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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Fri Jan 25 14:45:01 2002
> > >Don't that depend on how the genes behave, which one is the
dominant
> > >one and some other scientific mumbo-jumbo?
> > >
> > >At least in SR the metagenes have a strong part, otherwise we
would
> > >have half breeds, so that should be stated as a fact.
<snip primer on Mendelian genetics and codominance>
Hmm, I was under the impression (from various readings in SR
sourcebooks) that the definition of a "metagene" transcended the
normal definitions of Mendelian genetics and genetic
dominance/penetration. The reason they are called "metagenes" is that
such "traits" cannot be localized to a certain gene on a certain
chromosome (Human Genome Project rearing its ugly head). Specifically,
I seem to recall that the SR scientists have no clue as to the loci of
such metagenes, if they even exist in the first place. It is sort of
like the hairy problem of discovering hair/skin color genes, since
they rely on multiple genes (granted, on the same chromosome). I was
under the impression that something in the chromosomes themselves were
"activated" by the latent mana level, something intrinsic (chromosome
"shape" perhaps) or multifactoral (like certain types of diabetes). Or
perhaps another factor is involved, not unlike mitochondrial DNA, that
is as yet undiscovered (in SR pseudoscience, mind you).

On another note, I thought brown eyes were the dominant gene and blue
eyes recessive (associated, of course, with blonde hair and certain
types of heart disease). It's been a while since my high school
biology class where we discussed this particular type of inheritance,
so I could be mistaken. The "only the dominant gene passes to the
child" theory works game-wise, but it doesn't work as far as normal
Mendelian genetics (as stated above and in the previous primer).
Fundamentally, though, it's whatever works; in SR, kids are only of
the race of one of their parents, for whatever reason. Also, I was
under the impression that two humans can possibly produce any of the
races (due to UGE or goblinization). And let us not forget
environmental factors (extreme cases like the otaku aside).

To make a long story short, no one in SR knows WHY some people are
magically active, some people are elves, some people are trolls, etc.
There is a genetic component, but it is probably not inherited as a
specific Dominant/Co-dominant/Recessive gene (there is too little
variation as such)... possibly multi-factoral or non-chromosomal
inheritance. There are no "known" half-breeds, and certain traits may
stay latent in the genome until the mana level activates them (SURGE
comes to mind, but also the 1st wave of goblinization and teenage
onset goblinization).

Of course, I want to know what happened to all the Tskrang and
Windlings (I believe ED Windlings are SR Pixies, but the Tskrang are
absent AFAIK).

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already
know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be
killed."
-G. K. Chesterton
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Fri Jan 25 15:25:01 2002
<SNIP>
> Of course, I want to know what happened to all the Tskrang and
> Windlings (I believe ED Windlings are SR Pixies, but the Tskrang are
> absent AFAIK).

Let's not forget the Obsidimen ;-) something to stand toe-to-toe to
trolls ... just as strong and tough, less dextrous but more intelligent
...
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Fri Jan 25 15:40:01 2002
From: "Hahns Shin" <Hahns_Shin@*******.com>
> <snip primer on Mendelian genetics and codominance>

Ahh... I was looking for the proper English names for this sort of scientific
mumbo-jumbo :-)

<snip>
> On another note, I thought brown eyes were the dominant gene and blue
> eyes recessive (associated, of course, with blonde hair and certain
> types of heart disease). It's been a while since my high school
> biology class where we discussed this particular type of inheritance,
> so I could be mistaken.

You are right, it's been a long time since my high-school biology aswell (17
years does make you forget the details).

> The "only the dominant gene passes to the
> child" theory works game-wise, but it doesn't work as far as normal
> Mendelian genetics (as stated above and in the previous primer).
> Fundamentally, though, it's whatever works; in SR, kids are only of
> the race of one of their parents, for whatever reason. Also, I was
> under the impression that two humans can possibly produce any of the
> races (due to UGE or goblinization).

Wouldn't that be "could", since it only happened in the early days of the
awakende world. These days (2060+) I don't think many humans produce other
races.

The way I see it, is that if two humans produce another race, then at least one
of the humans are not realy human, but the race of the baby. The human just
hasn't goblinized or just din't turn out a full blown elf/dwarf, possible due to
a local mana-level shortout, or something like that.

