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Message no. 1
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:43:47 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Spike <spike1@*******.co.uk>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, April 09, 2000 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: Metamagic: Stone Magic


>> I have seen this twice in fiction. One was the Sipstrassi (sp?) stones
>
>That sounds familiar... I can't place it. Could you elucidate a little on
>how these stones worked. Just to jog my memory?
>
You're really pushing my swiss cheese memory here. There were these golden
stones, I think they might have come from Atlantis. As you used them to cast
magic, tiny black veins would appear in the stones, and eventually the black
would cover the stone entirely, meaning that the stone was powerless. The
stories spread over millennia, and later on instead of magic they increased
psychic ability. There was a way of recharging the stones using blood, which
would make the effect weaker and colour the stone a deep crimson. There were
a few books set in Arthurian times, and I think some set in Atlantean times
where the Sipstrassi holders were worshipped as gods and had godlike powers.
The last book chronologically was called Waylander, a post-apocalyptic tale
where the poles shifted and the oceans all moved. It ended with the hero of
the story draining the energy from all the remaining stones, which were for
some reason kept in the Titanic, and at last freeing humanity from their
effect.
As for exactly what powers the stones conferred, I can't really remember,
but once they were used to heal someone, and some people were more or less
immortal as long as they had enough stones to keep them going.
Message no. 2
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:20:06 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Sidhe <tirnanog@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, April 09, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: Metamagic: Stone Magic


>hmm, wasn't this a series of books by David Gemmell??
>waylander is what strikes that chord...
>
>me
>
>
Thats the man. I think that Stonehenge may have been made of the stones,
they definitely got big, but most were pebble sized. Possibly by touching a
used up pebble against a big rock of the stuff, the pebble would be
recharged.
Message no. 3
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:10:59 -0400
Greetings -n- Salutations,

I was thinking of ways to bring other "flavors" of magic into Shadowrun.
One form of magic that I have always liked was Stone magic, so I thought I
would write down some of the ideas I had about using Stone Magic as a
metamagical technique.

Metamagic: Stone Magic

The idea is that a mage using this metamagic uses enchanting to prepare
gems and precious stones for use. Individual magicians can choose what
stones hold a link to which spells. (Among hermetics their would probably
be several charts showing these connections, which various schools argue
over from time to time) A mage may link only one spell to a type of stone.
If their are 2 versions of a spell (i.e. a single target version and an
area affect version, or a mana and physical version) they may both be
linked to the same type of stone.

Apart from having the Stone Magic metamagic and the Enchanting skill the
mage also needs the spells. The spells need to be learned specifically for
stone magic. (i.e. if the mage wants to link powerball to diamond he can
not use his standard powerball spell, he would have to learn a new version
of powerball with the Stone Magic limitation) These spells can only be used
in conjunction with stone magic.

Ok.. so there are several limitations, what are the benefits? A spell
channeled through a stone inflicts all of it's drain on the stone. The mage
takes no drain. However a stone can only take so much damage before it
becomes useless (and worthless). Once the stone dies it will either loose
all color and luster, go black or foggy, or crumble to dust. (Depends on
the mage's beliefs) I have come up with two possible ways to determine how
much energy a stone holds.

Method 1 : Every success on the enchanting roll would equal a "charge".
Once the charges are used the stone dies.

Method 2 : Each stone has, single tracked, condition monitor. It soaks the
drain from the spell, if the condition monitor is filled the stone dies.
(If the drain far exceeds the condition monitor it might be cool to have
the stone shatter or crumble) The stone would have a number of dice equal
to the successes on the roll to enchant/prepare it to use to resist drain.
Any damage the stone takes is permanent (probably showing up as cracks in
the stone). This is the method I like best.. but it could be a lot to
remember/keep track of if the mage has a number of stones.


I am submitting this as an unfinished idea. I am not sure weather or not it
would work, or be worth doing. I welcome comments, suggestions, or criticisms.

