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Message no. 1
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Matrix Shamans
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 13:09:17 -0400
>>>>> "Menard" == Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
writes:

Menard> I've heard rumors about cybershamans and then there`s the
Menard> comments in the Denver book. Decking without ASIST, Matrix
Menard> Spirits. curdles my blood just thinking about it.

Ever hear the phrase "computer wizard"? Is there any magic involved in
the day-to-day administration of computer systems today?

Can you say "literary allusion"?

Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ returned to its special container and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 2
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:10:28 -0700
On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?

I hope so, because FASA is putting magic EVERYWHERE. Pretty soon you
won't be able to go down to the local Stuffer Shack without getting
accosted by magic phenomenon of some type. I kind of view the matrix as
the last place where magic users DON'T rule supreme.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Jason Ustica | usticaj@****.com | Lancaster, CA
-----------------------------------------------------------
*Sorry, no geek code, no stupid quotes, no lame web sites*
Message no. 3
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 18:12:48 -0400
On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "Menard" == Menard Steve
<menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA> writes:
>
> Menard> I've heard rumors about cybershamans and then there`s the
> Menard> comments in the Denver book. Decking without ASIST, Matrix
> Menard> Spirits. curdles my blood just thinking about it.
>
> Ever hear the phrase "computer wizard"? Is there any magic involved in
> the day-to-day administration of computer systems today?
>
> Can you say "literary allusion"?
>
> Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
>
My dear Rat, I agree wholeheartedly on what you're saying. What I'm
saying is, I think FASA does not think like us. My roomate is gone with
teh Denver book but I clearly remember somthing along the lines of :"
There are spirits of nature and spirits of man, why should there not be
Spirits of the machine?". That phrase, or something very much like it,
was posted by one of the senior Otaku, the weirdos hanging around the
Nexus. I'm not saying it makes any sense, I'm not saying I like it, I'm
only saying I'm afraid FASA IS going that way, mixing something that
never be mixed.

Also why would FASA announce Metrix Shamans new rules, to the point of
making it a subtitle(of either the upcoming VR 2.0 or the new Magic book,
I'm not sure) if it was only a catch phrase? I do not like it, but I'm
afraid it is happening(but surely not in MY game!).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 17:26:00 MDT
>
>Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
>


What about the "biff" Dodger was just in love with in the Matrix?


Jill
Message no. 5
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 16:29:35 -0700
>>
>>Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
>>
>What about the "biff" Dodger was just in love with in the Matrix?
>
>Jill
>
---
I was under the inpression she was an AI or something similar. Mayhap FASA
decided magic was necessary for an AI to evolve, mayhap not. Which brings
up the point, if an AI is considered sentiant does that mean it is alive?
If it is alive would it not have an aura. Which (as so many seem to fear)
means it may be possible to have a form of magic in the matrix.

Enjoy.
Brian

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next on Entertaining Today/Tomarrow?Tosometimes:
The movie everyone has been waiting for...
Without a Clue in Tucson
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Staring that blondest of blonds, Nurse Wratchet, with co-stars
I'll Never Tell and Dirty Little Secret.

Stay Tuned for the chill, next, after these messages.
**************************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet" aka bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu aka
brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
**************************************************************************
Message no. 6
From: "Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 17:16:24 -0700
*-------------------------------------------*
|Stephen M. Bugge|<bugge@********.edu> |
|President, |<buug@***.com> |
|College GOP @ SU|<75764.240@**********.com>|
*-------------------------------------------*
> >
> ---
> I was under the inpression she was an AI or something similar. Mayhap FASA
> decided magic was necessary for an AI to evolve, mayhap not. Which brings
> up the point, if an AI is considered sentiant does that mean it is alive?
> If it is alive would it not have an aura. Which (as so many seem to fear)
> means it may be possible to have a form of magic in the matrix.

I remeber recently hearing of a silicon valley computer R&D firm
announcing that they had had some success with grafting DNA to processing
chips in order to increase their processing power and efficiency. So
here's a problem. Supposing in game terms that someone is using these
chips to put together an AI. Now you have a self Aware computer with a
set of DNA. Now hook this up to an assembly plant, or at least enough
production slave nodes to build a copy of it's self. You now have a
Sentient Machince with DNA and the ability to self replicate. Is it
ALIVE? If the answer is yes could it not become magically active and
astrally aware?

