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Message no. 1
From: jeffrey morrow <jmorrow@****.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 02:38:19 -0500
Ok-

Enough lurking and wading through all the email this list provides....

I was wondering what the list thinks about the Grimoire II's Metamagic
rules as they pertain to Physical Adepts. Centering can logically be
applied to Physads, but most of the other abilites given upon zero
level initiation apply mostly to spell casting. What sort of benefits can
a physad receive from the zero level intiation? Is this covered
somewhere in one of the documents available from a world-wide web site?
I haven't had time to check these sites out. Is there one or two
specific ones I should wade through to find the information pertaining
to this question?

Jeff
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:52:36 +0100
>I was wondering what the list thinks about the Grimoire II's Metamagic
>rules as they pertain to Physical Adepts. Centering can logically be
>applied to Physads, but most of the other abilites given upon zero
>level initiation apply mostly to spell casting. What sort of benefits can
>a physad receive from the zero level intiation? Is this covered
>somewhere in one of the documents available from a world-wide web site?

Only Centering and Masking are useful to a physad (physads with Astral
Perception can try to break through the Masking ability of other initiates)
-- most of the other metamagical abilities are useless to physical adepts,
though. The only other advantage of initiation (above level 0) is that you
can buy new physad abilities.
Of course, I use the gradual initiation rules from NERPS: ShadowLore, which
doesn't have 0-level initiations, but starts at level 1 instead.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Every time you shake someone's hand It determines where you stand
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 3
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 13:11:56 +0100
> I was wondering what the list thinks about the Grimoire II's Metamagic
> rules as they pertain to Physical Adepts. Centering can logically be
> applied to Physads, but most of the other abilites given upon zero
> level initiation apply mostly to spell casting. What sort of benefits can
> a physad receive from the zero level intiation? Is this covered
> somewhere in one of the documents available from a world-wide web site?
> I haven't had time to check these sites out. Is there one or two
> specific ones I should wade through to find the information pertaining
> to this question?

We Jeff I dont agree, I think that Masking, Shielding and Enhanced Centering
are some pretty cool abilities and add a lot to PAs. Now I know that they
are no good at grade 0, but you cant have everything. And seriously to all
you guys out there complaining about PAs beeing too weak consider this -
what fighter type has the ability to protect himself from spells (using
kick ass shielding at that) and can combine spell enhanced reflexes with
inante abilities to reach 7d6+ in initiative......
Ok they might be a bit wimpy at first, but this is the price for being
practically unbeatbale later on.
--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 4
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 09:11:39 -0600
On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> We Jeff I dont agree, I think that Masking, Shielding and Enhanced Centering
> are some pretty cool abilities and add a lot to PAs. Now I know that they
> are no good at grade 0, but you cant have everything. And seriously to all
> you guys out there complaining about PAs beeing too weak consider this -
> what fighter type has the ability to protect himself from spells (using
> kick ass shielding at that) and can combine spell enhanced reflexes with
> inante abilities to reach 7d6+ in initiative......
> Ok they might be a bit wimpy at first, but this is the price for being
> practically unbeatbale later on.

A few things here. One, the officail rules (yes I am quoting the NAGM
again) say that PAs only get Masking and Centering. They also get an
astral pool equal to their grade, like other iniates, but only if they
have astral perception. As for the iniative, only the highest applies,
so 4d6 is the most. Considering the fact that PA are harder to detect
than other fighter types, I think that would be the main bonus.
Just for the record, many people do give Shielding to PA as their house
rules.

-Andrew
Message no. 5
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 08:29:37 -0700
> We Jeff I dont agree, I think that Masking, Shielding and Enhanced Centering
>are some pretty cool abilities and add a lot to PAs. Now I know that they
>are no good at grade 0, but you cant have everything. And seriously to all
>you guys out there complaining about PAs beeing too weak consider this -

>what fighter type has the ability to protect himself from spells (using
>kick ass shielding at that)


There are people who will argue that you can not use shielding with PA's becasue
they do not have a magic pool (from sorcery skill). PLEASE - don't start this
arguement again - it will go nowhere - AGAIN

>and can combine spell enhanced reflexes with
>inante abilities to reach 7d6+ in initiative......

NO YOU CAN'T!! - NO INITIATIVE INCREASES ARE CUMULATIVE
We have to remind people on this every so often.



Nightfox
Message no. 6
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 16:37:25 +0100
>
> There are people who will argue that you can not use shielding with PA's becasue
> they do not have a magic pool (from sorcery skill). PLEASE - don't start this
> arguement again - it will go nowhere - AGAIN
>

Well I didnt say they get a magic pool I said they use the extra initiation
dice :) But yes I know what you mean - I'll drop it. As for it beaing mentined
in NAGM, *sigh* oh well another illusion heartlessly destroyed :)

> >and can combine spell enhanced reflexes with
> >inante abilities to reach 7d6+ in initiative......
>
> NO YOU CAN'T!! - NO INITIATIVE INCREASES ARE CUMULATIVE
> We have to remind people on this every so often.

Well I believe that PA can combine magical inate abilities with
spells, but as Andrew said the NAGM expressly forbids that too, *sigh*
I still think that it makes sence though .......

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 7
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:32:01 -0500
>>>>> "Jani" == Jani Fikouras
<feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:

>> NO YOU CAN'T!! - NO INITIATIVE INCREASES ARE CUMULATIVE
>> We have to remind people on this every so often.