Thank you,
Aristotle, The Sleeping Op.
Message no. 4
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:52:49 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Aristotle <antithesis@**********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:21 AM
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic


>Greetings -n- Salutations,
>
>I was thinking of ways to bring other "flavors" of magic into Shadowrun.
>One form of magic that I have always liked was Stone magic, so I thought I
>would write down some of the ideas I had about using Stone Magic as a
>metamagical technique.
>
>Metamagic: Stone Magic
>
I have seen this twice in fiction. One was the Sipstrassi (sp?) stones from
a series that was pretty good but I can't remember the author. The other was
The Magic Goes Away, possibly be Larry Niven, but I have no real idea. In
that one an Australian Aboriginal was using opals to cast magic long after
the magic in the rest of the world had faded, much like the cycles of magic
in the Shadowrun timeline.
It would be interesting, but clear distinctions from fetishes would be
needed.
Message no. 5
From: Spike spike1@*******.co.uk
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 02:05:00 +0100 (BST)
> I have seen this twice in fiction. One was the Sipstrassi (sp?) stones

That sounds familiar... I can't place it. Could you elucidate a little on
how these stones worked. Just to jog my memory?

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Spike spike1@*******.co.uk
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 02:34:31 +0100 (BST)
> You're really pushing my swiss cheese memory here. There were these golden
> stones, I think they might have come from Atlantis. As you used them to cast
> magic, tiny black veins would appear in the stones, and eventually the black
> would cover the stone entirely, meaning that the stone was powerless. The
> stories spread over millennia, and later on instead of magic they increased
> psychic ability.

AAAARGH!!!! Memory returning.... Plot forming in head... Images I conjured
up reforming....


I think it was actually called the "Sipstrasi trilogy" wasn't it?

Trouble is I read so many fantasy books in the past, I can't for the life of
me remember who wrote that....

Wasn't there an enormous stone in there as well...? (Normal ones were palm
sized).
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co,uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Sidhe tirnanog@****.com
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:52:38 -0700
hmm, wasn't this a series of books by David Gemmell??
waylander is what strikes that chord...

me
Message no. 8
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:49:42 +1000
>hmm, wasn't this a series of books by David Gemmell??
>waylander is what strikes that chord...

The Sipstrassi Saga is indeed by David Gemmell. The books I know of in the
series are:

Ghost King
Last Sword of Power
Wolf in Shadow
The Last Guardian
- also released in one four-book volume called "Stones of Power".

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 9
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:53:45 +0300
Aristotle wrote:
>
> I was thinking of ways to bring other "flavors" of magic into Shadowrun.
> One form of magic that I have always liked was Stone magic, so I thought I
> would write down some of the ideas I had about using Stone Magic as a
> metamagical technique.

I am really happy that people like you try to enhance the game by
introducing interesing concepts in the magic system. Concepts all the
more based on existing occult theories, and therefore bearing more
archetypal power.
I am not very familiar with the 'magic of the stones' but I think we
can summarize the essence of stone magic in basically two things:
1) Being dense and stable, rocks can hold bigger amounts of 'mana' than
other material. It is the most dense material made by nature. It is a
good mana battery.
2) As big mana batteries, big rock concentrations can be mana
orientation and chanelling conductors. Therefore leylines and power
sites are usually made by appropriately sculpted and positioned rocks or
aka standing stones.

The game effect you are proposing would seem too 'game heavy' for my
taste. Imagine tossing three force 6 powerballs in a stacked effect and
suffering no drain at all just because the stones got the drain.
I would go for extra dice though. Some kind of expendable spell focus.
Of course I would suggest an added benefit because of the
specialisation.
Say: 10 days of uninterupted enchanting, number of stones equal to
intelligence, effective force of stone foci equal to grade of enchanter,
TN for enchanting = 12 - grade, talismongering used as a background
skill only on a naturaly learned skill basis (no knowsoft for this one)
and all stones enchanted must be for the same spell. The dice can be
used either as drain, spellcasting, spell defense (including shielding
and reflecting) for the spell concerned. Each stone counts as half its
force (round down) for the maximum foci points (see: focus addiction)
and every grade/number of stones counts as another active focus (max
number of foci=intelligence). Also it would help the mage focus on
manalines. A successful perception (12-grade) would help the mage
concentrate on a manaline within grade/miles and use half his grade (r
down) in power site dice (or power site rating, wich ever is smaller)
inhis magic tests. It would require at least one minute of uninterupted
'attuning'.

