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Message no. 1
From: K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:42:45 -0500
At 08:38 PM 3/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >>>"But I think the comparison we want (if I'm correct about the
question)
> >is a fast, skilled fighter v. a slow, skilled fighter. In game terms, we
> >could pit an adept with skill 6, init 6+1D6 against a sam with skill 6,
> >init 14+3D6 (all else equal).

>This is really hard to make an "all things being equal" kind of
>situation...

Here's the beauty of gaming: I really *can* make two guys who are equal in
all things except their initiative- identical in every way except that one
has Initiative 6+1D6 and one has Initiative 14+3D6. I don't even have to
justify it with cyber, magic, etc. because I'm the GM. [Forgive me if I'm
a little awestruck at the possibilities- I spend every day trying to
analyze data with confounding variables... :) ]
And let's drop the bit about one being a sam and one an adept-
that was a mistake on my part. sorry...
So now we've just got two guys, named Fast Guy and Slow Guy (the
Guy brothers). They fight. 1000 times (for statistical rigor). Who wins?
SR3 vanilla: 50/50- because an attack is identical to a
counterattack and all else is equal (I mean it!), they tie.
My own house rule (counterattacks do no damage, N.B. I am going to
change this rule, that's why I'm interested): Fast Guy mops the floor with
Slow Guy.
Extra melee die per Init die: Ditto, poor Slow Guy gets pounded,
though not nearly as badly as with my house rule.

So, are the brothers evenly matched? or is Fast Guy the baddest thing on
two legs?

Keith


Keith Suderman
Florida State University
Department of Oceanography
850-980-3218
Message no. 2
From: Lee Decker deckerl@******.com
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:38:54 -0500
<SNIP Keith's insights>
I always wondered how much of the list you caught, guess work is slow today.
:)
The problem is you have way too much insight into the stats of games, but I
agree with you.
Personally I'm very curious what Cannon Companion will bring to this
discussion.
I've been block deleting alot of stuff lately, I may have to start reading
again.
Message no. 3
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:03:58 +0200
K. Suderman wrote:
>
> So, are the brothers evenly matched? or is Fast Guy the baddest thing on
> two legs?
>
Even if you take out the tactical cosiderations (the guy who gets to
act first can go next to a buddy and get extra friend in melee, climb to
higher ground, get a running start if he wants to evade, engage the
weaker opponent first from an angle that does not include other opponent
s in melee and generally picking ''your'' battlefield instead of it
being picked for you) I would still have to say that playing first is a
relative advantage since you get to attack first and since statistics
indicates a draw, ties go to the attacker. That should result to a small
wound at least, or statistically the first person to get wounded would
be the orifinal defender of the first combat phase. Therefore that wound
modifier would respectively make or break the next melee round after the
wound is received. Small advantages make the whole when many dice are
rolled (as is the case with combat oriented characters) and statistics
get to reaffirm themselves.

I should say that it was a very astute observation from you about the
tendency of melee combats to get bogged down in SR3 (SR2 also for that
matter). It tends to be long drawn (since the initial combat monsters
all roll 12 dice(melee skill6 + combat pool 6) but I think it adds to
suspense this way.

As for your reconsidering your house rule, I think it would be very
helpful if you watched some action films in slow motion. Most martial
arts practice riposte hit after most block and parry maneuvers (some of
them even include the counter strike in the same move of the parrying).

By the way, I apprecite what you are or will be doing with the oceans.
Good luck with the ''Gunderson Corporations'' of today!

The Wiz
Message no. 4
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:18:32 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 15-Mar-100 Re: Melee Combat Speed Ques.. by "K.
Suderman"@*****.ocea
> At 08:38 PM 3/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
> > >>>"But I think the comparison we want (if I'm correct about the
question)
> > >is a fast, skilled fighter v. a slow, skilled fighter. In game terms, we
> > >could pit an adept with skill 6, init 6+1D6 against a sam with skill 6,
> > >init 14+3D6 (all else equal).
>
> >This is really hard to make an "all things being equal" kind of
> >situation...
>
> So now we've just got two guys, named Fast Guy and Slow Guy (the
> Guy brothers). They fight. 1000 times (for statistical rigor). Who wins?
> SR3 vanilla: 50/50- because an attack is identical to a
> counterattack and all else is equal (I mean it!), they tie.

