signifigantly.

Obviously, not every corp would go through such extreme measures, but
assembling the servers in a room it becomes difficult to remove them from
is a very simple task.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Graduate |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"An explosion doesn't usually display the best parenting skills"
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 09:00:01 2002
Hey all. Tossing something to you all to get your ideas and possible
solutions.

The group I'm currently running has finally got a decker. We're having fun
getting into the new rules, and making sure everyone understands enough that
they can all participate in some way so they don't get bored while we do
Matrix sequences during game time. Unfortunately, I'm seeing a disturbing
trend in which the majority of the group doesn't want the decker to come
with them on-site when they have to access an independant system. They
instead have the habit of ripping out servers and mainframes and carrying
them out (3 characters with 7+ strength) for the decker to go over later.
Now where's the fun in that? ;-)

How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged when
someone pulls the plug abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's cubby hole?
I want to have a reason for them not to be ripping them out every run, and
I'm thinking that having a chance to lose that all-important information
they came for is reason enough. Anyone come across similar circumstances?


They do what?

I had this problem once. So I threw in the fact that the exec's desk had
the computer built into it. And that it was made of solid steel and a part
of the floor.

Hmm.... I always figured that servers and mainframes are NOT meant to be
mobile and they're also fragging HUGE.
Someone's going to notice when suddenly their access to the system is cut.
A LOT of someones. Like the entire company.

I guess the whole reason this has me upset is the fact that Shadowrunner as
suppose to be SUBTLE.

I've visted a Hewlett-Packard server site on a few occasions and unless the
company is a mom and pop corp (ie the mainframe and servers are their laptop
and desktop respectively), someone's going to notice them taking the
servers. You have people working at all hours of the day (and night) and
people on site and doing dial-up.
The whole point of a Shadowrun is the subtlety of it.

EMFA John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
"Don't put off tomorrow what you can do today, because it's just a matter of
time."
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 09:40:01 2002
>The group I'm currently running has finally got a decker. We're having
fun getting into >the new rules, and making sure everyone understands
enough that they can all participate >in some way so they don't get
bored while we do Matrix sequences during game time. >Unfortunately, I'm
seeing a disturbing trend in which the majority of the group doesn't
>want the decker to come with them on-site when they have to access an
independant system. >They instead have the habit of ripping out servers
and mainframes and carrying them out >(3 characters with 7+
strength) for the decker to go over later. Now where's the fun in >that?
;-) 
> 
>How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged
when someone >pulls the plug abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's
cubby hole? I want to have a >reason for them not to be ripping them out
every run, and I'm thinking that having a >chance to lose that
all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone come
>across similar circumstances?

LMAO....ok ok I'll admit we've done similar things...usually we just
went the route of having anyone with a datajack and a computer skill
plug into the thing directly and shut it down (i.e. "look for something
that looks like a windows icon and says off") once it was shut down we
just went in and tore out all of the memory chips and the hard drives
and took those with us and left a nice little WP grenade as a Christmas
present inside the case so when they'd open it to figure out why it
wasn't working they got a big surprise.

The answer I think you're looking for though is that if it's just
getting the power cut to it it CAN cause data loss just like a modern
computer can. The problem is that if you look at how rare it is for
your computer to lose things if you unplug it suddenly, and consider how
far advanced the computers of the time are supposed to be, do you really
think they'd lose anything? BUT here's the grand daddy of all
catches...YOU'RE THE GM, IT'S YOUR WORLD, WHAT YOU SAY GOES!
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 09:50:01 2002
<html>
&lt;Admin&gt; Lange, would you please change your emailer's settings so
that you are sending text only posts to ShadowRN?&nbsp; Thank you :)
&lt;/Admin&gt;<br><br>
At 09:30 AM 2/5/2002 -0400, LeBlanc, Lange wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2>Hey
all.
Tossing something to you all to get your ideas and possible
solutions.</font><br>
&nbsp;<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>The group I'm currently running has finally got
a decker. We're having fun getting into the new rules, and making sure
everyone understands enough that they can all participate in some way so
they don't get bored while we do Matrix sequences during game time.
Unfortunately, I'm seeing a disturbing trend in which the majority of the
group doesn't want the decker to come with them on-site when they have to
access an independant system. They instead have the habit of ripping out
servers and mainframes and carrying them out (3 characters with 7+
strength) for the decker to go over later. Now where's the fun in that?
;-) </font><br>
&nbsp;<br>
<font face="arial" size=2>How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes,
and what can be damaged when someone pulls the plug abruptly and rips the
bugger out of it's cubby hole? I want to have a reason for them not to be
ripping them out every run, and I'm thinking that having a chance to lose
that all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone
come across similar circumstances?</font></blockquote><br>
Well, for one thing, unplugging a mainframe (or probably any computer on
site for that matter) would probably set of every single alarm in the
building.&nbsp; Given the paranoia, and value of data in Shadowrun, I
would expect the security system to be set up to notice if someone tries
to steal a computer.&nbsp; If they keep a sharp eye on cyberdecks and
portable computers, you can bet they are going to take security
precautions with their mainframes.&nbsp; Even if they had already dealt
with on site security, off site security (or just plain old Lone Star)
would be on the way in short order.<br><br>
Also, they would have to get pretty lucky to get the computer
server/mainframe that has the information they need.&nbsp; I work for a
small company and we have six servers.&nbsp; If you were trying to get
our accounting information you would have a one in six chance of getting
the right server.&nbsp; Corporations have *huge* computer rooms filled
with stacks of servers, mainframes, and data storage machines.&nbsp;
Computer techs do not label these machines with anything that's even
remotely intuitive.&nbsp; How do the Shadowrunners know which one to
take?<br><br>
They are so much better off bringing in their decker to hack the system
and do a virtual search for the paydata they need :)<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
To Life,<br>
-Graht<br>
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II<br>
--</html>
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 10:20:05 2002
> Hmm.... I always figured that servers and mainframes are NOT meant to be
> mobile and they're also fragging HUGE.
> Someone's going to notice when suddenly their access to the system is cut.
> A LOT of someones. Like the entire company.


Someone else just said this too. However, I'm currently reading Matrix
and it states that the servers are NOT the huge mainframes that they once
were, that many Matrix servers are simply Bob's computer, or similiar
typical computer. Because the size is no longer needed for the massive
precessing power. Small computer in SR can do a WHOLE lot!

Meph
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 10:30:02 2002
<SNIP>
> Someone else just said this too. However, I'm currently
> reading Matrix
> and it states that the servers are NOT the huge mainframes
> that they once
> were, that many Matrix servers are simply Bob's computer, or similiar
> typical computer. Because the size is no longer needed for
> the massive
> precessing power. Small computer in SR can do a WHOLE lot!
>
> Meph


It's with these rulebook references that they were taking out
desktop-tower sized servers and fudging with them at home. But I like
the idea of security measures and PanicButton-type alarms connected to
them ...

"You spend 30 minutes bypassing electronic and physical security
measures, stealty as a shadowrun should be, and as you rip out the first
power cord, everything lights up like the 4th of July"

hehehe. I'll surprise them with this next time...
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (M.S. "Herc" Bobroff)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 10:30:04 2002
Umm, small computers today can act as servers ...

No need to wait until the mid 22nd Century for that to happen ...

-Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Meph" <meph@*********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Matrix servers?


> > Hmm.... I always figured that servers and mainframes are NOT
meant to be
> > mobile and they're also fragging HUGE.
> > Someone's going to notice when suddenly their access to the system
is cut.
> > A LOT of someones. Like the entire company.
>
>
> Someone else just said this too. However, I'm currently reading
Matrix
> and it states that the servers are NOT the huge mainframes that they
once
> were, that many Matrix servers are simply Bob's computer, or
similiar
> typical computer. Because the size is no longer needed for the
massive
> precessing power. Small computer in SR can do a WHOLE lot!
>
> Meph
>
>
>
>
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damian Sharp)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 10:30:09 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Meph wrote:

> > Hmm.... I always figured that servers and mainframes are NOT meant to be
> > mobile and they're also fragging HUGE.
> > Someone's going to notice when suddenly their access to the system is cut.
> > A LOT of someones. Like the entire company.
>
> Someone else just said this too. However, I'm currently reading Matrix
> and it states that the servers are NOT the huge mainframes that they once
> were, that many Matrix servers are simply Bob's computer, or similiar
> typical computer. Because the size is no longer needed for the massive
> precessing power. Small computer in SR can do a WHOLE lot!

