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Message no. 1
From: Shawn McCollum <Shawn_McCollum@*********.COM>
Subject: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:47:51 EST
After reading through some of the posts on the Elf-Shapeshifter
coupling. I started to wonder if a Shapeshifter can only transform
into a human. Think of running into a werebear troll in a dark alley.
Heck even meeting one during the day would curdle milk. I had never
thought of this before, I am guessing mostly on the fact that popular
fiction does not make the same links between humans and the metahuman
races that SR does. A troll in all the other RPG's I have played, are
considered a monster race and in no way associated to human's at all.
Anyway just a thought I thought I'd throw out there.

Andrew Payne
halberstam@***********.com
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:04:13 -0800
At 16:47 6/30/97 EST, Shawn McCollum wrote:
> After reading through some of the posts on the Elf-Shapeshifter
> coupling. I started to wonder if a Shapeshifter can only transform
> into a human.

Canonically, yes.

> Think of running into a werebear troll in a dark alley.

I have a Troll Physical Adept character-- an Initiate-- who is occasionally
in
the habit of wandering around masked to look like a piasma on the astral.
(A Troll is an Awakened human with tusks, and a piasma is an Awakened bear
with tusks...) He figures if he can leave observers wondering if he's a
werepiasma, it gives him an edge... but he'd be really surprised if he
really met one!

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 3
From: Doc <wacansler@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:28:10 -0500
On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Max Rible wrote:

Have any of you guys read into the shadow run compendem
about this subject??

It states there that shapeshifters are basical humans with the
some parts of the person taking on the characteristics of the
animal they shift to. (ie werecat having an enlogated face)

I will say however there is (not to my knowledge anyway) nothing
that says that the person couldn't shift into a meta-human as
base. I would just make it cost more under the point system
Or get permission from the GM in the priorties method.

-Allen

> At 16:47 6/30/97 EST, Shawn McCollum wrote:
> > After reading through some of the posts on the Elf-Shapeshifter
> > coupling. I started to wonder if a Shapeshifter can only transform
> > into a human.
>
> Canonically, yes.
>
> > Think of running into a werebear troll in a dark alley.
>
> I have a Troll Physical Adept character-- an Initiate-- who is occasionally
> in
> the habit of wandering around masked to look like a piasma on the astral.
> (A Troll is an Awakened human with tusks, and a piasma is an Awakened bear
> with tusks...) He figures if he can leave observers wondering if he's a
> werepiasma, it gives him an edge... but he'd be really surprised if he
> really met one!
>
> --
> %% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
> %% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..."
%%
>

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Message no. 4
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:17:07 EDT
On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:28:10 -0500 Doc <wacansler@*******.EDU> writes:
>On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Max Rible wrote:
>
>Have any of you guys read into the shadow run compendem about this
subject??


Actually, yes. And I read what it says in the main book. And I read
'Stryper Assasin', if only for the view on the shapeshifter mentality.
And it's a rules _companion_, not a compendium.


<<It states there that shapeshifters are basical humans with the some
parts of the person taking on the characteristics of the animal they
shift to. (ie werecat having an enlogated face) I will say however there
is (not to my knowledge anyway) nothing that says that the person
couldn't shift into a meta-human as base. I would just make it cost more
under the point system Or get permission from the GM in the priorties
method.>>


I've personally been of the opinion that the physical differences
between a were in human form and a human are subtle, at most. And while
there isn't anything that *specifically* says that the shapeshifter might
be a werewolf/elf or whatever, I don't see it happening. Not too long
ago, I watched (and almost participated in) a discussion on rgfc in which
one guy claimed that Wired Reflexes accelerated the user's thought
processes, while multiple people tried to tell him otherwise. His only
point was that there was nothing in the rules which explicitly said he
was wrong, and the same thing worked for the other side. The honest truth
is that the only support that the right (IMO) side has was/is common
sense. I think the same applies here.
Note: Weres in (canon) SR have only two forms, human and animal.
They are not like the weres of WoD, with multiple forms. They are not
like Odo from Deep Space 9. They have two, fixed forms.
Sure, there's nothing to forbid the idea of meta-weres, nothing
except the idea of game balance. Weres are pretty darn powerful as-is,
there's no need to add more stuff (which doesn't quite make sense, at
IMO) to make them more powerful.
All IMO, you can take it or leave it, as you like.

