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Message no. 1
From: Marcel Emami <rab@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: metamagic
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 17:01:57 MEZ
I have some q's concerning metamagic.
Does anybody of your GM's out there also only give one Metamagic per
initiation grade. (for example :
Grade one i (the player) choose centering
Grade two i (the player) choose anchoring
Grade three i (the player) choose masking
....
)
So an lousy grade 0 initiate don't gent every metamagic.

Another Q aroused me concerning initiation:
In SR1 shamans get their inition grade to their totem bonus:
so a grade two wolf shaman gets a plus 4 on combat spells.
But i didn't found it in SR2.
Did Fasa forgett it or did they skip it? And if either how do you handle it.
do you give them totem modifiers plus ini-grade?

And for this gurps-vehicle stuff. Can i have a copy too?

Does anybody of you have GURPS-Cyberpunk AND GURPS-Cyberworld ??
IF yes what is the difference between the i do have GURPS-Cyberpunk and
have seen i a catalog that there is Cyberworld out, also.
Answer via this line or direkt to me.

--
The future's imploded into the present wi'no nuclear war the new battlefields
are the people's minds and souls. Megacorporation are the new government.
Computer generated invert domains are the new frontier
Though the is better living of fewer sound 'n chemstry we're all becomin'
cyborgs. The computer is the new tool to you. And though we say all infor-
mation should be free -it is not. Information is power abd currency in the
virtual world we inhabit. So mistrust authority, cyberpunks are the new
rebels, cyberculture is comming in under the radar of ordinary society. An
unholly allience with tech world and a world of organized descend.
Welcome to the cybercorporation
CYBERPUNKS.
Billy Idol-'Cyberpunk'

c u out there
RAB@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE
Message no. 2
From: The Reverend <mdb0213@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: metamagic
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 13:07:41 -0600
Initiation--my view: give 'em all the stuff when they get it. However,
consider the power of it before just "allowing" your players to get it. It
should be as hard to even LEARN about initiation as it would be to find a Beta
clinic. IMHO, (and all the regular list-members already know my view on this)
a good shadowclinic is an analog for initiation. If your mages can get
something this powerful, why shouldn't the Gumbi's get something similar?!

]In SR1 shamans get their inition grade to their totem bonus:
]so a grade two wolf shaman gets a plus 4 on combat spells.
]But i didn't found it in SR2.
]Did Fasa forgett it or did they skip it? And if either how do you handle it.
]do you give them totem modifiers plus ini-grade?
That's easy. They finally realized what a screw it was. They decided to
*gasp* apply game balance. It was an unbalancing thing in SR1, so they got rid
of it. good thing, too. I saw a 9th level Owl shaman initiate take abuse
(oops, I meant advantage. SURE I did! Riiight) of this. It was not a pretty
thing.

Also, mind cutting down your .sig a bit? 15 lines is a bit much, and annoys
those of us who actually have quotas and the like. It adds up!

Thanks, Rev (note the 3 line sig)
---
The Reverend "They called me the Reverend when I entered the church unstained"
Fear the Information Revolution...for it has reached the hands of the strange.
PGP 2.2 Public Key Block available upon request
Message no. 3
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:36:02 -0700
Okay, reading Harlequin's Back has started me thinking (ouch) and I now
have this question I would like to have answered.

It seems to me that Harlequin has metamagical powers far above and beyond
what is published. So does anybody have any ideas on what super high
level initiates (like plus 20) would be able to do? Any new metamagics
available to them? I'm thinking there might be, but I'm really not sure
of what kind.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 4
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 16:03:37 +1100
Erik writes:

> It seems to me that Harlequin has metamagical powers far above and beyond
> what is published. So does anybody have any ideas on what super high
> level initiates (like plus 20) would be able to do? Any new metamagics
> available to them? I'm thinking there might be, but I'm really not sure
> of what kind.

I'd almost bet there is more available to such powerful individuals, and SR
agrees with me - look at the quote at the start of "The Higher Mysteries" (I
think) in the Grimything. Maybe it's the quote at the start of "The Places"
(or whatever the section dealing with the metaplanes is called). As for what
they are, I'd say make it up. Say what feels good. Get $$&$ish or even
munchkinous. You could take a peek at ED for a few ideas I'd imagine.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 5
From: Stefan Willkofer <stefan.willkofer@*****.PHYSIK.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 14:57:37 --100
> It seems to me that Harlequin has metamagical powers far above and beyond
> what is published. So does anybody have any ideas on what super high
> level initiates (like plus 20) would be able to do? Any new metamagics
> available to them? I'm thinking there might be, but I'm really not sure
> of what kind.

You know that SR is ED +7000 years. In ED adepts can follow disciplines.
Every adept starts out with six Talents (mana-powered abilities). Every
character begins with First Circle. If a character fulfills certain
conditions he can advance to the next Circle, Circle 15 being the max.

This looks quite like Initiation. An initiate gains a grade and starts out
with 6 metamagical powers. We don't know what powers an adept gains when
his grade gets really high. (The grade 9 initiates are very powerful and
ambitious people and won't share their knolodge with other people, I'm
thinking of the british druids for instance.)
I didn't read -H-'s Back by now, but maybe some of his metamagical powers
are talents or abilities he gained in the 4th World. If those powers are
described you could cross reference them with ED material. (Lightbearers!)
Maybe you find similarities.

ThanX FoR YouR PreciuoS TimE
Mephisto ==St.Willkofer
Message no. 6
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 11:35:34 -0700
I thought that perhaps (as others have stated) that super-high metamagic
would resemble ED magic. But as I have no desire to purchase ED (not to
mention no money), could someone please send me privately some of those
powers? I would greatly apprecciate it.

Erikr, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:00:55 -0800
On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, Erik S Jameson wrote:

> It seems to me that Harlequin has metamagical powers far above and beyond
> what is published. So does anybody have any ideas on what super high
> level initiates (like plus 20) would be able to do? Any new metamagics
> available to them? I'm thinking there might be, but I'm really not sure
> of what kind.

He has Lightbearer powers from the Lightbearer Talent. It's in
the _Earthdawn Companion_.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 8
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 20:10:27 -0700
Whistler writes:
>It seems to me that Harlequin has metamagical powers far above and beyond
>what is published. So does anybody have any ideas on what super high
>level initiates (like plus 20) would be able to do? Any new metamagics
>available to them? I'm thinking there might be, but I'm really not sure
>of what kind.

yes they are much higher.

SPOILER!!!
SPOILER!!!
SPOILER!!!

Actually, around page 147 under H's description it goes about saying that the
best analogy for Harlequin would be a hermetic mage with an inittiate level in
the double digits (note - double digits are any where from 10 - 99!!).
It goes on to say that his magic functions differently that of today.

Pg 19 - H's "understanding of things is mush less linear than that (normal
meta-planes and such), and it is his view that matters. (YES, this does mean
that a character's world view shapes how magic works for him in the SHADOWRUN
universe.)"

This is course goes along well with my "magic is conceptual" stand point. :)

Nightfox
Stuck between Hermetic and Shaman points
of view.

BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Geek code V2.1 GE d-? H++ s+:->++: g+ p? !au(-) a21! w++ v+* C++$(++++)
U(-) p? L !3 E? N K- W M+ V+ -po+(---) Y+ t+ 5+++! j-x R+(++) G' tv
b+(+++) D(+) B--- e+ u+*(++)(**) h(*) f+(*) r-->+++ !n- y+*>++
Message no. 9
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 01:42:38 -0500
I happen to be working on a path of magick that is in terms of Shadowrun from
the Fourth World. Namely Atlantis. One thing a Fourth World mage might be
able to do, is to open portals between the planes (meta or otherwise). This
type of magick is very dangerous in that it would attract the attention of
others namely the Enemy.( Boy I feel shades of Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar
Saga coming through.) If anyone wonders what I'm talking about, E-mail me.
Tom Craig
Craigtw1@***.COM
Message no. 10
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: METAMAGIC
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:49:15 GMT
You know, if you guys didn't like those ones, Lone Wolf has a few other
_more powerful_ ones he was thinking about trying on me (he considers me
to be a fairly 'tight' GM), suich as Chanelling (I think), the ability to
create a semi-permanent power fuocs (????). The ability of initiates to
add their force to spells (?????!!!!), and the ability to chanell raw
astral energy onto the physical plane to do damage (sure sounds like a
spell to me Wolf).

'...The final thing, Phil Ward
it's not a drill. Runs-With-The-Pack
It's how many people I can kill' UWCC -: COMMMA
- Slayer P.Ward@**.cf.ac.uk
Message no. 11
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 19:47:34 -0500
>on the powers that an initiate gets and or how he/she gets
>them. When a mage becomes initiated, do they get all the
>metamagic skills mmediately? I just give my players level
>1's in all of them, but I think it might be unballancing
>the campaign...

Unfortunately, it seems they do. Initiation is a powerful thing and should
be handled as such. The strictures of magical groups can balance out the
benefits gained through initiation (e.g. attendance, obedience, secrecy).
So if players seem to be getting too many levels of initiation due to group
memebership, have a look at the strictures and make sure they have followed
the rules.

I don't know where exactly I heard this, I think it was from someone here on
the list about a year ago, but I seem to remember someone giving out one
metamagical ability per level of initiation in their campaign instead of
giving up everything at once. I like the idea and I believe it might solve
your problem. I don't know if its the rule (I all but refuse to initiate my
characters) or if it was a house rule, so take it as you will.

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* The problem with this country today is that we're *
* getting almost as much government as we pay for. *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:58:27 +0100
TopCat <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 19:47/28 Apr 96...

> I don't know where exactly I heard this, I think it was from someone here on
> the list about a year ago, but I seem to remember someone giving out one
> metamagical ability per level of initiation in their campaign instead of
> giving up everything at once. I like the idea and I believe it might solve
> your problem. I don't know if its the rule (I all but refuse to initiate my
> characters) or if it was a house rule, so take it as you will.

It's from NERPS: ShadowLore, and I am one of the GMs who apply this rule
to every initiate. The player gets to choose which ability the character
wants to learn, but the teacher must know it as well (or, if there is no
teacher, the player can just choose one -- the higher Karma cost pays for
this extra bit of knowledge).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
but it meant everything to me
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 13:03:58 +0100 (BST)
|
|>on the powers that an initiate gets and or how he/she gets
|>them. When a mage becomes initiated, do they get all the
|>metamagic skills mmediately? I just give my players level
|>1's in all of them, but I think it might be unballancing
|>the campaign...
|
|Unfortunately, it seems they do. Initiation is a powerful thing and should
|be handled as such. The strictures of magical groups can balance out the
|benefits gained through initiation (e.g. attendance, obedience, secrecy).
|So if players seem to be getting too many levels of initiation due to group
|memebership, have a look at the strictures and make sure they have followed
|the rules.

Actually, that's not quite true. Some of the meta-magical abilities base
their grade on the grade of the initiate, so a grade 0 initiate doesn't get
all the abilities.
Quickening, for example.
With quickening, the maximum force you can quicken a spell at is the
initiate grade, so, you can't quicken things at grade 0.

I think there are others, but I don't have the book on me at the moment.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: "Nichols (Jason/Christy)" <nicholch@*****.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 06:46:09 -0400
At 01:03 PM 4/29/96 +0100, A Halliwell wrote:
>
>Quickening, for example.
>With quickening, the maximum force you can quicken a spell at is the
>initiate grade, so, you can't quicken things at grade 0.

Where do you get this from? I don't see anything about the force you
can quicken at being limited by initiate grade. You are limited to twice
the force the spell was cast at (Grimy p.45). If I'm missing something,
please let me know, I do quite a bit of running at conventions and don't
enjoy being blindsided by the rules.>

Thanks,
Jason

>--
>______________________________________________________________________________
>| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
>|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
>| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
>|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
>|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
>|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
>|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message no. 15
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:03:49 +0100 (BST)
|
|At 01:03 PM 4/29/96 +0100, A Halliwell wrote:
|>
|>Quickening, for example.
|>With quickening, the maximum force you can quicken a spell at is the
|>initiate grade, so, you can't quicken things at grade 0.
|
|Where do you get this from? I don't see anything about the force you
|can quicken at being limited by initiate grade. You are limited to twice
|the force the spell was cast at (Grimy p.45). If I'm missing something,
|please let me know, I do quite a bit of running at conventions and don't
|enjoy being blindsided by the rules.>

Hmmmmm. I suppose I could have been wrong (and meant dispelling).
I'll look it up......
(It might have been a house rule...)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@*******.tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:05:28 -0500 (CDT)
Just two quick comments;
1) My system crashed the other day. I guess I'll see if I've been
unsubscribed.

2) IMHO the rules for initiation are fair and the P.C. SHOULD get
all the the level zero powers all at once. Most P.C.'s have to survive
several runs, AND eran the maximum amount of karma possible to even entertain
the idea of moving up. The karma requirements to get to level zero are quite
steep. Or you have to go through an ORDEAL, or join a group. Both options
have serious drawbacks. I think that whole thing is quite balanced as it
stands.

0.02 what? we round off at nickels nowadays.

Bill
Message no. 17
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:41:28 GMT
William Monroe Ashe writes
>
> 2) IMHO the rules for initiation are fair and the P.C. SHOULD get
> all the the level zero powers all at once. Most P.C.'s have to survive
> several runs, AND eran the maximum amount of karma possible to even entertain
> the idea of moving up. The karma requirements to get to level zero are quite
> steep.
I think its the fact that you can get grade 0 for a total of 12 karma
(1 skill 5 to 6) that annoys those that think its powerful.

> Or you have to go through an ORDEAL, or join a group. Both options
> have serious drawbacks.
Depends on the ordeal and group.
If you can form groups amongst PC's you only need two folks, that way
you can avoid annoying strictures like the NPC who can lord it over
you.

> I think that whole thing is quite balanced as it
> stands.
>
It is as i see it but mostly because the best things mean several
grades and that does add up very very fast.

> 0.02 what? we round off at nickels nowadays.
>
> Bill
>
Mark
Message no. 18
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:24:55 +0300 (EET DST)
On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, TopCat wrote:

> >on the powers that an initiate gets and or how he/she gets
> >them. When a mage becomes initiated, do they get all the
> >metamagic skills mmediately? I just give my players level
> >1's in all of them, but I think it might be unballancing
> >the campaign...
>
> Unfortunately, it seems they do. Initiation is a powerful thing and should
> be handled as such. The strictures of magical groups can balance out the

I'd like to second this. From the messages in this list and the NPCs FASA
has published recently initiation looks like something that comes
matter-of-fact. Players want to have PCs initiate already during
character creation, etc.

Many people here on this list already seem to have characters as level 6
initiates and higher.

No player character in any one of my games has ever initiated. Most don't
even know such things exist!

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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Message no. 19
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 14:06:50 -0500
At 01:24 PM 5/3/96 +0300, you wrote:
>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, TopCat wrote:
>
>> >on the powers that an initiate gets and or how he/she gets
>> >them. When a mage becomes initiated, do they get all the
>> >metamagic skills mmediately? I just give my players level
>> >1's in all of them, but I think it might be unballancing
>> >the campaign...
>>
>> Unfortunately, it seems they do. Initiation is a powerful thing and should
>> be handled as such. The strictures of magical groups can balance out the
>
>I'd like to second this. From the messages in this list and the NPCs FASA
>has published recently initiation looks like something that comes
>matter-of-fact. Players want to have PCs initiate already during
>character creation, etc.
>
>Many people here on this list already seem to have characters as level 6
>initiates and higher.
>
>No player character in any one of my games has ever initiated. Most don't
>even know such things exist!

