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Message no. 1
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:54:58 -0400
OK, we already know the happy-happy-joy-joy of dual cyberspurs, but
can a Physical Adept with Killing Hands do the same? For example, a
Physical Adept with Killing Hands: M strikes his opponent with a
two-handed strike. May he apply increased damage because he's using
two hands?

-----
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Class of '99:

Do...not...gun down your high school. If I could offer you
only one tip for the future, not gunning down your high
school would be...it. The long-term benefits of not gunning
down your high school have been proved by scientists,
whereas the rest of my advice has no basis and is no
reliable than my own meandering experience. I will
dispense this advice now...

Angelkiller 404

http://www.mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://www.gibbed.com/parasiteve/

ICQ: 2157053
Message no. 2
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:47:27 -0500
:OK, we already know the happy-happy-joy-joy of dual cyberspurs, but
:can a Physical Adept with Killing Hands do the same? For example, a
:Physical Adept with Killing Hands: M strikes his opponent with a
:two-handed strike. May he apply increased damage because he's using
:two hands?
:


The rule states "Characters using two cyberimplant melee weapons 1/2
their strength attribute, rounded down, to the power of their attack." This
is not one of the clearer rules in SR3. Can you use a set of handrazors and
a set of spurs, adding 1/2 str to the power of either? That gets nasty with
handblades.
However, Since you can't use killing hands with cyberimplant melee
weapons, the answer to your question is clearly no. If you think that's
unfair, be glad that Bonelacing doesn't count either, since bone lacing
uses unarmed combat, not cyberimplant weapon combat. If it REALLY bothers
you, let the adept buy killing hands twice if he really needs the power
boost.

Mongoose
Message no. 3
From: Kelson Kelson@****.net
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:31:18 -0500
> From: Angelkiller 404 <angelkiller404@**********.com>
> Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 10:54 PM

> OK, we already know the happy-happy-joy-joy of dual cyberspurs, but
> can a Physical Adept with Killing Hands do the same? For example, a
> Physical Adept with Killing Hands: M strikes his opponent with a
> two-handed strike. May he apply increased damage because he's using
> two hands?

IMO, no. This is because you are assumed to be using both of your hands in
melee combat already. I haven't seen any mention of Killing Hands being
able to be used on both hands at once (perhaps the damage code assumes that
both hands are used - it doesn't really say).

Justin
Message no. 4
From: Jordan findlerman@*****.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
[Ker-Snip]
> IMO, no. This is because you are assumed to be
> using both of your hands in
> melee combat already. I haven't seen any mention of
> Killing Hands being
> able to be used on both hands at once (perhaps the
> damage code assumes that
> both hands are used - it doesn't really say).
>
> Justin


Ahhh....have you had any real life combat experience?
Yes, you end up using both hands, but not *often* in
the same strike. Two-fisted punches and two-handed
knife-hands are powerful, but rarely used as they are
hard to get both strikes to hit their target.
Sometimes, in hollywood combat, you see these things,
especially with Jean Claude Van Damme's movies (God, I
hate those). But, in real combat, it is normally use
the closest hand (which varies throughout the combat),
and then, maybe the other, as a followup strike. I
have, in sparring matches, used a two-handed strike
maybe 10-30 times...ever. 1/2 of those times it was
for show.

My interpretation of Killing hands is that it is a
power that the adept has...like a knowledge of how to
hit, and make it hurt more by focusing the mana in
him. This, to me, does not have a 'handedness' or is
restricted to one hand, any more than the adept places
on it by favoring one hand, and so hitting more with
it. I do not allow for increased damage for using two
hands, becuase, goddamn, that adept already had a 6
strength, plus adept attribute boosts, and his killing
hands is at serious. His unarmed is above 6 points.
Why the hell does he need it? If you want a
game-system related answer: OK, Adept powers come
from the adept using mana, right? Not in the way that
mages and shamans can and do, but in a more physical
way. Killing hands uses mana to make strikes more
lethal. For whatever damage the level is at, the
adept uses so much mana when hitting. Unless you buy
the powere twice, there is that same amount of mana
being used to make those punches hurt more. So,
whether you use one hand to channel or focus that
mana, or whether you use two to have each hand deliver
the same amount of power, the amount is the same.
But, like, I believe, Mongoose said, if he buys it
twice...