--
-Canthros, the one and only shapeshifter mage
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 5
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:36:48 -0700
---Doc wrote:
>
> On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Max Rible wrote:
>
> Have any of you guys read into the shadow run compendem
> about this subject??

When replying, could you please put it after (at the bottom of) the
orginal POST and snip off anything but the specific part you're
replying to. It make it alot easier to follow the thread and your
train of thought.

This kind of list etiquette is covered in the FAQ.

Thanx!

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 6
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:30:17 EDT
On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:04:13 -0800 Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
writes:

>I have a Troll Physical Adept character-- an Initiate-- who is
occasionally in
>the habit of wandering around masked to look like a piasma on the
astral.
>(A Troll is an Awakened human with tusks, and a piasma is an Awakened
bear
>with tusks...) He figures if he can leave observers wondering if he's a
>werepiasma, it gives him an edge... but he'd be really surprised if he
>really met one!

I wasn't aware that you could use aura masking to actively change and
alter your aura.... As I understand it the only option is to reduce how
magically active you appear.

~Tim
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:45:04 +0100
Shawn McCollum said on 16:47/30 Jun 97...

> After reading through some of the posts on the Elf-Shapeshifter
> coupling. I started to wonder if a Shapeshifter can only transform
> into a human. Think of running into a werebear troll in a dark alley.
> Heck even meeting one during the day would curdle milk. I had never
> thought of this before, I am guessing mostly on the fact that popular
> fiction does not make the same links between humans and the metahuman
> races that SR does. A troll in all the other RPG's I have played, are
> considered a monster race and in no way associated to human's at all.

The Companion (which has character creation rules for shapeshifters)
doesn't concern itself with metahumans at all. The character creation
table on page 36 has only one entry for race, namely "Shapeshifter"
(duh!). Since the other table on that page gives modifiers for "Human
form" it looks to me like shapeshifters always turn into a normal human,
not any metahuman race.

Allowing metahuman shapeshifters would be logical IMO, though it would
require re-writing the table I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All I need is a little oblivion.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 8
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:11:37 -0700
| The Companion (which has character creation rules for shapeshifters)
| doesn't concern itself with metahumans at all. The character creation
| table on page 36 has only one entry for race, namely "Shapeshifter"
| (duh!). Since the other table on that page gives modifiers for "Human
| form" it looks to me like shapeshifters always turn into a normal human,
| not any metahuman race.
|
| Allowing metahuman shapeshifters would be logical IMO, though it would
| require re-writing the table I think.

This question is more of a question of 2050's genetics I think than
anything else. IIRC there is a "metagene" that causes the person to
express into another race. If shapeshifter is counted as a race and
therefore covered by the same gene, then I can see a logical reason to say
that the two don't mix. Now granted this has never been outlined by FASA
it is just how I would justify it as a GM because I feel that metahuman
shapeshifters are a bit much. You have to admit that the troll bear
shapeshifter is a little daunting.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
Message no. 9
From: Swordman <swordman@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:18:55 -0500
Tim Cooper wrote:
> >I have a Troll Physical Adept character-- an Initiate-- who is
> occasionally in
> >the habit of wandering around masked to look like a piasma on the
> astral.
> I wasn't aware that you could use aura masking to actively change and
> alter your aura.... As I understand it the only option is to reduce how
> magically active you appear.
The aura is what ever you want it to be, so realy if the Troll's idealic
self is viewed as a piasma then he looks like one in astral space. We
had a mage that saw herself as a black widow, not that she had an
connection to insect totems.
My only question is how a physcial adept is masking his aura since then
don't commonly have access to astral space and the other tell tale sign
to distinguish an adept from a shape shifter is the troll would not be
dual natured and thus resctriced from regions that would restrict astral
travel (The Space needle) as well as not being astraly active unless he
walks around perceving all the time. So assensing him would show up with
a magical aura but no astral presence.
Message no. 10
From: Swordman <swordman@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:31:09 -0500
Caric wrote:
> | Allowing metahuman shapeshifters would be logical IMO, though it would
> | require re-writing the table I think.
> If shapeshifter is counted as a race and therefore covered by the same
>gene, then I can see a logical reason to say that the two don't mix.

