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Message no. 1
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:13:52 -0400
To Everyone who was wondering--

The maximum possible initiative boost for characters is +3d6.
There are only two, or possibly three, exceptions to this rule. Here's al=
l
the cites I could find to back me up.

SR3: page 194, Increase Reflexes spell.
SR2: page 155, Increase Reflexes spell.
Grimoire 2: page 129, Decrease Reflexes spell.
SR3: page 300, Boosted Reflexes.
SSC2: page 87, Boosted Reflexes.
Shadowtech: page 28, Synaptic Accellerator.
Cybertech: page 39, Move-by-Wire.

The exceptions are:

Move-by-Wire level 4 (+4 QCK, +8 React., +4d6 initiative, =

+4 dice to Athletics and Stealth rolls)

Move-by-Wire and Synaptic Accellerator level 1 (+5d6 =

initiative). Cybertech: page 57. The problem here is that *this is
contradicted* by both the Synaptic Accellerator reference *and* the
Move-by-Wire reference. I'm surprised this one slipped past me when I
playtested it.

Synaptic Accellerator (any level) and the Increase Reflexes =

spell. The potential here is a maximum boost of +5d6. I'm not sure I'd
allow it, but the rules don't say it's impossible.

At least part of the problem is that this rule isn't a stated
rule. It's a "rule by inference." If you look at all the references =

I've cited, you will note that there is no way to go past the +3d6 barrie=
r
*except* in the two or three ways that I mentioned.

Shadowmage
Message no. 2
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:33:02 EDT
In a message dated 9/6/98 7:27:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Tarek_Okail@**********.COM writes:

> Synaptic Accellerator (any level) and the Increase Reflexes
> spell. The potential here is a maximum boost of +5d6. I'm not sure I'd
> allow it, but the rules don't say it's impossible.

Uh, actually the SR3 book on page 194 says:

"Increased Reflexes is not compadible with any other type of increase to a
subject's initiative dice..."

-Bandit
Message no. 3
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:53:58 -0400
Bandit--

>Uh, actually the SR3 book on page 194 says:
>
>"Increased Reflexes is not compadible with any other type of =

>increase to a subject's initiative dice..."

Yes, but for those on the list who are still playing with
second edition rules, it is technically possible to combine
Synaptic Accell. 2 and Inc. Reflexes +3 to get a +5d6 bonus. <g>
In SR3, it's just plain impossible.

Shadowmage
Message no. 4
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:03:06 EDT
In a message dated 9/6/98 10:55:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Tarek_Okail@**********.COM writes:

> Yes, but for those on the list who are still playing with
> second edition rules, it is technically possible to combine
> Synaptic Accell. 2 and Inc. Reflexes +3 to get a +5d6 bonus. <g>

Last time I asked FASA about it, they said that while it is not stated, Reflex
Boosts that give extra dice should not combine.

I think it was Randell that responded to that question.

-Bandit
Message no. 5
From: Wookiee <ewslof@*******.STU.COWAN.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:48:56 +0800
Tarek Okail wrote:

> To Everyone who was wondering--
>
> The maximum possible initiative boost for characters is +3d6.
> There are only two, or possibly three, exceptions to this rule. Here's all
> the cites I could find to back me up.
>
> SR3: page 194, Increase Reflexes spell.
> SR2: page 155, Increase Reflexes spell.
> Grimoire 2: page 129, Decrease Reflexes spell.
> SR3: page 300, Boosted Reflexes.
> SSC2: page 87, Boosted Reflexes.
> Shadowtech: page 28, Synaptic Accellerator.
> Cybertech: page 39, Move-by-Wire.
>
> The exceptions are:
>
> Move-by-Wire level 4 (+4 QCK, +8 React., +4d6 initiative,
> +4 dice to Athletics and Stealth rolls)
>
> Move-by-Wire and Synaptic Accellerator level 1 (+5d6
> initiative). Cybertech: page 57. The problem here is that *this is
> contradicted* by both the Synaptic Accellerator reference *and* the
> Move-by-Wire reference. I'm surprised this one slipped past me when I
> playtested it.
>
> Synaptic Accellerator (any level) and the Increase Reflexes
> spell. The potential here is a maximum boost of +5d6. I'm not sure I'd
> allow it, but the rules don't say it's impossible.
>
> At least part of the problem is that this rule isn't a stated
> rule. It's a "rule by inference." If you look at all the references
> I've cited, you will note that there is no way to go past the +3d6 barrier
> *except* in the two or three ways that I mentioned.
>
> Shadowmage