Yes, but you have to realize that as time passes in the SR world the magic
level is riseing. More and more people are developing magical ability and
certain groups (ie colleges and corps) are constantly studying deeper into
magical theory and teaching these secrets to magic users... the word is on
the street..
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g192/thom0767/index.html
Message no. 20
From: melchar@****.darkside.com (Melchar)
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 03 May 96 13:58:33 PDT
Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi> writes:
> I'd like to second this. From the messages in this list and the NPCs FASA
> has published recently initiation looks like something that comes
> matter-of-fact. Players want to have PCs initiate already during
> character creation, etc.
>
> Many people here on this list already seem to have characters as level 6
> initiates and higher.
>
> No player character in any one of my games has ever initiated. Most don't
> even know such things exist!

So anyone have a good idea of what to do with players who go off, by
the Grimoire and suddenly begin bugging ya about how they want to be
initiated (can I spend my force points for it? -No- whine,mope)
And then when they decide that they can't work with a group and want
to self-initiate <sigh, shake head> what have other refs done?
Message no. 21
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 23:00:59 -0500
> So anyone have a good idea of what to do with players who go off, by
>the Grimoire and suddenly begin bugging ya about how they want to be
>initiated (can I spend my force points for it? -No- whine,mope)

I would never let anyone spend force points on initiation.

> And then when they decide that they can't work with a group and want
>to self-initiate <sigh, shake head> what have other refs done?

When I GM'd, I let the players form their own group (none of them could find
a group, or if they did, the group wouldn't have them). It cost them a lot
of karma, and they failed their first attempt at astral contact (mother of a
target number). On their second chance, they decided to load the group up
with restrictions (that weren't supposed to be all that restricting *grin*)
so they could get a lower number. They got it.

About 4 sessions later, the players were stranded in London at the time of
their monthly meeting (which had to be held at their safehouse in Seattle).
Also, the group had not been making its payments, so they lost the safehouse
anyway. So they'd dumped a huge amount of karma and lost their spiritual
contact again.

Shortly thereafter came the great cataclysm of the group as many of the
members either realized they weren't cut out for gaming or they moved.
Since then, we've shrunk down to 3-5 players at a session and its working
much better. Only our mage (the sack of blood) initiates, and it hasn't
done a thing for him.

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 22
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 13:52:20 +0200
At 22:58 Uhr 3.05.96, Melchar wrote:
> So anyone have a good idea of what to do with players who go off, by
>the Grimoire and suddenly begin bugging ya about how they want to be
>initiated (can I spend my force points for it? -No- whine,mope)
> And then when they decide that they can't work with a group and want
>to self-initiate <sigh, shake head> what have other refs done?

In our group there are two magicians, a hermetic mage and a shaman. The Mage
is the character of one of our GMs, the shaman the character of the other
(me). They did a couple of runs together whenever someone else volunteered
to GM, and are the only magicians they trust.

Just one problem... when we wanted to start a group, we couldn't figure
out when.
Imagine: Both characters do heavy reseach on magical groups, stealing
information et all, and then, when one character says 'OK, let's do it'
the other was out on a run - and vice versa :-(

So both characters did self-initiate, and the GM did demand to let them
do research on this, too. Both the other GM and I did a special run with
this - he for me, I for him.

I tell you, sometimes life is complicated :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 23
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 18:07:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>> on the powers that an initiate gets and or how he/she gets
>>> them. When a mage becomes initiated, do they get all the
>>> metamagic skills mmediately? I just give my players level
>>> 1's in all of them, but I think it might be unballancing
>>> the campaign...

((I really don't see initiation unbalancing the game. Sure, it makes
mages more powerful, but hey?, isn't that what spending Karma does?
Anyway, the metamagic skills don't unbalance things... Centering, sure it
does wonders for drain and penalties, but you have to buy a skill for it,
requiring more karma. Quickening, costs MORE karma, Anchoring... you
guessed it... Masking is handy, yes, but it isn't overpowerful...

And whaddya mean, a skill of 1? AFAIK, metamagic doesn't have
skill ratings...))

> initiation looks like something that comes
> matter-of-fact. Players want to have PCs initiate already during
> character creation, etc.

((It all depends on your campaign. If the cyber-guys are going to ahve
access to better equipment, and aplha/beta 'ware, then you should give
access to inititate groups. And under no circumstances should you allow
initiation during char creation. That is something that should be
reserved for the expereiencing of the char... A starting char is just
that; a BEGINNING char... they shouldn't have ethe experience of an
initiated mage

> Many people here on this list already seem to have characters as level 6
> initiates and higher.

((At home, our original SRII party that we've been playing for two years
now has a grade 10 hermetic, a grade 10 PhyAd, and a grade 7 Dog Shaman;
as well as my char, a security specialist with a pistols of 14, and
others...

It al depends on the GM/players and campaign decisions...)

(sorry, it was a little long...)

---Tom---
Message no. 24
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 13:29:07 GMT
Melchar writes

> So anyone have a good idea of what to do with players who go off, by
> the Grimoire and suddenly begin bugging ya about how they want to be
> initiated (can I spend my force points for it? -No- whine,mope)
Ok so the player has some 'player' information, well you can argue
with them but at the end of the day only thier concience stops visits
to the shop. (well bank balance might work but you don't control that)

If thier characters want initiated thier 'characters' not them need
to find out about it. You have control, though obviously some
consensus might help everyones enjoyment of the game even if its
limited to the GM defending his/her point of view. I get annoyed by
GM's that simply say 'you cannot do' a few whys and 'i don't think it
balanced because' gets a LOT further [no one said all the way].

> And then when they decide that they can't work with a group and want
> to self-initiate <sigh, shake head> what have other refs done?
>
They still need the info on how to do it. If you are into 2057 then by
FASA's campain timeline they really should have fairly easy access
though of course you can still say no. Try saying they should look up
how at the library, i mean the corp one that only lets in legal
citizens (now how good was that fake ID, just make sure the lonestar
sourcebook is handy and visible) plenty of methods work.

At the end of the day though if you let the non magicians get alpha,
beta ware (let alone delta) and/or bioware the magicains should be
allowed to initiate its only fair. Initiation and subltey is nice but
firearm 10, big nasty smartgun firing APDS and wired 3 beats just
about anything for opposition termination.

Mark
Message no. 25
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 17:08:55 -0500
>At the end of the day though if you let the non magicians get alpha,
>beta ware (let alone delta) and/or bioware the magicains should be
>allowed to initiate its only fair.

Here is represented a little peeve of mine...

Alpha-grade cyberware is readily available in 2057 (per Cybertechnology).
Beta is easier to get than it was, but still not easy. Delta is all but
unheard of. Bioware is also readily available and it seems as if cultured
bioware is too.

Now, due to costs and the limited resources of starting characters, I feel
that normal and alpha grade cyberware should be available at character
generation. I also feel that bioware should be too (cultured as well).

Now, before I get yapped at for giving things away to 'ware-types (even
though the books say "this is available") I'd like to explain myself a bit
in my usual stream-of-thought way.

Without any doubt, magicians and shamans are the most powerful archetypes in
SR. You can argue all you want about this, but when you crunch the numbers
for hours on end (as I am wont to do, Champions player that I am) you find
this to be the irrefutable proof. So does it really hurt the game to allow
alphaware (0.8 essence for 3x cost) and bioware (WAY expensive)? No. More
reasons to follow.

If only base 'ware is used, too many people will drop their character into a
template (wired 2, smartlink, eye mods, etc) and they end up just like every
other cyber-schmoe out there. What happens when you give 'em the ability to
take more stuff and to cram more of it into them? They begin to create a
character around the 'ware. Instead of loading up as normal, they might
grab that mnemonic enhancer (with a few maps its as good as an orientation
computer, besides all the other benefits) or maybe an alpha-grade commlink
with all the goodies (the essence cost isn't nearly as heinous then and the
nuyen cost is low enough to make alpha-grade worth it).

Instead of the typical "street samurai" you get a guy who can actually do
something other than move fast and shoot accurately. You might even end up
with something that doesn't look like FASA printed it at one time or another.

Another thing, magicians and physads and everything under SR's skies (and
above them) can use any 'ware. So don't EVEN try to convince me that this
is strictly a samurai thing. Alpha-grade makes for lower-essence costs as
well, which makes cyberware more tempting for magic types, besides giving
all those silly adepts with A resources a place to dump some cash.

As I said before, this is the way the game is in 2057. If you want lower
power, allow the same but keep resources to B or lower. If you want lower
still, then go with C resources or maybe go by the Shadowrun MUSH character
generation numbers (they produce decent low-power characters in a fair
manner). If you want mages to run rampant, use "straight from SRII only"
rules except for letting mages grab spells from other books or make their
own at chargen (which is what a lot of people do, but that isn't biased for
mages, it's just the way the game is *catches some sarcasm that was dripping
down his chin*).

So here's a point, and I'll end it after this, many GM's (mostly without
realizing they do it) make life hideously easy for mages (who have it
easiest already) by allowing them goodies from the Grimmy or Awakenings but
steadfastly refuse to allow things from Shadowtech or Cybertechnology
because they make samurai too powerful (???).

I love samurai, I'm the Last of the Samurai/Mohicans (or at least I was,
Paul and Eve also can lay claim to that title), but I am also a fair man.
And for the most part, people don't give 'ware a fair shake. So here I am
asking for that and that alone. Watch the numbers carefully and you'll see
what I've known and preached/ranted all along.


--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 26
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 19:49:19 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 7 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> >At the end of the day though if you let the non magicians get alpha,
> >beta ware (let alone delta) and/or bioware the magicains should be
> >allowed to initiate its only fair.
>
> Here is represented a little peeve of mine...
>
> Alpha-grade cyberware is readily available in 2057 (per Cybertechnology).
> Beta is easier to get than it was, but still not easy. Delta is all but
> unheard of. Bioware is also readily available and it seems as if cultured
> bioware is too.
>
> Now, due to costs and the limited resources of starting characters, I feel
> that normal and alpha grade cyberware should be available at character
> generation. I also feel that bioware should be too (cultured as well).
>
> Now, before I get yapped at for giving things away to 'ware-types (even
> though the books say "this is available") I'd like to explain myself a bit
> in my usual stream-of-thought way.
>
> Without any doubt, magicians and shamans are the most powerful archetypes in
> SR. You can argue all you want about this, but when you crunch the numbers
> for hours on end (as I am wont to do, Champions player that I am) you find
> this to be the irrefutable proof. So does it really hurt the game to allow
> alphaware (0.8 essence for 3x cost) and bioware (WAY expensive)? No. More
> reasons to follow.
>
> If only base 'ware is used, too many people will drop their character into a
> template (wired 2, smartlink, eye mods, etc) and they end up just like every
> other cyber-schmoe out there. What happens when you give 'em the ability to
> take more stuff and to cram more of it into them? They begin to create a
> character around the 'ware. Instead of loading up as normal, they might
> grab that mnemonic enhancer (with a few maps its as good as an orientation
> computer, besides all the other benefits) or maybe an alpha-grade commlink
> with all the goodies (the essence cost isn't nearly as heinous then and the
> nuyen cost is low enough to make alpha-grade worth it).
>
> Instead of the typical "street samurai" you get a guy who can actually do
> something other than move fast and shoot accurately. You might even end up
> with something that doesn't look like FASA printed it at one time or another.
>
> Another thing, magicians and physads and everything under SR's skies (and
> above them) can use any 'ware. So don't EVEN try to convince me that this
> is strictly a samurai thing. Alpha-grade makes for lower-essence costs as
> well, which makes cyberware more tempting for magic types, besides giving
> all those silly adepts with A resources a place to dump some cash.
>
> As I said before, this is the way the game is in 2057. If you want lower
> power, allow the same but keep resources to B or lower. If you want lower
> still, then go with C resources or maybe go by the Shadowrun MUSH character
> generation numbers (they produce decent low-power characters in a fair
> manner). If you want mages to run rampant, use "straight from SRII only"
> rules except for letting mages grab spells from other books or make their
> own at chargen (which is what a lot of people do, but that isn't biased for
> mages, it's just the way the game is *catches some sarcasm that was dripping
> down his chin*).
>
> So here's a point, and I'll end it after this, many GM's (mostly without
> realizing they do it) make life hideously easy for mages (who have it
> easiest already) by allowing them goodies from the Grimmy or Awakenings but
> steadfastly refuse to allow things from Shadowtech or Cybertechnology
> because they make samurai too powerful (???).
>
> I love samurai, I'm the Last of the Samurai/Mohicans (or at least I was,
> Paul and Eve also can lay claim to that title), but I am also a fair man.
> And for the most part, people don't give 'ware a fair shake. So here I am
> asking for that and that alone. Watch the numbers carefully and you'll see
> what I've known and preached/ranted all along.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> * Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
> * Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
> --------------------------------------------------------
> * All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
> * an empty room and the right kind of people *
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
AMEN.>
Message no. 27
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:50:28 -0500
At 07:49 PM 5/7/96 -0400, Valerie A. Olson wrote:
>>[snipped my preaching on 'ware]

> AMEN.>

Valerie A. Olson, you are hereby inducted into the ranks of the
Mohicans/Samurai...

*taps each shoulder lightly with a monosword held in an articulate arm*

Welcome to the club. There's no real benefits, no drawbacks, and really
only one commitment: Preach against the magic-using hordes that would deny
us our toys. Not hard, huh? Kinda fun when you really get around to it, too ;)

*CHEER! CHEER! CHEER!*

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 21:38:16 +1030
>Now, due to costs and the limited resources of starting characters, I feel
>that normal and alpha grade cyberware should be available at character
>generation. I also feel that bioware should be too (cultured as well).

Sure, if you want to, go ahead... my _personal_ arguement is that for ANY
cyber or illegal/permit type stuff, you need to explain how you got it,
though. It's got to fit in. (I had one guy who wanted to explain having a
million nuyen (Resources A) by being the kid of a megacorp boss, and then
wanted to have Wired 3... it doesn't hold water)

OTH, I limit what kind of things mages can start out with as well... I
play for roleplaying, and to me, that's always meant that character
development is important.



--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 29
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 20:37:51 GMT
In message <9605072208.AA08089@**.cencom.net> TopCat writes:
> Here is represented a little peeve of mine...
> Alpha-grade cyberware is readily available in 2057 (per Cybertechnology).
> Beta is easier to get than it was, but still not easy. Delta is all but
> unheard of. Bioware is also readily available and it seems as if cultured
> bioware is too.
>
> Now, due to costs and the limited resources of starting characters, I feel
> that normal and alpha grade cyberware should be available at character
> generation. I also feel that bioware should be too (cultured as well).

I do this too. Yes, you can have betaware. Yes, you pay full price for it.
If you want a delta-grade Smartlink II, you can have it, but it's thirty
thousand newyen. Make some hard choices :)

> If only base 'ware is used, too many people will drop their character into a
> template (wired 2, smartlink, eye mods, etc) and they end up just like every
> other cyber-schmoe out there.