Metahumans are just that, something beyond human, a Human that becomes
a Troll, or ork or was born in elven and dwarven form (or even Meta
variants). A shapeshifter is an animal first that later expresses the
ability to become a person (human), otherwise the shapeshifter would
have had to express metahuman traits before transforming into a biped,
so the real question should be, can we seriously percive of an Elf Tiger
or better yet Ork Basilisk, and how about a Troll Feathered Serpent?
Message no. 11
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:43:31 -0005
On 1 Jul 97 at 11:45, Gurth wrote:
>
> The Companion (which has character creation rules for shapeshifters)
> doesn't concern itself with metahumans at all. The character creation
> table on page 36 has only one entry for race, namely "Shapeshifter"
> (duh!). Since the other table on that page gives modifiers for "Human
> form" it looks to me like shapeshifters always turn into a normal human,
> not any metahuman race.
>
> Allowing metahuman shapeshifters would be logical IMO, though it would
> require re-writing the table I think.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it requires any rewriting of
the rules. Here's how I'd handle it. The shapeshifter has the option of
what (meta)human form they assume, whether it be human or otherwise.
Gender is always the same (male wolf becomes a male human or male elf or
male whatever). Stats don't change, so a fox-shapeshifter in Troll form
is going to be fairly punny troll, but would be a great elf. Likwise a
tiger shapeshifter could probably pass for a troll, but would be brawny
elf. The biggest trouble I see with this is a shapeshifter changing
meta-type as a form of disguise. But in a campaign allowing shapeshifters
to begin with this might not be much of a problem.
--

Ashlocke
(woneal@*******.net)

"We shall never be able to remove suspicion and fear
as potential causes of war until communication is
permitted to flow, free and open, across international
boundries." -- Harry S. Truman
Message no. 12
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:53:07 EDT
On Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:11:37 -0700 Caric <caric@********.COM> writes:
>This question is more of a question of 2050's genetics I think than
>anything else. IIRC there is a "metagene" that causes the person to
>express into another race. If shapeshifter is counted as a race and
>therefore covered by the same gene, then I can see a logical reason to
>say
>that the two don't mix. Now granted this has never been outlined by
>FASA
>it is just how I would justify it as a GM because I feel that
>metahuman
>shapeshifters are a bit much. You have to admit that the troll bear
>shapeshifter is a little daunting.


Technically, weres are a separate race from humanity (specifically, they
are the species bestiaforma mutabilis). Though they can assume the
characteristics of a human being, they remain non-humans. As for
appearing as anything besides a (mostly) normal human, I'd say no. But
that's my opinion, which is not really supported or denied. As far as I
know, however, it nowhere states that they shift into human or metahuman
form, all instances I've seen only mention a human form, rather that
(meta)human.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 13
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:53:07 EDT
On Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:18:55 -0500 Swordman <swordman@******.net> writes:

>The aura is what ever you want it to be, so realy if the Troll's
>idealic
>self is viewed as a piasma then he looks like one in astral space. We
>had a mage that saw herself as a black widow, not that she had an
>connection to insect totems.


No, your aura *always* reveals your true form. The only exception here is
that of Aura Masking. Your astral form will appear as your idealic self,
but will still reveal your true form unless you are capable of Masking
your aura. Your astral form and your aura are not exactly the same.
They're close, even related, but they are not the same. Assensing one's
aura or astral form will always reveal one's true form, with the only
exception being when someone is masking said aura.
It's not explicitly stated, but that's what I'm getting from the book.


>My only question is how a physcial adept is masking his aura since
>then
>don't commonly have access to astral space and the other tell tale
>sign
>to distinguish an adept from a shape shifter is the troll would not be
>dual natured and thus resctriced from regions that would restrict
>astral
>travel (The Space needle) as well as not being astraly active unless
>he
>walks around perceving all the time. So assensing him would show up
>with
>a magical aura but no astral presence.