>
> Enjoy.
> Brian
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Next on Entertaining Today/Tomarrow?Tosometimes:
> The movie everyone has been waiting for...
> Without a Clue in Tucson
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Staring that blondest of blonds, Nurse Wratchet, with co-stars
> I'll Never Tell and Dirty Little Secret.
>
> Stay Tuned for the chill, next, after these messages.
> **************************************************************************
> "Nurse Wratchet" aka bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu aka
> brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
> **************************************************************************
Message no. 7
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 21:59:32 -0400
>>>>> "Mike" == Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
writes:

>> Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
Mike> What about the "biff" Dodger was just in love with in the Matrix?

A very advanced expert system, possibly borderline sentient.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ of skin.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 8
From: Mr Bob Sagittarian <habelmon@********.CS.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 11:52:14 +0930
>
> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
writes:
>
> >> Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
> Mike> What about the "biff" Dodger was just in love with in the Matrix?
>
> A very advanced expert system, possibly borderline sentient.
>
> --


Of course, it could just be a standard decker delusion of grandeur. Lett's face it.,
deckers who try to escape into a world of their own where .likeminded rejectts can
discuss absoolute bullshit aren't likey tto be ther most stabl;e minded of people.
And the reason this is so bad is because this keyboard sucks.

Dodger would probably be wone of tthe less stable deckers around. What about the
dumb way thatt he speaks. He. Let's face it, real men are riggers. No two ways about
it.

--

Bob Sagittarian Odds & Ends
habelmon@********.cs.adelaide.edu.au
stimpy@****.student.adelaide.edu.au
Message no. 9
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:53:23 -0400
On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:

> >
> >Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
> >
>
>
> What about the "biff" Dodger was just in love with in the Matrix?

That' an AI, not a spirit!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:56:28 -0400
On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Brian A. Stewart wrote:

> ---
> I was under the inpression she was an AI or something similar. Mayhap FASA
> decided magic was necessary for an AI to evolve, mayhap not. Which brings
> up the point, if an AI is considered sentiant does that mean it is alive?
> If it is alive would it not have an aura. Which (as so many seem to fear)
> means it may be possible to have a form of magic in the matrix.

It may be considered "alive" by the complicated human philosophy, but
it is not made of living(read biological) tissue, so it would not have
more aura than a standard program. Unless the AI needs some form of
biological processor to exist(which seems plausible enough to me). Bu
then again, the aura would be at the point of origin, not in the matrix.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 00:00:24 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
>

Can you say "FASA makes the rules... if they think it will sell, they'll
publish it"? (However, I don't think they will... but the Denver Source
book _does_ set the stage)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 00:12:27 +0930
Jason Ustica wrote:
>
> On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> > Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
>
> I hope so, because FASA is putting magic EVERYWHERE. Pretty soon you
> won't be able to go down to the local Stuffer Shack without getting
> accosted by magic phenomenon of some type. I kind of view the matrix as
> the last place where magic users DON'T rule supreme.

Well, that IS the ultimate future of the FASA universe... admittedly not
for a few hundred years, but hey.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 00:17:58 +0930
Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
> >Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
>
> What about the "biff" Dodger was just in love with in the Matrix?
>
That was an AI, created by an accident that could not be duplicated, and
possibly destroyed in a conflict with others of a similar nature. And I
don't know what is worse: FASA unleashing Matrix shamans, which could
potentially be PCs, or Semi-Autonamous KnowBots, one of which, WHILE
ENGAGED IN FIGHTING THE AI, knocks Dodger for six with a single,
half-distracted blow. I don't wanna see these guys out there either.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 14
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 00:19:04 +0930
Brian A. Stewart wrote:
>
> I was under the inpression she was an AI or something similar. Mayhap FASA
> decided magic was necessary for an AI to evolve, mayhap not. Which brings
> up the point, if an AI is considered sentiant does that mean it is alive?
> If it is alive would it not have an aura. Which (as so many seem to fear)
> means it may be possible to have a form of magic in the matrix.