Horribly true, in a game with reasonable amounts of combat. You need to
roleplay the samurai/mercs well to tell them apart :)

> What happens when you give 'em the ability to
> take more stuff and to cram more of it into them? They begin to create a
> character around the 'ware.

Tradeoffs. Choices. Decisions. Gaining strengths and weaknesses. In other
words, fun....

Also, good for background. Where *did* they get that delta-grade stuff from?
Who wants it back? (in or out of your body...) We always figured that the
good background was the key: Sasha, my other merc, had alpha and beta grade
stuff, but he was a Spetznaz defector... which bought him a *lot* of trouble
and several excellent runs.

> Another thing, magicians and physads and everything under SR's skies (and
> above them) can use any 'ware. So don't EVEN try to convince me that this
> is strictly a samurai thing. Alpha-grade makes for lower-essence costs as
> well, which makes cyberware more tempting for magic types, besides giving
> all those silly adepts with A resources a place to dump some cash.

Yeah, I always like watching mages wriggle over whether to get cybereyes or
not :)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude
towards him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem.
For better or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." R. A. Lafferty

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 30
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:18:11 -0500
>> Another thing, magicians and physads and everything under SR's skies (and
>> above them) can use any 'ware. So don't EVEN try to convince me that this
>> is strictly a samurai thing. Alpha-grade makes for lower-essence costs as
>> well, which makes cyberware more tempting for magic types, besides giving
>> all those silly adepts with A resources a place to dump some cash.

>Yeah, I always like watching mages wriggle over whether to get cybereyes or
>not :)

I prefer to watch 'em wriggle on a spit over an open flame ;)

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 19:51:05 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 7 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> At 07:49 PM 5/7/96 -0400, Valerie A. Olson wrote:
> >>[snipped my preaching on 'ware]
>
> > AMEN.>
>
> Valerie A. Olson, you are hereby inducted into the ranks of the
> Mohicans/Samurai...
>
> *taps each shoulder lightly with a monosword held in an articulate arm*
>
> Welcome to the club. There's no real benefits, no drawbacks, and really
> only one commitment: Preach against the magic-using hordes that would deny
> us our toys. Not hard, huh? Kinda fun when you really get around to it, too ;)
>
> *CHEER! CHEER! CHEER!*
>
Well God bless your chrome soul. So, what are two words mages hate most?

Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe. Heh, heh, heh,

The ROO-MAN.
Using his wifes account.
Message no. 32
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 3:10:07 EDT
TopCat writes:
>
> >> Another thing, magicians and physads and everything under SR's skies (and
> >> above them) can use any 'ware. So don't EVEN try to convince me that this
> >> is strictly a samurai thing. Alpha-grade makes for lower-essence costs as
> >> well, which makes cyberware more tempting for magic types, besides giving
> >> all those silly adepts with A resources a place to dump some cash.
>
> >Yeah, I always like watching mages wriggle over whether to get cybereyes or
> >not :)
>
> I prefer to watch 'em wriggle on a spit over an open flame ;)

Chest's nuts roasting on an open fire:)

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 11:37:22 GMT + 2:00
@ >> Another thing, magicians and physads and everything under SR's skies (and
@ >> above them) can use any 'ware. So don't EVEN try to convince me that this
@
@ >> is strictly a samurai thing. Alpha-grade makes for lower-essence costs as
@
@ >> well, which makes cyberware more tempting for magic types, besides giving
@ >> all those silly adepts with A resources a place to dump some cash.
@
@ >Yeah, I always like watching mages wriggle over whether to get cybereyes or
@ >not :)
@
@ I prefer to watch 'em wriggle on a spit over an open flame ;)

No No, you've both got it wrong. You allow them to sneak around
with their little invisibility spells then introduce them to high
speed lead. Listening to thier final gasps is very satisifying. <My
character doesn't like things he can't see> <grin>



Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 34
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:12:57 +0100
Valerie A Olson said on 19:51/ 8 May 96...

> Well God bless your chrome soul. So, what are two words mages hate most?
>
> Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe. Heh, heh,
heh,

Me: "Roll initiative."
[Shaman's player rolls 3+4D6]
Me: "17, right?"
Shaman's player: "No, 18 this time. Oh wait, Light stun... yes, 17."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"They" can do anything they want.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 35
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 20:37:51 GMT
In message <9605072208.AA08089@**.cencom.net> TopCat writes:
> Here is represented a little peeve of mine...
> Alpha-grade cyberware is readily available in 2057 (per Cybertechnology).
> Beta is easier to get than it was, but still not easy. Delta is all but
> unheard of. Bioware is also readily available and it seems as if cultured
> bioware is too.
>
> Now, due to costs and the limited resources of starting characters, I feel
> that normal and alpha grade cyberware should be available at character
> generation. I also feel that bioware should be too (cultured as well).

I do this too. Yes, you can have betaware. Yes, you pay full price for it.
If you want a delta-grade Smartlink II, you can have it, but it's thirty
thousand newyen. Make some hard choices :)

> If only base 'ware is used, too many people will drop their character into a
> template (wired 2, smartlink, eye mods, etc) and they end up just like every
> other cyber-schmoe out there.

Horribly true, in a game with reasonable amounts of combat. You need to
roleplay the samurai/mercs well to tell them apart :)

> What happens when you give 'em the ability to
> take more stuff and to cram more of it into them? They begin to create a
> character around the 'ware.

Tradeoffs. Choices. Decisions. Gaining strengths and weaknesses. In other
words, fun....

Also, good for background. Where *did* they get that delta-grade stuff from?
Who wants it back? (in or out of your body...) We always figured that the
good background was the key: Sasha, my other merc, had alpha and beta grade
stuff, but he was a Spetznaz defector... which bought him a *lot* of trouble
and several excellent runs.

> Another thing, magicians and physads and everything under SR's skies (and
> above them) can use any 'ware. So don't EVEN try to convince me that this
> is strictly a samurai thing. Alpha-grade makes for lower-essence costs as
> well, which makes cyberware more tempting for magic types, besides giving
> all those silly adepts with A resources a place to dump some cash.

Yeah, I always like watching mages wriggle over whether to get cybereyes or
not :)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude
towards him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem.
For better or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." R. A. Lafferty

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 36
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 17:26:02 -0500
> Well God bless your chrome soul. So, what are two words mages hate most?
>
> Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe. Heh, heh, heh,
>
> The ROO-MAN.
> Using his wifes account.

I thought the two words mages hated most were "resist damage" ;)

And, what the hell, you're in the club too...

*does a quick tap on each of his shoulders*

You know the rest :)


--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 37
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 17:26:07 -0500
> No No, you've both got it wrong. You allow them to sneak around
>with their little invisibility spells then introduce them to high
>speed lead. Listening to thier final gasps is very satisifying. <My
>character doesn't like things he can't see> <grin>

Heheheh, one of the funniest things I ever saw was a mage (who at the time
thought he was quite powerful) getting beaten on by 2 trolls with pool cues.
He said he could handle trolls anytime with a manaball. They decided to
test him. He turned on his invisibility spell lock and tried to hide. The
fight didn't last long, he passed out almost immediately from stun damage
and the rest of us pummelled the trolls with gel rounds. He's been pretty
quiet about such thoughts since then ;)

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 38
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 17:26:10 -0500
>> Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe. Heh, heh,
heh,

>Me: "Roll initiative."
>[Shaman's player rolls 3+4D6]
>Me: "17, right?"
>Shaman's player: "No, 18 this time. Oh wait, Light stun... yes, 17."

He got a spell lock/magnet or is it quickened and waiting to be burst by a
random mage or mana barrier? ;)

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 39
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 19:34:11 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 9 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> >> Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe. Heh,
heh, heh,
>
> >Me: "Roll initiative."
> >[Shaman's player rolls 3+4D6]
> >Me: "17, right?"
> >Shaman's player: "No, 18 this time. Oh wait, Light stun... yes, 17."
>
ME: "Oh, a 17?"
[Troll rolls 3d6+15]
Me: "Oh, a 28?" *BOOM!*
Shaman:"AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!" *Splat!*
ME: " You should see it when I roll well!"
Heh,heh,heh,heh.

ROO-MAN.
Message no. 40
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 17:23:44 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe.
Heh, heh, heh,

>>> Me: "Roll initiative."
>>> [Shaman's player rolls 3+4D6]
>>> Me: "17, right?"
>>> Shaman's player: "No, 18 this time. Oh wait, Light stun... yes,
17."
>>
> ME: "Oh, a 17?"
> [Troll rolls 3d6+15]
> Me: "Oh, a 28?" *BOOM!*
> Shaman:"AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!" *Splat!*
> ME: " You should see it when I roll well!"
> Heh,heh,heh,heh.

((You guys really gotta get some nastier mages... the mage we have in our
previous party has an inititiative of 19+4d6... eveything masked too...
not to mentiont the fact that you can't really hurt him with unless
you have APDS... (high force barrier)... and no he's not just a
monster... he's part of the group that we had 'run from 2050 to 2057 (and
now on to 2058!)...))


---Tom---
Message no. 41
From: "Randy Nickel (General)" <a-randyn@*********.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 17:18:56 -0700
> Well God bless your chrome soul. So, what are two words mages hate
most?
>
> Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe. Heh,
heh, heh,
>
> The ROO-MAN.
> Using his wifes account.


I think the mage that goes behind a Sam does not know what he is doing.
Let look at what a properly created magi can do.

Hmmm....Increase Quickness, Intelligence, Willpower & Reaction at +4.
In Spell Locks of course.

Gives you +8 Reaction, +6 Combat Pool.

Then +3d6 Initiative, also spell locked.

As for damage I go one word for you Anchoring. You want another three
Personal Physical Barrier. Physical Barrier does not impede spells,
even Manipulation Spells take a look at the spell description on the
Spell section of SRII.

I can maintain a Pers. Phys. Barrier (level 6) and cast Lightning Volt,
or Fire Bomb. And Centering allows me to remove penalties.

I will put my Druid up against any Sam any time. Vehicles do not count.


Randy Nickel
Message no. 42
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 21:06:43 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 9 May 1996, Randy Nickel (General) wrote:

> > Well God bless your chrome soul. So, what are two words mages hate
> most?
> >
> > Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe. Heh,
> heh, heh,
> >
> > The ROO-MAN.
> > Using his wifes account.
>
>
> I think the mage that goes behind a Sam does not know what he is doing.
> Let look at what a properly created magi can do.
>
> Hmmm....Increase Quickness, Intelligence, Willpower & Reaction at +4.
> In Spell Locks of course.
>
> Gives you +8 Reaction, +6 Combat Pool.
>
> Then +3d6 Initiative, also spell locked.
>
> As for damage I go one word for you Anchoring. You want another three
> Personal Physical Barrier. Physical Barrier does not impede spells,
> even Manipulation Spells take a look at the spell description on the
> Spell section of SRII.
>
> I can maintain a Pers. Phys. Barrier (level 6) and cast Lightning Volt,
> or Fire Bomb. And Centering allows me to remove penalties.
>
> I will put my Druid up against any Sam any time. Vehicles do not count.
>
>
> Randy Nickel
>
O.k, so what level initiate are you, that you can mask all this? or do
you just glow on the astral with a neon sighn that screams " Here I am !
come nuke me!" ?


ROO-MAN.
Message no. 43
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:47:09 -0700 (PDT)
> I think the mage that goes behind a Sam does not know what he is doing.
> Let look at what a properly created magi can do.
>
> Hmmm....Increase Quickness, Intelligence, Willpower & Reaction at +4.
> In Spell Locks of course.

((I'm a great fan of mages (although I've never played one), but
remember to be able to mask those suckers or you're dog meat))

> Gives you +8 Reaction, +6 Combat Pool.
> Then +3d6 Initiative, also spell locked.

((Also those take up alot of locks...))

> As for damage I go one word for you Anchoring. You want another three
> Personal Physical Barrier. Physical Barrier does not impede spells,
> even Manipulation Spells take a look at the spell description on the
> Spell section of SRII.

((My bros mage Garth (grade 10 now), has a personal barrier 8 locked (yes
you can turn locks off, i.e. make them inactive w/o unbonding them)))


> I will put my Druid up against any Sam any time. Vehicles do not count.

((Garth isn't the useful member of the party, but he sure is the most
powerful.. and he's 150 Karma BEHIND my char!))


---Tom---
Message no. 44
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:50:10 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Well God bless your chrome soul. So, what are two words mages hate
> > most?
> > >
> > > Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe. Heh,

> > heh, heh,

> > I think the mage that goes behind a Sam does not know what he is doing.
> > Let look at what a properly created magi can do.

> > In Spell Locks of course.

<<snip>>

> > I will put my Druid up against any Sam any time. Vehicles do not count.

> O.k, so what level initiate are you, that you can mask all this? or do
> you just glow on the astral with a neon sighn that screams " Here I am !
> come nuke me!" ?

((And how much alpha/beta/delta does this cyber freak have that he goes
like a bat out of hell?))


---Tom---
Message no. 45
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:02:53 -0600
>> Gives you +8 Reaction, +6 Combat Pool.
>> Then +3d6 Initiative, also spell locked.
>
>((Also those take up alot of locks...))
>
>> As for damage I go one word for you Anchoring. You want another three
>> Personal Physical Barrier. Physical Barrier does not impede spells,
>> even Manipulation Spells take a look at the spell description on the
>> Spell section of SRII.
>
>((My bros mage Garth (grade 10 now), has a personal barrier 8 locked (yes
>you can turn locks off, i.e. make them inactive w/o unbonding them)))
>

Sure you can use spell locks to improve your speed, but there is still a
trade off you have to make. In order to protect yourself from astral
attacks, you have the spells on locks that can be activated or deactivated.


Fine, but what about when you are surprised. Your reaction is unchanged
untill the turn _after_ you activate your locks. While you are prepairing
yourself to fight, your opponent has two (or more) unopposed chances to
geek you. Better hope your cybered cohorts are covering your ass.

As for Masking the locks, in order to keep them active don't count on it.
The chance of seeing through the mask is determined by the difference in
Initiation Grades between the masked and the observer. If you have
attained 10th grade, you better believe the opposition has the possibility
to do the same (if not more).

After all, it aint no fun if there's no one who can realistically challange you.

Piatro
Message no. 46
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 06:20:51 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 9 May 1996, Tom Pendergrast wrote:

>
>
> > > > Well God bless your chrome soul. So, what are two words mages hate
> > > most?
> > > >
> > > > Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe.
Heh,
> > > heh, heh,
>
> > > I think the mage that goes behind a Sam does not know what he is doing.
> > > Let look at what a properly created magi can do.
>
> > > In Spell Locks of course.
>
> <<snip>>
>
> > > I will put my Druid up against any Sam any time. Vehicles do not count.
>
> > O.k, so what level initiate are you, that you can mask all this? or do
> > you just glow on the astral with a neon sighn that screams " Here I am !
> > come nuke me!" ?
>
> ((And how much alpha/beta/delta does this cyber freak have that he goes
> like a bat out of hell?))
>
>
> ---Tom---
>
The only beta that my Troll has is his bone lacing. A 15 reaction isn't
that hard to get, especialy with a troll ( lots of room for bioware.)