Actually, it occurred to me that an attacker has a minor advantage
over the defender in vanilla SR3, since he wins ties. However, the
defender can usually suck up the damage dealt be an attack with no net
successes behind it. If fast guy and slow guy are able to inflict
damage on a tied attack, then fast guy will win more of the time.

Mark
Message no. 5
From: K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:14:16 -0500
> > So, are the brothers evenly matched? or is Fast Guy the baddest thing on
> > two legs?
>
> ..., ties go to the attacker. ...statistically the first person to get
> wounded would
>be the original defender of the first combat phase.

Doh. I can't believe I missed that. Attacks and counterattacks are *not*
equal. Thanks.

My house rule was a (knee-jerk) response to a troll brawler. We just
couldn't believe how lethal he was. In retrospect, a bad rule, but useful
(at the time) for game balance. [Since then, I've rethought my take on
game balance. If the goal of the game is entertainment, the most
entertaining characters are superior, not necessarily the most dangerous
ones. Anyway...]

>By the way, I appreciate what you are or will be doing with the oceans.
>Good luck with the ''Gunderson Corporations'' of today!
>
>The Wiz

I'm comparing the effects of two hydrocarbons on benthic crustaceans-
hopefully I'm helping clarify issues in pollution. Regardless, I'm getting
my degree. :) Unfortunately, I missed the reference- 'Gunderson Corps'?

Keith



Keith Suderman
Florida State University
Department of Oceanography
850-980-3218
Message no. 6
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:35:49 -0500
>>>Here's the beauty of gaming: I really *can* make two guys who are
equal in
>all things except their initiative- identical in every way except
that one
>has Initiative 6+1D6 and one has Initiative 14+3D6. I don't even
have to
>justify it with cyber, magic, etc. because I'm the GM.

I suppose you could... However, arguing a point that is technically
impossible according to the rules of the game seems a little
counter-productive.

The fact is you CAN'T have two COMPLETELY equal opponents barring
speed. It simply ain't possible, gosh darn it!!! (sorry) There has
to be a reason a character's reaction is higher than his/her racial
maximum. It HAS to be because of magic or cyber or "other" factors
that will affect things like combat pool, initiative dice, and such.
If, for argument's sake, that you have a natural 14 reaction... I
don't want to think about how high your combat pool is, or about what
kind of attributes you have, or even what kind of GM would allow such
a character in his/her campaign... Seems silly.

Anyway, with this in mind, I think we can move on. Being a GM since
this game was published, I know as well as most that if one person's
reaction is 8 points higher than someone else's, he's going to have a
distinct advantage in any combat situation. I think we can all agree
on that. However that isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not
that character should be given even MORE of an advantage simply
because he is fast. This is something I am having a hard time
understanding.

Please, if someone could explain this to me... I would be most
appreciative.

Wasntka (Wolf)
Message no. 7
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:36:09 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 15-Mar-100 Melee Combat Speed Question by "Glenn
Sprott"@*********
> The fact is you CAN'T have two COMPLETELY equal opponents barring
> speed. It simply ain't possible, gosh darn it!!! (sorry) There has
> to be a reason a character's reaction is higher than his/her racial
> maximum. It HAS to be because of magic or cyber or "other" factors
> that will affect things like combat pool, initiative dice, and such.

The reason this comes up a lot is that it's easy to compare someone
before and after installing, say, Wired Reflexes 3 and a Reaction
Enhancer 6. He now has 12 more points of reaction and 3 more initiative
dice, but the only benefit of this speed increase in a melee is that
he's going to be the attacker more often than the defender.

> Anyway, with this in mind, I think we can move on. Being a GM since
> this game was published, I know as well as most that if one person's
> reaction is 8 points higher than someone else's, he's going to have a
> distinct advantage in any combat situation. I think we can all agree
> on that.

Actually, I think this is the main point of disagreement. 8 points
of reaction gives you advantages, in places like the surprise test, or
in a case where reaching a position first might give you a tactical
advantage, but when it comes down to an actual Unarmed Combat test, the
best it can do is make you win ties. IMHO, it isn't giving you much
advantage in a melee combat situation. If you were to change this into
a firefight, then the advantages would be very obvious. The person with
Wired 3 is almost always going to be shooting first and more often,
which means a lot more in a firefight than in a melee.

I hope this clears things up, such as why I might feel more
advantages for the quick might feel appropriate.

