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From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Melee and Unarmed combat, and Speed
Date:	Mon, 8 May 1995 21:10:58 +1000

Message no. 1 Hmprfg! Gee I loathe our sysmonsters. Anyway, here is a message which I
prepared a few days ago, and didn't ever get to post, thanks to the dullards
who claim to run our system. I've been most annoyed as I have been unable to
reply to the list for almost a week now (withdrawal symptoms are starting...
:-)). But, some good (well, maybe not) has come of it. I have realised just
how much time I have been spending (I won't say wasting, it wasn't) on email
and the 'net. And I have decided that it is time for me to begin lurking,
and not to reply to absolutely every post which intrests me, hard as it may
be.

Anyways, here's my old message, with a couple of additions:

OK. I've now read all the posts on melee/unarmed skills and reactions and so
forth, but have been unable to reply before now as we have incompetent
sysmonsters :-(. Anyway, I have a few comments to make.

As Bob rightly guessed, I have no competitive experience. However, this
isn't going to stop me commenting <grin>. In a short time I shall draw on
Bob's personal excperience. But first I have a few other things to say.

Bob, and others, keep quoting martial artists (such as Bruce Lee and Bob's
teacher, Steve) who are able to attack with extreme speed (2-4 times as fast
as as lesser skilled person [I hesitate to say "skilled" but can't think of
an appropriate alternative, perhaps "able" or "capable" - I mean it in
the
general sense, not the SR sense]).

As far as SR is concerned, this does not happen. The best initiative a person
nowadays could get is 9+1D6. This, averaged out, gives such a person 11/6
actions to a normal human's one. That isn't quite 2 to the slower person's
one, but it is close enough. And before someone says something like "the book
says that there were physical adepts before the awakening, and cites badass
martial artists as an example", I'll say "really, and you beleive in
magic?" <sarcasm severly intended>

Thus, in SR, this superlative speed of attack/defence must be due to skill,
as it cannot be due to their higher initiative.

So, at the moment, I shall say that SR incorporates such feats of quick
punching/blocking/kicking et cetera into the skill rating of the character.
Not into their Quickness/Intelligence/Reaction stats or their initiative.

This sounds all hunky dory until we come across someone who actually has
personal knowledge of the field, and finds the SR rules inadequate. This
actually happens in just about every aspect of the rules. I know many people
feel the SR weapon ranges, for example, are incorrect, because they have
actually used weapons at longer ranges. I also have a friend who is a trained
paramedic, and he finds the SR first aid and damage rules woefully
inadequate.

Now, when we come to a situation such as Bob describes, which can basically
be summarised as "if this speed is incorporated into the skill Rating, then
what about people with wired reflexes and similar? They get the speed, but
not the knowledge." This wouldn't be so much of a problem if there was not
ways to increase your initiatce so vastly (ie, assuming the SR "all this is
included in the skill" works OK for the present day when most combatants
will be of a similar initiative), without increasing your skill (I mean
"pure" skill here, not SR skill. Skill as in theoretical knowledge of the
moves/art.).

And before you say something like "There is a purple belt in the club I am a
part of. She is just downright slow. I can kick her butt on speed alone,
even if she is several ranks higher then me, and effectively knows all the
moves better. *shrug*", I would say that such a person, in SR terms, has a
lower skill than you. SR cannot exactly duplicate the real world. To do so
is impossible. To get a close approximation would require so much
mathematics that the game would be worse than 3rd year maths. So the
designers did a bit of fudging and skimping as they had to, and created a
managable system. [Note I say "managable, not "accurate".]

As support to the above argument, and to argue against Bob's "If I work hard
enough to make myself faster/stronger/whatever, I'm not limited to my skill
in martial arts (i.e. I am faster/stronger/whatever in everything I do now,
whether I got that from martial arts training or not).", I'll give an
example of a special skill anyone can learn. Touchtyping. You gain extreme
speed and quickness through learning this skill. But is it a gain in
physical attribuites? No. Only when you use the skill are you a heck of a
lot faster than a normal person (ie one without the touchtyping skill, or one
with a lower touchtyping skill).