True, but it just seems like a bad idea to have your mainframe be as
portable as a desktop. Bolt it to a wall, rig it to explode, weld it to a
metal frame that can't get through tthe front door, but don't make it easy
to pick up an walk out with.

Hmm. As an unrelated thought, you could probably put a mainframe in a
fairly cybered person. It'd be portable, pretty secure, and probably wired
to wipe the system or explode if the person flat-lined for longer than a
few minutes (or, in crueler corps, at all).

And, most of all, pretty much unexpected. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Graduate |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"An explosion doesn't usually display the best parenting skills"
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 11:00:01 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, LeBlanc, Lange wrote:

> They instead have the habit of ripping out servers and mainframes and
> carrying them out (3 characters with 7+ strength) for the decker to go
> over later. Now where's the fun in that? ;-)

That would be all well and good if the server were a single,
centralized entity. I get the impression from reading through the
Matrix-related stuff that computer systems are not so much single systems
as massively networked groups of computers. This is why a company may
only have one "host," but may have many individual computers. The term
"host" in my mind refers not to an individual computer but rather to the
overall networked environment that those computers collectively comprise.
That's really not that big a stretch. I was involved in building
a Beowulf cluster for work once. Basically, it's a bunch of off-the-shelf
PC's with a few bits of specialized software that allow it to run as
though it were many processors within the same computer. If you have
easily parallelizable problems, this kind of approach is really useful
(and is in fact the basis for such projects as SETI@****). For the
cluster we built, all of the machines were dedicated compute nodes
(meaning they had no individual users or consoles), but they could just as
easily have been regular desktop machines. This would give people the
ability to tap into all of the computational power sitting (largely
unused) on other people's desktops.
The only thing missing from being able to do the kind of
fully parallelized network architecture found in Shadowrun is for someone
to come up with a good memory management scheme, by which data could be
stored anywhere in the network and be accessed transparently by the user.
the AFS paradigm comes pretty close in the UNIX world.

If this is truly the way that computers work in the Shadowrun
universe (and it is in my campaign), it provides the answer to your
question: you can't just steal a single computer, because the data you're
looking for may not actually be on it. It is entirely likely that pieces
of the data are scattered around among different computers, much like data
is scattered around on random sectors on a hard drive. And the only way
to tell which machine(s) the data resides on is to hack the system and
follow the query trail (i.e. do exactly what it is that they're trying to
avoid).

Anyway, this is just one interpretation of "how computers work in
SR." Whatever you decide to do, reward your players for being crafty (and
stealing a server is marginally crafty), but punish them for getting
complacent (perhaps have a run take place where the "server" is actually a
massive farm of high-end computers sharing processors and/or memory). Or,
as someone else suggested, have the server or mainframe become damaged
during the extraction process; all that work for nothing. Or even have
the mainframe or server check to see if it's hooked to the company's
network when it boots up. Perhaps it queries some other part of the
network for an encrypted boot key - if it doesn't get it, it doesn't boot,
period.
Like anything else, it's your game. Make it challenging for your
PCs.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@*********.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 11:00:04 2002
> True, but it just seems like a bad idea to have your mainframe be as
> portable as a desktop. Bolt it to a wall, rig it to explode, weld it to a
> metal frame that can't get through tthe front door, but don't make it easy
> to pick up an walk out with.
>

Yeah but carting around a tower PC mainframe is easily noticeable...it's not
like you can tuck it under your armored vest and walk out with it, someone
will see an unknown person walking off with a piece of their computer gear
in your arms. They will ask questions, they will demand to see paperwork and
forms.

Yes unlike a mainframe of old you don't need a forklift or crane to get it
out of the building but nor can you just wander off with it. Companies
aren't that completely retarded even in today's standards.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 11:15:01 2002
Damian Sharp writes:

> True, but it just seems like a bad idea to have your mainframe be as
> portable as a desktop. Bolt it to a wall, rig it to explode, weld it to a
> metal frame that can't get through tthe front door, but don't make it easy
> to pick up an walk out with.

Like, say, house it in a secure room in a secure building in a secure
compound? <cheesy grin> I assume that the PCs in question already got past
the triple secure problem. Thus, if they can pull it off and walk back out
with the _right_ machine, then I'd probably allow them to do it.

Of course, I (like Marc) tend to think that SR era computers are clusters,
rather than single monolithic mainframes (various information in different
SR books supports this idea, too, BTW). So then, of course, the problem
becomes finding the correct computer. And that's if there is even "the"
correct computer, rather than "12" correct computers...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 11:15:05 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:58:38 -0800
Valeu John EMFA <ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil> wrote:
{snip}
> I guess the whole reason this has me upset is the fact that
> Shadowrunner as
> suppose to be SUBTLE.
>
> I've visted a Hewlett-Packard server site on a few occasions and
> unless the
> company is a mom and pop corp (ie the mainframe and servers are their
> laptop
> and desktop respectively), someone's going to notice them taking the
> servers. You have people working at all hours of the day (and night)
> and
> > EMFA John Valeu
> -AKA- TimeKeeper
>
Well, my canny players tend to just take the hard drive, and it's
difficult to argue that that's too big for a door. What about gauss
coils around important security chokepoints, though?
--Anders
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Joshua Mun)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 11:20:01 2002
Meph wrote:
>
> > Hmm.... I always figured that servers and mainframes are NOT meant to be
> > mobile and they're also fragging HUGE.
> > Someone's going to notice when suddenly their access to the system is cut.
> > A LOT of someones. Like the entire company.
>
> Someone else just said this too. However, I'm currently reading Matrix
> and it states that the servers are NOT the huge mainframes that they once
> were, that many Matrix servers are simply Bob's computer, or similiar
> typical computer. Because the size is no longer needed for the massive
> precessing power. Small computer in SR can do a WHOLE lot!
>
> Meph

I still like the multiple servers idea. The trend in business computers
today is a distributed system. This means that a relatively small corp
could have as many as 20 to 30 servers. the chances that the team grabs
the the correct one. If there were for some reason only one server.
everybody and his brother would know when the grab it. An other idea is
that there is no reason that the processor and the data storage need to
be in even the same room. An other thing to remember is that not
everybody is going to have the latest in computer technology. This corp
could have an older model which is very large. Corps tend to work on
the principle "If it ain't broken don't fix it" thus if the computer is
still functional they will not replace it. As GM you can do anything.
--
--------------------
"...Capitalist success [in the new information economy] is possible only
as long as most of the researchers remain 'communists'."
- Dr. Pekka Himanen (The Hacker Ethic)

"Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life."
- Bertolt Brecht
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 11:35:02 2002
On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 07:52:42 -0700
Graht <davidb@****.imcprint.com> wrote:

And don't forger off-site server farms. Hundreds of miles away, in
unmarked buildings.
--Anders
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 12:10:03 2002
Lange,

> How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged
> when someone pulls the plug abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's
> cubby hole? I want to have a reason for them not to be ripping them out
> every run, and I'm thinking that having a chance to lose that
> all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone come
> across similar circumstances?


Since I've started GMing decking in the 3rd edition, I tend to structure
my runs so that they pretty well have to taken the decker in with them
to access the information locally. That way the decker gets to have a
bit of fun, too!

A couple of people have said some important things about computer
security. Allow me to input some of my own philosophies.

You have two types of networks: transport networks and content networks.

Transpost networks exist only to carry data from content network to
content network. (In this capacity a content network could be your ISP
in this example.) They should be big, dumb, and fast, which is to say
they are built to carry vast amounts of data as close to the speed of
light as possible. To do this, it can't waste alot of time thinking
about whether traffic is secure. If they satisfy the most vague
requirements, it gets passed.