Just my take on the matter,

--Fin
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Message no. 5
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:49:55 -0700
On Tue, 11 May 1999 08:09:18 Jordan wrote:
>Ahhh....have you had any real life combat experience?
>Yes, you end up using both hands, but not *often* in
>the same strike. Two-fisted punches and two-handed
>knife-hands are powerful, but rarely used as they are
>hard to get both strikes to hit their target.
>Sometimes, in hollywood combat, you see these things,
>especially with Jean Claude Van Damme's movies (God, I
>hate those). But, in real combat, it is normally use
>the closest hand (which varies throughout the combat),
>and then, maybe the other, as a followup strike. I
>have, in sparring matches, used a two-handed strike
>maybe 10-30 times...ever. 1/2 of those times it was
>for show.

I'm not debating that at all. I was just saying that perhaps both hands are already used
with this ability. After all, if you are unable to strike with one of your hands and its
the one with the channeled energy, then you won't get the benefit (if you rule that the
energy is only channeled through one of your hands).

I pretty much assume that the energy is focused at the time the punch is made. Thus, the
hand used is irrelevant. But this is all open to interpretation. I don't think that
there needs to be a way to use the power 2-handed, either.

>--Fin

Justin


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Message no. 6
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:23:51 -0500
My Two pesos :)

Jordan escribió:
>
> [Ker-Snip]
> > IMO, no. This is because you are assumed to be
....
> > both hands are used - it doesn't really say).
> >
> > Justin
>
> Ahhh....have you had any real life combat experience?
> Yes, you end up using both hands, but not *often* in
> the same strike. Two-fisted punches and two-handed
> knife-hands are powerful, but rarely used as they are
> hard to get both strikes to hit their target.

And you have no guard, a very dangerous situation a expert fighter like
a physical adept would avoid. You left a big "open" for a counterstrike.

> Sometimes, in hollywood combat, you see these things,
....
> maybe 10-30 times...ever. 1/2 of those times it was
> for show.

You can also see in movies two feet kick.

> My interpretation of Killing hands is that it is a
....
> But, like, I believe, Mongoose said, if he buys it
> twice...

Im agree, is not how many hands you use in the punch, is about the mana
(KI?) that the physical adept use in his punches. Correct me if im wrong
but kicks could be stronger that fits and in game terms with Killing
hand is the same, no matter if you conect with a feet or with a hand (or
head, home rule :-) )

Ahuizotl
Message no. 7
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:34:36 -0400 (EDT)
Jordan <findlerman@*****.com> writes:
> [Ker-Snip]
> > IMO, no. This is because you are assumed to be
> > using both of your hands in
> > melee combat already. I haven't seen any mention of
> > Killing Hands being
> > able to be used on both hands at once (perhaps the
> > damage code assumes that
> > both hands are used - it doesn't really say).
> >
> > Justin
>
>
> Ahhh....have you had any real life combat experience?
> Yes, you end up using both hands, but not *often* in
> the same strike.
[big snip on basic fighting]

Sure, but the original argument was to give 2xKilling hands
the same rules as 2xcyberimplants. Is cyberimplant weapon fighting
really all that different than unarmed combat? I don't see it that
way, so if cyberimplant weaponry is going to give me 1.5xDamage, then
Killing Hands might be able to as well.
On top of this, don't forget that SR melee isn't an "I swing,
you swing" sort of affair. One melee attack could be a rapid sequence
of moves, which could be enhanced depending on how you visualize
Killing Hands.

> and then, maybe the other, as a followup strike. I
> have, in sparring matches, used a two-handed strike
> maybe 10-30 times...ever.

I've done it about 10-30 myself. However, that's specifically
because I'm sparring, not fighting. All you need to do is score a
point in sparring, and the sparring stops, people reset position, and
we begin again. You don't need to worry about a counterstrike if
you're sure you get first blow, even if the counterstrike is about to
land, and no matter how weak it is (as long as it looks clean and has
a little power). In a real fight, I'd never even try it. For
starters, everything below the belt becomes a "legal" striking
location.

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:56:50 -0700
>You can also see in movies two feet kick.