Now lets move onto martial arts. You gain a skill in martcial arts, now you
can do speedy punches and such which normal people cannot. Does this
neccessarily mean you have a higher Quickness or Reaction Attribute? No.
Just like the increase in speed due to touchtyping will not mean that I can
do the 100m dash any faster, nor does the increase in my martial arts skill.
However, in RL, as opposed to SR, when one increases one's martial arts
skill, one tends to improve one's associated physical and mental attributes
too. Just like when one learns touchtyping, one probably gains a skill in
computing. Hence the asociated training will allow the martial artist to be
quicker/stronger and so on (but not the touchtypist), and the asociated
training the topuchtypist does will allow him to use a computer better (but
not the martial artist).

And Bob, when you say "In Shadowrun terms... skills represent knowledge.
High skill = high knowledge of the art", you are completely wrong. Why do
you think it is called an "active" skill? Because you actively do something
with it. It is the skill which allows you to do the particular activity
_in_practice_. Knowledge skills represent pure theory. Those people you
quote who have very good knowledge of martial arts will have a skill similar
to a knowledge skill in thei respective martial art, and probably a lower
active skill. Those who may have less knowledge but more "speed", and hence
are better when it comes to a fight, will have a higher active skill rating.
At least in SR terms.

[Slight intervention. One could always take the "there are modern day
martial artists who can do stuff 4 times as fast as I", and turn it into an
argument that the SR initiative system is innacurate. One simply assumes
that the SR martial arts skill does not include the ability to do fast
punches etc, and that this is as a result of the increased reaction speed of
the martial artist, and unassociated with the skill. Then you'd have to
create a fix for the initiative rules, wich would be difficult to say the
least.]

Now, back to your regualrly scheduled programming. In SR it is possible to
artificially gain great speed. And, based on Bob's explanations of martial
arts, such an increase in speed _would_ allow them to fight better (more
specifically, it would make it more difficult for their opponent to block,
and the expected damage would increase, due to the higher velocity with which
the incoming blow would be moving).

With SR=RL (ie using SR rules to model the current day) this is included in
the skill rating (ie, those with the faster punch get more dice, since they
will have a higher SR skill Rating, which both increases their chance of
hitting, and increases the expected damage). With SR and it's wired reflxes,
this has not been included. The assumption with the unarmed combat skill is
that qualities such as attack velocity, speed and such are included in the
skill Rating. But when a person with wired reflexes attacks, their attack
shall have a higher speed. This, therefore, means Marek Telgarsky's
suggestion of adding dice to the success test of the faster combatant is
quite a good one (sorry for knocking it bafore Marek, but as of then I had
not thought this through just as thoroughly as I have now).

What I would be thinking of would be an addition to the dice for the faster
combatant. These dice would neither be skill dice, nor Combat Pool dice,
they would be in addition to both of these. The exact number of dice I am
unsure of, but I was thinking either 2 (3?) dice for each action the faster
combatant has over the slower one, or 1 dice for each two points of reaction
the faster combatant has over the slower one (maybe for each point, but it
gets mighty dangerous, and people like The Zen Master physical adepts who
are moderately fast and extremely skillful will get shat on by a practically
unskilled Mr Speedy Sammy). But if that's the way you want it, then I guess
that's OK.

Anyway, I thank Bob for bringing this point of consideration up, as I had
never come across it before (well, I'd wondered once or twice, but never had
anyone who could act as a reference for me). As for the ideas on rules for
particular martial arts, I agree that the specialisation of Unarmed Combat
which they now are should be changed (the more for less syndrome), but I
don't feel any type of indepth fix is needed. If you or your team have
personal knowledge, then I feel it's a good idea to make a personal fix, but
I can never see myself using a complex set of rules for martial arts when
neither I nor my players have any knowledge of said arts. It just promotes
munchkinism, and is a drag on the game. For those who know what it's all
about however, I think such a set of rules is a good idea. But for the sake
of us without the knowledge, nor the care to get it, I think any such set of
rules should be very abstracted and very simple (else nobody'll ever use
them).

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

From:	Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: Melee and Unarmed combat, and Speed
Date:	Mon, 8 May 1995 17:31:30 -0500

Message no. 2 >As far as SR is concerned, this does not happen. The best initiative a person
>nowadays could get is 9+1D6. This, averaged out, gives such a person 11/6
>actions to a normal human's one. That isn't quite 2 to the slower person's
>one, but it is close enough.

If SR represented it realistically, that wouldn't be true... Is one of my
main points.

>Thus, in SR, this superlative speed of attack/defence must be due to skill,
>as it cannot be due to their higher initiative.

Nope, higher stats. Speed is a stat. Skills are knowledge (check your
book, it's in there).