theres another (correct me if im rong) become a otaku and you get 6D6
automatically in the matrix (ok place constrained) well thats how i read it
wit a respone of (will+int)/2 +3d6 and a natural matrix reaction of intell(??
no book handy)+3d6 no wonder they are the 'gods' of the matrix
Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:55:58 -0500
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:48:56 +0800 Wookiee
<ewslof@*******.STU.COWAN.EDU.AU> writes:
>Tarek Okail wrote:
<SNIP>
> theres another (correct me if im rong) become a otaku and you get 6D6
>automatically in the matrix (ok place constrained) well thats how i read
it
>wit a respone of (will+int)/2 +3d6 and a natural matrix reaction of
intell(??
>no book handy)+3d6 no wonder they are the 'gods' of the matrix

You are wrong. An otaku's intiative in the matrix is (will+int)/2 +3D6
... no other mods apply. That is their MAX ... a normal decker can have
3 levels of response increase (+2 reaction, +1d6 init per level), run Hot
assist (+2 reaction, +1d6 init), and use a reality filter (+2 reaction,
+1d6 init). For a grand total of (normal base reaction)+10 +6D6 ... no
wonder otaku are the 'gods' of the matri--oh wait ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 7
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:05:08 -0400
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Wookiee wrote:

-> theres another (correct me if im rong) become a otaku and you get 6D6
->automatically in the matrix (ok place constrained) well thats how i read it
->wit a respone of (will+int)/2 +3d6 and a natural matrix reaction of intell(??
->no book handy)+3d6 no wonder they are the 'gods' of the matrix

Are otaku available as PC contacts? Assuming, of course, that the
PC has computer skills and a computer and spends a reasonable amount of
time in the Matrix.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 8
From: Wilbur The new adept <mad_bomb@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:32:01 PDT
> Are otaku available as PC contacts? Assuming, of course, that
the
>PC has computer skills and a computer and spends a reasonable amount of
>time in the Matrix.
dont see why not, i havent seen an archetype of one so you'd have to
get your Gm to make it, but if youve got all the right excuses in all
the right places...
of course they arn't the most mature of people, being all of them under
20 (i think- ED)...so getting them to actually do stuff for you would be
nigh impossible and they aint the most connected people, unlike most
deckers they dont spend their time getting the dirt on corps.
Mostly (again i believe- ED) that they explore the matrix and their
existance occaisonaly doing stuff for the deep resonance.
the question is what are they doing for the deep resonance
MRhaPPYTheSmilEYman

*just because i'm
ins@^*&$%(&#(^&$%UYVLJFO&^%()*&^%)P{(::::::::::posting
aborted, do not try to even think against the deep, have a nice day:)

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 9
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:56:22 -0400
yOn Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Wilbur The new adept wrote:

->> Are otaku available as PC contacts? Assuming, of course, that
->the
->>PC has computer skills and a computer and spends a reasonable amount of
->>time in the Matrix.
-> dont see why not, i havent seen an archetype of one so you'd have to
->get your Gm to make it, but if youve got all the right excuses in all
->the right places...
->of course they arn't the most mature of people, being all of them under
->20 (i think- ED)...so getting them to actually do stuff for you would be
->nigh impossible and they aint the most connected people, unlike most
->deckers they dont spend their time getting the dirt on corps.