> Of course, I want to know what happened to all the Tskrang and
> Windlings (I believe ED Windlings are SR Pixies, but the Tskrang are
> absent AFAIK).

That has been mentioned somewhere. I think it was the former line-developer (Lou
Pro...?) of Earthdawn, that mentioned that in the 2nd world there was 12 races.
8 of these survede the 3rd world's low mana-level and made it to the 4th world
(Human, Elf, Dwarf, Ork, Troll, Windlings, Tskrang and Obsidimen (sp?)). Only 5
of these (initially, Pixies wasn't added until PAoE) survived the 5th world and
made it into the 6th world.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Sat Jan 26 06:30:06 2002
According to Hahns Shin, on Fri, 25 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> On another note, I thought brown eyes were the dominant gene and blue
> eyes recessive

AFAIK, yes.

> Also, I was
> under the impression that two humans can possibly produce any of the
> races

That one fits in with Lars' theory: if you have two Ho humans, they have a
25% chance of having an ork child, and 75% of a human child.

> Of course, I want to know what happened to all the Tskrang and
> Windlings (I believe ED Windlings are SR Pixies

Yes, they are. It's obvious from the picture in PAoE.

> but the Tskrang are absent AFAIK).

According to Mike Mulvihill, they didn't survive the Fifth World, for
whatever reasons -- their hiding places being destroyed by humans who
didn't recognize them, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Sat Jan 26 16:05:01 2002
On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, LeBlanc, Lange wrote:
> <SNIP>
> > Of course, I want to know what happened to all the Tskrang and
> > Windlings (I believe ED Windlings are SR Pixies, but the Tskrang are
> > absent AFAIK).
> Let's not forget the Obsidimen ;-) something to stand toe-to-toe to
> trolls ... just as strong and tough, less dextrous but more intelligent

I just want to know when they are coming back. B-)

(In my current campaign, I have plans to have one very confused obsidiman
wizard running around in the countryside. "Hey, there is a awakened
critted we never saw before. Want that for my collection!" B-)

--
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@***.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: metagenes
Date: Sun Jan 27 00:00:01 2002
>Or you could say that when metagenes from two races mix, they will do
>battle, and one will win out thereby suppressing and converting the
>loser to the winner's type. This would make it so there is no troll
>with a little bit of elf in him, but his elf gene would have become a
>troll gene. This would explain how there is no possibility of 1/2
>anythings. And you can always make up the chances that any races gene
>would win a fight against another. E.g., an elf and troll mate and the
>results are 75% and 25% troll because when the elf gene combats the
>troll gene it wins 75% of the time.

Genes doing battle? no

One changing the other? A possibility, but the mechanics would be... odd.
it is possible though, one gene could change the other by making a copy of
itself, cutting out the opposing variant, and inserting the copy of itself.
It is possible but would be complicated, as far as I know there are no
genes that do this, though there are "genes" that place copies of
themselves at almost random places through a genome (and very useful things
those are).

As far as I know, in SR Humans can have Human Or metahuman babies but the
second is getting rarer as time goes on, while elves only have elf children
but rarely humans, and never another metatype. Also I remember from some
where that if a UGE meta (Elf, Dwarf) breeds with a Goblinized Meta (Ork,
Troll) the result is almost always a Goblinized Meta of the same variety
and rarely a human.
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Sun Jan 27 10:55:01 2002
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
> According to Hahns Shin, on Fri, 25 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...
>
> > Also, I was under the impression that two humans can possibly
> > produce any of the races
>
> That one fits in with Lars' theory: if you have two Ho humans, they have a
> 25% chance of having an ork child, and 75% of a human child.