Content networks will likely have ALOT of security at the edge, and then
let trusted (ie internal traffic) travel freely and quickly so as not to
tie up costly network resources. The edge will be secured by some kind
of firewall and access-list combination which can filter out traffic
based on criterion such as where it came from, where it's going, and
what kind of traffic is it? For example, you wouldn't want to let
anyone from outside your network logon to your payroll database.

NB. Keep in mind these networks will have security mosaics depending on
the importance of the sub-network. For example, The Magic R&D
department will have it's own secure network you would have to penetrate.

Once you've found the server you're looking for, it too will have some
sort of security such as TCP wrappers (which allow/deny traffic to
specific services on the computer), application gates, and may even have
it's security/logon database somewhere else, so you can't just crack the
password file. Happily you can invent 2060 infosec policies.


Once you're in, as couple of people have said, people notice these
things. My answer is, you still have several minutes before the decker
calls out the corp HRT on you. Computers very often go down, it's in
the nature of computers to crash. I'm sure this is equally true in
2060. Before the decker decides his corp has been runned, he'll try to
work his way down the stack. Is it a network protocol, is a network
physical, is it kernal, is it some other physical, etc. He'll problably
even try to power cycle the thing from remote before he physically walks
down stairs to find an empty shelf in the rack.

Important thing, Operating Systems like being shutdown gracefully. If
you've got a windows box, you've seen it do it's checkdisk thing. If
you have UNIX experience you know you have to fsck the filesystem before
you come back up.

Another thing you need to remember about carrying out mainframes and
stuff. Generally these boxes are kept in fire-proof, bomb-proof,
secure, CCTVed facilities. There will be beautiful cameras keeping an
eye on you, and you'ld have to bring your decker along to circumvent
them properly anyhow!

While it's true that many computers networks are engineered in clusters
these days for a variety of reasons, these are mostly due for
redundancy. If your primary electronic transaction server goes down,
then service will converge on a backup box in a completely different
location. So, information will *most likley* be stored in multiple
places, unless it's so top secret corps would kill to keep it that way.

If you really really don't want them to use it, you can say the
hardwarde architecture is proprietary and won't work if you pull it out.
You can say stuff like, the quantum encryption which is hardcoded
into the I/O bus is so amazing, there's no way I could number crunch the
correct cryptographic algorithm would take years with my equipment!

Since I've started GMing decking in the 3rd edition, I tend to structure
my runs so that they pretty well have to taken the decker in with them
to access the information locally. That way the decker gets to have a
bit of fun, too!

Sorry that was so long. Infosec is far too complicated to be reduced
down to 5-6 paragraphs!

Good luck trying to get them to bring your decker along.

Xian.
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 12:25:01 2002
"LeBlanc, Lange" wrote:

><SNIP>
>> Someone else just said this too. However, I'm currently
>> reading Matrix
>> and it states that the servers are NOT the huge mainframes
>> that they once
>> were, that many Matrix servers are simply Bob's computer, or similiar
>> typical computer. Because the size is no longer needed for
>> the massive
>> precessing power. Small computer in SR can do a WHOLE lot!
>>
>> Meph
>
>
>It's with these rulebook references that they were taking out
>desktop-tower sized servers and fudging with them at home. But I like
>the idea of security measures and PanicButton-type alarms connected to
>them ...
>
>"You spend 30 minutes bypassing electronic and physical security
>measures, stealty as a shadowrun should be, and as you rip out the first
>power cord, everything lights up like the 4th of July"
>
>hehehe. I'll surprise them with this next time...
>

As I see it there should be one very easy solution that prevents even bothering with that.
If it's an expensive server shouldn't it be behind an expensive locked door which security
passes by every minute or so. Without any real need for physical access by a company, a
host can be put behind irritatingly strong physical defenses. I don't know what kind of
campaign you're running, but I would say a mom & pop company might put their server
behind a rating 6-10 maglock at least (not easy to get past if you read the maglock rules)
and even so that's just a mom & pop corp. Just figure orders of magnitude, you spend
$2000 on a computer now, if you're in a high risk area would you be willing to spend $20
to guarantee it's safety? I'll assume yes, now scale up, Corp A spends $1M on a server
(round numbers are nice) then they might be willing to spend $10k or more if they're
really paranoid. I don't have a book with me right now, but I suspect 10k will buy a lot.

-George Waksman
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 12:25:04 2002
>From: Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com>
>To: "Dumpshock mailing list (E-mail)" <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: Re: Matrix servers?
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>
>
>
>On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, LeBlanc, Lange wrote:
>
> > They instead have the habit of ripping out servers and mainframes > >
>carrying them out (3 characters with 7+ strength) for the decker to go
> > over later. Now where's the fun in that? ;-)
>
> That would be all well and good if the server were a single,
>centralized entity. I get the impression from reading through the
>Matrix-related stuff that computer systems are not so much single systems
>as massively networked groups of computers.

Oh, I totally forgot. Something like RAID level 5? What it does (if I'm not
slaughtering it. I hope my prof doesn't read this list) is distribute the
data over multiple hard drives and index the info. If one hard drive dies or
is lost, the index can rebuild the info. Of course, since the data is over N
drives, you do need N-1 drives to rebuild the info, and one drive is almost
useless. The drives could all be in different computers, or with the matrix,
different buildings.

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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 12:35:00 2002
"Anders Swenson" wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:58:38 -0800
> Valeu John EMFA <ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil> wrote:
>{snip}
>> I guess the whole reason this has me upset is the fact that
>> Shadowrunner as
>> suppose to be SUBTLE.
>>
>> I've visted a Hewlett-Packard server site on a few occasions and
>> unless the
>> company is a mom and pop corp (ie the mainframe and servers are their
>> laptop
>> and desktop respectively), someone's going to notice them taking the
>> servers. You have people working at all hours of the day (and night)
>> and
>> > EMFA John Valeu
>> -AKA- TimeKeeper
>>
>Well, my canny players tend to just take the hard drive, and it's
> difficult to argue that that's too big for a door. What about gauss
> coils around important security chokepoints, though?
>--Anders
>
>

Funny thing about optical storage, it doesn't necessarily need to be metallic, or for that
matter, magnetic. But I will point out that the removal of a hard drive is not an easy
task (computer test with high TN, tool requirements, and base time).

-George Waksman
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 12:40:01 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Dan Turek wrote:

> Oh, I totally forgot. Something like RAID level 5? What it does (if I'm not
> slaughtering it. I hope my prof doesn't read this list) is distribute the
> data over multiple hard drives and index the info. If one hard drive dies or
> is lost, the index can rebuild the info. Of course, since the data is over N
> drives, you do need N-1 drives to rebuild the info, and one drive is almost
> useless. The drives could all be in different computers, or with the matrix,
> different buildings.

RAID would work, but realistically you'd probably want to go with
a filesystem that wasn't quite so distributed. Rather than splitting up
individual files and whatnot, write each complete file to a spot on the
network and then index its location in a master file server. As indicated
previously, AFS is probably a better model for an effective use of this
technology. The chances that something goes wrong with more than one
drive makes the RAID concept a little dicey, especially in an environment
with hundreds or thousands of computers.

Marc
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 12:45:01 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, George S Waksman wrote:

> But I will point out that the removal of a hard drive is not an easy
> task (computer test with high TN, tool requirements, and base time).

That depends on the design of the system. I've worked with
servers that have removable (and in some cases hot-swappable) drive bays.
Removing these drives requires a yank and a handy bag to stash them in.
Granted, not all systems are designed this way, and getting an internal
drive out of a rack-mounted server can be a time consuming endeavor. But
it's still an easy task. You may have to remove a lot of them, but you
are just removing screws, after all. I've never seen a (modern) computer
where hard drive removal was any more involved than that.

Marc
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 12:50:01 2002
> Funny thing about optical storage, it doesn't necessarily need to be
> metallic, or for that matter, magnetic. But I will point out that the
> removal of a hard drive is not an easy task (computer test with high
TN,
> tool requirements, and base time).