Some of us happen to be good with children (even teenagers).
Thanks for the reply.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 10
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:49:03 +1000
<snip>
> Move-by-Wire and Synaptic Accellerator level 1 (+5d6
> initiative). Cybertech: page 57. The problem here is that *this is
> contradicted* by both the Synaptic Accellerator reference *and* the
> Move-by-Wire reference. I'm surprised this one slipped past me when I
> playtested it.
>
By this are you saying that Shadowtech says it wouldn't work, but
Cybertech says it would? If so (and that's how I've read it in the past)
that means it WOULD work, for the simple reason that Cybertech is a
later work as thus takes precedence. (I mean, it's a bit hard for
Shadowtech to say, 'Oh, and Synaptic Accelerators will work with
Move-by-Wire' when MbW wasn't published for years afterwards and
probably wasn't even a glint in FASA's eye at the time.)

> At least part of the problem is that this rule isn't a stated
> rule. It's a "rule by inference." If you look at all the references
> I've cited, you will note that there is no way to go past the +3d6
> barrier
> *except* in the two or three ways that I mentioned.
>
> Shadowmage
>
One last exception. A physad or a physmag (physical magician) with the
improved reflexes power and the improved reflexes spell locked or
quickened can reach as much as +6d6 total (level 3 in each). I
personally wouldn't allow it except in the most high powered campaigns -
but I don't think there's anything that rules it out.

Oh, and you have to realise, this doesn't mean that 4d6 is the most
initiative dice anyone can roll in most circumstances. Anyone or thing
with a base initiative greater than 1d6 (think shapeshifters, dragons,
vampires, etc.) can have a +3d6 boost (quickened or locked spell,
perhaps?) and still go over 4d6 initiative. Something for your crazed
street-sammies to think about...

Doc'
Message no. 11
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:55:27 +1000
> > Synaptic Accellerator (any level) and the Increase Reflexes
> > spell. The potential here is a maximum boost of +5d6. I'm not sure
> I'd
> > allow it, but the rules don't say it's impossible.
>
> Uh, actually the SR3 book on page 194 says:
>
> "Increased Reflexes is not compadible with any other type of increase
> to a
> subject's initiative dice..."
>
> -Bandit
>
Whoops! Really? That's new.

Well, I haven't got SR3 yet, so you can disregard most of my last post.
Unless, of course, you decide to treat the improved reflexes physad
power as a natural ability (same as any other creatures natural boosted
reflexes) - which is a matter of semantics, really - in that case, it
isn't technically an 'increase to a subject's initiative dice', so the
spell could then be cast on the physad. Semantics, though. If you're a
player you'd like that definition - if you're a GM, probably not. In any
case I think that definition should apply to paranormal creatures with
more than one initiative die. That's a perfectly natural thing, so they
should still be able to have the spell cast on them. Personally, I'd
save that for when you really need to put the fear of God into your
players.

Doc'
Message no. 12
From: Grahamdrew <mnemonic25@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:12:23 -0400
> Synaptic Accellerator (any level) and the Increase Reflexes
> spell. The potential here is a maximum boost of +5d6. I'm not sure I'd
> allow it, but the rules don't say it's impossible.

Actually, if you REALLY want to get munchy...

There is always the physad angle... a physad can get increased reflexes
(power) AND get someone to cast the increased reflexes power on him at
the same time.... for a final resault of +6d6, breaking the 5d6
barrier...

IN ADDITION:

A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneith the table
until all the rotting cabbage stops flying=- could get deltaware MBW 4,
deltaware and cultured Synaptic accelerator 2, plus the physad power for
a grand total of +9d6.... a tad higher than the supposid 5d6 barrier...

Grahamdrew, who surely must not be the only one who was in a "munchie
contest"
Message no. 13
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:32:19 +1000
> > Synaptic Accellerator (any level) and the Increase Reflexes
> > spell. The potential here is a maximum boost of +5d6. I'm not sure
> I'd
> > allow it, but the rules don't say it's impossible.
>
> Actually, if you REALLY want to get munchy...
>
> There is always the physad angle... a physad can get increased
> reflexes
> (power) AND get someone to cast the increased reflexes power on him at
> the same time.... for a final resault of +6d6, breaking the 5d6
> barrier...
>
> IN ADDITION:
>
> A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneith the
> table
> until all the rotting cabbage stops flying=- could get deltaware MBW
> 4,
> deltaware and cultured Synaptic accelerator 2, plus the physad power
> for
> a grand total of +9d6.... a tad higher than the supposid 5d6
> barrier...
>
> Grahamdrew, who surely must not be the only one who was in a "munchie
> contest"
>
Okay, munchie-boy...:)