>So, at the moment, I shall say that SR incorporates such feats of quick
>punching/blocking/kicking et cetera into the skill rating of the character.
>Not into their Quickness/Intelligence/Reaction stats or their initiative.

And I would disagree... skillful attacks (good form) is incorporated into
skill. Like I said, there's lots of people who can put up a nice kata, but
can't do much but wait to kiss the ground in a competition because they lack
the attributes.

>Now, when we come to a situation such as Bob describes, which can basically
>be summarised as "if this speed is incorporated into the skill Rating, then
>what about people with wired reflexes and similar? They get the speed, but
>not the knowledge." This wouldn't be so much of a problem if there was not
>ways to increase your initiatce so vastly (ie, assuming the SR "all this is
>included in the skill" works OK for the present day when most combatants
>will be of a similar initiative), without increasing your skill (I mean
>"pure" skill here, not SR skill. Skill as in theoretical knowledge of the
>moves/art.).

In answer to that question, I pose another question. Two fighters of no
skill face off. One is incredibly fast while the other is just normal.
Who's going to win? And how bad will the beating be? Now start giving the
normal guy skill... how much will it take to compensate for the speed of the
other guy? I honestly don't think he can unless he trains physically,
thereby increasing his overall reflexes/reactions/strength/etc (attributes).

>As support to the above argument, and to argue against Bob's "If I work hard
>enough to make myself faster/stronger/whatever, I'm not limited to my skill
>in martial arts (i.e. I am faster/stronger/whatever in everything I do now,
>whether I got that from martial arts training or not).", I'll give an
>example of a special skill anyone can learn. Touchtyping. You gain extreme
>speed and quickness through learning this skill. But is it a gain in
>physical attribuites? No. Only when you use the skill are you a heck of a
>lot faster than a normal person (ie one without the touchtyping skill, or one
>with a lower touchtyping skill).

(rubs hands together with evil glee) Touchtyping's a skill. Why? Because
it only concentrates and effects one single area. The person's fingers.
Physical training for combat (martial arts competitions, whatever) effects
everything. Reading the stuff in a book does not. Knowing how to do it
does not. Practicing until your body is able to do the things effectively
is. Thus, as it affects the body as a whole and not just one's fingers,
such practice is attribute enhancing.

>Now lets move onto martial arts. You gain a skill in martcial arts, now you
>can do speedy punches and such which normal people cannot. Does this
>neccessarily mean you have a higher Quickness or Reaction Attribute? No.

Ummm. If you can't move fast, and you learn a punch in martial arts class.
It isn't going to move fast either. So yes should be the answer...

>Just like the increase in speed due to touchtyping will not mean that I can
>do the 100m dash any faster, nor does the increase in my martial arts skill.

No, but it might help out your ability with chopsticks ;^)

>However, in RL, as opposed to SR, when one increases one's martial arts
>skill, one tends to improve one's associated physical and mental attributes
>too. Just like when one learns touchtyping, one probably gains a skill in
>computing. Hence the asociated training will allow the martial artist to be
>quicker/stronger and so on (but not the touchtypist), and the asociated
>training the topuchtypist does will allow him to use a computer better (but
>not the martial artist).

You ever seen data entry people (I work with tons of them...)? Clueless as
to anything except how to enter things into a computer. They can't use it
any better, just enter things fast.

>[Bob was wrong about skills = knowledge]

Page 42 SRII rulebook. Under Attributes/Intelligence.

"Intelligence represents the overall quickness of mind, aptitude, and the
ability to perceive surroundings. Knowledge is represented by skills, so a
stupid character would have low Skill Ratings, and not necessarily low
Intelligence."

>[Slight intervention. One could always take the "there are modern day
>martial artists who can do stuff 4 times as fast as I", and turn it into an
>argument that the SR initiative system is innacurate. One simply assumes
>that the SR martial arts skill does not include the ability to do fast
>punches etc, and that this is as a result of the increased reaction speed of
>the martial artist, and unassociated with the skill. Then you'd have to
>create a fix for the initiative rules, wich would be difficult to say the
>least.]

Shadowrun martial arts don't exist except as net.rules and an honorable
mention in SRII.

>Now, back to your regualrly scheduled programming. In SR it is possible to
>artificially gain great speed. And, based on Bob's explanations of martial
>arts, such an increase in speed _would_ allow them to fight better (more
>specifically, it would make it more difficult for their opponent to block,
>and the expected damage would increase, due to the higher velocity with which
>the incoming blow would be moving).