Jani> Well I believe that PA can combine magical inate abilities with
Jani> spells, but as Andrew said the NAGM expressly forbids that too,
Jani> *sigh* I still think that it makes sence though .......

This is nothing new. Since shortly after the dawn of Shadowrun, the FASA
guys have repeatedly stated that no form of initiative increase is
cumulative with any other form of initiative increase unless the
description specifically states that it does. You only get the best of
several if you have more than one.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | returned to its special container and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 8
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 17:39:36 +0100
> Jani> Well I believe that PA can combine magical inate abilities with
> Jani> spells, but as Andrew said the NAGM expressly forbids that too,
> Jani> *sigh* I still think that it makes sence though .......
>
> This is nothing new. Since shortly after the dawn of Shadowrun, the FASA
> guys have repeatedly stated that no form of initiative increase is
> cumulative with any other form of initiative increase unless the
> description specifically states that it does. You only get the best of
> several if you have more than one.

I know that, but I do not beleive in game-balance just for the sake
of game-balance. The official explanation is that cyber and magic dont mix
so you need a special spell to boost a cybered atribute and an increase cybered
reflexes is not feasible. Same goes for all other forms of technological
reflex enhancement. So its only logical to asume that magic is compatible to
magic and so a PAs magical abilities would have a cumulative influence
with any spells cast on him.
--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 9
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:48:45 -0600
On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> I know that, but I do not beleive in game-balance just for the sake
> of game-balance. The official explanation is that cyber and magic dont mix
> so you need a special spell to boost a cybered atribute and an increase cybered
> reflexes is not feasible. Same goes for all other forms of technological
> reflex enhancement. So its only logical to asume that magic is compatible to
> magic and so a PAs magical abilities would have a cumulative influence
> with any spells cast on him.


Actually, magic is not compatible with magic. If it was, then shamans
and mages would be able to teach each other very easily, casting reaction
spells on PA wouldn't have an added target number, magical active people
wouldn't go around saying people auras are wierd, etc.

-Andrew
Message no. 10
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 13:05:47 -0700
>Just for the record, many people do give Shielding to PA as their house
>rules.
>-Andrew

Like me :)

Remember - All I said is that people will argue that PA's don't get
Shielding. I have made it part of my rules that they do, besides the
the fact that I use initiation starting at 1, instead of zero.
and I also have considered lowering PA costs.

Of course - since I have no PA's in the game - I never have to worry
about this.

Nightfox
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 02:59:25 +0930
>
> Ok-
>
> Enough lurking and wading through all the email this list provides....
>
> I was wondering what the list thinks about the Grimoire II's Metamagic
> rules as they pertain to Physical Adepts. Centering can logically be
> applied to Physads, but most of the other abilites given upon zero
> level initiation apply mostly to spell casting. What sort of benefits can
> a physad receive from the zero level intiation?
>

Masking is available, if they've got the Astral Perception power.
Centering is more than logically applied to Physads, they can also apply it
to non-magical tasks (at penalties).

There's the big +1 to the Magic, which can be used (or saved) to buy
another Physad power.

Finally, some of the assorted third-party Physad powers are only available
to initiates.


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 12
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 14:18:10 EST
> > >and can combine spell enhanced reflexes with
> > >inante abilities to reach 7d6+ in initiative......
> >
> > NO YOU CAN'T!! - NO INITIATIVE INCREASES ARE CUMULATIVE
> > We have to remind people on this every so often.

And until NAGM is published there is no official ruling on Phys Ad reaction
boost with spell boost...

Luc
Message no. 13
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 14:34:44 EST
>
> On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> > I know that, but I do not beleive in game-balance just for the sake
> > of game-balance. The official explanation is that cyber and magic dont mix
> > so you need a special spell to boost a cybered atribute and an increase cybered
> > reflexes is not feasible. Same goes for all other forms of technological
> > reflex enhancement. So its only logical to asume that magic is compatible to
> > magic and so a PAs magical abilities would have a cumulative influence
> > with any spells cast on him.
>
>
> Actually, magic is not compatible with magic. If it was, then shamans
> and mages would be able to teach each other very easily, casting reaction
> spells on PA wouldn't have an added target number, magical active people
> wouldn't go around saying people auras are wierd, etc.
>
> -Andrew
>
In my opinion it's compatable, just harder (ie higher target number)


Luc
rjwate01@********.spd.louisville.edu
Message no. 14
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 15:11:50 -0600
On Sat, 18 Feb 1995, Luc wrote:

>
> And until NAGM is published there is no official ruling on Phys Ad reaction
> boost with spell boost...
>

Actually it isn't in the NAGM. It was stated, verbally, by one guy at
FASA and supported by Dowd, that only one reflex boost can apply. I
think it is a matter of the limits of the body.

-Andrew
Message no. 15
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metamagic for Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 16:47:34 EST
>
> On Sat, 18 Feb 1995, Luc wrote:
>
> >
> > And until NAGM is published there is no official ruling on Phys Ad reaction
> > boost with spell boost...
> >
>
> Actually it isn't in the NAGM. It was stated, verbally, by one guy at
> FASA and supported by Dowd, that only one reflex boost can apply. I
> think it is a matter of the limits of the body.
>
> -Andrew
>
I hope I don't sound rude or munchkinistic, but any rules not published by FASA
as not being 'official' because it is very easy to say you heard it from
someone who heard it from someone at _(insert game company name here)_. Of
course with any game all rules are optional even if 'official'.


Luc

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