Define sentience. Define life. Whatever you get, you won't have an aura, as
aura's are the properties of ORGANIC things.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 15
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 11:46:34 -0400
On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> That was an AI, created by an accident that could not be duplicated, and
> possibly destroyed in a conflict with others of a similar nature. And I
> don't know what is worse: FASA unleashing Matrix shamans, which could
> potentially be PCs, or Semi-Autonamous KnowBots, one of which, WHILE
> ENGAGED IN FIGHTING THE AI, knocks Dodger for six with a single,
> half-distracted blow. I don't wanna see these guys out there either.
>
Well, at least the have a logical explanation for being there. Such a
thing cannot be said for magic(ok, magic DOES defy logic sometimes, but
still ...). I myself cannot see magical Matrix Spirit, their Domain DOES
NOT EXIST! Its only an hallucination. Myself I think FASA is going doing
a big error with this one ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 19:50:29 -0400
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Menard Steve wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > >Can you say "there's no magic in the matrix"?
> > >
> > What about the "biff" Dodger was just in love with in the Matrix?
> That' an AI, not a spirit!

Well, you never know...after all, it said it was born when Dodger
and Sam went by the Core, and Sam's a Shaman...his magic could've done
something strange... After all, why did it require one of *them*?

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 17
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 19:56:39 -0400
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Menard Steve wrote:
> Well, at least the have a logical explanation for being there. Such a
> thing cannot be said for magic(ok, magic DOES defy logic sometimes, but
> still ...). I myself cannot see magical Matrix Spirit, their Domain DOES
> NOT EXIST! Its only an hallucination. Myself I think FASA is going doing
> a big error with this one ...

Depends. In another game, their Matrix became real. More or
less, as Magic increased in THEIR world, the people's belief in VR
created a pocket-dimension in which the Matrix existed, alongside in 5D
space our own.

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 18
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 00:22:11 -0500
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On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> A very advanced expert system, possibly borderline sentient.

She was sentient. She expressed feelings.

So there.

That's what I say, and I'm sticking to it.

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Message no. 19
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 10:01:18 -0400
On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Dave Stone wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Menard Steve wrote:
> > Well, at least the have a logical explanation for being there. Such a
> > thing cannot be said for magic(ok, magic DOES defy logic sometimes, but
> > still ...). I myself cannot see magical Matrix Spirit, their Domain DOES
> > NOT EXIST! Its only an hallucination. Myself I think FASA is going doing
> > a big error with this one ...
>
> Depends. In another game, their Matrix became real. More or
> less, as Magic increased in THEIR world, the people's belief in VR
> created a pocket-dimension in which the Matrix existed, alongside in 5D
> space our own.
>
Well, if you want the Matrix to be another dimension(and have deckers
'matrixally' project there), that's fine with me, but still, there's too
many things that seems wrong(like, how do computers interract with
something that became inherently magical). And the matrix being virtual,
I don't think there'll be matrix shamans anytime soon in my game.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 10:49:17 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert A Hayden
<hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

>> A very advanced expert system, possibly borderline sentient.

Robert> She was sentient. She expressed feelings.
Robert> So there.
Robert> That's what I say, and I'm sticking to it.

An advanced expert system may be indistinguishable from a true AI
without administering a Touring test. When someone from FASA says she
passes one, she's an AI; until then the FASA party line is there are no
AIs in Shadowrun. Yet :).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ returned to its special container and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 21
From: Charles KcKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 19:29:56 -0500
> Also why would FASA announce Metrix Shamans new rules, to the point of
> making it a subtitle(of either the upcoming VR 2.0 or the new Magic book,
> I'm not sure) if it was only a catch phrase? I do not like it, but I'm
> afraid it is happening(but surely not in MY game!).

The only possible explanation for magic in the matrix would be some sort
of 'matrix adept' type thing that develops in 'matrix babies' like the
boy in VR and Tyrell Gates from Prime Runners...
...althouh it IS kinda dumb to relate it to magic, what happens to
magically actice people who are raised in the matrix?
It would seem to be kind of related to the 'knowledge adept' that someone
brought up a while ago...

Kilroy
Message no. 22
From: Charles KcKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 20:04:05 -0500
> Depends. In another game, their Matrix became real. More or
> less, as Magic increased in THEIR world, the people's belief in VR
> created a pocket-dimension in which the Matrix existed, alongside in 5D
> space our own.
>
Oh...I can see a shaman summoning a 'black ice' spirit already...