Nope, a Ho human could only pass off the strong gene, which would be the H gene.
So two Ho humans would both pass off the H gene and make a Hh human baby.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Sun Jan 27 13:05:01 2002
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Lars Wagner Hansen whispered:
<snip>
> Nope, a Ho human could only pass off the strong gene, which would be the H
gene.
> So two Ho humans would both pass off the H gene and make a Hh human baby.
>

So how come can, say, a brown-haired parent and a black haired parent get a
blonde child? (in real life it's possible, if there's someone blonde down
the ancestoral line)
Or are you just referring to that SR-metagenetics theory someone posted in
this thread?
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: metagenes
Date: Sun Jan 27 19:10:01 2002
>> > Also, I was under the impression that two humans can possibly
>> > produce any of the races
>>
>> That one fits in with Lars' theory: if you have two Ho humans, they have a
>> 25% chance of having an ork child, and 75% of a human child.
>
>Nope, a Ho human could only pass off the strong gene, which would be the H
>gene.
>So two Ho humans would both pass off the H gene and make a Hh human baby.

But in SR it is possible, though very unlikely, for humans to produce
metahumans
and why are only the "strong" genes being transmitted? Both alleles,
whether dominant or recessive, are always transmitted with equal frequency
unless the transmission of a "weak" resulted in an unviable embryo. Plus,
why is the H from one of the humans above being turned into an h, it should
be HH.
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 05:25:01 2002
On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 05:59 , Bryan Pow wrote:

>> Or you could say that when metagenes from two races mix, they will do
>> battle, and one will win out thereby suppressing and converting the
>> loser to the winner's type. This would make it so there is no troll
>> with a little bit of elf in him, but his elf gene would have become a
>> troll gene. This would explain how there is no possibility of 1/2
>> anythings. And you can always make up the chances that any races gene
>> would win a fight against another. E.g., an elf and troll mate and the
>> results are 75% and 25% troll because when the elf gene combats the
>> troll gene it wins 75% of the time.
>
> Genes doing battle? no
>
I am not attempting to describe reality, but a simple way to explain the
behavior we see. Remember it is a game where magic exists.

> One changing the other? A possibility, but the mechanics would be...
> odd.
> it is possible though, one gene could change the other by making a copy
> of
> itself, cutting out the opposing variant, and inserting the copy of
> itself.
> It is possible but would be complicated, as far as I know there are no
> genes that do this, though there are "genes" that place copies of
> themselves at almost random places through a genome (and very useful
> things
> those are).
>
> As far as I know, in SR Humans can have Human Or metahuman babies but
> the
> second is getting rarer as time goes on, while elves only have elf
> children
> but rarely humans, and never another metatype. Also I remember from some
> where that if a UGE meta (Elf, Dwarf) breeds with a Goblinized Meta
> (Ork,
> Troll) the result is almost always a Goblinized Meta of the same variety
> and rarely a human.
>
>
>
>
And the gene combat system can explain this. For example, troll genes
battling any other gene result in the troll gene winning. And you can
change the chances of any genes battle resulting in a specific metatype
over time as the magic level in the world changes. If you use gene
combat, you can introduce lots of interesting rules. Two humans can
find their genes combine to produce trolls, elves, or whatever depending
on magic level. So when there is just a small amount of magic more
"illogical" results can appear, but as magic gets stronger the combats
basically fall into a fixed pattern (or not as the case may be :-)).
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 06:50:01 2002
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Sun, 27 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> Nope, a Ho human could only pass off the strong gene, which would be the
> H gene. So two Ho humans would both pass off the H gene and make a Hh
> human baby.

I never paid too much attention to biology (I took a chemical engineering course,
and biology was forced upon us :) but AFAIK the chromosome passed on is basically
determined randomly. There would have to be some strange (for want of a better
word) mechanism at work to only pass the dominant genes on. So that means that if
you have two Ho parents, both could either pass on the H gene (dominant human) or
the o (recessive ork) gene to you. Get both the o's, and you're an ork.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 11:25:01 2002
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Gurth wrote:

> I never paid too much attention to biology (I took a chemical engineering course,
> and biology was forced upon us :) but AFAIK the chromosome passed on is basically
> determined randomly. There would have to be some strange (for want of a better
> word) mechanism at work to only pass the dominant genes on. So that means that if
> you have two Ho parents, both could either pass on the H gene (dominant human) or
> the o (recessive ork) gene to you. Get both the o's, and you're an ork.