Very much so... please continue

>With SR=RL (ie using SR rules to model the current day) this is included in
>the skill rating (ie, those with the faster punch get more dice, since they
>will have a higher SR skill Rating, which both increases their chance of
>hitting, and increases the expected damage).

I'll argue against that til the day I die or until the day that a 90 year
old crippled Shao Lin monk beats a prime athlete of solid skill (but still
nowhere near the skill that said monk would have... that guy's been doing it
for probably 80 years or more!) in a full contact competition...

>[adding dice for speed idea wasn't so bad after all]

Yes... speed becomes (or starts to anyway) a more important factor, which it
is in reality.

>[unarmed combat needs to be changed, but kept simple]

I couldn't agree with you more. Getting a semi-simple system arranged was
like pulling teeth from the more martially inclined members of our group who
wished a description of every single attack/defense variation and different
rules for each. What I came up with adds rules, and any time that's done
things can get complicated (even if it's just a slight change). My second
system (which I consider to be the best, btw) is just have your players
explain why their character has an unarmed skill of 6. Not too many
out-and-out brawlers are going to have that kind of ability. Chances are
they see themselves as martial artists of a sort (which can mean brawling...
though it's not the prettiest of arts) and they'll tell you what they think
their character can do. Roleplaying wins out and everyone's happy. I,
personally, will be throwing in a speed rule for our campaign (probably
anyway) and may or may not use the martial arts rules (version 1) I've been
working on. They need testing before they get used in any campaign.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>

From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Melee and Unarmed combat, and Speed
Date:	Thu, 11 May 1995 19:36:29 +1000

Message no. 3 OK, I read all of your stuff Bob, and started a huge long reply, then had to
break in the middle for dinner. Now I'm back, and I've decided to toss all
that crap.

I've thought up a mechanic that might make you happy. Use a Stat+Skill
system. Like CP2020. For unarmed attacks, one adds together
Reaction+Unarmed, and rolls. Remove the Combat Pool dice limit, so that
someone with a low skill can still roll their entire Combat Pool in an
attack.

This is for you, blowed if I'd ever use it. The reason I think you'll like
it, is because you believe that a skill equals pure knowledge. This is where
we differ. I think that a skill equals the ability of a person to perform a
given task. So, in the case of Unarmed Combat, the skill rating encompasses
more than just "good form", it is the overall ability of the person to make
an effective unarmed attack. But, you disagree, and if you want, then that's
fine. But you may encounter problems with similar circumstances and other
skills.

And you remember your quote? It says that knowledge is represented by
skills, not Intelligence, but it does not say that ability is not
represented by skills. I say ability is represented by skills. And besides,
skills _can_ reduce the time taken to complete tasks, see the rules on page
68. Therefore someone with a high skill and low Intelligence will probably
complete an academic task very quickly, low Int or not, contrary to what you
say.

As for the initiative system, well, obviously it is wrong, as no such thing
really exists in RL (qualifying initiative is a little tricky, as it is
purely a game mechanic), but you'd be asking for trouble if you tried to
redesign it, so I'd say just to leave it and accept it.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

From:	Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: Melee and Unarmed combat, and Speed
Date:	Thu, 11 May 1995 17:48:36 -0500

Message no. 4 >OK, I read all of your stuff Bob, and started a huge long reply, then had to
>break in the middle for dinner. Now I'm back, and I've decided to toss all
>that crap.

(praises what gods there are) ;^P

>I've thought up a mechanic that might make you happy. Use a Stat+Skill
>system. Like CP2020. For unarmed attacks, one adds together
>Reaction+Unarmed, and rolls. Remove the Combat Pool dice limit, so that
>someone with a low skill can still roll their entire Combat Pool in an
>attack.

Kinda what I had before except that goes further. Now that I realize how
combat pools work, melee combat isn't nearly as bad as I had previously
thought. The first attack still gets mauled, so maybe I'd throw in a target
number bonus equal to the difference in actions for the turn (if "A" goes 3
times and "B" goes once, then "A" gets a -2 to his target number).
Alternately, dice can be added in equal amounts. I wouldn't do either
without a lot of playtesting though, and frankly, I'd be more pratial to the
"alternate" method.

>[stuff about how I see skills/stats and how Damian sees them]

We agree to disagree... it's a judgement call.