Kilroy
Message no. 23
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 21:18:51 -0400
On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Charles KcKenzie wrote:

> The only possible explanation for magic in the matrix would be some sort
> of 'matrix adept' type thing that develops in 'matrix babies' like the
> boy in VR and Tyrell Gates from Prime Runners...
> ...althouh it IS kinda dumb to relate it to magic, what happens to
> magically actice people who are raised in the matrix?
> It would seem to be kind of related to the 'knowledge adept' that someone
> brought up a while ago...

If your knowledge is what I think it is, I'm the one who brought it
up. It was only the counterpart to the physical adept(one increases his
body with magic, the other his mind). And I do not see the link here, sorry!
The main problem I see is that the Matrix does not really exist. The only
existence it has is in bits(or pulses) or data in computer, which CAN NOT
support any magic, right?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 01:49:21 -0400
On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Charles KcKenzie wrote:
> Oh...I can see a shaman summoning a 'black ice' spirit already...
> Kilroy

If FASA does it the way the game I'm talking about (TORG) did, it
won't be so bad. The Net in TORG is weird, in that the MIND is the main
motivator, so only things up to your Perception and Mind will work. In
Shadowrun terms, limit it to Willpower. That'd stop initiates from being
even more powerful in the Net. Plus, since it's a pocket dimension, ala
Astral Space, all those nice Spell-Locks won't work...(too bad,
really...be nice to pump a spell through one, if they do it similarly to
TORG.)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:14:44 +0200
>...althouh it IS kinda dumb to relate it to magic, what happens to
>magically actice people who are raised in the matrix?


They wouldn't be magically active -- it takes training to use magic,
training they never got. About 1 in every 100 people has magical potential.
1 in 10 out of those becomes a full magician (mage or shaman), the rest are
adepts or just don't know they've got the power to use magic. Your matrix
kids would fall into that last group, IMHO.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sponsored by nobody
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 18:28:17 +0930
Menard Steve wrote:
>
> Well, at least the have a logical explanation for being there. Such a
> thing cannot be said for magic(ok, magic DOES defy logic sometimes, but
> still ...). I myself cannot see magical Matrix Spirit, their Domain DOES
> NOT EXIST! Its only an hallucination. Myself I think FASA is going doing
> a big error with this one ...

The Matrix DOES exist. It is real. It is physical. It exists in the form of
thousands of millions of megabytes of code scattered all across the world.
And what better way to interact with ALL of it then by magic?

For another perspective: the Matrix is the ultimate creation of Man, and
Man has become one of the most dominant aspects of Nature (and, neo-pagans
aside, Man IS SO part of Nature). FASA already expresses this with the
Totems of Man. And if Totems are merely facets of how people view magic
(okay, they're more than that... but the forms we see them in are merely
facets), than a Matrix Totem would be logical. Not nice, but logical.

Heck, if the Matrix really didn't exist, it'd have to be magic. :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 27
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:15:05 +0930
Dave Stone wrote:
>
> Well, you never know...after all, it said it was born when Dodger
> and Sam went by the Core, and Sam's a Shaman...his magic could've done
> something strange... After all, why did it require one of *them*?

Who says it did? They were in the node when the scientists ran an
experiment. Further attempts to duplicate it may be sucessful regardless of
who is there. The scientists haven't tried it, because they were unaware of
the intrusion.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:26:10 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> An advanced expert system may be indistinguishable from a true AI
> without administering a Touring test. When someone from FASA says she
> passes one, she's an AI; until then the FASA party line is there are no
> AIs in Shadowrun. Yet :).

The difference being: Morgane's in the literature, not in the rules. They
overlap, but they are not the same. :)

BTW, a true AI may very well FAIL the Turing test... it may not be possible
to create a _human_-like intelligence in a machine (though that is the goal
of AI research). The first true AIs may have thinking patterns very alien
indeed, due to their extremely alien environment.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 29
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:40:04 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
writes:

Robert> The difference being: Morgane's in the literature, not in the
Robert> rules. They overlap, but they are not the same. :)

Well, there is that :).

Robert> BTW, a true AI may very well FAIL the Turing test...