Okay, I'm getting into this discussion a little late, but it seems to me
that an explanation involving single genes or gene groupings (ie this Ho,
HH, oo, ... business) is far too simple to be anywhere near the truth.
There must be complex groupings of genes influencing each other in various
ways, some of them switching off others, all resulting in the deceptively
simple effect that races generally breed true, cross-breeds of different
races don't express mixed features, and so on and so forth.

Let's face it, if the genetics of metahumanity were simple or obvious,
then at least some of the corps would be offering gene therapy to change
people into their desired race. Good news for all those elf-posers and
humanis types out there...
--
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change ready.
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 14:35:01 2002
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
> According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Sun, 27 Jan 2002 the word on the street
was...
> > Nope, a Ho human could only pass off the strong gene, which would be the
> > H gene. So two Ho humans would both pass off the H gene and make a Hh
> > human baby.
>
> I never paid too much attention to biology (I took a chemical engineering
course,
> and biology was forced upon us :) but AFAIK the chromosome passed on is
basically
> determined randomly. There would have to be some strange (for want of a better
> word) mechanism at work to only pass the dominant genes on. So that means that
if
> you have two Ho parents, both could either pass on the H gene (dominant human)
or
> the o (recessive ork) gene to you. Get both the o's, and you're an ork.

But Gurth, _you_ quoted my "theory" by saying:

"That one fits in with Lars' theory: if you have two Ho humans, they have a
25% chance of having an ork child, and 75% of a human child."

And I just pointet out that according to my "theory" you could only pass on the
stronger gene. Again according to my "theory" each person would have two
metagenes, and either one of these would be the strong gene, which would
correspond with the persons race, and that you copuld only pass on your strong
gene, and that each of the two strong genes each had a 50% chance of becoming
the babys strong gene.

So a human would always pass one the H gene, and an ork would always pass on the
O gene. The only way you could gete a Ho human, or a Oh ork, would be if a human
and an ork had a baby together. Then they would each pass on the strong genes, a
H from the human and an O from the ork, and the baby would be a HO baby, which
would either turn into a Ho human or a Oh ork.

There isn't much biology in this, is pure theory on my behalf, and it fits with
the way I play SR.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 14:40:01 2002
From: "Gak The Great" <andypfister@***.net>
> Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Lars Wagner Hansen whispered:
> <snip>
> > Nope, a Ho human could only pass off the strong gene, which would be the H
> > gene. So two Ho humans would both pass off the H gene and make a Hh
> > human baby.
> >
>
> So how come can, say, a brown-haired parent and a black haired parent get a
> blonde child? (in real life it's possible, if there's someone blonde down
> the ancestoral line)

Because it's real life, and real biology.

> Or are you just referring to that SR-metagenetics theory someone posted in
> this thread?

That someone is me, and yes I was refering to that theory, since Gurth refered
to my theory. See the answer to Gurths question for a further explanation.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 15:10:01 2002
From: "Bryan Pow" <powbr323@*******.otago.ac.nz>
> >> > Also, I was under the impression that two humans can possibly
> >> > produce any of the races
> >>
> >> That one fits in with Lars' theory: if you have two Ho humans, they have a
> >> 25% chance of having an ork child, and 75% of a human child.
> >
> >Nope, a Ho human could only pass off the strong gene, which would be the H
> >gene. So two Ho humans would both pass off the H gene and make a Hh
> >human baby.
>
> But in SR it is possible, though very unlikely, for humans to produce
> metahumans

When hav you last heard about humans producing metahumans? It rarely happens
these days (2060+ in SR).

My "theory" goes that in order for you to have a metahuman child, you must realy
be a metahuman yourself, you just haven't transformed yet.

Lets pertend that I'm realy an ork, and my wife is an elf (here in 2002), we
won't have ork or elf babies because the mana level is to low. It is possible
that our children will turn into orks in 2021, if they are orks. But what if
they are realy elves? What will their babies be?

If you follow my "theory" my wif and I could only get ork or elf babies, but
they just won't show. Our elf babies will not turn into elves in 2011, because
elves don't goblinize, but they might have elf babies themselves. Although if
they have babies with somebody that are realy an ork, their babies might be
orkl, but that won't show until 2021, if it shows at all. Maybe our straing of
orks needs mor mana to show, and thats why they don't show until the next
generation, although they have been orks genetically all their life.