Cheers
ROO-MAN.
Message no. 47
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:01 +0100
TopCat said on 17:26/ 9 May 96...

> >Me: "Roll initiative."
> >[Shaman's player rolls 3+4D6]
> >Me: "17, right?"
> >Shaman's player: "No, 18 this time. Oh wait, Light stun... yes, 17."
>
> He got a spell lock/magnet or is it quickened and waiting to be burst by a
> random mage or mana barrier? ;)

A spell lock and 6 grades of initiation. Which is why there isn't, in my
game anyway, a plausible reason why the spell lock would get attacked by
the first mage the PCs have to combat...

Still, that doesn't mean the lock is safe *GM grin*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Magazines and free soda.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 48
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:01 +0100
Tom Pendergrast said on 17:23/ 9 May 96...

> ((You guys really gotta get some nastier mages... the mage we have in our
> previous party has an inititiative of 19+4d6... eveything masked too...
> not to mentiont the fact that you can't really hurt him with unless
> you have APDS... (high force barrier)...

I hold the opinion that bullet barriers don't care whether the bullet is
APDS, flechette, explosive, regular, or whatever. It's just "a bullet"
regardless of its special effects when it hits the target. Same with the
armor that spirits get when they manifest.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Magazines and free soda.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 49
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:01 +0100
Valerie A Olson said on 21:06/ 9 May 96...

> > Hmmm....Increase Quickness, Intelligence, Willpower & Reaction at +4.
> > In Spell Locks of course.
[snip]
> > I can maintain a Pers. Phys. Barrier (level 6) and cast Lightning Volt,
> > or Fire Bomb. And Centering allows me to remove penalties.
> >
> O.k, so what level initiate are you, that you can mask all this? or do
> you just glow on the astral with a neon sighn that screams " Here I am !
> come nuke me!" ?

He'd only need to be grade 4 -- a spell lock is a rating 1 focus,
remember? Granted, if he sustains the Barrier spell that can still be
grounded through unless he gains another six grades.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Magazines and free soda.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 50
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:14:34 GMT
> From: "Randy Nickel (General)" <a-randyn@*********.com>

> I think the mage that goes behind a Sam does not know what he is doing.
> Let look at what a properly created magi can do.
>
> Hmmm....Increase Quickness, Intelligence, Willpower & Reaction at +4.
> In Spell Locks of course.
>
> Gives you +8 Reaction, +6 Combat Pool.
>
> Then +3d6 Initiative, also spell locked.
>
yep, unless you get into stacking dice boosts or move by wire the
average mage (+3D6) locked is equiv to wired2 and the all bells above
is ok vs wired3 and a few tweaks, the race is about even though the
mundanes need a lot of money and the magicians need a lot of karma
(for all the masking needed to make the locked christmas tree vaugely
safe)


> As for damage I go one word for you Anchoring. You want another three
> Personal Physical Barrier. Physical Barrier does not impede spells,
> even Manipulation Spells take a look at the spell description on the
> Spell section of SRII.
>
ooh karma, glug glug glug.

> I can maintain a Pers. Phys. Barrier (level 6) and cast Lightning Volt,
> or Fire Bomb. And Centering allows me to remove penalties.
>
Trauma dampner, why roll dice :)

> I will put my Druid up against any Sam any time. Vehicles do not count.
>
fine, Yahamha pulsar, big net gun. splat wrap zap!! So you didn't get
hurt, but +5 all target nos shock plus wrapped up works a treat now
dose on hyper to suit, add nerostun (barrier spells don't block
gasses) and magemask at your lesuire.
Mind it works just as well on the bone laced orthoskinned, stacked
armoured troll sams :)

>
> Randy Nickel
>
Mark
Message no. 51
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:26:38 GMT
Peter writes
>
> As for Masking the locks, in order to keep them active don't count on it.
> The chance of seeing through the mask is determined by the difference in
> Initiation Grades between the masked and the observer. If you have
> attained 10th grade, you better believe the opposition has the possibility
> to do the same (if not more).
>
They do have to go metaplanar to 'read true aura' all the astral scan
roll tell you is ' the guy/lady is masking, ususally enough. The best
trashed enemy was the UB's secretary at missing blood, due to wards
astral was down so i had to make the 'notice spellcasting' but 'the
receptionist, get her' into a micro trasciver, worked wonders!,
riggers with linked LMG's are wonderfull when they know who to shoot,
goodbye went the oppositions sheilding oops.

> After all, it aint no fun if there's no one who can realistically
> challange you.
>
> Piatro
>
>
>
Message no. 52
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:04:20 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 9 May 1996, Valerie A Olson wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 9 May 1996, TopCat wrote:
>
> > >> Roll initiative! " Oh? I go first? and second?" BOOM! wipe.
Heh, heh, heh,
> >
> > >Me: "Roll initiative."
> > >[Shaman's player rolls 3+4D6]
> > >Me: "17, right?"
> > >Shaman's player: "No, 18 this time. Oh wait, Light stun... yes,
17."
> >
> ME: "Oh, a 17?"
> [Troll rolls 3d6+15]
> Me: "Oh, a 28?" *BOOM!*
> Shaman:"AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!" *Splat!*
> ME: " You should see it when I roll well!"


A troll with 15 reaction? I think that would take more chrome and
bioware than I should like to consider... *shudder*


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 53
From: "Randy Nickel (General)" <a-randyn@*********.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:39:52 -0700
My long time character, two and a half years of play, is Inititiate 8.
But a starting Mage could do most of the same thing with out Masking.

If you are a Hermetic, keep elementals around to intercept anything
going after your precious spelllocks. If your a Shaman keep a Spirit of
whatever domain your in around you at all times. Plus keep a Watcher or
two around as back-up to intercept spells.

It is not very hard to make Mages that strip Sams to the bones in one
action, two tops. Actions not turns.

Randy
Message no. 54
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 17:55:44 +0200
At 3:06 Uhr 10.05.96, Valerie A Olson wrote:
[Stuff about Sam vs Magician snipped ... too dump]
>O.k, so what level initiate are you, that you can mask all this? or do
>you just glow on the astral with a neon sighn that screams " Here I am !
>come nuke me!" ?
a) Lvl 5 Initiate would do, Spelllocks are Lvl. 1.
b) Carrying an Assault Cannon with you and dare talking about 'obviousness'?
Hah!

Let's stop this stupid threat, errr, thread, ASAP, _PLEASE_ !
Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 55
From: "Randy Nickel (General)" <a-randyn@*********.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:54:23 -0700
Sure you can use spell locks to improve your speed, but there is still
a
trade off you have to make. In order to protect yourself from astral
attacks, you have the spells on locks that can be activated or
deactivated.

*** OK. Let's go with the Initiate Grade 1 or 0 that Anchors them or
better yet Quickens them at a decent Force and then use extra Karma to
make them better able to defend themselves.

Force 5 + 4 Quickness (Quickened) with an extra 5 Karma in it gives it
10 dice of defense. Let's not forget my Spirits, me, and any other mage
in the party. ****


Fine, but what about when you are surprised. Your reaction is
unchanged
untill the turn _after_ you activate your locks. While you are
prepairing
yourself to fight, your opponent has two (or more) unopposed chances to
geek you. Better hope your cybered cohorts are covering your ass.

****If you are reallying to heavilly on your locks and you can not Mask
them or do not have Quickened spells, I agree. That is why the good
mage keeps a Sam bodyguard around.****

As for Masking the locks, in order to keep them active don't count on
it.
The chance of seeing through the mask is determined by the difference
in
Initiation Grades between the masked and the observer. If you have
attained 10th grade, you better believe the opposition has the
possibility
to do the same (if not more).

**** Once again I agree, but I do not believe that all mages walk
around observing astrall space and trying to break through Masking.
Some are paid to do so but that is different.****


Randy
Message no. 56
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:02:23 -0500
>It is not very hard to make Mages that strip Sams to the bones in one
>action, two tops. Actions not turns.
>
>Randy
>
Wow. All of you guys who are saying that Mages can take out street sams
should be in marketing. You only use the info that you like and compare the
best product to the average or worse of your competitor. I know some guys
you should talk to. However. If we take the best street sam designs, and
throw them at your great mage designs, they'll lose the combat. How much
damage do you think you can do to the troll tank? And do you really think
you'll get to go before the speed elf? And those are starting out
characters. Now if you want to add all the karma that you used to up your
initiate grades and by spell locks and all the extras that go with it, and I
apply that to a street sam, you'll still lose combat. Initiate 8, huh? How
about you go up against my street sam with a MBW4, muscle aug, synaptic
accelarator 1, and an unarmed combat skill of 12. Hell, I should just
shoot you instead. Throw in his combat pool and you'll still be toast,
cause I'll go first. Called shot modifier is +4, smartgun link makes t# -2,
take one simple action to aim, use his eye image magnification for short
range, t# 3 and 14 dice (his skill is 7 with firearms) and likely average 7
successes and lets see how you handle a head shot.

House rule: The way I run it, the first pairs of success go to staging the
damage up, and all the extras past deadly are "saved". In other words. If
you shoot someone with a 9m damage pistol, and get 7 successes, they take a
deadly wound, with 3 successes left over. When they stage down the damage,
they have to get three successes to just make it a deadly wound.

You may be able to design a kick ass mage, but given the same resources, I
can make a street sam that's going to make the mage a part of the
Rorsheck(sp?) test.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"Madness takes it's toll. Please have exact change."
Message no. 57
From: paolo@*********.it (Paolo Marcucci)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 18:29:48 +0200
Oh no, not again.... mages vs sams... it comes up every month and a half.

BTW, my physad kicks asses all around, mages and/or sams :)

Paolo

> You may be able to design a kick ass mage, but given the same resources,
I
> can make a street sam that's going to make the mage a part of the
> Rorsheck(sp?) test.
Message no. 58
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.COM>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:25:14 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >It is not very hard to make Mages that strip Sams to the bones in one
> >action, two tops. Actions not turns.
> >
> >Randy
> >
> Wow. All of you guys who are saying that Mages can take out street sams
> should be in marketing. You only use the info that you like and compare the
> best product to the average or worse of your competitor. I know some guys
> you should talk to. However. If we take the best street sam designs, and
> throw them at your great mage designs, they'll lose the combat. How much
> damage do you think you can do to the troll tank? And do you really think
> you'll get to go before the speed elf? And those are starting out
> characters. Now if you want to add all the karma that you used to up your
> initiate grades and by spell locks and all the extras that go with it, and I
> apply that to a street sam, you'll still lose combat. Initiate 8, huh? How
> about you go up against my street sam with a MBW4, muscle aug, synaptic
> accelarator 1, and an unarmed combat skill of 12. Hell, I should just
> shoot you instead. Throw in his combat pool and you'll still be toast,
> cause I'll go first. Called shot modifier is +4, smartgun link makes t# -2,
> take one simple action to aim, use his eye image magnification for short
> range, t# 3 and 14 dice (his skill is 7 with firearms) and likely average 7
> successes and lets see how you handle a head shot.
>

High force personal bullet barrier, high force elementals, and run like
hell. Then I wait a couple months for your street sammie gets brain
fried from his MBW, and his muscle aug goes into overstress, then kick
back and laugh my scrawny ass off before capping you off with a
streetline special at pointblank range to your forhead, which you might
be able to do something about if you weren't having an epileptic fit. =)

But then, I've also seen high chrome street sammies get really screwed
over by mages they underestimated.


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 59
From: "Randy Nickel (General)" <a-randyn@*********.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:46:26 -0700
((I'm a great fan of mages (although I've never played one), but
remember to be able to mask those suckers or you're dog meat))

***Why!! Dog meat from who? If you are a party like ours, three mage
types, a sam, and a decker/rigger, I am not too worried about magical
stuff coming after us.

Lets not forget that Spelllocks can be turned off and on when
needed.***

> Gives you +8 Reaction, +6 Combat Pool.
> Then +3d6 Initiative, also spell locked.

((Also those take up alot of locks...))

*** 4 spell locks tops! ***

((My bros mage Garth (grade 10 now), has a personal barrier 8 locked
(yes
you can turn locks off, i.e. make them inactive w/o unbonding them)))

*** Anchor the spell with a Detect Excessive Kinetic Energy Spell, what
you don't have that one, make it and set the level of Kinetic Energy
that would harm you (a fired projectile, the swing of an arm or weapon,
etc..) then also put a voice command in a language that most others
don't know.

Randy
Message no. 60
From: "Randy Nickel (General)" <a-randyn@*********.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:11:35 -0700
fine, Yahamha pulsar, big net gun. splat wrap zap!! So you didn't get
hurt, but +5 all target nos shock plus wrapped up works a treat now
dose on hyper to suit, add nerostun (barrier spells don't block
gasses) and magemask at your lesuire.
Mind it works just as well on the bone laced orthoskinned, stacked
armoured troll sams :)


Ah the Net Gun. Let's look at target number for that. No let's not it
will take too long. I do not believe a Net Gun can use a Smartgun Link,
maybe a Smart Link II though. But I would only give a +1 bonus.

You can only put as much Combat pool as your Firearms Skill and I on
the other hand can use my whole Combat Pool to Dodge. With my own
character having a Quickened Combat Sense with an extra 7 dice to my
pool that is quite a few dice!

I commonly have my characters start the game with Full Spectrum
Immunization (Shadowtech page 75), or get it first thing I can. If not
FSI, then at least to NeuroStun as I use Neuro Stun grenades also. It's
fun to throw about 3 or 4 and walk through the gas. :-)

Randy
Message no. 61
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:54:41 -0600 (MDT)
Mike Broadwater wrote:
|
|>It is not very hard to make Mages that strip Sams to the bones in one
|>action, two tops. Actions not turns.
|>
|>Randy
|>
|
|You may be able to design a kick ass mage, but given the same resources, I
|can make a street sam that's going to make the mage a part of the
|Rorsheck(sp?) test.

In an encounter where everything is equaled out (both have spent the same
amount of karma, both are prepared) I think it would be a lot closer than
you think. Try it out with one of the people you game with and get another
person to GM it.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 62
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:57:24 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Paolo Marcucci wrote:

> Oh no, not again.... mages vs sams... it comes up every month and a half.
>
> BTW, my physad kicks asses all around, mages and/or sams :)
>
> Paolo
>
> > You may be able to design a kick ass mage, but given the same resources,
> I
> > can make a street sam that's going to make the mage a part of the
> > Rorsheck(sp?) test.
>
>
>

Dude... my OTAKU has a big six-pack of whoop-ass for all y'all. Or he
would if I hadn't been opressed by the man! (after seeing how high my
character's unarmed combat skill was, the street sammies and physads
whined because I was a 12 year old decker, and they were 20 year old
bruisers... They ruled that you couldn't have a skill, even if it's a
conectration or specilization, more than 2.5 times the relevant attribute on
the skill web... and when your racial max is 3 for Str, Quik, and Body...
that sucks. I ultimately think it's because my character is Japanese and
my GM is Jewish... ;))

I suppose my character has an indirect way of dealing with threats. He
doesn't attack them. He finds out who hates you, finds out where you
live, and sends a wee bit of email off to the interested parties.... I
actually did that to a fellow party member who harrassed other players
both in-character and out of character... I believe it was after, for no
reason at all, our Cat shaman returned to find several hundred rather
smelly rodents in a writhing mass across his apartment's floor. The
shaman's pet cat was too scared to even come down from it's perch.