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:54:46 -0500
>>>Actually, I think this is the main point of >disagreement. 8
points of reaction gives you >advantages, in places like the surprise
test, or
>in a case where reaching a position first might >give you a tactical
advantage, but when it comes >down to an actual Unarmed Combat test,
the
>best it can do is make you win ties. IMHO, it isn't >giving you much
advantage in a melee combat >situation. If you were to change this
into
>a firefight, then the advantages would be very >obvious. The person
with Wired 3 is almost >always going to be shooting first and more
often,
>which means a lot more in a firefight than in a >melee.<<<

I couldn't agree with you more. Except that I thought we established
that you wouldn't necessarily win ties... If you attack first, but
lose the melee combat test, you are now the defender and not the
attacker. Am I right about this or did I misread it?

However, I think what you said is the heart of the matter. The
advantages given to you by the fact that you are fast (such as
positioning, or surprise, or the ability to break off and such) is the
only real advantages that you will need. I say this not out of
realism or personal experience (I think I'm going to stay away from
that angle from now on...), but rather out the mere sake of game
balance.

I feel that once it is determined that through speed comes advantage
in melee combat, the entire population of players and GM's alike are
going to become number crunchers again. I mean, it's bad enough
watching my potential samuri sitting down with a calculator, a wad of
cash, and a beta clinic wish list, and witnessing the creation of
steel and flesh that has no rival in any combat situation outside of
magic. Now, if speed equals extra dice, everything that made the
physadept so appealing will be slightly diminished as the samuri and
anyone else who can afford wired reflexes or synaptic accelorators, or
(god forbid) move-by-wire will suddenly become on par with the
physadept simply because they had extra money and essence. This may
be an exageration, but I have seen players turn down everything
magical because they "aren't fast enough" except for the physical
adept.

Phys Adept: "I have heightened senses."
Samuri: "So do I. Cyber-eyes and ears."
PA: "I have killing hands."
S: "Me too, kinda... Bone lacing and Muscle aug."
PA: "I can see astral..."
S: "So can the mage. Big deal. What else?"
PA: "Pain resistance?"
S: "Trauma Damper or the mage can cast resist serious."
PA: "Increased Reflexes."
S: "Now we're talkin'! What level?"
PA: "Level one... that's all I had left after the killing
hands..."
S: "That's it? Tell you what... you come back after you have had
some reflex enhancement implanted, and we'll just pray
that you don't lose your killing hands because that's all you're
good for right now. You sure you got nothing else?"
PA: "I can fight real good!"
S: "Big deal! We can all fight good. We weren't so stupid as to not
purchase some kind of reflex enhancement. I mean, who wouldn't? You
get free dice for melee combat. With only a 4 in unarmed combat and
level 2 wired reflexes, I can roll 10 dice if I use all of my combat
pool. You put that on top of the fact that I will go around 30 or 40
and you will be going around10 or 15... "
PA: "Well, I..."
S: "Yes?"
PA: "... I have empathic sense!"
S: "Have a nice day."
PA: "Wait! I can get distance strike!"
S: "Me too... It's called a gun. Bubye."
PA: "Uh... I can get nerve strike!"
S: "Too bad your too slow to use it. We'll call you."
PA: "WAIT!!"
S: [slams door]

Wasntka (Wolf)
Message no. 9
From: K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:30:35 -0500
>The fact is you CAN'T have two COMPLETELY equal opponents barring
>speed. It simply ain't possible, gosh darn it!!! (sorry)

Okay, two new guys. NPCs. For clarity, named Al and Bob. Identical
twins. Both have blonde hair, green eyes (my players' characters all seem
to have green eyes). All stats equal 3. Unarmed skill 3. Al has Boosted
1. Completely equal save initiative (okay, Al has lower Essence, but that
shouldn't affect melee). QED.
But I do see your point- outside of this test case, there will
never be two perfectly matched opponents. The question I'm asking is
extremely limited in scope and will never be applied directly. [I do basic
research, such is my life... :( ]
I'm trying to pare down a problem that I haven't seen addressed on
this list: Is speed (just speed) an advantage in a fight? [I don't have
the real-life experience to answer this question well.]
The answers (that haven't strayed to the sam v. adept topic) seem
to say that speed is an advantage, but not an overwhelming one.
The plain-vanilla rules give a slight edge to the faster fighter
because he is the attacker more frequently and the attacker wins ties. My
favorite house rule (Graht's) gives a greater edge in the form of
additional dice for high speed.