> and why are only the "strong" genes being transmitted?

Because that's what my "theory" states. I'm not caliming that my theory is the
right one, I was just pointing out how it could work, and since Gurth refered to
my theory, I was just pointing out that according to my theory only the strong
gene could be transmitted.

> Both alleles,
> whether dominant or recessive, are always transmitted with equal frequency
> unless the transmission of a "weak" resulted in an unviable embryo. Plus,
> why is the H from one of the humans above being turned into an h, it should
> be HH.

Again it was because I also stated in my theory that each of the tow genes (the
H and the H in case of two humans), one of them would become the new strong
gene.

You just can't pull out part of a "theory". I all of this in the initial post,
and now you pulle oparts of it out, and try to apply this to real life, and real
biology... what will the next thing be? Trying to explain magic with real
science?

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 15:15:01 2002
From: "Scott Harrison" <scott@**********.com>
> On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 05:59 , Bryan Pow wrote:
>
> > Genes doing battle? no
> >
> I am not attempting to describe reality, but a simple way to explain the
> behavior we see. Remember it is a game where magic exists.

At least you are having the same problems as I have with my theory. People ask
you for a fictional reason, and when you make something up, they immediately
shout: "But according to science..."

I actually like your thery as much as my own. It could be used aswell.

<Snip>
> And the gene combat system can explain this. For example, troll genes
> battling any other gene result in the troll gene winning. And you can
> change the chances of any genes battle resulting in a specific metatype
> over time as the magic level in the world changes. If you use gene
> combat, you can introduce lots of interesting rules. Two humans can
> find their genes combine to produce trolls, elves, or whatever depending
> on magic level. So when there is just a small amount of magic more
> "illogical" results can appear, but as magic gets stronger the combats
> basically fall into a fixed pattern (or not as the case may be :-)).

This could also explain why there sin't an equal amount of humans, elves,
dwarves, orks and trolls around, something my theory can't.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 15:25:01 2002
From: "Keith Duthie" <psycho@*********.co.nz>
> Okay, I'm getting into this discussion a little late, but it seems to me
> that an explanation involving single genes or gene groupings (ie this Ho,
> HH, oo, ... business) is far too simple to be anywhere near the truth.

It's nowhere like the truth, it's a fictional make-up background for something
that are never going to happen.

You can theorize all you like, but you can never prove any of it, as it will
never happen.

> There must be complex groupings of genes influencing each other in various
> ways, some of them switching off others, all resulting in the deceptively
> simple effect that races generally breed true, cross-breeds of different
> races don't express mixed features, and so on and so forth.

You are probely right, just a shame it can never be proven.

I don't need everything in my SR world to be 100% accurate, it's a game for
crying out loud. Use what ever suits your and your playmates.

Although I would like to see your theory, and to see if it can be used to
explain something that I just hasn't thought about.

All you have done so far, is to criticize other theories because they must
obviously be to simple.

> Let's face it, if the genetics of metahumanity were simple or obvious,
> then at least some of the corps would be offering gene therapy to change
> people into their desired race. Good news for all those elf-posers and
> humanis types out there...

And I'm sure they try. They haven't been able to locate the metagene. If they
ever locate it it might be very difficult to change it without destroying it.

"Sure we can cure your Mr. Ork, we just take out this metegene, and replace it
with a Human metagene, once you wake up, you will be 100% human. Oh... did I
forget to tell your that your will also be 100% dead, as the metegene
selfdestroys once we even as much as look at it".

Remember this is a world where magic exists. Maybe even the metagene can cast an
illusion spell on itself, and look exactly like a normal Human metagene, even if
it is an Ork/Troll/Dwarf/Elf metagene?

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 15:30:01 2002
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Lars Wagner Hansen whispered:
<snip>
> You just can't pull out part of a "theory". I all of this in the initial
post,
> and now you pulle oparts of it out, and try to apply this to real life,
and real
> biology... what will the next thing be? Trying to explain magic with real
> science?
>

You shouldn't have said this, you know.. ;)
So, with which physical (maybe nuclear) phenomenon could we describe a
powerball?
Oooo.. I can just see my teachers (or whatever it's called at that level)
stare when I explain my advanced magical physics for my bachelor degree..