I got SR3 yesterday (woohoo!) and it explicitly states that the physad
increased reflexes power is NOT compatible with ANY other magical or
cyber means of improving reaction. Now I can't remember the exact
wording, but it does mean that a physad (who chooses to go the magic
route, rather than blowing a lot of essence and magic on killer cyber)
can't ever get more that +3d6. He could however (if I read it right, and
I haven't read everything about physads yet) boost his reaction
attribute (not his initiative dice, though) with improved attribute
powers, muscle augmentation and the like or (possibly) reaction
enhancers.

Doc'
Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:18:53 -0500
>A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneith the table
>until all the rotting cabbage stops flying=- could get deltaware MBW 4,
>deltaware and cultured Synaptic accelerator 2, plus the physad power for
>a grand total of +9d6.... a tad higher than the supposid 5d6 barrier...

Actually, no. Put cyber in a physad and he starts losing magic, and thus
his powers.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 15
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:27:10 +1000
> >A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneith the
> table
> >until all the rotting cabbage stops flying=- could get deltaware MBW
> 4,
> >deltaware and cultured Synaptic accelerator 2, plus the physad power
> for
> >a grand total of +9d6.... a tad higher than the supposid 5d6
> barrier...
>
> Actually, no. Put cyber in a physad and he starts losing magic, and
> thus
> his powers.
>
> ---
> (>) Texas 2-Step
> El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
>
Duh. :)

He said 'kickass physad'. I believe he was referring to an initiated
physad (along the lines of Teachdaire from Prime Runners), who has magic
and essence to burn.

The only thing is that doesn't work anymore, according to SR3. But in
SR2, that's perfectly legal, as long as you're initiated high enough to
be able to absorb the magic loss.

Doc'
Message no. 16
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:24:20 -0400
Grahamdrew--

>A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneath
>the table until all the rotting cabbage stops flying=- could get
>deltaware MBW 4, deltaware and cultured Synaptic accelerator 2,
>plus the physad power for a grand total of +9d6.... a tad higher
>than the supposid 5d6 barrier...

No, he can't. First Ryan Mercury is a paranormal critter,
much like a Dragon. <g> Trying to implant cybernetics would be...
difficult, to say the least.
Second, MBW and Synaptic Accellerator 2 are incompatible,
period. Third, Synaptic Accellerator, being Bioware, is not
available in "Alpha,", "Beta," or "Delta" grades. Fourth,
even
Delta-grade MBW is not essence friendly. Fifth, just how many
geasa will our Initiated physad have to take because of this
insane operation? Because if he doesn't take any Geasa, he loses
his initiate grades for good, and he'll probably be magic-less.
And he's going to lose a lot of essence points, and therefore
magic points, so he probably won't have the magic points to
sustain the Increased Reflexes power.
Finally, in SR3, the Increased Reflexes power simply
doesn't work with any other form of initiative boosting, whether
it be a spell, a piece of Bioware, or a piece of Cyberware.
Nice munchkinism, though. <g>

Shadowmage
Message no. 17
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:26:15 -0500
>> Actually, no. Put cyber in a physad and he starts losing magic,
>> and thus his powers.
>
>He said 'kickass physad'. I believe he was referring to an initiated
>physad (along the lines of Teachdaire from Prime Runners), who has magic
>and essence to burn.

I don't care; he's still gonna lose magic to the cyber and the bioware, and
with that magic goes his power as an adept. Initiate all you want, you're
still going to lose power. You're trading one thing for another, and
there's not a lot of ways I can see to get around that.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:26:09 +1000
Doc writes:
> > >A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneith the
[snip]
> >
> > Actually, no. Put cyber in a physad and he starts losing magic, and
> > thus
> > his powers.
> Duh. :)
>
> He said 'kickass physad'. I believe he was referring to an initiated
> physad (along the lines of Teachdaire from Prime Runners), who has magic
> and essence to burn.
>
> The only thing is that doesn't work anymore, according to SR3. But in
> SR2, that's perfectly legal, as long as you're initiated high enough to
> be able to absorb the magic loss.