>And you remember your quote? It says that knowledge is represented by
>skills, not Intelligence, but it does not say that ability is not
>represented by skills. I say ability is represented by skills.

Going by what's NOT in the book is definitely a judgement call and one
you've made your way. I prefer to stay away from that because players can
get nasty-munchy tendencies from sush an example.

>As for the initiative system, well, obviously it is wrong, as no such thing
>really exists in RL (qualifying initiative is a little tricky, as it is
>purely a game mechanic), but you'd be asking for trouble if you tried to
>redesign it, so I'd say just to leave it and accept it.

Didn't want to redesign it, merely state that it was wrong so it couldn't be
used as a basis against my argument. Tactical debating <G>.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>

From:	Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Melee and Unarmed combat, and Speed
Date:	Sat, 13 May 1995 13:42:56 +1000

Message no. 5 >>As far as SR is concerned, this does not happen. The best initiative a person
>>nowadays could get is 9+1D6. This, averaged out, gives such a person 11/6
>>actions to a normal human's one. That isn't quite 2 to the slower person's
>>one, but it is close enough.
>
>If SR represented it realistically, that wouldn't be true... Is one of my
>main points.

That's twice as many Shadowrun actions; not twice as many blows. p.100:
"Melee combat in *Shadowrun* assumes that some maneuvering occurs as
part part of the actual combat. Each attack is not a single blow, but a
series of moves and counter-moves executed by those involved."

Obviously, if you could only move once in 3 seconds, you'd be floored by
just about anyone. I see a Shadowrun action phase as being an opportunity
to regain your balance (mental and physical), decide on a course of action
and carry it out. Thus, a person with wired reflexes is not necessarily
physically faster (that would require much more strength), but these
opportunities are more frequent, and some (to all, depending on level) of
their nerves are electronically fast.

>>So, at the moment, I shall say that SR incorporates such feats of quick
>>punching/blocking/kicking et cetera into the skill rating of the character.
>>Not into their Quickness/Intelligence/Reaction stats or their initiative.
>
>And I would disagree... skillful attacks (good form) is incorporated into
>skill. Like I said, there's lots of people who can put up a nice kata, but
>can't do much but wait to kiss the ground in a competition because they lack
>the attributes.

I would agree that good form is included in skill, but I would disagree that
*only* good form is included in the skill. Such a person's skill would
probably be modelled by a Specialisation in the appropriate kata, with the
limitation that it's not much good in an actual fight. A more competent
fighter might have a Concentration in that martial art, meaning a bit less
skill in the kata, but more ability to stay in a competition.

>>However, in RL, as opposed to SR, when one increases one's martial arts
>>skill, one tends to improve one's associated physical and mental attributes
>>too. Just like when one learns touchtyping, one probably gains a skill in
>>computing. Hence the asociated training will allow the martial artist to be
>>quicker/stronger and so on (but not the touchtypist), and the asociated
>>training the topuchtypist does will allow him to use a computer better (but
>>not the martial artist).
>
>You ever seen data entry people (I work with tons of them...)? Clueless as
>to anything except how to enter things into a computer. They can't use it
>any better, just enter things fast.

(I am a data entry operator, watch it!)

Consider the converse: When one practices one's computer skill, one
generally learns how to type more quickly. It's not a requirement of being
good at programming, of diagnosing problems or designing systems. However,
the associated practice does allow him to type faster. (Which is why I am a
data entry operator. I got promoted to it on my 2nd day at work.)

>Page 42 SRII rulebook. Under Attributes/Intelligence.
>
>"Intelligence represents the overall quickness of mind, aptitude, and the
>ability to perceive surroundings. Knowledge is represented by skills, so a
>stupid character would have low Skill Ratings, and not necessarily low
>Intelligence."

Note that this paragraph is saying that knowledge is represented by some
skills, not that all skills represent is knowledge.

>>With SR=RL (ie using SR rules to model the current day) this is included in
>>the skill rating (ie, those with the faster punch get more dice, since they
>>will have a higher SR skill Rating, which both increases their chance of
>>hitting, and increases the expected damage).
>
>I'll argue against that til the day I die or until the day that a 90 year
>old crippled Shao Lin monk beats a prime athlete of solid skill (but still
>nowhere near the skill that said monk would have... that guy's been doing it
>for probably 80 years or more!) in a full contact competition...