The physad can mask his aura so long as he is initiated. That much is in
Awakenings. All initiates get access to Masking.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 14
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:52:37 -0700
| From: Swordman

| > | Allowing metahuman shapeshifters would be logical IMO, though it
would
| > | require re-writing the table I think.
| > If shapeshifter is counted as a race and therefore covered by the same
| >gene, then I can see a logical reason to say that the two don't mix.
|
| Metahumans are just that, something beyond human, a Human that becomes
| a Troll, or ork or was born in elven and dwarven form (or even Meta
| variants). A shapeshifter is an animal first that later expresses the
| ability to become a person (human), otherwise the shapeshifter would
| have had to express metahuman traits before transforming into a biped,
| so the real question should be, can we seriously percive of an Elf Tiger
| or better yet Ork Basilisk, and how about a Troll Feathered Serpent?

That's a good point Swordman...I certainly not justify meta-animals as a
creature variant, but I think that the question of what form a shapeshifter
takes is still going to be something left up to the GM. I would say that
you cannot be a meta-human shapeshifter for the simple sake of game
balance, the reason I stated earlier and the one the Swordman just outlined
would be some reason that I would use to justify it, but there are going to
be people who feel compelled to justify the other way, and I am sure that
they will find a way to do that as well.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
Message no. 15
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:55:19 -0700
| > Allowing metahuman shapeshifters would be logical IMO, though it would
| > require re-writing the table I think.
|
| I thought about this too, but I don't think it requires any
rewriting of
| the rules. Here's how I'd handle it. The shapeshifter has the option of
| what (meta)human form they assume, whether it be human or otherwise.
| Gender is always the same (male wolf becomes a male human or male elf or
| male whatever). Stats don't change, so a fox-shapeshifter in Troll form
| is going to be fairly punny troll, but would be a great elf. Likwise a
| tiger shapeshifter could probably pass for a troll, but would be brawny
| elf. The biggest trouble I see with this is a shapeshifter changing
| meta-type as a form of disguise. But in a campaign allowing
shapeshifters
| to begin with this might not be much of a problem.

Are you saying that if a bear shapeshifter turned into a troll that you
would give them the attribute modifiers as per a bear shapeshifter, but not
any of the mods for a troll? That's the way I read the above, so I wanted
to see if that is what you meant or not.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
Message no. 16
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:01:33 -0700
l Technically, weres are a separate race from humanity (specifically, they
| are the species bestiaforma mutabilis). Though they can assume the
| characteristics of a human being, they remain non-humans. As for
| appearing as anything besides a (mostly) normal human, I'd say no. But
| that's my opinion, which is not really supported or denied. As far as I
| know, however, it nowhere states that they shift into human or metahuman
| form, all instances I've seen only mention a human form, rather that
| (meta)human.

Exactly my point...I see weres as more of another race then a variation of
an existing race.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
Message no. 17
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:05:20 -0700
| >The aura is what ever you want it to be, so realy if the Troll's
| >idealic
| >self is viewed as a piasma then he looks like one in astral space. We
| >had a mage that saw herself as a black widow, not that she had an
| >connection to insect totems.
|
|
| No, your aura *always* reveals your true form. The only exception here is
| that of Aura Masking. Your astral form will appear as your idealic self,
| but will still reveal your true form unless you are capable of Masking
| your aura. Your astral form and your aura are not exactly the same.
| They're close, even related, but they are not the same. Assensing one's
| aura or astral form will always reveal one's true form, with the only
| exception being when someone is masking said aura.
| It's not explicitly stated, but that's what I'm getting from the book.

Correct Canthros, AKAIK the only real decisions you can make regarding your
auras appearance (without masking) is to add/change clothing and add other
tidbits like a staff or something like that. This staff wouldn't be good
for anything but looks, but it couls be there. I believe the default is an
idealized naked form of the magician. Now I am deriving most of this
opinion from novels granted, but Canthros is still correct about the aura
thing. :)


-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
Message no. 18
From: Katrina D'Avignon <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:34:57 -0500
> | >The aura is what ever you want it to be, so realy if the Troll's
> | >idealic
> | >self is viewed as a piasma then he looks like one in astral space. We
> | >had a mage that saw herself as a black widow, not that she had an
> | >connection to insect totems.
> |
> |
> | No, your aura *always* reveals your true form. The only exception here is
> | that of Aura Masking. Your astral form will appear as your idealic self,
> | but will still reveal your true form unless you are capable of Masking
> | your aura. Your astral form and your aura are not exactly the same.
> | They're close, even related, but they are not the same. Assensing one's
> | aura or astral form will always reveal one's true form, with the only
> | exception being when someone is masking said aura.
> | It's not explicitly stated, but that's what I'm getting from the book.
>
> Correct Canthros, AKAIK the only real decisions you can make regarding your
> auras appearance (without masking) is to add/change clothing and add other
> tidbits like a staff or something like that. This staff wouldn't be good
> for anything but looks, but it couls be there. I believe the default is an
> idealized naked form of the magician. Now I am deriving most of this
> opinion from novels granted, but Canthros is still correct about the aura
> thing. :)