Yeah, and a human being could fail one, too. That's more a shortcoming
of the test, not the subject it is being administered to.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 30
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:24:10 -0400
On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Menard Steve wrote:
> >
> > Well, at least the have a logical explanation for being there. Such a
> > thing cannot be said for magic(ok, magic DOES defy logic sometimes, but
> > still ...). I myself cannot see magical Matrix Spirit, their Domain DOES
> > NOT EXIST! Its only an hallucination. Myself I think FASA is going doing
> > a big error with this one ...
>
> The Matrix DOES exist. It is real. It is physical. It exists in the form of
> thousands of millions of megabytes of code scattered all across the world.
> And what better way to interact with ALL of it then by magic?
>
> For another perspective: the Matrix is the ultimate creation of Man, and
> Man has become one of the most dominant aspects of Nature (and, neo-pagans
> aside, Man IS SO part of Nature). FASA already expresses this with the
> Totems of Man. And if Totems are merely facets of how people view magic
> (okay, they're more than that... but the forms we see them in are merely
> facets), than a Matrix Totem would be logical. Not nice, but logical.
>
Spirits of man exist because Cities, Homes and Fields are way for man
to create, to further LIFE. City Spirits represent the whole mass of
human minds, grouped in a community. Hearth spirit represent
Homes(probably why yo do not have Hearth Psirits in most Corporate
Building). etc ... And I am sorry, but there is no LIFE in the Matrix,
at least no biological life. The Matrix is more Machine-made and
sustained than man-made, so I can not see any magic there.

> Heck, if the Matrix really didn't exist, it'd have to be magic. :)
>
Hell, thats why its called Virtual Reality!

> --
> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
> are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
> *** Finger me for my geek code ***
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 09:31:20 -0700
Magic gets everywhere else. Leave it out of the Matrix! The techy-types need
-some- pure ground.

sheesh.

mho

-E
Message no. 32
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 17:04:17 +0930
Menard Steve wrote:
> Spirits of man exist because Cities, Homes and Fields are way for man
> to create, to further LIFE. City Spirits represent the whole mass of
> human minds, grouped in a community. Hearth spirit represent
> Homes(probably why yo do not have Hearth Psirits in most Corporate
> Building). etc ... And I am sorry, but there is no LIFE in the Matrix,
> at least no biological life. The Matrix is more Machine-made and
> sustained than man-made, so I can not see any magic there.

You have Heart spirits EVERYWHERE... and, like I said, if WYTIWYG works,
than a form of magic that exists in the Matrix is quite possible, and I see
no bounds on it being hermetic or shamanic. (Hmm... maybe _exists_ isn't
the best word... try "interacts with", instead).

As for there being no LIFE, so? Can you say Toxic spirits?? :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 33
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 12:43:56 -0400
On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Menard Steve wrote:
> > Spirits of man exist because Cities, Homes and Fields are way for man
> > to create, to further LIFE. City Spirits represent the whole mass of
> > human minds, grouped in a community. Hearth spirit represent
> > Homes(probably why yo do not have Hearth Psirits in most Corporate
> > Building). etc ... And I am sorry, but there is no LIFE in the Matrix,
> > at least no biological life. The Matrix is more Machine-made and
> > sustained than man-made, so I can not see any magic there.
>
> You have Heart spirits EVERYWHERE... and, like I said, if WYTIWYG works,
> than a form of magic that exists in the Matrix is quite possible, and I see
> no bounds on it being hermetic or shamanic. (Hmm... maybe _exists_ isn't
> the best word... try "interacts with", instead).
Sorry to contradict you, but if look at the Toxic spirit desriptions,
you'll see that a Corporate building(normal ones, the arcology is
different!) are devoid of normal spirits. So Hearth spirits devellop in
buildings where there is a sens of HOME, not any building.

>
> As for there being no LIFE, so? Can you say Toxic spirits?? :)
>
Again, no. Toxics are found where life have been warped and polluted.
There has to be life to begin with, which there is not in the matrix.(BTW
the Toxics found in Corp. Compounds are not always Hearth spirits. The
can also often be City or Neture spirits, depending on what the building
of emplacement was before the construction of the corp.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@***.IM.MED.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Shamans
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 08:55:47 -0400
Anyone for designing an Atari Totem? ;)

Something would have to be mentioned about limited access to software and
software support....not to mention limited availability of programs....

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Matrix Shamans, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!