No it wasn't... combining magical reaction increases with tech wasn't legal
in SR2 anymore than it is in SR3. The rule was that different reaction
boosters did not mix (with the exception noted in Cybertechnology).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 19
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:29:55 +1000
> Grahamdrew--
>
> >A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneath
> >the table until all the rotting cabbage stops flying=- could get
> >deltaware MBW 4, deltaware and cultured Synaptic accelerator 2,
> >plus the physad power for a grand total of +9d6.... a tad higher
> >than the supposid 5d6 barrier...
>
> No, he can't. First Ryan Mercury is a paranormal critter,
> much like a Dragon. <g> Trying to implant cybernetics would be...
> difficult, to say the least.
>
Okay. Forget Ryan Mercury for now. Think any other hotshot physad.

> Second, MBW and Synaptic Accellerator 2 are incompatible,
> period.
>
True. Make in Synaptic One.

> Third, Synaptic Accellerator, being Bioware, is not
> available in "Alpha,", "Beta," or "Delta" grades.
>
He said CULTURED accelerator - I'm sure the Deltaware was a mistake. :)
Anyway, that's not possible. If anyone cared to check the rules, a
synaptic accelerator is NEURAL bioware. If you then look in the intro,
it mentions that any kind of neural bioware CANNOT be cultured - because
the baseline version are ALREADY cultured. Check it. It's there. But
forget that for now - as of this moment, you can mix MBW and Synaptic
Accelerator One.

> Fourth, even Delta-grade MBW is not essence friendly.
>
True. So? A physad with 0.1 essence is as magical as a physad with 6
essence - so long as he's got enough initiate grades to absorb the
essence/magic rating loss.

> Fifth, just how many
> geasa will our Initiated physad have to take because of this
> insane operation? Because if he doesn't take any Geasa, he loses
> his initiate grades for good, and he'll probably be magic-less.
>
Pfft! He's losing four, five essence tops! That's only 2 Geasa at most
(1 Geas per 2 magic points lost, rounded down). Not that much - and if
you're a high enough level initiate to be able to pull this off then you
can deal with a couple of geasa until you get yourself initiated a
couple more times and lose them.

> And he's going to lose a lot of essence points, and therefore
> magic points, so he probably won't have the magic points to
> sustain the Increased Reflexes power.
>
Look, if he's as high grade an initiate as Ryan Mercury would be (think
about it - Mercury had to be AT LEAST a 10, 15 or probably even 20th
grade initiate to have as many powers as he did), then four or five
essence and magic rating points is diddly-squat. That's the kind of
physad he's talking about, not your starting Joe Physad.

> Finally, in SR3, the Increased Reflexes power simply
> doesn't work with any other form of initiative boosting, whether
> it be a spell, a piece of Bioware, or a piece of Cyberware.
>
Okay, pay attention. I myself, and a number of other people, have
already pointed this out multiple times. It's perfectly valid in SRII,
though and I think that's where Andy was coming from.

> Nice munchkinism, though. <g>
>
> Shadowmage
>
That's no lie.

Doc'
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:36:19 +1000
Ratinac writes:
> Okay, pay attention. I myself, and a number of other people, have
> already pointed this out multiple times. It's perfectly valid in SRII,
> though and I think that's where Andy was coming from.