Except that ones aura also shows one's mental and physical state,
and as such *must* change if ones mental state is radically altered
as is the case with a Transform spell.

But I won't go there because that's not what we're talking about. I
agree with Canthros and Caric in the above situation...

Gossamer
Message no. 19
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:17:20 -1000
>The only real decision you can make...
What if this were an advanced form of masking? Like Reflective
Shielding? If he was a multiple grade initiate I could see it easily.
Message no. 20
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:09:54 -0500
At 01-Jul-97 wrote Gurth:



>Allowing metahuman shapeshifters would be logical IMO, though it would
>require re-writing the table I think.

Just add the metahuman cost or priority B to the cost for a shapshifter.
Want both pay for both.
Thats the way we handle it in our game.

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:18:27 +0100
woneal@*******.NET said on 13:43/ 1 Jul 97...

> > Allowing metahuman shapeshifters would be logical IMO, though it would
> > require re-writing the table I think.
>
> I thought about this too, but I don't think it requires any rewriting of
> the rules. Here's how I'd handle it. The shapeshifter has the option of
> what (meta)human form they assume, whether it be human or otherwise.
> Gender is always the same (male wolf becomes a male human or male elf or
> male whatever). Stats don't change, so a fox-shapeshifter in Troll form
> is going to be fairly punny troll, but would be a great elf. Likwise a
> tiger shapeshifter could probably pass for a troll, but would be brawny
> elf. The biggest trouble I see with this is a shapeshifter changing
> meta-type as a form of disguise. But in a campaign allowing shapeshifters
> to begin with this might not be much of a problem.

That's a way I hadn't thought of. I was trying to find a way to
incorporate Human and Metahuman priorities into the table, so the
metahuman Attribute modifiers could then be applied to the character's
stats. This way the character would always change into the same
(meta)human species, rather than have a choice. For example, a
bear/troll would have +6 Body, -1 Quickness, +5 Strength, -2 Charisma, -2
Intelligence, and -1 Willpower in troll form, and the normal bear
modifiers in bear form.

A way this can be done is to charge the character priorities A _and_ B for
race, and modify Magic as follows: B: Human magician; C: Human
adept/Metahuman magician; D: Metahuman adept. This would still allow the
character to become a magician, except he/she won't have any priority left
for resources.

Strange is that the chargen rules fail to mention how to create a
shapeshifter with the Building Points rules. Logically it'd cost 10
points (as for a metahuman), but it's not mentioned anywhere I could
find.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 22
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:15:27 EDT
On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:34:57 -0500 "Gossamer"
<kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US> writes:

>But I won't go there because that's not what we're talking about. I
>agree with Canthros and Caric in the above situation...
>
>Gossamer


Wow! I think that's *twice* that Gossamer's agreed with me:)

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 23
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:25:51 -0005
On 2 Jul 97 at 11:18, Gurth wrote:

>
> Strange is that the chargen rules fail to mention how to create a
> shapeshifter with the Building Points rules. Logically it'd cost 10
> points (as for a metahuman), but it's not mentioned anywhere I could
> find.
>
I couldn't find it either. Generally I prefer the BP system over the
priority system. Considering all the gaps and holes in the Companion I'm
not too surprised. I think I'd charge more for a shapeshifter than a
metahuman, since shapeshifters are supposed to be rare. Say 15 - 20
points (off the top of my head) sound fair?
--

Ashlocke
(woneal@*******.net)