Oh please lord tell me you're implying that is what it would be with the
SR technology...today....ANYONE with at least a skill of 1 in computers
would be able to remove a hard drive, there's nothing difficult about
it, it takes a REGULAR Phillips screwdriver, and about 2 minutes if
you're taking your time making sure you don't screw anything else
up!...I can have a whole computer put together or tore apart in 8
minutes so I'd hope that someone that LIVES their lives for computers
can do it at least as fast....
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 13:35:01 2002
> Oh please lord tell me you're implying that is what it would be with
the
> SR technology...today....ANYONE with at least a skill of 1 in
computers
> would be able to remove a hard drive, there's nothing difficult about
> it, it takes a REGULAR Phillips screwdriver, and about 2 minutes if
> you're taking your time making sure you don't screw anything else
> up!...I can have a whole computer put together or tore apart in 8
> minutes so I'd hope that someone that LIVES their lives for computers
> can do it at least as fast....

oh yeah....I'll apologize if I come across a bit harsh on this one, it
wasn't intended to be a flame by any stretch of the mind, only to make
the point that it's not hard at all to accomplish the task of ripping a
hard drive out of a computer without hurting it
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 13:40:01 2002
At 2/5/02 08:45 AM, you wrote:
> >How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged
>when someone >pulls the plug abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's
>cubby hole? I want to have a >reason for them not to be ripping them out
>every run, and I'm thinking that having a >chance to lose that
>all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone come
> >across similar circumstances?
><snip>
>The answer I think you're looking for though is that if it's just
>getting the power cut to it it CAN cause data loss just like a modern
>computer can. The problem is that if you look at how rare it is for
>your computer to lose things if you unplug it suddenly, and consider how
>far advanced the computers of the time are supposed to be, do you really
>think they'd lose anything? BUT here's the grand daddy of all
>catches...YOU'RE THE GM, IT'S YOUR WORLD, WHAT YOU SAY GOES!

Well, to make this just a tad more specific unless it has a journalling
filesystem you're looking at a loss of quite a bit of data along with the
possibility that any data that has been saved is now corrupt. I'd say a
roll of 1 on 1d6 gives you corrupted data another 1 and it's the data you
were looking for, a 2 and it's important systems data. Make a
computer(software) roll to see what they can extract or fix or if the
damage is severe enough make them assemble a program to do just that (i.e.
fsck,scandisk, etc.).

Belgand
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 13:50:00 2002
>From: "LeBlanc, Lange" <Lange@***.ca>

>Hey all. Tossing something to you all to get your ideas and possible
>solutions.
>The group I'm currently running has finally got a decker. We're having
>fun getting into the new rules, and making sure everyone understands
>enough that they can all participate in some way so they don't get >bored
>while we do Matrix sequences during game time. Unfortunately, I'm >seeing
>a disturbing trend in which the majority of the group doesn't want the
>decker to come with them on-site when they have to access an >independant
>system. They instead have the habit of ripping out servers and
>mainframes and carrying them out (3 characters with 7+ strength) for >the
>decker to go over later. Now where's the fun in that?

>How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged
>when someone pulls the plug abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's
>cubby hole? I want to have a reason for them not to be ripping them out
>every run, and I'm thinking that having a chance to lose that
>all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone come
>across similar circumstances?

ROFL...oh my! I thought I was all alone. Teach me to think only my players
were this blatant.

Okay. Present day server rooms are usually locked down with a vengeance
after hours. I am talking seperate alarms if anyone even opens the room. A
big UPS makes sure power outage/flucuation is irrelevant. Mainframes are
even more protected. A really sensitive mainframe like the one you
descibed, that the corp does not have connected to the matrix at all, would
have even more paranoid security between it and the rest of the building.
The "black box" system in Mission Impossible was an example of this paranoia
(a campy example, but hey, it's Hollywood, makers of "movie OS" *shrug*
).
Extrapolating to 2060+, even allowing for lots of lost tech in the aftermath
of '29. The mainframe is going to be a royal pain to get at, and waltzing
out with it in one piece harder still. I mean, the troll sammie has his
hands full of something he does not want dropped, shot, or blown up, yes?
;) That will make dodging, running, and such pretty tough. One turn
against a semi-auto shotgun and the server is hosed. (Give the troll some
cover or armor bonuses though, just to rub it in) Remember, computers in SR
do not have magnetic harddrives that you can grab bit images from later. It
is all plastic optical chips with neat chemical storage medium. (very
sensitive to external heat maybe?...watch out with that fireball!) In
addition, the mainframe is going to have a built in UPS, so they cannot turn
it off by unplugging it. This means that a few smartframes can be busy
deleting data, altering data, and adding data all the time they are carrying
it home. The mainframe will be full of scrambled or encrypted information,
some of it useless, some of it misleading, and some of it downright
dangerous.
Next time they yank a mainframe, let them. Give them all the info on
it...with just enough effort and decryption necessary to legitimize it in
their minds. Sit back and watch the fun. Because you have just decided
every major plot for the next year of game sessions. Consider. A quarter
of the info is now wrong. If they sell it, the buyer is going to be very
angry. If they make plans based on it...oops. Another quarter of it is
wrong and also loaded with "flares". The corp will watch for actions on the
street that would be triggered by info that only existed on that "black
box". Show up to sell Mr. Johnson the new formula for HMHVV-inducing
aerosol grenades, to find that he works for the injured party. Ow! A third
quarter of the info is altered, designed to shake things up. Doctored info
about themselves and competitors, altered earning statements, "proof" of
something untrue, etc. (read: adventure hooks). The last quarter is stuff
they wanted back intact. The juicy R&D data and such. The smartframe just
encrypted it with a nasty numeric cypher AND a preset word-association
cypher. This section can be misleading and deadly. The corp wants it back.
And the runners don't really know what they have. But it is real, hard
data. Valuable and potentially world shaking. Mmmm....fun.

Enjoy,
Kori

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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 13:50:04 2002
At 11:30 AM 2/5/2002 -0400, LeBlanc, Lange wrote:
><SNIP>
> > Someone else just said this too. However, I'm currently
> > reading Matrix
> > and it states that the servers are NOT the huge mainframes
> > that they once
> > were, that many Matrix servers are simply Bob's computer, or similiar
> > typical computer. Because the size is no longer needed for
> > the massive
> > precessing power. Small computer in SR can do a WHOLE lot!
> >
> > Meph
>
>
>It's with these rulebook references that they were taking out
>desktop-tower sized servers and fudging with them at home. But I like
>the idea of security measures and PanicButton-type alarms connected to
>them ...
>
>"You spend 30 minutes bypassing electronic and physical security
>measures, stealty as a shadowrun should be, and as you rip out the first
>power cord, everything lights up like the 4th of July"

if it's a server that is actually being used, the likelihood of it being
monitored in some sort of Network Operations Centre is pretty much
guaranteed, and the second the services it was providing go down it will be
noticed.
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 13:50:10 2002
> Well, to make this just a tad more specific unless it has a
journalling
> filesystem you're looking at a loss of quite a bit of data along with
the
> possibility that any data that has been saved is now corrupt. I'd say
a
> roll of 1 on 1d6 gives you corrupted data another 1 and it's the data
you
> were looking for, a 2 and it's important systems data. Make a
> computer(software) roll to see what they can extract or fix or if the
> damage is severe enough make them assemble a program to do just that
(i.e.
> fsck,scandisk, etc.).
>
> Belgand

hmm.....seems like he's got a good thought....(not being a smartass
now...)
What operating systems NOW don't do your journaling filesystem? Mac
does, Windows does as long as you let it....BeOS does as far as I have
found....any others I missed?
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 13:50:16 2002
At 08:19 AM 2/5/2002 -0800, Anders Swenson wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:58:38 -0800
>Well, my canny players tend to just take the hard drive, and it's
> difficult to argue that that's too big for a door. What about gauss
> coils around important security chokepoints, though?

wouldn't it be less bother to just break into the remote backup location,
instead of the main home?
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 13:55:01 2002
"Derek Hyde" wrote:

>> Funny thing about optical storage, it doesn't necessarily need to be
>> metallic, or for that matter, magnetic. But I will point out that the
>> removal of a hard drive is not an easy task (computer test with high
>TN,
>> tool requirements, and base time).
>
>Oh please lord tell me you're implying that is what it would be with the
>SR technology...today....ANYONE with at least a skill of 1 in computers
>would be able to remove a hard drive, there's nothing difficult about
>it, it takes a REGULAR Phillips screwdriver, and about 2 minutes if
>you're taking your time making sure you don't screw anything else
>up!...I can have a whole computer put together or tore apart in 8
>minutes so I'd hope that someone that LIVES their lives for computers
>can do it at least as fast....
>
>

yeah, which is why I figure computer tech has gotten shit loads more complicated, not to
mention right now things are on PCI cards not everything on an OMC (doesn't make sense,
but hey).