If anyone is interested in game systems that incorporate stones:
- see 'Volo's Guide to all things Magical' by TSR for the AD&D line in
FR.
- also the small but juicy reference of dwarven stone animism in
I.C.E.'s 'Hands of the Healer' for the M.E.R.P. line in 1650 T.A.

If anyone is interested in the occult point of view for game research or
other wise, remember to also check other powerline materials like earth,
water and great trees or mountain ranges.

The Wiz
Message no. 10
From: Jinx jinxed@***********.com
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:17:36 -0500
At 01:53 PM 4/9/00, you wrote:

> The game effect you are proposing would seem too 'game heavy' for my
>taste. Imagine tossing three force 6 powerballs in a stacked effect and
>suffering no drain at all just because the stones got the drain.

I'd argue that you take the drain - when you create the stones, though, not
when you activate them. It's just a different timing. Also, it would take
quite a lot of preparation time to create them, and you'd have to know in
advance what you'll need, or you'd be mostly useless, not knowing the
spells in the "normal" way unless you pay extra for them. If the stones get
stolen, used up, broken, or deactivated, you're also in a lot of trouble.
The rules would need to be worked out, but I can see this idea balanced
with the rest of the game, especially if there is an expenditure of karma
to create them/bind them - the mage won't pass out in the middle of combat,
but may not have as many spells ready as your average mage-type.

>The Wiz

Jinx
Message no. 11
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:24:56 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Manolis Skoulikas <greatworm@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, April 10, 2000 4:53 AM
Subject: Re: Metamagic: Stone Magic


>Aristotle wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking of ways to bring other "flavors" of magic into
Shadowrun.
>> One form of magic that I have always liked was Stone magic, so I thought
I
>> would write down some of the ideas I had about using Stone Magic as a
>> metamagical technique.
>
>I am really happy that people like you try to enhance the game by
>introducing interesing concepts in the magic system. Concepts all the
>more based on existing occult theories, and therefore bearing more
>archetypal power.
> I am not very familiar with the 'magic of the stones' but I think we
>can summarize the essence of stone magic in basically two things:
> 1) Being dense and stable, rocks can hold bigger amounts of 'mana' than
>other material. It is the most dense material made by nature. It is a
>good mana battery.
> 2) As big mana batteries, big rock concentrations can be mana
>orientation and chanelling conductors. Therefore leylines and power
>sites are usually made by appropriately sculpted and positioned rocks or
>aka standing stones.
>
> The game effect you are proposing would seem too 'game heavy' for my
>taste. Imagine tossing three force 6 powerballs in a stacked effect and
>suffering no drain at all just because the stones got the drain.

This could be offset by saying that the spellcaster is completely unable to
cast any magic unless he had a magic stone, and the stone had a very limited
supply of mana, say for the point of arguement a fist sized chunk of quartz
holds ten mana points, 1 mana = 1 force point. Any old spell could be cast
through the stone, but each reduces the charge. There won't be damage to
worry about, but if the mage has to carry around all these heavy rocks, has
to actually get the rock from its bag into his hand before he can cast, and
could possibly lose all his rocks, reducing him to a weedy mundane for all
intents, then maybe it would balance. Then of course you have the costs
involved, since only the purest stone will do, and maybe karma has to be
spent to prepare the rock, say 1 karma = 10 mana. A huge ring of charged
standing stones could potentially give limitless power, but charging them
would cost heaps of karma (blood magic would fit in here) and probably a
massive skill score would be necessary to handle that kind of energy.
I'm really beginning to like this concept.