"We shall never be able to remove suspicion and fear
as potential causes of war until communication is
permitted to flow, free and open, across international
boundries." -- Harry S. Truman
Message no. 24
From: "Bryan L. Nylander" <bryan_nylander@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:40:13 -0700
woneal@*******.NET wrote:
>
> On 2 Jul 97 at 11:18, Gurth wrote:
>
> >
> > Strange is that the chargen rules fail to mention how to create a
> > shapeshifter with the Building Points rules. Logically it'd cost 10
> > points (as for a metahuman), but it's not mentioned anywhere I could
> > find.
> >
> I couldn't find it either. Generally I prefer the BP system
> over the
> priority system. Considering all the gaps and holes in the Companion
> I'm
> not too surprised. I think I'd charge more for a shapeshifter than a
> metahuman, since shapeshifters are supposed to be rare. Say 15 - 20
> points (off the top of my head) sound fair?
> --

In my games, I made ShapeShifters, or any Sentiant, <-- excuse the
spelling, creatures 35 points. Shape Shifters are Technically Paranormal
Animals, there for, I put the point cost across the board. I have one
player that wants to play a Sprite. Which each paranormal Animal comes
fairly potent Abilities. ShapeShifters in the most part, are VERY potent
charictors. (sames as the Vamp's) I had pondered taking the 35 much
higher, more like 45. This will make those charictors much "Younger" as
they begin.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters?
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:06:04 +0100
woneal@*******.NET said on 15:25/ 2 Jul 97...

> I couldn't find it either. Generally I prefer the BP system over the
> priority system. Considering all the gaps and holes in the Companion I'm
> not too surprised. I think I'd charge more for a shapeshifter than a
> metahuman, since shapeshifters are supposed to be rare. Say 15 - 20
> points (off the top of my head) sound fair?

For a shapeshifter, full magician costs less than shapeshifter, so from
that it would have to be at least 20 points, but OTOH on the normal table
priority A is for metahumans and B for full magician, just like for
shapeshifters. From that, I'd say 20 points is a good cost.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 26
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Metahuman Shapeshifters
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:52:52 -0400
I asked this on the list before, but there seems to be many new people so
I'll bring it up again. How many of you think that there are metahuman
shapeshifters, such as an elf that can turn into a leopard or a troll that
turns into a bull? I think it could be quite possible in the Awakened
world.

Lates,

Dust
Message no. 27
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:02:43 +0100
|I asked this on the list before, but there seems to be many new people so
|I'll bring it up again. How many of you think that there are metahuman
|shapeshifters, such as an elf that can turn into a leopard or a troll that
|turns into a bull? I think it could be quite possible in the Awakened
|world.

I think you got it the wrong way 'round....
It's a Leapard that turns into an elf, not vice versa....

I can't see any reason why shifters couldn't have any of the metatypes...
(But I think they'd be that way from birth... Wouldn't they?)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:52:49 -0500
At 04-Sep-97 wrote Dust:

>I asked this on the list before, but there seems to be many new people so
>I'll bring it up again. How many of you think that there are metahuman
>shapeshifters, such as an elf that can turn into a leopard or a troll that
>turns into a bull? I think it could be quite possible in the Awakened
>world.

its ok, it was only a few months ago:)
Why not, they are just more seldom than the normal shifters.
Oh, and its normaly the other way, we are born as animal.

Rules part:
We use following rules during chargen:
priority system A+B for race c for full magic d for adept, so no
resurcesses<grin>
building points 30 shaper + meta race points rest normal.
but be aware off the munchin potentiol of these creations.
troll-tiger anyone?

--
Barbie-The-Elven-Black-Panther-Shapeshifter


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 29
From: Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Metahuman Shapeshifters
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:39:06 PDT
Hiya Dust!

>I asked this on the list before, but there seems to be many new >people
so I'll bring it up again. How many of you think that there >are
metahuman shapeshifters, such as an elf that can turn into a >leopard or
a troll that turns into a bull? I think it could be quite >possible in
the Awakened world.
>
I personally think that this would be the case.

Question/Comment: "Traditional were" creatures were confined to
predator species (no herbivores). Are the shifters of shadowrun
different than the were creatures of other worlds? If so could any type
of animal have a shifter counterpart in the para-animal kingdom?

Green Dog


===========================================================
An upturned tortise is the nineth most pathetic thing in
the entire multiverse.
An upturned tortise that knows what is going to happen next
is, well, at least up there at number four.
--Small Gods


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