*cough* No, it wasn't. You could not mix different types of reaction
enhancements in SRII (with the exception noted in Cybertechnology).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 21
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:39:27 +1000
> >> Actually, no. Put cyber in a physad and he starts losing magic,
> >> and thus his powers.
> >
> >He said 'kickass physad'. I believe he was referring to an initiated
> >physad (along the lines of Teachdaire from Prime Runners), who has
> magic
> >and essence to burn.
>
> I don't care; he's still gonna lose magic to the cyber and the
> bioware, and
> with that magic goes his power as an adept. Initiate all you want,
> you're
> still going to lose power. You're trading one thing for another, and
> there's not a lot of ways I can see to get around that.
>
*sigh* Just check what I said in my last post. We're talking here about
a physad of high enough initiation grade that, yes, although he'll lose
power, he'll only be losing a fraction of his total. No, you can't get
around that, but you can do it if you want. THAT'S the point of the
discussion - is it possible, not is it wise.

Personally, I'd never do it, but then, I like purist physads. Actually
buying Wired Reflexes, especially if they're Beta or Delta grade, was a
very good trade off for a physad under SRII rules. The wires made you
faster than the equivalent physad power and they were more 'magic
rating' friendly (not essence) than the power. Think about it - under
SRII rules, Increased Reflexes 3 gave you +3d6 and cost 6 magic points.
Didn't cost any essence, but that's not the point. On the other hand, if
a physad bought Beta Wired Reflexes 3 (about the best your average Joe
is ever going to come across), that's going to give him +6, +3d6 AND
it'll only cost him 3 points of magic (although it'll also cost 3 points
of essence). Fair trade, neh?

Even under SR3 rules there are some advantages and disadvantages to this
approach - although like I said, I'd never go that way. Still, you can
do it, at least under SRII rules.

Doc'
Message no. 22
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:41:51 +1000
> Doc writes:
> > > >A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneith
> the
> [snip]
> > >
> > > Actually, no. Put cyber in a physad and he starts losing magic,
> and
> > > thus
> > > his powers.
> > Duh. :)
> >
> > He said 'kickass physad'. I believe he was referring to an initiated
> > physad (along the lines of Teachdaire from Prime Runners), who has
> magic
> > and essence to burn.
> >
> > The only thing is that doesn't work anymore, according to SR3. But
> in
> > SR2, that's perfectly legal, as long as you're initiated high enough
> to
> > be able to absorb the magic loss.
>
> No it wasn't... combining magical reaction increases with tech wasn't
> legal
> in SR2 anymore than it is in SR3. The rule was that different reaction
> boosters did not mix (with the exception noted in Cybertechnology).
>
> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
>
Whoops, sorry. Robert is right. Discard a lot of what I was saying
before. :) Keep anything about metal OR magic.

However, he could still get similar effects (under SRII rules) from
physad powers plus spells.

Sorry about that silly rant. :)

Doc'
Message no. 23
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:53:21 +1000
> > Okay, pay attention. I myself, and a number of other people, have
> > already pointed this out multiple times. It's perfectly valid in
> SRII,
> > though and I think that's where Andy was coming from.
>
> *cough* No, it wasn't. You could not mix different types of reaction
> enhancements in SRII (with the exception noted in Cybertechnology).
>
> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
>
Hey, I already admitted I made a mistake. :) You could still get a
physad (or physmag) raging along at +7d6 total initiative - or a sammie
with the like and an increase cybered reaction spell. Under the SR3
rules, though (what I've read, anyway), the 5d6 barrier stands.

Doc'
Message no. 24
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:00:35 +1000
Ratinac writes:
> > > Okay, pay attention. I myself, and a number of other people, have
> > > already pointed this out multiple times. It's perfectly valid in
> > SRII,
> > > though and I think that's where Andy was coming from.
> >
> > *cough* No, it wasn't. You could not mix different types of reaction
> > enhancements in SRII (with the exception noted in Cybertechnology).
>
> Hey, I already admitted I made a mistake. :) You could still get a
> physad (or physmag) raging along at +7d6 total initiative - or a sammie
> with the like and an increase cybered reaction spell. Under the SR3
> rules, though (what I've read, anyway), the 5d6 barrier stands.

Three points:
a) You hadn't admitted it when I sent out that mail. :)

b) You can't mix ANY different types of reaction enhancements. So if you
have a physad with boosted reaction, he can't be the target of an Increase
Reflexes spell.

c) There's no such thing as an Increase Cybered Reflexes spell (this is a
flow-on effect of b).