-George Waksman
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 14:00:01 2002
Marc Renouf wrote:

>
>
>On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, George S Waksman wrote:
>
>> But I will point out that the removal of a hard drive is not an easy
>> task (computer test with high TN, tool requirements, and base time).
>
> That depends on the design of the system. I've worked with
>servers that have removable (and in some cases hot-swappable) drive bays.
>Removing these drives requires a yank and a handy bag to stash them in.
>Granted, not all systems are designed this way, and getting an internal
>drive out of a rack-mounted server can be a time consuming endeavor. But
>it's still an easy task. You may have to remove a lot of them, but you
>are just removing screws, after all. I've never seen a (modern) computer
>where hard drive removal was any more involved than that.
>
>Marc
>
>
>

Yeah, and I've made thermite, but the target number to do so in shadowrun is pretty damn
high for that too.

-George Waksman
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 14:00:05 2002
> yeah, which is why I figure computer tech has gotten shit loads more
> complicated, not to mention right now things are on PCI cards not
> everything on an OMC (doesn't make sense, but hey).
>
> -George Waksman
good thought but take this into consideration....the most powerful
computer in the books is the excalibur....with the build your own rules
in the new matrix book you can build something about twice as powerful
for about the same 1.5Mil...that isn't built as one solid chip...they're
component systems....I would assume that it's how they'd make a
mainframe so that if one part of the system was damaged they could
replace the one chip instead of the whole system
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Joshua Mun)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 15:40:00 2002
>
> Funny thing about optical storage, it doesn't necessarily need to be metallic, or for
that matter, magnetic. But I will point out that the removal of a hard drive is not an
easy task (computer test with high TN, tool requirements, and base time).
>
> -George Waksman

actually removing a hard drive is a relatively easy thing to do. any
person with an average computer skill and an electronics kit should be
able to do it.
--
--------------------
"...Capitalist success [in the new information economy] is possible only
as long as most of the researchers remain 'communists'."
- Dr. Pekka Himanen (The Hacker Ethic)

"Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life."
- Bertolt Brecht
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 17:40:05 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:30:04 -0400
"LeBlanc, Lange" <Lange@***.ca> wrote:

> How much do we know about Shadowrun mainframes, and what can be damaged
> when someone pulls the plug abruptly and rips the bugger out of it's
> cubby hole?

More or less what happens to personal computers today, but in a
much grander scale. If you just stick your finger in your "power" button
right now, your computer is going to turn off in the middle of it's
activity, causing a whole slew of small file, memory and disk errors.

Pulling the plug on a mainframe could have much worse
consequences. These things usually aren't designed to shut down on a
regular basis, and even when they do so because of a serious decker
intrusion, they take several turns. Chances are something important will
be damaged when the computer is shut off suddenly, and this goes double
for the rough treatment it probably receives during transportation.

And ripping a mainframe off probably makes a lot of noise, right?
Have a detachment of sec-guards come running and "accidentally" shoot the
thing :).

>I want to have a reason for them not to be ripping them out
> every run, and I'm thinking that having a chance to lose that
> all-important information they came for is reason enough. Anyone come
> across similar circumstances?
>

Well, my runners usually don't get to see the servers they
invade. The closer they get to them is an illegal jackpoint on the other
side of the city. The actual physical machines tend to be a bit too well
protected.


--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 18:45:00 2002
>actually removing a hard drive is a relatively easy thing to do. any
>person with an average computer skill and an electronics kit should be
>able to do it.
>

nitpick: computer B/R

I can use a computer, but unless the hard drive is the only thing inside the
box, I wouldn't know what to remove.

Jane


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Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 19:40:01 2002
>From: "LeBlanc, Lange" <Lange@***.ca>

>Hey all. Tossing something to you all to get your ideas and possible
>solutions.
>
>The group I'm currently running has finally got a decker. We're having
>fun getting into the new rules, and making sure everyone understands
>enough that they can all participate in some way so they don't get bored
>while we do Matrix sequences during game time. Unfortunately, I'm seeing
>a disturbing trend in which the majority of the group doesn't want the
>decker to come with them on-site when they have to access an independant
>system. They instead have the habit of ripping out servers and
>mainframes and carrying them out (3 characters with 7+ strength) for the
>decker to go over later. Now where's the fun in that? ;-)
>


Sometimes it might be easier to get the decker into a position where he can
have a couple of minutes access via a jackpoint or workstation than it would
be to get to the room where the mainframe is.

Jane


_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 19:45:01 2002
> nitpick: computer B/R
>
> I can use a computer, but unless the hard drive is the only thing
inside
> the
> box, I wouldn't know what to remove.
>
> Jane

True BUT you can use something known as logic.....if you pull the case
open, and you can see the CD drive is the first thing there cause you
can see it from the front, you can see the floppy is where it's at, then
the other obvious choice would be a hard drive, you know what a hard
drive does and vaguely what they look like so you could make an educated
assumption...
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 19:50:05 2002
> True BUT you can use something known as logic.....if you pull the case
> open, and you can see the CD drive is the first thing there cause you
> can see it from the front, you can see the floppy is where it's at, then
> the other obvious choice would be a hard drive, you know what a hard
> drive does and vaguely what they look like so you could make an educated
> assumption...
>

I was gonna suggest the same thing then I remember technician funnies. The
coffee cup holder, using the mouse for a foot pedal, complaints of no
picture...because they never turned the monitor on...

Logic is all well and good til it meets the computer illiterate...that's
when all hell breaks loose and the technicians go rolling down the aisle in
laughter.
Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 20:00:01 2002
>From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>

> >
> > I can use a computer, but unless the hard drive is the only thing
>inside
> > the
> > box, I wouldn't know what to remove.
> >
> > Jane
>
>True BUT you can use something known as logic.....if you pull the case
>open, and you can see the CD drive is the first thing there cause you
>can see it from the front, you can see the floppy is where it's at, then
>the other obvious choice would be a hard drive,

did I look in the right place to start with (e.g. not in the monitor)?

>you know what a hard drive does
nope
>and vaguely what they look like
nope
>
so you could make an educated
>assumption...

yes, I could default to my Computer skill, or Intelligence. The trivial task
just went to either average or difficult.

Jane


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Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 20:10:01 2002
> I was gonna suggest the same thing then I remember technician funnies.
The
> coffee cup holder, using the mouse for a foot pedal, complaints of no
> picture...because they never turned the monitor on...
>
> Logic is all well and good til it meets the computer
illiterate...that's
> when all hell breaks loose and the technicians go rolling down the
aisle
> in
> laughter.
>
ahh but that's SO true!
Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 20:10:05 2002
At 09:26 PM 2/5/2002 -03-30, Jonathan wrote:
>I was gonna suggest the same thing then I remember technician funnies. The
>coffee cup holder, using the mouse for a foot pedal, complaints of no
>picture...because they never turned the monitor on...
>
>Logic is all well and good til it meets the computer illiterate...that's
>when all hell breaks loose and the technicians go rolling down the aisle in
>laughter.

the main reason for the stupidity is fear, I think.
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 20:20:02 2002
> the main reason for the stupidity is fear, I think.

Nah just lack of experience. Fear is thinking you have any hope of cracking
a circuit board while trying to install it.
Message no. 42
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 20:25:05 2002
At 09:58 PM 2/5/2002 -03-30, Jonathan wrote:
> > the main reason for the stupidity is fear, I think.
>
>Nah just lack of experience. Fear is thinking you have any hope of cracking
>a circuit board while trying to install it.

Fear also. Fear that they'll break something if they mistype
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 43
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 20:50:01 2002
> True, but it just seems like a bad idea to have your mainframe be as
> portable as a desktop. Bolt it to a wall, rig it to explode, weld it to a
> metal frame that can't get through tthe front door, but don't make it easy
> to pick up an walk out with.