Anyone who is crippled probably has at least a +2 modifier in the success
test, and the stereotypical 90 year old man would have Strength 1 and Body
1. Say the athlete has skill 6 (concentrated in something or other), and
the monk has skill 18 (concentrated in Shao Lin, of course). Say they both
have Combat Pool 6. The athlete uses 12 dice with TN# 4; the monk uses say
24 with TN# 6. The athlete averages 6 successes, the monk 4. The athlete
wins, and the monk attempts to resist, getting (if lucky) 1 success from
body. The monk takes M stun, adding a further +2 to target numbers, and
it's all downhill from there.

>system (which I consider to be the best, btw) is just have your players
>explain why their character has an unarmed skill of 6. Not too many
>out-and-out brawlers are going to have that kind of ability. Chances are
>they see themselves as martial artists of a sort (which can mean brawling...
>though it's not the prettiest of arts) and they'll tell you what they think
>their character can do. Roleplaying wins out and everyone's happy.

I like it. We do this anyway (not just for melee skills). What I do in my
games is to give concentrations and specialisations a disadvantage (for a
given rating) by making them only useful in defence against the next higher
category.
I do not know enough about the individual styles to define bonuses and
penalties, so if you take a specialisation in an art (specific technique),
it's only useful against other attacks from that art. If you concentrate in
an art, it's useful against any unarmed attack. The general skill allows
you to defend against armed attacks. If one of my players wants something
special for their favourite martial art, they can invent it themselves

--
Tim Little

From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Melee and Unarmed combat, and Speed
Date:	Sun, 14 May 1995 02:47:02 +1000

Message no. 6 Bob Ooton writes:

> >[stuff about how I see skills/stats and how Damian sees them]
>
> We agree to disagree... it's a judgement call.

It's a judgement call, for sure. But you need to consider things when making
it. I do not think that all skills represent _only_ pure knowledge, else
there would not be a class of skills called "knowledge skills", and another
classes of skills called "active skills". Take a language, for example, you
reason that someone with a language skill has all the knowledge of the
language, but no practical experience. I find this extremely difficult to
believe, I doubt one could learn a language without actually practicing, and
making the pronunciation sounds (I've never learned another language, but I
think this is pretty obvious, correct me if I'm wrong).

Likewise active skills, there is no way that someone with a thrown weapons
skill merely has all the knowledge of how to throw a knife. Heck, the
knowledge of throwing a knife is based on physics - I, who've never done it,
know all the theory. But I really doubt I'd be able to toss a knife with
any accuracy at all. Whereas someone with extensive practive in throwing a
knife will be good at it. They have application ability, not neccessarily
theoretical knowledge, and in SR terms, they have a better skill.

In the case of unarmed combat, the skill encompasses all the factors which
go into making a successful attack. One of which is "good form", another of
which might be the ability to predict the opponents moves, and yet another
the neccessary aptitude with hands/arms to block it.

You consider the skill to only have the "good form" as part of it, and the
Attributes Intelligence and Quickness covering the other aspects. If this
were the case, then Intelligence and Quickness would play a very major role
in the unarmed combat, and we'd probably have a stat+skill system in place
in SR. We do not have such a system; the skill itself encompasses all
aspects of making a successful attack, not just the pure knowledge of moves.

> Going by what's NOT in the book is definitely a judgement call and one
> you've made your way. I prefer to stay away from that because players can
> get nasty-munchy tendencies from sush an example.

Just like players can get nasty-munchy tendencies from taking what the book
says literally perhaps? But I do not feel it is going by what is not in the
book. There are knowledge skills in the book, and they "...provide the
character with the theorectical basis of actions related to the field of
study and the basis for new designs in an area." While active skills
"...apply toward achieving a specific, short-term result such as hitting a
target with a weapon, performing a difficult maneuver in a vehicle, climbing
a wall, casting a spell, and so forth. These skills also involve some form
of active, physical activity." Active skills are different from skills such
as knowledge skills, which provide information, in that they are concerned
with the actual doing of a task.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Melee and Unarmed combat, and Speed
Date:	Sat, 13 May 1995 19:18:05 +0200

Message no. 7 > It's a judgement call, for sure. But you need to consider things when making
> it. I do not think that all skills represent _only_ pure knowledge, else
> there would not be a class of skills called "knowledge skills", and another
> classes of skills called "active skills".

Ofcourse, and besides thats why we have consentrations and specialisations.
If someone insists in separating knowledge from comtetense he can always
split the skill into two parts - theoretical, practical.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?

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