We do them in Hapkido all the time. ;-)

Shadowrun Martial Arts is tricky. Making decent rules that reflect reality
is difficult.

Double attacks are but one example why. For example, double roundhouse
first kicks with one leg and then the other. Depending upon how you execute
the kick, the second leg is the power leg while the first is the opener
(but you can also feint with a front roundhouse to double). The main idea
is to make the kicks impossible to block (although you should be able to
kick through anyone's block) but second, the footwork allows for a quick
advancing attack so that backing up doesn't work. Also, the arc of the two
roundhouses makes it difficult to angle away from, and the feint-double
roundhouse sets them up for your finishing attack, spin hook or back kick.
The whole sequence can be completed in under two seconds.

Double side kick, on the other hand, is not more difficult to block, but
is, rather, more powerful. It isn't so much that the extra foot adds
anything, as lifting both fit from the ground requires more follow through
and spring.

Then there is double upper strike which is a simultaneous high attack block
and high attack to your opponent. It gathers power from the waist and
directs it upwards.

I'm not going to let Physads buy Killing Hands twice, but I will also
disallow the two cyberspurs rule, which I find to be not quite on the mark.
A two weapon style (e.g. Arnis or Escrima) uses the simultaneous blocks and
strikes. Two nunchaku are mostly attack (it's difficult to block with
them), as are two knives. It depends on the style.

A real knife is quite a dangerous weapon by itself. A real knife fighter
will attempt to stick the blade in you as many times as possible, as
rapidly as possible, and he won't leave the knife hanging out there waiting
to be disarmed. Thus, I find most "knife defenses" to be unrealistic.

P.S. The martial arts fight scenes in the Matrix could have been so much
cooler with real martial artists. A 720 jump spin kick (inner twisting
kick, spin roundhouse, spin hook all in the air) is much more visually
pleasing than 3 lame front kicks. A mariposa (butterfly twist) has to be
seen to be believed.

>Ahuizotl

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:34:47 -0500
:Ahhh....have you had any real life combat experience?
:Yes, you end up using both hands, but not *often* in
:the same strike. Two-fisted punches and two-handed
:knife-hands are powerful, but rarely used as they are
:hard to get both strikes to hit their target.

I think this is the intention behind the increase in power when using
two cyberimplant wepons. You get in more hits more easily- although that
should not help against things like "hardened armor". Personally, I'd
preffer some special skill related to two wepon combat (not the one in FoF,
though). I think the "1/2 strength" rule is a bit much, and the Cannon
Companion should offer something more balanced.
In sr3, having lots of attack dice can increases attack power, if
you stage damage past deadly.


:So,
:whether you use one hand to channel or focus that
:mana, or whether you use two to have each hand deliver
:the same amount of power, the amount is the same.
:But, like, I believe, Mongoose said, if he buys it
:twice...

That was a "well, if you GOTTA" kind of suggestion- theres a reason the
rules don't allow it. Each fist NORMALLY does str M stun- are you going to
allow two fist stun attacks, with no purchase of cyber or killing hands?
The canon route would be to take killing hads at "D"- then your extra
unarmed succeses would all go towards increasing attack power!

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: Nexx Many-Scars nexx@********.net
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:18:20 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.com>
>
> I think this is the intention behind the increase in power when using
> two cyberimplant wepons. You get in more hits more easily- although
that
> should not help against things like "hardened armor". Personally, I'd
> preffer some special skill related to two wepon combat (not the one in
FoF,
> though). I think the "1/2 strength" rule is a bit much, and the Cannon
> Companion should offer something more balanced.

Why not have Two-Weapon fighting be a complimentary skill to your normal
skill, with a maximum rating equal to that skill.

For example, Nexx is fighting Dagger and Rapier. He has a Edged Weapons of
3, and two-weapon fighting of 6 (complimenting his Blunt Objects of 6,
natch). He rolls 3 Dice for Edged, scoring 2 successes, and 3 dice for Two
Weapon (his score in Edged weapons), getting two successes. His attack
thus has 3 successes (2 from Edged, 1 for getting 2 on his complimentary
skill)
Message no. 11
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:44:24 -0400
>
> [Ker-Snip]
> > IMO, no. This is because you are assumed to be
....
> > both hands are used - it doesn't really say).
> >
> > Justin
>
> Ahhh....have you had any real life combat experience?
> Yes, you end up using both hands, but not *often* in
> the same strike. Two-fisted punches and two-handed
> knife-hands are powerful, but rarely used as they are
> hard to get both strikes to hit their target.