Ohh, don;t get me wrong...I totally agree. I would have my games
computers seriously guarded and/or protected any way they can be!

Meph
Message no. 44
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 20:55:01 2002
> I still like the multiple servers idea. The trend in business computers
> today is a distributed system. This means that a relatively small corp
> could have as many as 20 to 30 servers. the chances that the team grabs
> the the correct one. If there were for some reason only one server.
> everybody and his brother would know when the grab it. An other idea is
> that there is no reason that the processor and the data storage need to
> be in even the same room. An other thing to remember is that not
> everybody is going to have the latest in computer technology. This corp
> could have an older model which is very large. Corps tend to work on
> the principle "If it ain't broken don't fix it" thus if the computer is
> still functional they will not replace it. As GM you can do anything.


I have to agree. Most comp places I know of, don't have a "mainframe"
per se...but a networked series of the computers all of which have relevant
data on it, but none of which would be easily kept in a single computer.

Meph
Message no. 45
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 22:45:01 2002
> > Funny thing about optical storage, it doesn't
necessarily need to be metallic, or for that matter,
magnetic. But I will point out that the removal of a
hard drive is not an easy task (computer test with
high TN, tool requirements, and base time).
>
> Oh please lord tell me you're implying that is what
it would be with the SR technology...today....ANYONE
with at least a skill of 1 in computers would be able
to remove a hard drive, there's nothing difficult
about it, it takes a REGULAR Phillips screwdriver, and
about 2 minutes if you're taking your time making sure
you don't screw anything else up!...I can have a whole
computer put together or tore apart in 8 minutes so
I'd hope that someone that LIVES their lives for
computers can do it at least as fast....

Okay, so it's easy to get the hard drive out. What
about having something built into the hardware of the
drive, though, that will only allow it to be accessed
from certain authorised computers? Something in the
vein of the protection that stops commercial CDs from
being copied? (I say vein because I know the mechanism
would be different, but that's a similar effect to
what I'm thinking.) Instead of just preventing access,
though, if the hard drive detects it's being accessed
by an unauthorised system, it melts down (and slags
the computer it's hooked up to, if you're feeling
really nasty). It'd be difficult to get around, though
not impossible, but the first time you pull it, it'll
certainly be a surprise.

Possible?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 46
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 22:50:02 2002
> True BUT you can use something known as logic.....if you pull the case
> open, and you can see the CD drive is the first thing there cause you
> can see it from the front, you can see the floppy is where it's at, then
> the other obvious choice would be a hard drive, you know what a hard
> drive does and vaguely what they look like so you could make an educated
> assumption...
>

That's not necessarily the case, though. I have two hard drives in my
computer. One of those is in the front, along with the two CD drives and
the floppy drive. However, the other is in an entirely different area of
the tower, behind everything, next to the power supply. Assumning that the
computer that the runners was breaking into the same way, what's to say that
they'd know that the hard drive that they have to take is the one in the
back? If they don't have B/R, they might not even realize that the second
HD even exists.
Message no. 47
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 23:00:04 2002
> Okay, so it's easy to get the hard drive out. What
> about having something built into the hardware of the
> drive, though, that will only allow it to be accessed
> from certain authorised computers? Something in the
> vein of the protection that stops commercial CDs from
> being copied? (I say vein because I know the mechanism
> would be different, but that's a similar effect to
> what I'm thinking.) Instead of just preventing access,
> though, if the hard drive detects it's being accessed
> by an unauthorised system, it melts down (and slags
> the computer it's hooked up to, if you're feeling
> really nasty). It'd be difficult to get around, though
> not impossible, but the first time you pull it, it'll
> certainly be a surprise.
>
> Possible?

Possible......maybe....advanced tech I'll say sure...by the way the
"vein" you're referring to is called sub channel data, the only time
it's referenced is when you're running an application from it, HOWEVER
it is easy to obtain a "helper" program that will allow a copied version
of the CD to still operate as if normal because it will feed the missing
sub channel data to the program, which is of course assuming that you're
not lucky enough to have a copy made from a high quality CD Burner such
as a plextor or any of the others that are capable of reading and
writing the sub channel data specifically in addition to all of the rest
of the data on the CD...(there are only 2 others in addition to the
plextor burners that I'm aware of that are capable of this so if you
were talking about this in game you could say that it requires a high
rating device to copy it however the melting down thing would almost
have to be somewhat like the omega wiring that is mentioned in one of
the books, it'd have to be so high end that a regular computer or
cyberdeck couldn't interface the drive without it melting the circuits
because of the immense amount of data being forced through at an insane
rate of speed (many many times the max I/O speed of the deck or
computer)
Message no. 48
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 23:05:02 2002
> That's not necessarily the case, though. I have two hard drives in my
> computer. One of those is in the front, along with the two CD drives
and
> the floppy drive. However, the other is in an entirely different area
of
> the tower, behind everything, next to the power supply. Assumning
that
> the
> computer that the runners was breaking into the same way, what's to
say
> that
> they'd know that the hard drive that they have to take is the one in
the
> back? If they don't have B/R, they might not even realize that the
second
> HD even exists.
>
[OT] what the heck kind of case is that? I've been building computers
from scratch as a business for the last 2 years and have never heard of
anyone putting a HD slot back by the power supply....they're placed away
from it so that they can shed heat and the fan by the supply can create
a nice airflow to keep everything cool......if you put something back
there you'd mess up that airflow I'd think....


Derek
Message no. 49
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Tue Feb 5 23:20:01 2002
> [OT] what the heck kind of case is that? I've been building computers
> from scratch as a business for the last 2 years and have never heard of
> anyone putting a HD slot back by the power supply....they're placed away
> from it so that they can shed heat and the fan by the supply can create
> a nice airflow to keep everything cool......if you put something back
> there you'd mess up that airflow I'd think....

Actually, thinking about the layout, it's actually above and slightly to the
right of the power supply. However, it still doesn't make much sense. But
this is Compaq, so...
Message no. 50
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 05:45:01 2002
According to Jonathan, on Tue, 05 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Yeah but carting around a tower PC mainframe is easily noticeable...it's
> not like you can tuck it under your armored vest and walk out with it,
> someone will see an unknown person walking off with a piece of their
> computer gear in your arms.

Which is a good reason to make the thing bigger than necessary, even if
much of its internal space is simply empty because the components are small
enough. Better make those hard to remove then, though, else someone will
get the bright idea of opening it up and taking only the important parts :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 51
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 09:10:01 2002
"Derek Hyde" wrote:

>[OT] what the heck kind of case is that? I've been building computers
>from scratch as a business for the last 2 years and have never heard of
>anyone putting a HD slot back by the power supply....they're placed away
>from it so that they can shed heat and the fan by the supply can create
>a nice airflow to keep everything cool......if you put something back
>there you'd mess up that airflow I'd think....
>
>
>Derek
>
>

I too have been building computers for a while (closer to 6 or 10 years for me) and I have
seen a bunch like this. They're not as common as the type that places the hard drive at
the front but it's a fairly common practice to make the computer shorter (Baby-ATs do it a
lot) and the way I've seen it done wouldn't interfere with airflow as power supply fans
point down usually and the hard drive is on the side.

As a slight aside on the subject of hard drive removal. The first computer I ever worked
on was a very nice Dell 286 my family got about 10-12 years ago and removing the hard
drive or either of the disk drives from that machine was the kind of task which took at
least 30 minutes 6 years ago and I doubt I could do it in under 10 now if I tried.