Note to our GM: I'm informing Renraku of Dreadful's home address,
frequent haunts, etc.

It would have been cool if the street sammie had lived long enough for
retribution to come to its fullness...



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 63
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:35:42 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Dr. Bolthy von Schotz wrote:

>
> On Fri, 10 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>
> > >It is not very hard to make Mages that strip Sams to the bones in one
> > >action, two tops. Actions not turns.
> > >
> > >Randy
> > >
> > Wow. All of you guys who are saying that Mages can take out street sams
> > should be in marketing. You only use the info that you like and compare the
> > best product to the average or worse of your competitor. I know some guys
> > you should talk to. However. If we take the best street sam designs, and
> > throw them at your great mage designs, they'll lose the combat. How much
> > damage do you think you can do to the troll tank? And do you really think
> > you'll get to go before the speed elf? And those are starting out
> > characters. Now if you want to add all the karma that you used to up your
> > initiate grades and by spell locks and all the extras that go with it, and I
> > apply that to a street sam, you'll still lose combat. Initiate 8, huh? How
> > about you go up against my street sam with a MBW4, muscle aug, synaptic
> > accelarator 1, and an unarmed combat skill of 12. Hell, I should just
> > shoot you instead. Throw in his combat pool and you'll still be toast,
> > cause I'll go first. Called shot modifier is +4, smartgun link makes t# -2,
> > take one simple action to aim, use his eye image magnification for short
> > range, t# 3 and 14 dice (his skill is 7 with firearms) and likely average 7
> > successes and lets see how you handle a head shot.
> >
>
> High force personal bullet barrier, high force elementals, and run like
> hell. Then I wait a couple months for your street sammie gets brain
> fried from his MBW, and his muscle aug goes into overstress, then kick
> back and laugh my scrawny ass off before capping you off with a
> streetline special at pointblank range to your forhead, which you might
> be able to do something about if you weren't having an epileptic fit. =)
>
> But then, I've also seen high chrome street sammies get really screwed
> over by mages they underestimated.
>

Appending my own post with some things that occured to me while I napped
in logic:

Throw in a high force mana bolt to boot, which has no range modifier. I
can see you, I can zap you. *zot* Beter hope that while you beefed up
your firearms and physical stats, you paid attention to your willpower.

Oh, and Move-By-Wire Level 4 takes 6.35 essence, and 3 MILLION nuyen.
That means you need Cybermancy, which means you need a deltagrade
clinic... and an invoked memory stimulator... Which could be good,
because cyberzombies are a bit more immune to magic but could be bad
since cyberzombies have a lower damage overflow threshhold, and can
occasionally rot (ewww, stinky). Either that, or you manage to lay your
grubby paws on close to 10 Mill and get Alpha grade... and if your fixer
can lay his grubby paws on an Alpha Clinic that has MBW 4, I'd be
impressed... Hell, if you could make 10 million nuyen, I'd be
impressed... =)




|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 64
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:23:41 -0500
>Oh, and Move-By-Wire Level 4 takes 6.35 essence, and 3 MILLION nuyen.
>That means you need Cybermancy, which means you need a deltagrade
>clinic...
Excuse me, but what idiot would get a MBW4 at standard cost? If you're at a
delta clinic, you get it as delta grade. Duh. In my game, thats as
possible as being able to be a grade 10 initiate

>and an invoked memory stimulator... Which could be good,
>because cyberzombies are a bit more immune to magic but could be bad
>since cyberzombies have a lower damage overflow threshhold, and can
>occasionally rot (ewww, stinky).
Well, since he's not a cyberzombie, none of this applys. And you only rot
if your dead. Cyberzombies are still alive.

>Either that, or you manage to lay your
>grubby paws on close to 10 Mill and get Alpha grade... and if your fixer
>can lay his grubby paws on an Alpha Clinic that has MBW 4, I'd be
>impressed... Hell, if you could make 10 million nuyen, I'd be
>impressed... =)
If you can get enough karma to be a grade 10 initiate, as some people have
mentioned, and then survived the actual initiation (unless of course, your
just a munchkin who says "oh, I spend the karma and am now more powerful")
then good for you, but it still doesn't change what I was talking about.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 65
From: Lars M Ericson <lericson@***.edu>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:04:46 -0500
I wholeheartedly believe this thread has degenerated into:
"My Character's Cooler!"
"No! Mine is!"

Mages, Street Sams, Deckers, Phys Ads. They all have their benefits
and drawbacks. Sure a street sam might be able to react quicker and
gun down a phys ad, but no if the phys ad is hiding in the shadows
with his 12 Stealth and guns him down from surprise.

Leet's kill this thread NOW! Look at the title and you'll see how far
it has strayed from the original idea.
Message no. 66
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:35:35 -0500
At 06:29 PM 5/10/96 +0200, Paolo wrote:
>Oh no, not again.... mages vs sams... it comes up every month and a half.
>
>BTW, my physad kicks asses all around, mages and/or sams :)

He can kick all the asses he wants, he has to hurt the guy in the process to
impress me though ;)

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 67
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:35:54 -0700 (PDT)
> Fine, but what about when you are surprised. Your reaction is unchanged
> untill the turn _after_ you activate your locks. While you are prepairing
> yourself to fight, your opponent has two (or more) unopposed chances to
> geek you. Better hope your cybered cohorts are covering your ass.

((If you're planning on getting into trouble, turn them on before you get
into a situation in which you might get surprised... admittedly, the only
sure way to avoid getting caught with your foci down is to have them on
all the time, but you really don't want to advertise like that... just be
smart, careful, and prudent (geeky voice "Nope. Not gonna do it. Just
wouldn't be prudent") That's generally the best you can do. Nothing is
infallible, but its the best for the mages))

> If you have attained 10th grade, you better believe the opposition has the
> possibility to do the same (if not more).

((Believe me I know that... there is group of badguys in our campaign
that we play off and on now... the biggest guy is a grade 30+? hermetic, oh
yeah... he a three-thousand year old vampire too...

There are also several other guys... a 15+? Vampire PhyAd, a 12+?
Vamp Shaman, a 12+? Vamp Blood Shaman... needless to say, we never go up
against these guys directly... but the background power they wield is
enough to make our group (1600 Karma among five chars) quake in their
boots!))

> After all, it aint no fun if there's no one who can realistically challange you.

((Our GM is just the kind of twisted guy that that wil never happen...))


---Tom---
Message no. 68
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:17:11 -0700 (PDT)
> ((I'm a great fan of mages (although I've never played one), but
> remember to be able to mask those suckers or you're dog meat))
>
> ***Why!! Dog meat from who? If you are a party like ours, three mage
> types, a sam, and a decker/rigger, I am not too worried about magical
> stuff coming after us.

((Your group is relatively unbalanced... mages are approx 1% of the
population and you have three??))

---Tom---
Message no. 69
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
> |You may be able to design a kick ass mage, but given the same resources, I
> |can make a street sam that's going to make the mage a part of the
> |Rorsheck(sp?) test.
>
> In an encounter where everything is equaled out (both have spent the same
> amount of karma, both are prepared) I think it would be a lot closer than
> you think. Try it out with one of the people you game with and get another
> person to GM it.

We already did that with my old group... the mage beat every cybered
person in the party... in two different scenarios... and this was when
the mage had never been played, and the cyber-guys had 30+ Karma...


---Tom---
Message no. 70
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
> >Oh, and Move-By-Wire Level 4 takes 6.35 essence, and 3 MILLION nuyen.
> >That means you need Cybermancy, which means you need a deltagrade
> >clinic...

> Excuse me, but what idiot would get a MBW4 at standard cost? If you're at a
> delta clinic, you get it as delta grade. Duh. In my game, thats as
> possible as being able to be a grade 10 initiate

((The grade 10 mage in question earned the karma, and went through SEPARATE
ordeals for each grade... and don't tell me that having a pice of 30
Million NY cyberware is easier than gradually working your char up...
inititation or otherwise...))

---Tom---
Message no. 71
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:57:16 -0500
>You can only put as much Combat pool as your Firearms Skill and I on
>the other hand can use my whole Combat Pool to Dodge. With my own
>character having a Quickened Combat Sense with an extra 7 dice to my
>pool that is quite a few dice!

So's the 30'ish dice I can roll to attack with my Gun Bunny Deluxe...and
he's a starting level character. Give me the karma and cash you've
accumulated to spend on him and I'd be in the 40's. Can you dodge 20
successes? More? You'll have to ;)

The GBD doesn't miss. And isn't there something about turning on spell
locks we've been missing? (takes a simple action to turn on). When the
samurai does go before you (which'll happen, the tactical computer pretty
much assures that) you'll be caught with your locks off, and that's not a
pretty way to die. It isn't like I wouldn't see the mage, I have nearly
every sense enhancement in the book on the GBD. Nor is it like you could do
much to him (with that kind of karmic fun, I should be around a 12
willpower/body). You could try to shoot him or throw damaging manipulations
his way (tactical computer helps with ALL Combat Success Tests, which means
dodging). Which means I won't be hit. You could, of course, run with your
locks on, but wasn't that a big part of your argument? That they wouldn't
be on?

Did I mention the stealth skill? Camouflage clothes? An armor rating that
puts hard combat armor to shame while not taking combat pool mods? How
about Panther Assault Cannon with smartlink II? With the kind of cash we're
talking about, I could buy up a laser guidance system and drop artillery on
the poor mage til my trigger finger got cramped. With the kind of karma
we're talking about, I could have a stealth of around 9 or more easy.
Figure in the mods for camo clothes and I could practically walk up to him
to deliver the kill.

Anyways, you've got a character loaded with karma and cash and you think
he's unbeatable. Well, nobody's unbeatable. Welcome to the first day of
the rest of your enlightened life.

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 72
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:57:35 -0500
>In an encounter where everything is equaled out (both have spent the same
>amount of karma, both are prepared) I think it would be a lot closer than
>you think. Try it out with one of the people you game with and get another
>person to GM it.

Have done so. It became a game of mutually assured destruction. Neither
character could see the other (the mage was about a mile away but couldn't
see through all the cover to the samurai). If either one moved, he would be
subject to the others' attack and neither was willing to make that move.

Interesting experiment, anyway...

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 73
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:57:26 -0500
>A spell lock and 6 grades of initiation. Which is why there isn't, in my
>game anyway, a plausible reason why the spell lock would get attacked by
>the first mage the PCs have to combat...
>
>Still, that doesn't mean the lock is safe *GM grin*

As I have mentioned before, I have "patrols" of ganger mages and shamans
just waiting for a lock to drop a spell through in the astral (in certain
areas anyway). I also use this in corp sites, but on a much nastier level
(our players don't like corp penetrations). Doesn't matter what level you
are when you get a powerbolt grounded through you to start off a fight
against someone who you don't even know is there. You need to spend the
action to go astral as well, while the attacker could have bolted by then or
could be dropping more astral nastiness at leisure.

GM's... don't let your mages off the hook easy. They know there's a price
to pay for doing little things wrong, sometimes they just need a reminder ;)

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 74
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:57:29 -0500
>Throw in a high force mana bolt to boot, which has no range modifier. I
>can see you, I can zap you. *zot* Beter hope that while you beefed up
>your firearms and physical stats, you paid attention to your willpower.

Mana Bolt does have a few other restrictions, though...

1) Vision range (equal to shotgun ranges in SRII)
1a) which may be increased by optical binocs
2) Vision itself, you have to see the target
2a) Cover is always around somewhere
2b) Stealth + minor cover + vision mods = "what target?"
3) Drain
4) What if the target DOES have a high willpower? Ouch.

All of these make for low probability of actually hurting the target. As I
said before, GM's make it easy on their mages...turn up the heat a little ;)


--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 75
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:57:40 -0500
>>Oh, and Move-By-Wire Level 4 takes 6.35 essence, and 3 MILLION nuyen.
>>That means you need Cybermancy, which means you need a deltagrade
>>clinic...
>Excuse me, but what idiot would get a MBW4 at standard cost? If you're at a
>delta clinic, you get it as delta grade. Duh. In my game, thats as
>possible as being able to be a grade 10 initiate

I can't believe this... all it took was meeting the guy and now I'm gonna
actually AGREE with him! He must've slipped something in my drink...

Anyways, Grade 10 initiation would be at best equally as difficult to attain
as finding a delta clinic willing to work on you. At worst, it would be
impossible. I like the idea of "gunslinger mentality" in NPC's. It's not
so good to be the best on the block and have people know about it (and I
don't know how they couldn't know about G10).

>>and an invoked memory stimulator... Which could be good,
>>because cyberzombies are a bit more immune to magic but could be bad
>>since cyberzombies have a lower damage overflow threshhold, and can
>>occasionally rot (ewww, stinky).
>Well, since he's not a cyberzombie, none of this applys. And you only rot
>if your dead. Cyberzombies are still alive.

Make a cyberzombie, with the cash that this mage has probably hauled in, you
could do it easily. What's that? You want to actually try and cast a spell
at me? *chuckle-snort* Have your advil handy ;)

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 76
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 23:57:38 -0500
>But then, I've also seen high chrome street sammies get really screwed
>over by mages they underestimated.

Anyone who underestimates anyone'll end up dead. There's too many mages
wearing that particular badge (often resembling a bullethole) to put the tag
on samurai alone. Your GM must be nice to the magekins...

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 77
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@**.elec.uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 19:57:17 +1000 (EST)
Lars writes:

> Mages, Street Sams, Deckers, Phys Ads. They all have their benefits
> and drawbacks. Sure a street sam might be able to react quicker and
> gun down a phys ad, but no if the phys ad is hiding in the shadows
> with his 12 Stealth and guns him down from surprise.

This reminds me - Marc (or anyone else), do you still happen to have a
copy of your "Mages vs Sammys vs Deckers vs Riggers vs Fixers vs etc
etc etc" post? I'd really like a copy for my archives - it was a
surpurb post.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@**.elec.uow.edu.au

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Message no. 78
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 20:51:29 +1030
>>and an invoked memory stimulator... Which could be good,
>>because cyberzombies are a bit more immune to magic but could be bad
>>since cyberzombies have a lower damage overflow threshhold, and can
>>occasionally rot (ewww, stinky).
>Well, since he's not a cyberzombie, none of this applys. And you only rot
>if your dead. Cyberzombies are still alive.

No, no, no... first of all, Cyberzombies are dead, they just haven't
gotten around to realising it yet.

Second: You really rot when your body stops healing itself properly. Look
at leprosy. When the disease kills the nerves, after some time (assuming
gangrene doesn't set it in), it can lead to the extremities rotting away.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 79
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 20:51:49 +1030
>Throw in a high force mana bolt to boot, which has no range modifier. I
>can see you, I can zap you. *zot* Beter hope that while you beefed up
>your firearms and physical stats, you paid attention to your willpower.

Bzzztt... Spell casting is subject to visual mods. Okay, so even if you
don't use range penalties, being a long way away should count as cover
for itself.