And you have no guard, a very dangerous situation a expert fighter
like
a physical adept would avoid. You left a big "open" for a
counterstrike.

Perhaps. In the game, the physad used a double palm strike (sorta
like Heihachi's ungodly Demon's Strike from T3) into some unfortunate
corp guard's chest using Killing Hands and with a Strength of 8 and
Unarmed Combat: 10, he effectively slammed that poor schlep ten feet
(he would've gone further if it wasn't for the wall, into which he
made a nice-sized dent). At the time, there was no question. Normal
damage, plus a buttload of successes. But just in case, the player
ever tried that again, I just had to make sure.

Also, a style-point question: If a VERY fast physad has katana at,
say 14, and a Force:5 weapon foci, would it be feasible to say that an
ungodly successful strike (say...22 successes?) would mean a lot of
hits (moving so fast that the unfortunate target couldn't possibly see
all 20 hits...for example, anybody remember Ukyo's multi-hit move from
SamSho3, you know, the one where he runs around an opponent, hitting
him ten-eleven times before he explodes? God, I love that game...) or
just one big hit?

-----

Angelkiller 404, who plays fighting games WAY too much

http://www.mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://www.gibbed.com/parasiteve/

ICQ: 2157053
Message no. 12
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:19:47 -0500
"Nexx Many-Scars" <nexx@********.net>
05/11/99 01:18 PM


Please respond to shadowrn@*********.org



To: shadowrn@*********.org
cc: (bcc: Chris M. Petro/Household International)
Subject: Re: Melee combat question.

I think these are 2 really good ideas.




Nexx writes:

>>Why not have Two-Weapon fighting be a complimentary skill to your normal
>>skill, with a maximum rating equal to that skill.

>>For example, Nexx is fighting Dagger and Rapier. He has a Edged Weapons
of
>>3, and two-weapon fighting of 6 (complimenting his Blunt Objects of 6,
>>natch). He rolls 3 Dice for Edged, scoring 2 successes, and 3 dice for
Two
>>Weapon (his score in Edged weapons), getting two successes. His attack
>>thus has 3 successes (2 from Edged, 1 for getting 2 on his complimentary
>>skill)

Mongoose writes

>>The canon route would be to take killing hads at "D"- then your extra
>>unarmed succeses would all go towards increasing attack power!
Message no. 13
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:33:53 -0500
On Tue, 11 May 1999 13:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Sure, but the original argument was to give 2xKilling hands
>the same rules as 2xcyberimplants. Is cyberimplant weapon fighting
>really all that different than unarmed combat? I don't see it that
>way, so if cyberimplant weaponry is going to give me 1.5xDamage, then
>Killing Hands might be able to as well.
<SNIP>

Okay ... The base damage for a cyberimplant weapon is listed and assumes
one implant in one limb, regardless if you wield it with one limb or more
(and you *should* "wield" weapon/fist/foot with your whole body [in a
controlled manner]. :). Okay, now install a second implant and wield it
in combat ... it's not a matter of using two hands, it's a matter of
using two implants. If you want x1.5 power with Killing Hands, buy it
twice.

Hmmm ... here's an idea (inspired by a post by Mongoose): Why not have
an attacker choose whether a success goes towards increased power or
increased damage level then get rid of x1.5 power for double cyber
weapons?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 14
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Melee combat question.
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:25:38 -0500
:Also, a style-point question: If a VERY fast physad has katana at,
:say 14, and a Force:5 weapon foci, would it be feasible to say that an
:ungodly successful strike (say...22 successes?) would mean a lot of
:hits <snip>or
:just one big hit?

Given that ALL SR melee is assumed to be a rapid exchange of multiple
blows, that case could easily be multiple hits. In fact, even the base
damage (with no staging) could ocassionally reflect one good hit, and other
times multiple lesser blows.

Gee, how's that for a really detailed "maybe"?

Mongoose

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