-George Waksman
Message no. 52
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Joshua Mun)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 09:35:01 2002
Jane VR wrote:
>
> >actually removing a hard drive is a relatively easy thing to do. any
> >person with an average computer skill and an electronics kit should be
> >able to do it.
> >
>
> nitpick: computer B/R
>
> I can use a computer, but unless the hard drive is the only thing inside the
> box, I wouldn't know what to remove.
>
> Jane
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com

sorry sometimes my 2nd edition side gets the best of me. you are right
it is the computer b/r. but the point stands.
--
--------------------
"...Capitalist success [in the new information economy] is possible only
as long as most of the researchers remain 'communists'."
- Dr. Pekka Himanen (The Hacker Ethic)

"Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life."
- Bertolt Brecht
Message no. 53
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 10:25:01 2002
At 2/5/02 07:14 PM, you wrote:
> > I was gonna suggest the same thing then I remember technician funnies.
>The
> > coffee cup holder, using the mouse for a foot pedal, complaints of no
> > picture...because they never turned the monitor on...
> >
> > Logic is all well and good til it meets the computer
>illiterate...that's
> > when all hell breaks loose and the technicians go rolling down the
>aisle in laughter.

Maybe now, but not in 2060. Remember that computer illiteracy is a flaw and
a -2 one at that. Computers are everywhere and everyone has used them.
Maybe they haven't all fixed them, but pretty much every single person is
going to know the basics of what goes into them and likely deals with this
pretty often in their normal lives, not to mention likely having been
taught in school. It's a trivial task. If, as well, they're much like 20th
century hard drives they'll likely also be plastered with stickers and
lables declaring who made it, how much space it has, etc. Pretty hard to
miss. Considering I just recently taught my girlfriend, who is largely
computer illiterate, how to do this same thing while swapping out a cd-rom
and she understood rather quickly and thought there must be more to it I'm
willing to bet that it is by no means beyond the average person. Still
doesn't make it a good idea though.

Belgand



-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GS/CS/AT d- s-: a-- C++++ UL++>++++ US P+>++ L++>+++ E@ W++(+++) N+++@ o+
K++ w---() O- M-- !V PS+@ PE++(+++)@ Y+@ PGP- t+ 5 X++@ R++ tv++ b+++
DI++++ D+++ G++ e>++++$ h(!) r++ y+**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 54
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 10:40:01 2002
> I too have been building computers for a while (closer to 6 or 10
years
> for me) and I have seen a bunch like this. They're not as common as
the
> type that places the hard drive at the front but it's a fairly common
> practice to make the computer shorter (Baby-ATs do it a lot) and the
way
> I've seen it done wouldn't interfere with airflow as power supply fans
> point down usually and the hard drive is on the side.
>
> As a slight aside on the subject of hard drive removal. The first
computer
> I ever worked on was a very nice Dell 286 my family got about 10-12
years
> ago and removing the hard drive or either of the disk drives from that
> machine was the kind of task which took at least 30 minutes 6 years
ago
> and I doubt I could do it in under 10 now if I tried.
>
> -George Waksman

286? Umm....dude I think that pre-dates me being old enough to tinker
with computers....the first one I ever worked on (aside from an apple
IIe) was a macintosh running system 7.1 with a 68030 grade 75mhz
processor with a whopping 4MB of ram and a 500MB Hard drive....I'll have
to agree with you that the old ones sucked to work on....it took me 10
minutes just to get into the case (it was one of those THIN desktops)
and then pulling layer by layer of wiring out of the way....*shudders at
the returning nightmares*

Ok point made...lol...it could be a very high TN depending on the
complexity of the system
Message no. 55
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 11:40:02 2002
At 2/6/02 03:59 AM, you wrote:
>According to Jonathan, on Tue, 05 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...
>
> > Yeah but carting around a tower PC mainframe is easily noticeable...it's
> > not like you can tuck it under your armored vest and walk out with it,
> > someone will see an unknown person walking off with a piece of their
> > computer gear in your arms.
>
>Which is a good reason to make the thing bigger than necessary, even if
>much of its internal space is simply empty because the components are small
>enough. Better make those hard to remove then, though, else someone will
>get the bright idea of opening it up and taking only the important parts :)

I guess it comes down to a simple thing: make it a hell of a lot harder for
them to get into the server room and take them out than it would be to get
the decker to come along on the run. If they do manage to get in then munge
up the data somehow (corrupt, modified, shot up, etc.), damage an essential
part or something else that screws them over while allowing more
roleplaying opprotunities. The most important thing is the game afterall.

Belgand


-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
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K++ w---() O- M-- !V PS+@ PE++(+++)@ Y+@ PGP- t+ 5 X++@ R++ tv++ b+++
DI++++ D+++ G++ e>++++$ h(!) r++ y+**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 56
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 13:20:00 2002
According to Mark M. Smith, on Wed, 06 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Maybe now, but not in 2060. Remember that computer illiteracy is a flaw
> and a -2 one at that. Computers are everywhere and everyone has used
> them. Maybe they haven't all fixed them, but pretty much every single
> person is going to know the basics of what goes into them and likely
> deals with this pretty often in their normal lives not to mention likely
> having been taught in school.

I don't think those two things are the same. We all deal with TVs every day,
and I doubt anyone here will have any problem using the basic or more
advanced features of TVs. But if you take off the back panel, I have a
feeling most won't know what the various parts are or what they do, let
alone how they do it. Being able to use the user interface of a computer is
nowhere near the same thing as being able to tinker with the hardware.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 57
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 14:35:01 2002
From: "Jane VR" <kadjari@*******.com>
<Snip>
> did I look in the right place to start with (e.g. not in the monitor)?

What? Does that mean that my iMac dosn't have a harddisk, since it's basically
just a monitor with a few holes in it?

:-)

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 58
From: shadowrn@*********.com (James Zealey)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 17:05:07 2002
<snip stuff about a hardrive limited to a single computer>
-----------Message from Derek Hyde-------------
Possible......maybe....advanced tech I'll say sure...by the way the "vein"
you're referring to is called sub channel data, the only time it's referenced is when
you're running an application from it, HOWEVER it is easy to obtain a "helper"
program that will allow a copied version of the CD to still operate as if normal because
it will feed the missing sub channel data to the program, which is of course assuming that
you're not lucky enough to have a copy made from a high quality CD Burner such as a
plextor or any of the others that are capable of reading and writing the sub channel data
specifically in addition to all of the rest of the data on the CD...(there are only 2
others in addition to the
plextor burners that I'm aware of that are capable of this so if you were talking about
this in game you could say that it requires a high rating device to copy it however the
melting down thing would almost have to be somewhat like the omega wiring that is
mentioned in one of the books, it'd have to be so high end that a regular computer or
cyberdeck couldn't interface the drive without it melting the circuits because of the
immense amount of data being forced through at an insane rate of speed (many many times
the max I/O speed of the deck or computer)
----------------End of Message-----------------

$AUS32.50. Thats about the price of the components to make something like this (that does
the first three items of the "bad stuff" list below).
You set up the system so that the "special" drive isn't on the BIOS, and thus
nothing will try to access it until your custom-designed program. Then you wire it with a
couple of components which ensure that the first X bits sent to it are a special code. If
they're not, then you:
Execute the drive's low-level format routine
Electrically ignite a layer of thermite sitting above the data storage area
Discharge a gigantic capacitor into the power supply of the drive. Since the drive is on
the part of the circuit within the power conditioning sections, this is likely to affect
other components.
Install a sufficiently complex computer in the drive that it can look for other components
of the system, override control of them, and broadcast a signal to the corp over any net
connections (all but impossible today, but technology is going in such a direction this
will become possible).
Or hell, you just booby trap all the drives so they do these things when the case is
opened. Much easier.


"Your gun has 'replica'
written down the side, mine
has 'Ares HVAR'..."

____________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE Web and POP E-mail Service in 14 languages at http://www.zzn.com.
Message no. 59
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Joshua Mun)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 17:55:01 2002
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Mark M. Smith, on Wed, 06 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...
>
> > Maybe now, but not in 2060. Remember that computer illiteracy is a flaw
> > and a -2 one at that. Computers are everywhere and everyone has used
> > them. Maybe they haven't all fixed them, but pretty much every single
> > person is going to know the basics of what goes into them and likely
> > deals with this pretty often in their normal lives not to mention likely
> > having been taught in school.
>
> I don't think those two things are the same. We all deal with TVs every day,
> and I doubt anyone here will have any problem using the basic or more
> advanced features of TVs. But if you take off the back panel, I have a
> feeling most won't know what the various parts are or what they do, let
> alone how they do it. Being able to use the user interface of a computer is
> nowhere near the same thing as being able to tinker with the hardware.
>
Gurth is exactly right. Take my mother for example. She knows the how
to use the computer, in fact she is a really good computer programmer
but if she opens up the computer she cant tell one piece of equipment
from another. In shadowrun terms she has a computer skill of 5 but a
computer b/r skill of nonexistent.
--
--------------------
"...Capitalist success [in the new information economy] is possible only
as long as most of the researchers remain 'communists'."
- Dr. Pekka Himanen (The Hacker Ethic)

"Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life."
- Bertolt Brecht
Message no. 60
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 19:35:01 2002
I was just thinking about this thread.