-- GAK THE GREAT

"Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden,
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn."
Sauron aus "Herr der Ringe von J.R.R. Tolkien
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 16:35:01 2002
From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
<Snip>
> You just can't pull out part of a "theory". I all of this in the initial
post,
> and now you pulle oparts of it out, and try to apply this to real life, and
real
> biology... what will the next thing be?

Next thing might be that I read through my letters before I hit send, maybe it
will be easier to read and understand what I actually write.

Sorry for all the mistakex :-)

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Mon Jan 28 17:40:01 2002
Hmmm a modifier or repressor function apon genes already present and
functioning in the human genome, probably at as yet unknown binding
sites. hmmmmm interesting, I'll have to think about this further.....

>Okay, I'm getting into this discussion a little late, but it seems to me
>that an explanation involving single genes or gene groupings (ie this Ho,
> HH, oo, ... business) is far too simple to be anywhere near the truth.
> There must be complex groupings of genes influencing each other in various
> ways, some of them switching off others, all resulting in the deceptively
> simple effect that races generally breed true, cross-breeds of different
> races don't express mixed features, and so on and so forth.
>
> Let's face it, if the genetics of metahumanity were simple or obvious,
> then at least some of the corps would be offering gene therapy to change
> people into their desired race. Good news for all those elf-posers and
> humanis types out there...
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Tue Jan 29 06:05:03 2002
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Mon, 28 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> And I just pointet out that according to my "theory" you could only pass
> on the stronger gene.

Yes, and it's a case of me confusing what you said with what I learned in biology
lectures. I thought you had said that the dominant gene determined the race, not
that the dominant gene is always passed on.

Regardless, I think the other person (forgot who it was) who said that this is
much too simple an explanation has it right :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Tue Jan 29 07:50:01 2002
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

> You can theorize all you like, but you can never prove any of it, as it will
> never happen.

Certainly.

> You are probely right, just a shame it can never be proven.

Proof is immaterial. All that's really required is an explanation that
explains all known facts in a rational manner without resorting to
pseudoscience or magic.

> I don't need everything in my SR world to be 100% accurate, it's a game for
> crying out loud. Use what ever suits your and your playmates.
>
> Although I would like to see your theory, and to see if it can be used to
> explain something that I just hasn't thought about.

As far as a theory goes, I'm not a biologist or geneticist, so I don't
really feel qualified to theorize about it. What I've said is as much as
I'm going to postulate.

> All you have done so far, is to criticize other theories because they must
> obviously be to simple.

Which they generally are. If it were something simple, the corporations of
2060 would be using the knowledge to do nasty (but profitable) things.

> And I'm sure they try. They haven't been able to locate the metagene. If they
> ever locate it it might be very difficult to change it without destroying it.

I'm thinking more of fetuses. If it's difficult to change it, they'll just
try it on a larger number of fetuses, implanting the one that survives.

> Remember this is a world where magic exists. Maybe even the metagene can cast an
> illusion spell on itself, and look exactly like a normal Human metagene, even if
> it is an Ork/Troll/Dwarf/Elf metagene?

In other words, genetic assays of people in 1990 would get different
results from genetic assays on the same people in 2060?

--
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change ready.
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Metagenes
Date: Tue Jan 29 17:35:00 2002
From: "Keith Duthie" <psycho@*********.co.nz>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>
> > You are probely right, just a shame it can never be proven.
>
> Proof is immaterial. All that's really required is an explanation that
> explains all known facts in a rational manner without resorting to
> pseudoscience or magic.

So how do you explain the existence of spirits in SR, if you can't use magic?

Or try to explain how tto cast a manaball, when you can't use magic in your
explanation.

In SR magic is a real thing, and some things can only be explained with "because
it's magic".

> I'm thinking more of fetuses. If it's difficult to change it, they'll just
> try it on a larger number of fetuses, implanting the one that survives.

I've got the memo from a top secret Ares R&D facility, it reads:
"Been there, done that, none of the 1.000.000 fetuses survived.
We have to conclude that you cannot change the gene, even though we have located
it."

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.

Further Reading

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