For my personal variation on this... you can't use LOS targetting for
aura-grounding spells unless you're close enough to actually identify the
person. This works out, from certain empirical experiments we did at the
beach, to be about half a kilometer. I interpreted this to use HMG
ranges, I think (not sure... we hardly ever get to use the rule, anyway).


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 80
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 20:18:41 +0200
At 6:57 Uhr 11.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>As I have mentioned before, I have "patrols" of ganger mages and shamans
>just waiting for a lock to drop a spell through in the astral (in certain
>areas anyway). I also use this in corp sites, but on a much nastier level
>(our players don't like corp penetrations). Doesn't matter what level you
>are when you get a powerbolt grounded through you to start off a fight
>against someone who you don't even know is there. You need to spend the
>action to go astral as well, while the attacker could have bolted by then or
>could be dropping more astral nastiness at leisure.
Some Magicians are clever enough to have a watcher around that hgas the order
to inform their master whenever a astral being comes near...
Some even have allies that do this...

>GM's... don't let your mages off the hook easy. They know there's a price
>to pay for doing little things wrong, sometimes they just need a reminder ;)
*throw boot at screaming cat* GMs, don't let people run around with anything
that attracts suspicion, be it Panther Assault Cannons, Vindicators,
Assault Rifles, Security Armor, or obvious (that is, not masked) spells...

And PLEASE, readers of this list, don't follow this STUPID Thread!
*sigh* *slap own fingers*
Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 81
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 15:39:51 -0500
>Some Magicians are clever enough to have a watcher around that hgas the order
>to inform their master whenever a astral being comes near...
>Some even have allies that do this...

How'd you get that ally past that ward? Or the watcher? How tough is that
watcher in astral combat? The ally? Unless you're talking seriously high
power levels, the answers are: it didn't, it didn't, it isn't, it isn't.
Either that or you've got sissified corps and easy GM's.

>>GM's... don't let your mages off the hook easy. They know there's a price
>>to pay for doing little things wrong, sometimes they just need a reminder ;)

>*throw boot at screaming cat* GMs, don't let people run around with anything
>that attracts suspicion, be it Panther Assault Cannons, Vindicators,
>Assault Rifles, Security Armor, or obvious (that is, not masked) spells...

Did I say that? Read my other post and get real...

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 82
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 23:15:52 +0200
At 22:39 Uhr 11.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>>Some Magicians are clever enough to have a watcher around that hgas the order
>>to inform their master whenever a astral being comes near...
>>Some even have allies that do this...
>
>How'd you get that ally past that ward? Or the watcher? How tough is that
>watcher in astral combat? The ally? Unless you're talking seriously high
>power levels, the answers are: it didn't, it didn't, it isn't, it isn't.
>Either that or you've got sissified corps and easy GM's.
>
>>>GM's... don't let your mages off the hook easy. They know there's a price
>>>to pay for doing little things wrong, sometimes they just need a reminder ;)
>
>>*throw boot at screaming cat* GMs, don't let people run around with anything
>>that attracts suspicion, be it Panther Assault Cannons, Vindicators,
>>Assault Rifles, Security Armor, or obvious (that is, not masked) spells...
>
>Did I say that? Read my other post and get real...
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
>* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
>--------------------------------------------------------
>* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
>* an empty room and the right kind of people *
>--------------------------------------------------------

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 83
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 23:15:31 +0200
At 22:39 Uhr 11.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>>Some Magicians are clever enough to have a watcher around that hgas the order
>>to inform their master whenever a astral being comes near...
>>Some even have allies that do this...
>How'd you get that ally past that ward? Or the watcher? How tough is that
>watcher in astral combat? The ally? Unless you're talking seriously high
>power levels, the answers are: it didn't, it didn't, it isn't, it isn't.
The REAL Answer is: Wards don't grow on trees, When I need a watcher, I summon
one, my ally enters wards physically, No watcher needs to be an astral warrior:
It sees something approach, and screams (well, normally I tell it NOT to
scream...just to inform me.
Magicians don't use everything as combat utility. Sometimes it is useful for
other purposes. OK?

>Either that or you've got sissified corps and easy GM's.
Don't think so. But we plan ahead, know where we go (And, I have to admit, I
don't have a quickened spell on me nor have I spell locks.)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 84
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 18:51:10 -0700 (PDT)
> Make a cyberzombie, with the cash that this mage has probably hauled in, you
> could do it easily. What's that? You want to actually try and cast a spell
> at me? *chuckle-snort* Have your advil handy ;)

((This mage has 'hauled in' very little cash... most of it went to helping
the rest of the team buy THEIR equipment...))

---Tom---
Message no. 85
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 04:02:23 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Lars M Ericson wrote:

> I wholeheartedly believe this thread has degenerated into:
> "My Character's Cooler!"
> "No! Mine is!"
>
> Mages, Street Sams, Deckers, Phys Ads. They all have their benefits
> and drawbacks. Sure a street sam might be able to react quicker and
> gun down a phys ad, but no if the phys ad is hiding in the shadows
> with his 12 Stealth and guns him down from surprise.
>
> Leet's kill this thread NOW! Look at the title and you'll see how far
> it has strayed from the original idea.
>

I still think my Otaku could take a fully chromed street sammie in hand
to hand. =)




|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 86
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 03:57:39 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >Oh, and Move-By-Wire Level 4 takes 6.35 essence, and 3 MILLION nuyen.
> >That means you need Cybermancy, which means you need a deltagrade
> >clinic...
> Excuse me, but what idiot would get a MBW4 at standard cost? If you're at a
> delta clinic, you get it as delta grade. Duh. In my game, thats as
> possible as being able to be a grade 10 initiate
>

Either a real idiot, who is having trouble just getting 3 million nuyen,
let alone three or four times that, or else someone who has very little
choice in the matter (ie: Aztechnology scraped you off the pavement, and
won't you look lovely with this new cyberware. =))

Okay, and in your campaign it's possible to have 30,000,000 nuyen on
hand, huh? If you can't _afford_ that much, you might be happy to get
just an alpha grade. Duh.

> >and an invoked memory stimulator... Which could be good,
> >because cyberzombies are a bit more immune to magic but could be bad
> >since cyberzombies have a lower damage overflow threshhold, and can
> >occasionally rot (ewww, stinky).
> Well, since he's not a cyberzombie, none of this applys. And you only rot
> if your dead. Cyberzombies are still alive.
>

Oh, I'm sorry... I guess I refered to the cancer that develops when you
are a cyberzombie. It tends to have about the same effect. And
cyberzombies are only alive by the loosest definition.


> >Either that, or you manage to lay your
> >grubby paws on close to 10 Mill and get Alpha grade... and if your fixer
> >can lay his grubby paws on an Alpha Clinic that has MBW 4, I'd be
> >impressed... Hell, if you could make 10 million nuyen, I'd be
> >impressed... =)
> If you can get enough karma to be a grade 10 initiate, as some people have
> mentioned, and then survived the actual initiation (unless of course, your
> just a munchkin who says "oh, I spend the karma and am now more powerful")
> then good for you, but it still doesn't change what I was talking about.

IOC, it's a hell of a lot easier to rake in karma than to horde up 10
million nuyen... Usually a lot of the high karma adventures end with
fairly expensive medical blls... one of our street sammies is learning
that the hard way as he hordes away for delta grade Wired Reflexes.


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 87
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 04:15:56 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Tom Pendergrast wrote:

>
>
> > ((I'm a great fan of mages (although I've never played one), but
> > remember to be able to mask those suckers or you're dog meat))
> >
> > ***Why!! Dog meat from who? If you are a party like ours, three mage
> > types, a sam, and a decker/rigger, I am not too worried about magical
> > stuff coming after us.
>
> ((Your group is relatively unbalanced... mages are approx 1% of the
> population and you have three??))
>
> ---Tom---
>

My group has two and a physad... I mean, heck... 1% of the word
population is like... 600 million? And besides which, shadowrunners tend
to make up a pretty small portion of the population, but my group
consists entirely of them. =)

I've always thought that 1 % of the population is bit silly considering
all the mages they list out in the sourcebooks. (though off hand, I
thought it was closer to 10%, but that might be just the number of people
who goblinized/UGE'ed). But that's just my opinion...



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 88
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 04:23:50 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, Tom Pendergrast wrote:

>
> > |You may be able to design a kick ass mage, but given the same resources, I
> > |can make a street sam that's going to make the mage a part of the
> > |Rorsheck(sp?) test.
> >
> > In an encounter where everything is equaled out (both have spent the same
> > amount of karma, both are prepared) I think it would be a lot closer than
> > you think. Try it out with one of the people you game with and get another
> > person to GM it.
>
> We already did that with my old group... the mage beat every cybered
> person in the party... in two different scenarios... and this was when
> the mage had never been played, and the cyber-guys had 30+ Karma...
>
>
> ---Tom---
>

Was this 30 karma points, or thrity in their karma pool? =)




|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 89
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 04:46:55 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> >But then, I've also seen high chrome street sammies get really screwed
> >over by mages they underestimated.
>
> Anyone who underestimates anyone'll end up dead. There's too many mages
> wearing that particular badge (often resembling a bullethole) to put the tag
> on samurai alone. Your GM must be nice to the magekins...
>

I co-GM... so about half the time I'm on the other side of the screen...
I'd say that our GM was nice to magekin, except that our mages don't do
much. Usually they just let the sammies take whatever hell happens to
come their way, then trot along to pick up the pieces afterwards... Most
of the viscious Mage/Sammie battles were with npc mages, and our cocky
street samurai almost got cacked off by a mage who was being totally
defensive.


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 90
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 04:42:19 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> >Throw in a high force mana bolt to boot, which has no range modifier. I
> >can see you, I can zap you. *zot* Beter hope that while you beefed up
> >your firearms and physical stats, you paid attention to your willpower.
>
> Mana Bolt does have a few other restrictions, though...
>
> 1) Vision range (equal to shotgun ranges in SRII)

Huh? Combat spells have LOS range. I can see it, I can zap it... they
proposed optional ranges in the Grimoire, but short range is still about
a klick.

> 1a) which may be increased by optical binocs

So a couple clicks if you got binocs.

> 2) Vision itself, you have to see the target
> 2a) Cover is always around somewhere
> 2b) Stealth + minor cover + vision mods = "what target?"

Minor cover? If you mean ducking behind a shrub, sure. If you mean
ducking behind a bar stool, I'd be less convinced.

> 3) Drain

Drain is usually not that big of a deal... just save your magic pool for
that.

> 4) What if the target DOES have a high willpower? Ouch.
>

You mean like a dragon with it's 8 willpower? (Or my burly Otaku with
_his_ 8?! GRRRRR!). I think SOP is to whimper, cry, and run like hell.


> All of these make for low probability of actually hurting the target. As I
> said before, GM's make it easy on their mages...turn up the heat a little ;)

See, mages only tend to whoop ass in our group when they are run by the
GM... our sammie players never remember to boost ye old willpower... I
ran an adventure a couple weeks ago where one of our players had just
made a new character... the group ended up taking on a dragon, and I did
a spit take when I found out this guy's willpower was only 1.

And the mana _dart_ in question was rating 10. It almost killed him.



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 91
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 22:44:23 +1030
>one, my ally enters wards physically, No watcher needs to be an astral
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bzzt... your ally is a spirit with the manifest power. When a spirit
manifests, it becomes a dual being. Dual beings (including perceiving
mages) CAN NOT PASS THROUGH WARDS OR BARRIERS (unless they knock a hole
through it, of course).


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 92
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 08:21:54 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 12 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >one, my ally enters wards physically, No watcher needs to be an astral
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Bzzt... your ally is a spirit with the manifest power. When a spirit
> manifests, it becomes a dual being. Dual beings (including perceiving
> mages) CAN NOT PASS THROUGH WARDS OR BARRIERS (unless they knock a hole
> through it, of course).
>
>

Does that apply to active foci as well? And just what happens when your
mage is riding on an elevator, and someone has a ward cast across the
entrance?



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 93
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 11:50:31 GMT
In message <Pine.BSI.3.91.960510111903.13014g-100000@*******.io.com> "Dr.
Bolthy von Schotz" writes:
> High force personal bullet barrier, high force elementals, and run like
> hell. Then I wait a couple months for your street sammie gets brain
> fried from his MBW, and his muscle aug goes into overstress, then kick
> back and laugh my scrawny ass off before capping you off with a
> streetline special at pointblank range to your forhead, which you might
> be able to do something about if you weren't having an epileptic fit. =)

Good stealth skill and a Ranger-X combat bow. Your first warning is an
arrow in the brain. Oh, bullet barrier? Call this a bullet? Adios muchachos...

And no MBW-4. Wired-II and a few other tweaks, is all. Nothing too fancy.

Nobody is invincible. The best defence against a Mana Bolt is a thermal-
smoke grenade. My weapons have ultrasound sights. What are you using?

This is the usual debate, usually centred on "if I set the starting conditions
then I kick ass".

Besides... I know mages are inherently more powerful. That's why I play
mercs and samurai, because kicking magical butt is much more satisfying
then.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude
towards him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem.
For better or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." R. A. Lafferty

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 94
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 10:24:17 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 12 May 1996, Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:

> In message <Pine.BSI.3.91.960510111903.13014g-100000@*******.io.com> "Dr.
Bolthy von Schotz" writes:
> > High force personal bullet barrier, high force elementals, and run like
> > hell. Then I wait a couple months for your street sammie gets brain
> > fried from his MBW, and his muscle aug goes into overstress, then kick
> > back and laugh my scrawny ass off before capping you off with a
> > streetline special at pointblank range to your forhead, which you might
> > be able to do something about if you weren't having an epileptic fit. =)
>
> Good stealth skill and a Ranger-X combat bow. Your first warning is an
> arrow in the brain. Oh, bullet barrier? Call this a bullet? Adios muchachos...
>
> And no MBW-4. Wired-II and a few other tweaks, is all. Nothing too fancy.
>

I was playing devil's advocate. The MBW and sniper rifle were not my
idea. =)


> Nobody is invincible. The best defence against a Mana Bolt is a thermal-
> smoke grenade. My weapons have ultrasound sights. What are you using?
>

Smartgun link. I'm not playing a mage. =)

> This is the usual debate, usually centred on "if I set the starting conditions
> then I kick ass".
>

I didn't set the starting condtions.

> Besides... I know mages are inherently more powerful. That's why I play
> mercs and samurai, because kicking magical butt is much more satisfying
> then.
>

Hehehehe.... why does that conjure the most gruesome image?



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 95
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:05:11 +0200
At 3:51 Uhr 12.05.96, Tom Pendergrast wrote:
>((This mage has 'hauled in' very little cash... most of it went to helping
>the rest of the team buy THEIR equipment...))

Ah, another one who knows what it means to be the one who always tries to
get all the stuff neccessary, then gives it to other people...
who usually loose it :-/
Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 96
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:15:32 -0700 (PDT)
> > We already did that with my old group... the mage beat every cybered
> > person in the party... in two different scenarios... and this was when
> > the mage had never been played, and the cyber-guys had 30+ Karma...
> >
> >
> > ---Tom---

> Was this 30 karma points, or thrity in their karma pool? =)

They had earned around 30 ponts of Karma... their pools were about four...