>Anyway, with this in mind, I think we can move on.

I think we are asking different questions. Mine remains valid, if esoteric
(and uninteresting?).

You are looking at synthesis: How do the various rules affect game
balance? (And several other questions- I don't mean to
oversimplify.) Your questions are important- perhaps more important than
mine- but I think I should understand what I'm modeling before I start
trying to change the model.

Sorry for being pedantic,

Keith



Keith Suderman
Florida State University
Department of Oceanography
850-980-3218
Message no. 10
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:39:00 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Mark A Shieh wrote:

> The reason this comes up a lot is that it's easy to compare someone
> before and after installing, say, Wired Reflexes 3 and a Reaction
> Enhancer 6. He now has 12 more points of reaction and 3 more initiative
> dice, but the only benefit of this speed increase in a melee is that
> he's going to be the attacker more often than the defender.

In SR2 this was a no-brainer: the guy with wired reflexes would go
several times before his opponent, and each time he went, his combat pool
would be refreshed. His slow opponent was not so lucky. In this way, a
relatively-unskilled-but-fast combatant got a little boost from this, so
long as he didn't get wasted on the first counterattack. Statistically
speaking, it didn't change too much unless the combatants were of roughly
equivalent (one or two skill points) anyway, and both very skilled (where
they could conceivably blow their entire pool in one or two
counterattacks). Even then, you needed to be able to act like three times
before your opponent to guarantee that he'd be out of pool entirely.
In other words, under SR2 initiative and pool rules, a heavily
wired opponent got a small advantage in melee combat...

<editorial rant>
...which is is yet *another* reason the SR3 initiative rules blow
fermented chunks.
</editorial rant>

Marc
Message no. 11
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:42:18 +0200
K. Suderman wrote:
> Unfortunately, I missed the reference- 'Gunderson Corps'?

At ''Cyberpirates'' the infamous Gunderson Corporation is the local
''Aztecnology'' for Miami. If you are nt using the ''Cyberpirates''
supplement I highly recommend it. In fact I am running a Carribean
League campaign out of north Haiti.(I also have a rasta troll
joint smoking merc who also keeps basshing random things including
Gunderson attack copters). Living in Greece really helps us get
into the feeling of the campaign. You are too close to the sea to miss
the fun of such a campaign.

Since you 're into pollution control and environment protection in
general why don't you try running an ecoterrorist campaign? You can be
the good guys who ask politely at first and keep the bodycount to
a minimum, or join with the toxics out of the Glades.
That kind of campaign can really put one's ethics to a test.

Rock on, our oceans need people like you, what ever job you end up
doing!

The Wiz.
Message no. 12
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:15:14 +0000
In article <001601bf8f1c$e7eeb3e0$e06e1f26@*********>, Glenn Sprott
<wasntka44@*********.net> writes
>S: "Big deal! We can all fight good. We weren't so stupid as to not
>purchase some kind of reflex enhancement. I mean, who wouldn't? You
>get free dice for melee combat. With only a 4 in unarmed combat and
>level 2 wired reflexes, I can roll 10 dice if I use all of my combat
>pool. You put that on top of the fact that I will go around 30 or 40
>and you will be going around10 or 15... "
>PA: "Well, I..."
>S: "Yes?"
>PA: "... I have empathic sense!"
>S: "Have a nice day."
>PA: "Wait! I can get distance strike!"
>S: "Me too... It's called a gun. Bubye."
>PA: "Uh... I can get nerve strike!"
>S: "Too bad your too slow to use it. We'll call you."

PA: "I tapdance through airport security."
S: <pause> "Airport security?"
PA: "Well, most any sort of security. I don't set off chemsniffers, metal
detectors or Detect Guns spells. You _have_ heard of security?"
S: "Uh. Yes. I've heard of it. We... might have an opening for you."

Physical adepts have some advantages of subtlety. In some games that
doesn't matter a damn. In others, it's a lifesaver.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 13
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:10:49 +0000
In article <4.3.0.20000316083732.00a8bc50@******.acns.fsu.edu>, K.
Suderman <suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu> writes
> I'm trying to pare down a problem that I haven't seen addressed on
>this list: Is speed (just speed) an advantage in a fight? [I don't have
>the real-life experience to answer this question well.]

When I was fencing, I'd have to say "not really". Control and skill mattered
much more: "speed" just meant you got to lunge, be parried, and then
yelp as your opponent planted a riposte in your chest.