Imagine doing a run into a machine room somewhere only to find the hard
drive you wanted to rip out of the mainframe was actually hidden
somewhere in one of those big EMC EDM fraggers, full of expansion
chasses, and loaded for bear. The bloody thing would probably weigh
something rediculous like 1000lbs.

Forget the 3xSTR 7+ sams. You'ld need a rigger with a forklift.

Christian.
Message no. 61
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 21:25:00 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Mun" <grenaldi@*********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Matrix servers?


> Gurth wrote:
> >
> > According to Mark M. Smith, on Wed, 06 Feb 2002 the word on the street
was...
> >
> > > Maybe now, but not in 2060. Remember that computer illiteracy is a
flaw
> > > and a -2 one at that. Computers are everywhere and everyone has used
> > > them. Maybe they haven't all fixed them, but pretty much every single
> > > person is going to know the basics of what goes into them and likely
> > > deals with this pretty often in their normal lives not to mention
likely
> > > having been taught in school.
> >
> > I don't think those two things are the same. We all deal with TVs every
day,
> > and I doubt anyone here will have any problem using the basic or more
> > advanced features of TVs. But if you take off the back panel, I have a
> > feeling most won't know what the various parts are or what they do, let
> > alone how they do it. Being able to use the user interface of a computer
is
> > nowhere near the same thing as being able to tinker with the hardware.
> >
> Gurth is exactly right. Take my mother for example. She knows the how
> to use the computer, in fact she is a really good computer programmer
> but if she opens up the computer she cant tell one piece of equipment
> from another. In shadowrun terms she has a computer skill of 5 but a
> computer b/r skill of nonexistent.

Wheras, I would be somewhat the opposite. I can open up a computer, and
install most hardware upgrades, or can set up a TCP/IP network, but my
programming experience is limited to some half remembered snippets of BASIC
and HTML (which anyone can learn). I'd say that I have a B/R skill of
around 3, but my actual computer skill would be around 2.
Message no. 62
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Wed Feb 6 21:45:00 2002
At 09:27 PM 2/6/2002 -0500, Chris Beilby wrote:
>Wheras, I would be somewhat the opposite. I can open up a computer, and
>install most hardware upgrades, or can set up a TCP/IP network, but my
>programming experience is limited to some half remembered snippets of BASIC
>and HTML (which anyone can learn). I'd say that I have a B/R skill of
>around 3, but my actual computer skill would be around 2.

and then you take the people that can make Graphics programs, like Quark &
Photoshop and that ilk zing, and the people that can make CAD applications
beg for mercy, the *NIX gurus that can optimise a server. And the Perl
Hackers that can make your head spin. But going between the different
applications is almost impossible...
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 63
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Thu Feb 7 02:30:01 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> $AUS32.50. Thats about the price of the components
to make something like this (that does the first three
items of the "bad stuff" list below). You set up the
system so that the "special" drive isn't on the BIOS,
and thus nothing will try to access it until your
custom-designed program. Then you wire it with a
couple of components which ensure that the first X
bits sent to it are a special code. If they're not,
then you: Execute the drive's low-level format routine
Electrically ignite a layer of thermite sitting above
the data storage area Discharge a gigantic capacitor
into the power supply of the drive. Since the drive is
on the part of the circuit within the power
conditioning sections, this is likely to affect other
components. Install a sufficiently complex computer in
the drive that it can look for other components of the
system, override control of them, and broadcast a
signal to the corp over any net connections (all but
impossible today, but technology is going in such a
direction this will become possible). Or hell, you
just booby trap all the drives so they do these things
when the case is opened. Much easier.

Easier, but you don't vape the offending decker's
machine and notify the corp "collection agency" as you
suggested. :)

There ya go...the perfect paranoia-inducing solution
of hard drive theft. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 64
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Thu Feb 7 05:20:01 2002
According to Joshua Mun, on Wed, 06 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Gurth is exactly right. Take my mother for example. She knows the how
> to use the computer, in fact she is a really good computer programmer
> but if she opens up the computer she cant tell one piece of equipment
> from another. In shadowrun terms she has a computer skill of 5 but a
> computer b/r skill of nonexistent.

She could default to it, though. Still, I suspect that with about 99% of
computer users buying complete systems from large companies these days,
instead of loose bits and pieces to assemble at home, ever more people
won't know what computer components look like. Certainly by the 2060s, I
doubt anyone except computer techs, deckers, and similar types will know a
computer's (or cyberdeck's) memory from its power supply.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 65
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Thu Feb 7 05:20:29 2002
According to Justin Bell, on Thu, 07 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> and then you take the people that can make Graphics programs, like Quark
> & Photoshop and that ilk zing, and the people that can make CAD
> applications beg for mercy, the *NIX gurus that can optimise a server.
> And the Perl Hackers that can make your head spin. But going between the
> different applications is almost impossible...

I'd consider that two different things; optimizing a server or writing Perl
code would be Computer skill, but using QuarkXPress, Photoshop, CAD
software, etc. I'd put under some kind of Computer Graphics knowledge
skill, with Computer skill being used as a complimentary skill at best.
This because you're not actually trying to use the computer itself, but an
application on it -- whereas if you want to code stuff, you need to know
how a computer works.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 66
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Vincent Pellerin)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Fri Feb 8 00:35:01 2002
Just my 2 cents

Where I used to work, we moved and I a new server for the new location, the
tech made a nice show about our new server ( looked like a slightly bigger
PC ) with three ( small briefcase size ) hard drives that could simply be
pulled out from the front, no screws, no lock ( just a locking switch I
believe, not sure). You could remove ANY ONE of the three hard drives
during ANY
operations without anybody realizing it as it simultaneously use two HD for the
backup of data.

I do believe that 2060 tech will at least be able to top that, as
complications go in a moderate size corp., I could see

-knowing where the data you are looking for is ( you see a small computer
and 50 optical storage drives on the wall, do you take the one labeled
6dfh45 or sdaf65ag6 ? ) only a decker could know.

-Security supervision of the room and of the server itself by a security
server elsewhere (camera, contact switch or operation supervision of the
data storage device ), need a decker too on this.

-Encryption ( or data splitting ) on the storage device making them useless
unless you steal all of them or the hardwired decryption server.

-The data module could automatically erase themselves if removed without the
correct code inputted in the server rack being inputted ( need a decker
again ).

These could help you force a decker on site and would not be unrealistic.

_____
\ \ /
\ __/ / Vincent Pellerin
\ /
\_/ vpelleri@************.qc.ca

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.2 GE d-(+) s:+> a->? C+ US- L E? W+>++ N+ o? K? w(--) O M V- PS
PE+ Y PGP->+ t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI? D+ G e++ h+ r y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 67
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Matrix servers?
Date: Fri Feb 8 08:55:01 2002
From: "Vincent Pellerin" <vpelleri@************.qc.ca>
> Just my 2 cents

That's not a lot these days!

> Where I used to work, we moved and I a new server for the new location, the
> tech made a nice show about our new server ( looked like a slightly bigger
> PC ) with three ( small briefcase size ) hard drives that could simply be
> pulled out from the front, no screws, no lock ( just a locking switch I
> believe, not sure). You could remove ANY ONE of the three hard drives
> during ANY operations without anybody realizing it as it simultaneously use
> two HD for the backup of data.

Sure you can pull out one of the drives, but you cannot use the data on the
drive for anything.

It's called Raid 5 (Disk stripe with parity). From two of the disks you can
always figure out what should have been on the 3rd disk, and thus you can
function with one disk damaged or missing. But left with only one disk you can't
use anything.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.

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