Have a nice day.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 25
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:07:24 +1000
> > > > Okay, pay attention. I myself, and a number of other people,
> have
> > > > already pointed this out multiple times. It's perfectly valid in
> > > SRII,
> > > > though and I think that's where Andy was coming from.
> > >
> > > *cough* No, it wasn't. You could not mix different types of
> reaction
> > > enhancements in SRII (with the exception noted in
> Cybertechnology).
> >
> > Hey, I already admitted I made a mistake. :) You could still get a
> > physad (or physmag) raging along at +7d6 total initiative - or a
> sammie
> > with the like and an increase cybered reaction spell. Under the SR3
> > rules, though (what I've read, anyway), the 5d6 barrier stands.
>
> Three points:
> a) You hadn't admitted it when I sent out that mail. :)
>
True. :)

> b) You can't mix ANY different types of reaction enhancements. So if
> you
> have a physad with boosted reaction, he can't be the target of an
> Increase
> Reflexes spell.
>
> c) There's no such thing as an Increase Cybered Reflexes spell (this
> is a
> flow-on effect of b).
>
<Robert Watkins>

Er, if you read what I said above carefully, you will notice that I was
talking SRII. I didn't explicitly state that, but it's fairly obvious.
And in SRII, your points b) and c) are incorrect. At least, b) is. I
might be wrong about c). I know there are 'increase cybered attributes'
spells in SRII, but I can't remember if there's an 'increase cybered
reaction'. Can anyone clear that one up for me? I'm posting from work,
so you'll have to forgive me if I occasionally slip up.

Doc'
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:14:41 +1000
Ratinac writes:
> > b) You can't mix ANY different types of reaction enhancements. So if
> > you
> > have a physad with boosted reaction, he can't be the target of an
> > Increase
> > Reflexes spell.
> >
> > c) There's no such thing as an Increase Cybered Reflexes spell (this
> > is a
> > flow-on effect of b).
> >
> <Robert Watkins>
>
> Er, if you read what I said above carefully, you will notice that I was
> talking SRII. I didn't explicitly state that, but it's fairly obvious.
> And in SRII, your points b) and c) are incorrect. At least, b) is. I
> might be wrong about c). I know there are 'increase cybered attributes'
> spells in SRII, but I can't remember if there's an 'increase cybered
> reaction'. Can anyone clear that one up for me? I'm posting from work,
> so you'll have to forgive me if I occasionally slip up.

I only play SRII... I can't yet spare the money to pick up SR3 (at $AU50,
it's a bit too steep for me right now).

In SRII, the rule, handed down from on high, is that you can not mix and
match different types of reaction increases. Only the most powerful one is
used.

There are Increase Cybered <attribute> +x spells, but it is stated in that
section that there is no Increase Cybered Reaction spell. This is because
you can't mix and match different types of reaction increases.

(I post from work too... I know what it's like).

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 27
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:24:34 +1000
> > Er, if you read what I said above carefully, you will notice that I
> was
> > talking SRII. I didn't explicitly state that, but it's fairly
> obvious.
> > And in SRII, your points b) and c) are incorrect. At least, b) is. I
> > might be wrong about c). I know there are 'increase cybered
> attributes'
> > spells in SRII, but I can't remember if there's an 'increase cybered
> > reaction'. Can anyone clear that one up for me? I'm posting from
> work,
> > so you'll have to forgive me if I occasionally slip up.
>
> I only play SRII... I can't yet spare the money to pick up SR3 (at
> $AU50,
> it's a bit too steep for me right now).
>
> In SRII, the rule, handed down from on high, is that you can not mix
> and
> match different types of reaction increases. Only the most powerful
> one is
> used.
>
> There are Increase Cybered <attribute> +x spells, but it is stated in
> that
> section that there is no Increase Cybered Reaction spell. This is
> because
> you can't mix and match different types of reaction increases.
>
> (I post from work too... I know what it's like).
>
> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
>
Really? Where did that come from?