---Tom---
Message no. 97
From: Carsten Baermann <Carsten.Baermann@****.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 07:55:28 +0200 (CET)
> > >one, my ally enters wards physically, No watcher needs to be an astral
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Bzzt... your ally is a spirit with the manifest power. When a spirit
> > manifests, it becomes a dual being. Dual beings (including perceiving
> > mages) CAN NOT PASS THROUGH WARDS OR BARRIERS (unless they knock a hole
> > through it, of course).
>
> Does that apply to active foci as well? And just what happens when your
> mage is riding on an elevator, and someone has a ward cast across the
> entrance?

Awakenings throws a nice little rule in here: Foci make a success test
against the Rating of the ward (I am not sure about the details), if they
do not generate enough successes (spell locks probably will not with
only one dice) they will get destroyed.

########### Carsten Baermann - http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gcg4 ##########
# carsten.baermann@****.uni-giessen.de - case@**********.uni-giessen.de #
########## finger gcg4@**.hrz.uni-giessen.de for PGP Public Key #########

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Message no. 98
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 08:14:42 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, Carsten Baermann wrote:

>
>
> > > >one, my ally enters wards physically, No watcher needs to be an astral
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > Bzzt... your ally is a spirit with the manifest power. When a spirit
> > > manifests, it becomes a dual being. Dual beings (including perceiving
> > > mages) CAN NOT PASS THROUGH WARDS OR BARRIERS (unless they knock a hole
> > > through it, of course).
> >
> > Does that apply to active foci as well? And just what happens when your
> > mage is riding on an elevator, and someone has a ward cast across the
> > entrance?
>
> Awakenings throws a nice little rule in here: Foci make a success test
> against the Rating of the ward (I am not sure about the details), if they
> do not generate enough successes (spell locks probably will not with
> only one dice) they will get destroyed.
>

Forgot about that one... too bad... I think it would be cool to have a
mage get crushed against the elevator floor because his rating 2 power
focus boxer shorts won't go through the ward. =)



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 99
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 08:10:40 -0500
>Okay, and in your campaign it's possible to have 30,000,000 nuyen on
>hand, huh? If you can't _afford_ that much, you might be happy to get
>just an alpha grade. Duh.
You never pay for delta grade. If your getting it, you role played dealing
with the devil well enough that they're paying for your shiny new toys. And
in my world, if you want to get grade 10 initiation, you better deal with
the powers that be in the right way, so that they don't go "you're becoming
to powerful and know to much. You must prove your worthiness or die."

>Oh, I'm sorry... I guess I refered to the cancer that develops when you
>are a cyberzombie. It tends to have about the same effect. And
>cyberzombies are only alive by the loosest definition.
He's not a cyber zombie you twit! He doesn't need to go negative on the
essence scale. God you're slow.

>one of our street sammies is learning
>that the hard way as he hordes away for delta grade Wired Reflexes.

Better hope he can find someone who'll let him use their delta clinic.
Thats where the roleplaying really starts to come in. (well, it comes in
lots of other places, but not when you want to buy stuff)

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 100
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 07:25:49 -0500
>((Your group is relatively unbalanced... mages are approx 1% of the
>population and you have three??))
>
> ---Tom---
Oh, I guess he'll have to wait until he gets 99 other players, and then he
can have a magically active character. And while you're at it, most of the
population isn't a runner, so you better make a lot of wage slave
characters. Cause, you know, shadowrunners are such an even cross section
of society. Really.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 101
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:39:43 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >Okay, and in your campaign it's possible to have 30,000,000 nuyen on
> >hand, huh? If you can't _afford_ that much, you might be happy to get
> >just an alpha grade. Duh.
> You never pay for delta grade. If your getting it, you role played dealing
> with the devil well enough that they're paying for your shiny new toys. And
> in my world, if you want to get grade 10 initiation, you better deal with
> the powers that be in the right way, so that they don't go "you're becoming
> to powerful and know to much. You must prove your worthiness or die."
>
> >Oh, I'm sorry... I guess I refered to the cancer that develops when you
> >are a cyberzombie. It tends to have about the same effect. And
> >cyberzombies are only alive by the loosest definition.
> He's not a cyber zombie you twit! He doesn't need to go negative on the
> essence scale. God you're slow.
>

Good roleplay earns delta grade Level 4 MBW?!?! Thank you for that insight,
Monty Haul. "God you're slow"? Nice to see we have such enlightened
thinkers here with us.

> >one of our street sammies is learning
> >that the hard way as he hordes away for delta grade Wired Reflexes.
>
> Better hope he can find someone who'll let him use their delta clinic.
> Thats where the roleplaying really starts to come in. (well, it comes in
> lots of other places, but not when you want to buy stuff)
>

The way I look at it, you're going to get into a delta clinic two ways:

Have good connections, lots of owed favors, and front the money.

-OR-

Owe lots of favors, get fragged over, and end up selling your body to
Corp X so that they keep you alive, but in turn get to play mad
scientist with you.


Any campaign where the GM just says, "Hey, good roleplay, here's a couple
extra karma, and some delta grade cyberware." is where I pack up my
stuff and leave after becoming very ill.



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 102
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:15:54 GMT
sorry about this but nothing I have posted for the last few days has
been posted so the is a test

Love is the fine line between pleasure and pain

Except when you're into S&M when it's just pain! pain! pain!

Haloween Jack
Message no. 103
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:21:46 +0100 (BST)
|> He's not a cyber zombie you twit! He doesn't need to go negative on the
|> essence scale. God you're slow.
|>
|
|Good roleplay earns delta grade Level 4 MBW?!?! Thank you for that insight,
|Monty Haul. "God you're slow"? Nice to see we have such enlightened
|thinkers here with us.

You get used to Mikes bad temper after a while......
He does seem to lack certain..... Social Graces sometimes....
Don't you Mr Broadwater, you naughty so-and-so you....


--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |It has been widely reported in the newspapers, that |
|Andrew Halliwell | a so called "puppet" of the queen mother, would |
|Principal subjects in:-| appear on this weeks program. To the press, the |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts |public, and the many members of parlaiment who have |
|-----------------------|so kindly rung in to complain,we would like to admit|
| that this is an outragious and contemptable untruth perpatrated by us, to |
| bring the program into line with current government policy guidelines |
| Spitting Image have never made such a puppet, and were on holiday at the |
|time it wasn't made.... Thank you. (Spitting Image, when it was still funny)|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 104
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:34:41 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, A Halliwell wrote:

> |> He's not a cyber zombie you twit! He doesn't need to go negative on the
> |> essence scale. God you're slow.
> |>
> |
> |Good roleplay earns delta grade Level 4 MBW?!?! Thank you for that insight,
> |Monty Haul. "God you're slow"? Nice to see we have such enlightened
> |thinkers here with us.
>
> You get used to Mikes bad temper after a while......
> He does seem to lack certain..... Social Graces sometimes....
> Don't you Mr Broadwater, you naughty so-and-so you....
>
>

*ROTFL!* I had not seen that coming... Ultimately, I don't know why I'm
defending mages so strenuously... it's not like I ever play them... =P


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 105
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:30:20 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >Oh, I'm sorry... I guess I refered to the cancer that develops when you
> >are a cyberzombie. It tends to have about the same effect. And
> >cyberzombies are only alive by the loosest definition.
> He's not a cyber zombie you twit! He doesn't need to go negative on the
> essence scale. God you're slow.
>


Oh, and just as a little note to fight off "twit" status (?), I'd like to
point out that I _did_ say that there were options for getting MBW Level
4 besides Cyberzombie. I pointed out Alpha Clinics and Betaclinics.
MBW4 is such a small nudge over six essence that Alpha grade cyberware
would allow you to get it without the cybermancy. But that's still
almost 10 million nuyen.

Otherwise, start buying those car air freshners. =)


|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 106
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:54:21 -0600 (MDT)
A Halliwell wrote:
|
||> He's not a cyber zombie you twit! He doesn't need to go negative on the
||> essence scale. God you're slow.
||>
||
||Good roleplay earns delta grade Level 4 MBW?!?! Thank you for that insight,
||Monty Haul. "God you're slow"? Nice to see we have such enlightened
||thinkers here with us.
|
|You get used to Mikes bad temper after a while......
|He does seem to lack certain..... Social Graces sometimes....
|Don't you Mr Broadwater, you naughty so-and-so you....

Yeah...but just when you're all set to thwap him, he contributes a well
thought out post. Not that I enjoy it when he get abusive, but it's
balancing out so far (IMHO) :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 107
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 11:41:22 -0500
>You get used to Mikes bad temper after a while......
>He does seem to lack certain..... Social Graces sometimes....
>Don't you Mr Broadwater, you naughty so-and-so you....

"Lack certain social graces at times" hmmm. I think I've been insulted.
Yes, Mr. Halliwell, at times I do throw off an pretense of being a nice guy.
But I'd rather remain honest and make sure that my point gets across, than
try to sugar coat it and have some confusion.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 108
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 11:44:36 -0500
>The way I look at it, you're going to get into a delta clinic two ways:
>
>Have good connections, lots of owed favors, and front the money.
>
>-OR-
>
>Owe lots of favors, get fragged over, and end up selling your body to
>Corp X so that they keep you alive, but in turn get to play mad
>scientist with you.
>
Which is what I'm saying, having good connections, being owed favors,
playing being fragged over and under someones thumb, all that requires good
role playing. At least, in the games I'm in it does. Are you saying it
doesn't in yours?


Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 109
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:46:39 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >The way I look at it, you're going to get into a delta clinic two ways:
> >
> >Have good connections, lots of owed favors, and front the money.
> >
> >-OR-
> >
> >Owe lots of favors, get fragged over, and end up selling your body to
> >Corp X so that they keep you alive, but in turn get to play mad
> >scientist with you.
> >
> Which is what I'm saying, having good connections, being owed favors,
> playing being fragged over and under someones thumb, all that requires good
> role playing. At least, in the games I'm in it does. Are you saying it
> doesn't in yours?
>
>

Not saying that... just saying I don't think that your average corp will
sink a 30 million nuyen item into anyone at no cost just because they love
him so. If they were feeling really generous, they might give him half
off coupon or something... otherwise, the only way I can imagine them
doing it for free is if they earned a rather absurd amount of
penalties... our co-GM used the example of only having the character
check for neurological disorders right after a rather big battle, when
their karma pool is almost tapped. =P That and enough cortex bombs to
sink a battleship or two ought to even things out. =)



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 110
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:30:57 -0500
>Not saying that... just saying I don't think that your average corp will
>sink a 30 million nuyen item into anyone at no cost just because they love
>him so.
"Why, yes, we did give you that piece of cyberware. In exchange, we'd like
you to do us a favor. Oh, nothing yet. We'll get back to you. Oh, by the
by, we added a few optional extras. You may want to have your doctor look
at them. Don't look to close however, wouldn't want to set them off." It's
always good to have good, deniable assets right under your thumb :)

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 111
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:55:26 -0500
>>The way I look at it, you're going to get into a delta clinic two ways:
>>Have good connections, lots of owed favors, and front the money.
>>-OR-
>>Owe lots of favors, get fragged over, and end up selling your body to
>>Corp X so that they keep you alive, but in turn get to play mad
>>scientist with you.

>Which is what I'm saying, having good connections, being owed favors,
>playing being fragged over and under someones thumb, all that requires good
>role playing. At least, in the games I'm in it does. Are you saying it
>doesn't in yours?

Was about to post something along those lines, but Mike beat me to it. I
still can't believe I'm agreeing with the guy ;)

Roleplaying leads to good connections, favors, and sometimes even cash and
equipment (go figure). Of course, rolling dice and a sissified GM can do so
in a much more expedient manner, if that's your thing.

I still find this whole subject somewhere between revolting (because I can't
believe the things some people get away with) and hilarious (because I can't
believe some of the things people get away with). I think I've made my
points fairly clear and they are points often said by me and others...

1) Magic does not equal roleplaying.

2) Shadowrun is continually trying to balance itself and more or less has,
but people aren't comfortable with this balance and strive to limit certain
things (usually cyberware) without equivalent limits to everything else.

3) Roleplaying is up to the player, not the character. Even the most
heinous dice-monster can be roleplayed extremely well.

4) Under current Shadowrun rules, anyone can beat anyone depending upon the
circumstances. If one side is handicapped, then they'll be worse without
question.

5) A munchkin makes his character outside the rules. Never cry munchkin if
the character abides by the rules.

Now, about munchkinism...

Munchkin items are things like heavy pistols with supermachinegun rates of
fire and 1000 round clips with a 6 concealability, integral silencer,
smartlink II, vision mag III optical scope (thermographic, of course) that
uses sniper rifle ranges and assault cannon ammo. Also, there are munchkin
spells like Astral Perception or Not A Bullet.

Munchkinism is not solely found in items or spells. Often, GM's will go
"Monty Haul" and characters will become obscenely powerful. If players
don't object to it, then they're going along with it, and they become part
of the munchkin parade. Runs become "I kill the dragon" "How?"
"Does it
matter?" "Nope! But that was hilarious, you get 10 experience as well as
absorb the essence of the dragon, so you're now up to 20 essence, right?".

Munchkinism is not MBW4 or 10th grade initiates, unless such things were
handed to the character without effort ("I got 15 successes with my
negotiation skill, he gives me the MBW4 for free and makes it delta-grade"
or "I spend the karma, I'm 10th grade now!"). I know Mike didn't do the
former on his samurai, so I know he doesn't fail that test.

Anyways, there's a big chunk on munchkinism in the FAQ. Check it out.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 112
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:55:21 -0500
>> >one, my ally enters wards physically, No watcher needs to be an astral
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> Bzzt... your ally is a spirit with the manifest power. When a spirit
>> manifests, it becomes a dual being. Dual beings (including perceiving
>> mages) CAN NOT PASS THROUGH WARDS OR BARRIERS (unless they knock a hole
>> through it, of course).

>Does that apply to active foci as well?

Yes.

>And just what happens when your
>mage is riding on an elevator, and someone has a ward cast across the
>entrance?

If he's got active locks or quickenings or foci or elementals/spirits with
him, there's problems. Usually along the lines of busted locks, quickening,
foci, or grumpy elementals/spirits.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 113
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:55:18 -0500
>> Make a cyberzombie, with the cash that this mage has probably hauled in, you
>> could do it easily. What's that? You want to actually try and cast a spell
>> at me? *chuckle-snort* Have your advil handy ;)

>((This mage has 'hauled in' very little cash... most of it went to helping
>the rest of the team buy THEIR equipment...))

So he still made a lot of cash, he just spent it in a poor manner. That was
his choice. I'd call it a dumb one. No realistic shadowrunner would give
away his hard earned cash unless it was coming back to him with interest or
he was completely mad.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 114
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:40:54 +0200
At 23:55 Uhr 13.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>1) Magic does not equal roleplaying.
1b) nor does a x-page long background story

>2) Shadowrun is continually trying to balance itself and more or less has,
>but people aren't comfortable with this balance and strive to limit certain
>things (usually cyberware) without equivalent limits to everything else.
2b) While most people give Karma equally, the equipment is usually given
too easy (especially heavy weapons). [I DO know that this is not 'usually'
so, as isn't TopCat's]

>3) Roleplaying is up to the player, not the character. Even the most
>heinous dice-monster can be roleplayed extremely well.
3b) While "dice monsters" can be "roleplayed extremely well", they'd
come
through with bad roleplaying due to stats. Fow lower powered chars (in a
stronger campaign) roleplaying is a question of survival...