'Course, I never fought anyone with wires... but they're wired _reflexes_,
and skill doesn't get involved much. A skilled opponent might be able to
take advantage of that.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 14
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:07:23 +0000
In article <Iso6Gta00UwE1PR2I0@******.cmu.edu>, Mark A Shieh
<SHODAN+@***.EDU> writes
>Excerpts from ShadowRN: 15-Mar-100 Melee Combat Speed Question by "Glenn
>Sprott"@*********
>> The fact is you CAN'T have two COMPLETELY equal opponents barring
>> speed. It simply ain't possible, gosh darn it!!! (sorry) There has
>> to be a reason a character's reaction is higher than his/her racial
>> maximum. It HAS to be because of magic or cyber or "other" factors
>> that will affect things like combat pool, initiative dice, and such.
>
> The reason this comes up a lot is that it's easy to compare someone
>before and after installing, say, Wired Reflexes 3 and a Reaction
>Enhancer 6. He now has 12 more points of reaction and 3 more initiative
>dice, but the only benefit of this speed increase in a melee is that
>he's going to be the attacker more often than the defender.

The advantage there is, if the fight goes against Mr Speedy, or if hostile
reinforcements arrive, he can choose to get out of Dodge. If Mr Slow
starts to lose, his options are distinctly limited.

>> Anyway, with this in mind, I think we can move on. Being a GM since
>> this game was published, I know as well as most that if one person's
>> reaction is 8 points higher than someone else's, he's going to have a
>> distinct advantage in any combat situation. I think we can all agree
>> on that.
>
> Actually, I think this is the main point of disagreement. 8 points
>of reaction gives you advantages, in places like the surprise test, or
>in a case where reaching a position first might give you a tactical
>advantage, but when it comes down to an actual Unarmed Combat test, the
>best it can do is make you win ties. IMHO, it isn't giving you much
>advantage in a melee combat situation.

Whereas I don't like to see wired reflexes or other speed boosts provide
too much invincibility. Again, the reaction increases mean you can
disengage, or manoeuvre for position, or bring friends into / enemies out
of the fight...

>If you were to change this into
>a firefight, then the advantages would be very obvious. The person with
>Wired 3 is almost always going to be shooting first and more often,
>which means a lot more in a firefight than in a melee.

Melees remind me of dogfights. "More than half the pilots who go into a
scissors die there."

While you're trading blows with your chosen Bad Guy, Bad Guy #2 is lining
up a shot at you, because you've got zero situational awareness (if you're
watching your back, you're not watching the person in front of you who's
trying to shove a kitchen knife up your nose)

Firefights give you a little more distance.


> I hope this clears things up, such as why I might feel more
>advantages for the quick might feel appropriate.

It does. I don't agree, but I understand your reasoning better. As usual, it's
a difference in emphasis: I _like_ it when a trained, if unwired, mundane
is able to give an overconfident wireboy a painful surprise. Others differ.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 15
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Melee Combat Speed Question
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:11:24 -0500
>>S: "Have a nice day."
>>PA: "Wait! I can get distance strike!"
>>S: "Me too... It's called a gun. Bubye."
>>PA: "Uh... I can get nerve strike!"
>>S: "Too bad your too slow to use it. We'll call you."
>
>PA: "I tapdance through airport security."
>S: <pause> "Airport security?"
>PA: "Well, most any sort of security. I don't set off chemsniffers,
metal
>detectors or Detect Guns spells. You _have_ heard of security?"
>S: "Uh. Yes. I've heard of it. We... might have an opening for you."
>
>Physical adepts have some advantages of subtlety. In some games that
>doesn't matter a damn. In others, it's a lifesaver.
>
>--
>Paul J. Adam

You bring up a very good point. However, that leads me to a different
question; what kind of magical security do major international
airports have? I'm sure this has been touched on in one of the many
Shadowrun books, but I don't have access to them at the moment.

Obviously, if security is threatened enough by cyberware and such (the
cyber-cuffs things), why wouldn't they feel threatened by something as
unpredictable as magic? I mean, mage masks exists, but how many mages
are going to truly enjoy their flight if they are singled out, hooded
with a tube down their throat, and thrown on the plane?

Could someone point me to the rules on the this one?


Wasntka (Wolf)
...Never allow your family to get hurt...
...Never allow your friends to stand alone...
...Never betray your loved one...
...Never betray yourself...

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