Doc'
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:30:19 +1000
Ratinac writes:
> Really? Where did that come from?
>
> Doc'

The list argued about it for a year or two. We asked the DLoH. He said you
couldn't do it, the errata was updated to reflect the ruling, and it was
meant to be put into an SRII sourcebook (buggered if I remember which).
Which is why you can't do it in SR3.

There is (or should be) a page reference somewhere, but I don't know where.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 29
From: Wilbur The new adept <mad_bomb@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:54:58 PDT
>Really? Where did that come from?

>Doc'
Grimoire 2 inferred it could be done with spell design, and none of
the metal enhancements said thay were incompatible with magic so you
could stack +cybered reaction onto move by 4. Of course we all play with
SR3 now dont we?
MRhaPPYThESMilEYman


*Just because i'm insane doesnt mean i'm insane* -wilbur


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 30
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:55:01 -0400
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:

<Snip Munchie example ending at 9d6 init....>
->Okay, munchie-boy...:)
->
->I got SR3 yesterday (woohoo!) and it explicitly states that the physad
->increased reflexes power is NOT compatible with ANY other magical or
->cyber means of improving reaction. Now I can't remember the exact
->wording, but it does mean that a physad (who chooses to go the magic
->route, rather than blowing a lot of essence and magic on killer cyber)
->can't ever get more that +3d6. He could however (if I read it right, and
->I haven't read everything about physads yet) boost his reaction
->attribute (not his initiative dice, though) with improved attribute
->powers, muscle augmentation and the like or (possibly) reaction
->enhancers.

He was speaking of SR2, hence not having the [SR3] caption in the
subject title. You are correct, however, about SR3's max init dice.
Guess FASA decided to trim the munchies.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 31
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:13:29 -0400
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

->>A really kickass physad like... Ryan Mercury -=runs underneith the table
->>until all the rotting cabbage stops flying=- could get deltaware MBW 4,
->>deltaware and cultured Synaptic accelerator 2, plus the physad power for
->>a grand total of +9d6.... a tad higher than the supposid 5d6 barrier...
->
->Actually, no. Put cyber in a physad and he starts losing magic, and thus
->his powers.

I had (because my players were starting to get munchie) put
together a physad initiate with Wired 3 & A quickened increase cybered
Reflexes 3 spell for the +9d6 initiative stated above. Killed all the PCs
"assistance" and most of their toys, but I left the characters alive to
fear the gang boss that just killed like a whirlwind. He was a 6th grade
initiate and had no other cyber than the (non-grade) Wired 3. He did have
a low-level killing hands (M I think). Attributes were all 5s, skills
were 5's, but he gave the PCs all sortsa hell. The only munchie thing
about this adept was the 6th grade initiate, and if I was ever
interrogated by the players I'd say there's more going on in the gangs
than they're allowed to know and leave it at that.
Needless to say, my gangs got more respect from the players and
their characters.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 32
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:49:25 -0400
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:

<Whappy snip>
->Er, if you read what I said above carefully, you will notice that I was
->talking SRII. I didn't explicitly state that, but it's fairly obvious.
->And in SRII, your points b) and c) are incorrect. At least, b) is. I
->might be wrong about c). I know there are 'increase cybered attributes'
->spells in SRII, but I can't remember if there's an 'increase cybered
->reaction'. Can anyone clear that one up for me? I'm posting from work,
->so you'll have to forgive me if I occasionally slip up.

You are correct, there is such a spell in SR2. Even in the spell
creation rules in the back of the Grimoire it specifically states how to
handle cybered reaction and reflex enhancements.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 33
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Maximum Initiative Boost
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:49:20 -0400
Patrick Goodman wrote:
>
> I don't care; he's still gonna lose magic to the cyber and the bioware, and
> with that magic goes his power as an adept. Initiate all you want, you're
> still going to lose power. You're trading one thing for another, and
> there's not a lot of ways I can see to get around that.

But when you "initiate all you want" you get *more* power. >8->

I looked up Teachdaire last night. He was a Grade 9 Initiate. After his
cyber and bioware, that barely covered his Increased Reflexes 3. That elf
is an absolute monster.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

Further Reading

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