>4) Under current Shadowrun rules, anyone can beat anyone depending upon the
>circumstances. If one side is handicapped, then they'll be worse without
>question.
4b) A team can beat anyone with much less trouble, even larger groups of
individuals.

>5) A munchkin makes his character outside the rules. Never cry munchkin if
>the character abides by the rules.
Hm... he's right *strocke Cat*

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 115
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:46:46 +1030
>>Not saying that... just saying I don't think that your average corp will
>>sink a 30 million nuyen item into anyone at no cost just because they love
>>him so.
>"Why, yes, we did give you that piece of cyberware. In exchange, we'd like
>you to do us a favor. Oh, nothing yet. We'll get back to you. Oh, by the
>by, we added a few optional extras. You may want to have your doctor look
>at them. Don't look to close however, wouldn't want to set them off." It's
>always good to have good, deniable assets right under your thumb :)

Yeah, this is always nice... Deltaware might be a bit much to do, though.
It's still very much experimental, so if someone turns up with Ares-brand
deltaware, you can pretty much assume Ares sent them.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 116
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:58:01 GMT
In message <Pine.BSI.3.91.960513093454.1514L-100000@*******.io.com> "Dr. Bolthy
von Schotz" writes:
> Good roleplay earns delta grade Level 4 MBW?!?! Thank you for that insight,
> Monty Haul. "God you're slow"? Nice to see we have such enlightened
> thinkers here with us.

All depends on the campaign, really, doesn't it? If you have The Dreaded
Grade 10 Initiate clomping around, wiping out cities at the snap of a
finger, a heavily cybered character seems a lot less worrying.

After all... the possibilities are endless. Where do you get it
serviced or repaired? Treatment for all those nasty little problems
that MBW-4 imposes? Lots of things you can do to the character. The
magician's response when you try any of this? "Oh, my power focus blew
up? I'll just enchant another one..." "Oh, I got some disease? I cast
Cure Disease, duh..." "Oh, I got poisoned? I cast Antidote..."
"Oh, there's a guy with a gun? I cast a bullet barrier..."

Gets boring. That's why most of my magical characters retire young,
while the mercs and samurais stick around a *long* time: they have
to *think*, rather than just thumb through their spell list for
an answer.

> > Better hope he can find someone who'll let him use their delta clinic.
> > Thats where the roleplaying really starts to come in. (well, it comes in
> > lots of other places, but not when you want to buy stuff)
>
> Any campaign where the GM just says, "Hey, good roleplay, here's a couple
> extra karma, and some delta grade cyberware." is where I pack up my
> stuff and leave after becoming very ill.

Depends. It makes a fantastic plot hook.

--
.Sig file under repair, new machine

paul@********.demon.co.uk Paul J. Adam
Message no. 117
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 08:00:40 -0500
>>>Not saying that... just saying I don't think that your average corp will
>>>sink a 30 million nuyen item into anyone at no cost just because they love
>>>him so.
>>"Why, yes, we did give you that piece of cyberware. In exchange, we'd like
>>you to do us a favor. Oh, nothing yet. We'll get back to you. Oh, by the
>>by, we added a few optional extras. You may want to have your doctor look
>>at them. Don't look to close however, wouldn't want to set them off." It's
>>always good to have good, deniable assets right under your thumb :)
>
>Yeah, this is always nice... Deltaware might be a bit much to do, though.
>It's still very much experimental, so if someone turns up with Ares-brand
>deltaware, you can pretty much assume Ares sent them.

Well, that's only if Ares puts big marks on their high grade, secret agents
cyber that says "Ares! We kill the competition dead!"

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 118
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 00:13:03 +1030
>>Yeah, this is always nice... Deltaware might be a bit much to do, though.
>>It's still very much experimental, so if someone turns up with Ares-brand
>>deltaware, you can pretty much assume Ares sent them.
>
>Well, that's only if Ares puts big marks on their high grade, secret agents
>cyber that says "Ares! We kill the competition dead!"

Nope, not needed. If you're talking experimental stuff, the design itself
is the giveaway. If you want a covert, plausibly deniable operator, you
get some of the competition's gear as well.

--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 119
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:30:53 -0700 (PDT)
> All depends on the campaign, really, doesn't it? If you have The Dreaded
> Grade 10 Initiate clomping around, wiping out cities at the snap of a
> finger, a heavily cybered character seems a lot less worrying.

((Actually our G-10 mage was the more moderate character of the group...
sure, he's REALLY powerful, I mean, he was the most useful member of the
team in Harlequin's back... but he's alot less nasty than most of you
guys would expect... no massive death and destruction type things... and
there is still tons of stuff out there that he can't handle...))

> The
> magician's response when you try any of this? "Oh, my power focus blew
> up? I'll just enchant another one..." "Oh, I got some disease? I cast
> Cure Disease, duh..." "Oh, I got poisoned? I cast Antidote..."
> "Oh, there's a guy with a gun? I cast a bullet barrier..."

((Umm... no. Spells cost Karma. Said mage's spell list is good, but its
hardly exhaustive... he has only one of the spells listed above...))

> Gets boring. That's why most of my magical characters retire young,
> while the mercs and samurais stick around a *long* time: they have
> to *think*, rather than just thumb through their spell list for
> an answer.

((In my expereience, (little as it is) it has been the opposite... most
of our groups cyber chars retire earlier, and the magical types retire
last... although out current group is still going (yes, the one with THE
mage in it...) ))




---Tom---
Message no. 120
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 17:10:30 -0600
Mike Broadwater wrote:

>>Okay, and in your campaign it's possible to have 30,000,000 nuyen on
>>hand, huh? If you can't _afford_ that much, you might be happy to get
>>just an alpha grade. Duh.
>You never pay for delta grade. If your getting it, you role played dealing
>with the devil well enough that they're paying for your shiny new toys. And
>in my world, if you want to get grade 10 initiation, you better deal with
>the powers that be in the right way, so that they don't go "you're becoming
>to powerful and know to much. You must prove your worthiness or die."
>

Just who are these "powers that be?" Are you reffering to the immortals
(elves and otherwise) or some sort of astral beings. The only astral
beings I know about are the approaching Horrors, and they seem focused on
killing everyone. As far as the immortals, why should they worry about
little ol' me?

Piatro
Message no. 121
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 16:59:23 -0700
I know quite a few people who experienced the 'Nam party .... they're
still fighting mold & fungus infestations, as well as this little bug
called jungle rot. You most definitely can rot while still alive. Check
out the most frequent cause of death in a leper colony -- tissue decay or
rotting.
Message no. 122
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: RE: Metamagic
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 07:25:24 -0500
>As far as the immortals, why should they worry about
>little ol' me?
>
>Piatro
>
Because there comes a time where you are no longer "little ol' you" and they
notice that some mortal is gaining a little to much power a little to
quickly, and perhaps they should put you in your place.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.
Message no. 123
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 14:08:47 -0700
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

[snip: 3.48Mp]

\ I admit that the
\ new Initiation system does allow for some better control and development
of a
\ character, but at the same time, I think it places too much requirement on
\ the magician to have to develop their initiation if they want to get more of
\ what they want.
\
\ Personally, that is why we use (in some games, not all), the option of
\ developing Metatalents beyond what your Grade would allow for. Spend Karma
\ just like an Adept does for a new "power point". The grade doesn't have to
\ go higher. It allows for, purely IMO, for a magician to "research and
\ develop" their metamagical knowledge/theory without having to develop their
\ in depth ties to the Metaplanes themselves. Besides, the Grade itself is a
\ measure of the connectivity to the Metaplanes, while usage of the Metaplanar
\ forces isn't, again IMO, so cut and dry.

[snip: 1Mp]

\ I'll quit rambling now...

But you'd just captured my interest :)

Do you still keep Initiation (for purposes of effectively increasing Magic)
and still give the character a point to spend on metamagic abilities?

Do you have a flat cost for "power points", or do you have an increasing scale?

Does a character have to initiate before they can purchase points for
metamagic abilities?

Any other questions I forgot to ask?


-Graht
--
"One little smile can fill the room with sunshine."
Message no. 124
From: Lee Decker deckerl@******.com
Subject: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:11:16 -0500
SNIP << 5MP of ramblings>>
>
> But you'd just captured my interest :)
>
> Do you still keep Initiation (for purposes of effectively
> increasing Magic)
> and still give the character a point to spend on metamagic abilities?
>
> Do you have a flat cost for "power points", or do you have an
> increasing scale?
>
> Does a character have to initiate before they can purchase points for
> metamagic abilities?
>
> Any other questions I forgot to ask?
>
>
Nah, I think you covered them all and then some. (Well all of mine anyway)
I've known other GM's to do something similiar, but they never had any rules
of paper that
I knew of. See more material for the net magic sourcebook. Gurth..I know you
don't have
enough projects....:)
Message no. 125
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 14:24:29 -0700
Lee Decker wrote:
\ SNIP << 5MP of ramblings>>
\ >
\ > But you'd just captured my interest :)
\ >
\ > Do you still keep Initiation (for purposes of effectively
\ > increasing Magic)
\ > and still give the character a point to spend on metamagic abilities?
\ >
\ > Do you have a flat cost for "power points", or do you have an
\ > increasing scale?
\ >
\ > Does a character have to initiate before they can purchase points for
\ > metamagic abilities?
\ >
\ > Any other questions I forgot to ask?
\ >
\ >
\ Nah, I think you covered them all and then some. (Well all of mine anyway)

Or I could've just gone to the Hoosier Hacker House :-/

"The initiated can learn more metatalents than their grade in a manner
similar to that by which Adepts may purchase Power Points. For 20 points of
Karma, the initiated may learn an additional metatalent."

-Graht
--
"Living la vida dorka."
Message no. 126
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:04:28 EST
In a message dated 11/4/1999 4:09:40 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

> \ I'll quit rambling now...
> But you'd just captured my interest :)

Why is this always happens this way??!?? ;-P

> Do you still keep Initiation (for purposes of effectively increasing Magic)
> and still give the character a point to spend on metamagic abilities?

Yes, but what we allow for metamagical development, in the cases of the games
where we allow for such, to do other things. But, there is one more thing we
do with "initiation" that many groups do not.

> Do you have a flat cost for "power points", or do you have an increasing
> scale?

for "Metapoints" that are directly developed by the character, its' a flat
rate. But the target numbers to develop alternative Metatalents vary. We've
only got our house rule modification to MitS on HHH stating the target number
to learn the talent. But not to design a new one.

Designing news ones is something that is purely house rules, and changes as
we find other problems in what we believe is the current mechanic.

> Does a character have to initiate before they can purchase points for
> metamagic abilities?

Oh hell yes. Regardless, you still have to have the contact/conduit to the
metaplanes to use such energies. You can study "Metamagical Theory" as a
non-initiate (Academic Skill btw) in our games, and then this skill can be a
Complimentary Skill in the design and implementation of such.

> Any other questions I forgot to ask?

Don't know, are there?

Anyway, something that I *should* point out with regards to our own games is
that if you are going to Initiate, and you are going to use the Group and
Ordeals options to lower the mechanics/cost for advancement, then the Group
and/or Ordeal is going to have a significant impact upon the game itself.

For instance, we admit it, we use the Black Lodge as an *ACTIVE* selective
force in the game mechanics. Falling into those kinds of political power
plays and still retaining certain levels of anonymity can be painful (from a
variety of means) for the character in question.

Padre' for instance has broken several restrictions, and has in return had to
funnel out karma to make up for the infractions he's performed back to the
group. He's also a very manipulative character that people have a hard time
*NOT* following or paying attention to. It can be a trip to play him,
remembering that at all times though he may be a humanitarian, he has a
selfish streak that will ever-so-rarely rear its' head. When it does, the
group often finds themselves caught up in events that are WAY over their
heads.

Hence, he's no longer played here.

Additionally, we've used the concept of "Avatars" since the Grimoire; First
Edition here (within two months of it coming out actually). And on more than
one occasion, the Avatar has sent some kind of message to the character(s)
that have gained benefits from the group in question (reduced karma cost).
In return, the Avatar is "calling in" the tab for such in the form of
specific quests, jobs, runs, and even additional *problems*.

One final thing. In our games the concept of a "Centering" skill is not used
officially. We've got a "Metamagic Skill" that is used for all Metatalent
practices. Its' just like any other skill (such as Sorcery) the character
can develop, and it allows for "specialization" in a particular usage of an
event/talent (Centering for Drain Success, Invoking a Spirit of the Skies,
etc....). The karma cost for developing such uses a strange attribute.

It uses the magicians Grade of Initiation. As the grade advances, the karma
cost for the skill advancement is easier. But advancing the skill means
channeling karma into the advancement and away from other stuff.

It also allows for us to have a better level of control over the entire
mechanics of Metamagic than probably *most* games that exist out there. At
least, this is IMO. It also lets us have the fun of developing "new things"
on a more regular basis *without* having the initiate who is Grade 24 just to
try out every idea that comes along (I forget what grade a character would
have to be in our games to actually have *ALL* the metatalents known in our
game universe. Somewhere near 30 something at least. And that probably
doesn't count the consideration for multi-spirit crossover development
(hermetics learning to conjure loa; shamans learning to conjure spirits of
the elements; Voudon calling directly upon the elemental forces...hell, just
be able to call upon anything for that matter beyond a Loa).

Like I've said before, it's very complex. But it's also how I can look at
characters like "Barbie" and say "sure, we can have her in the games here,
she'd be just fun and probably enjoying having a challenge in a game other
than those she is (was? I've heard you put her into retirement Barbie)
normally encounterable in.

Again, I'm rambling.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 127
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Metamagic
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 21:07:42 EST
In a message dated 11/4/1999 4:25:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

> Or I could've just gone to the Hoosier Hacker House :-/
>
> "The initiated can learn more metatalents than their grade in a manner
> similar to that by which Adepts may purchase Power Points. For 20 points of
> Karma, the initiated may learn an additional metatalent."

LOL!!!! And here I just wrote out a far larger reply for ya with probably a
bit more information on stuff that I've got on HHH even.

-K (BTW: David, what did you think of the new(er) look?)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 128
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Metamagic
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 10:41:48 +0100
According to Lee Decker, at 16:11 on 4 Nov 99, the word on the street
was...

> Nah, I think you covered them all and then some. (Well all of mine
> anyway) I've known other GM's to do something similiar, but they never
> had any rules of paper that I knew of. See more material for the net
> magic sourcebook. Gurth..I know you don't have enough projects....:)

Only more than I can keep track of ATM (I think I should invest in a time
machine and then in an encephalon :)

<plug>But the NAGEE has a regular section titled The On-Line
Grimoire...</plug>

BTW, to those who wonder where issue 8 is (I said not too long ago that it
should be out about two weeks ago), I'm running into some unforeseen
problems with Adobe Acrobat Distiller which makes it refuse to produce a
PDF from a Postscript file :( So, until I get that fixed or figured out,
NAGEE 8 will have to wait...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

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