>
>If anyone is interested in the occult point of view for game research or
>other wise, remember to also check other powerline materials like earth,
>water and great trees or mountain ranges.
>
>The Wiz


Yes, that is fitting too, but only for ritual circles, it would be hard for
a street mage to carry a mountain around with him :)
But yeah, maybe you could harness the leys (Rifts has this doesn't it?), or
the power of the Grandfather Oak, and rivers have always been thought of as
sources of magical power, especially where a bridge is (complete with
troll). Look to the Maya to see mountain worship, they bandaged their heads
to make them grow into the shape of their sacred mountain.
Message no. 12
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:50:57 EDT
In a message dated 4/7/00 12:20:37 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
antithesis@**********.com writes:

>
> Method 2 : Each stone has, single tracked, condition monitor. It soaks the
> drain from the spell, if the condition monitor is filled the stone dies.
> (If the drain far exceeds the condition monitor it might be cool to have
> the stone shatter or crumble) The stone would have a number of dice equal
> to the successes on the roll to enchant/prepare it to use to resist drain.
> Any damage the stone takes is permanent (probably showing up as cracks in
> the stone). This is the method I like best.. but it could be a lot to
> remember/keep track of if the mage has a number of stones.
>
>
> I am submitting this as an unfinished idea. I am not sure weather or not it
> would work, or be worth doing. I welcome comments, suggestions, or
> criticisms.

I snipped the rest of this, now that I finally have time to actually read it.
It seems nice actually, and I am impressed for the most part. The only
question I have I think is how would this compare to the already existing
forms of "items". With almost no exception, this is a "mundane may
use" type
of magic. Is there a bonding cost for the "stone", if not, is there a
"bonded individual" requirement?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 13
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:32:32 -0400
>antithesis@**********.com said:
>> Method 2 : Each stone has, single tracked, condition monitor. It soaks the
>> drain from the spell, if the condition monitor is filled the stone dies.
>> (If the drain far exceeds the condition monitor it might be cool to have
>> the stone shatter or crumble) The stone would have a number of dice equal
>> to the successes on the roll to enchant/prepare it to use to resist drain.
>> Any damage the stone takes is permanent (probably showing up as cracks in
>> the stone). This is the method I like best.. but it could be a lot to
>> remember/keep track of if the mage has a number of stones.
<Snip>

HHackerH@***.com said:
>I snipped the rest of this, now that I finally have time to actually read it.
> It seems nice actually, and I am impressed for the most part. The only
>question I have I think is how would this compare to the already existing
>forms of "items". With almost no exception, this is a "mundane may
use" type
>of magic. Is there a bonding cost for the "stone", if not, is there a
>"bonded individual" requirement?

Since the magic isn't stored directly in the stone it could only be used by
a mage. Furthermore the mage must have a spell linked to that kind of
stone. (i.e. since learning the stone magic techniques I have the Powerball
[Diamond] spell. It works identically to "powerball" but will only work in
conjunction when I use stone magic and a prepared diamond. I might also
have the "Powerball" spell and that spell is still cast without the use of
stone magic.)

As someone else pointed out this whole technique is a little rules heavy,
but then again many aspects of Shadowrun are. The only benefit it truly has
is that it allows the mage to cast spells (as long as he has spent the time
and cash) without worry of drain. I feel it is important to note however
that "getting away with magic without drain" was not my intention. The
spirit of this idea was just to offer another flavor of magic to the game,
and to try and make it work in a similar fashion to it's counterparts in
fiction.

Thanks!
Aristotle, The Sleeping Op.
Message no. 14
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Metamagic: Stone Magic
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:51:48 EDT
In a message dated 4/10/00 9:42:43 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
antithesis@**********.com writes:

> Since the magic isn't stored directly in the stone it could only be used by
> a mage. Furthermore the mage must have a spell linked to that kind of
> stone. (i.e. since learning the stone magic techniques I have the Powerball
> [Diamond] spell. It works identically to "powerball" but will only work in
> conjunction when I use stone magic and a prepared diamond. I might also
> have the "Powerball" spell and that spell is still cast without the use of
> stone magic.)

Which, as per the mechanics of the game now, this is simply a kind of "Geasa"
placed upon the user's own variation of magic.

> As someone else pointed out this whole technique is a little rules heavy,
> but then again many aspects of Shadowrun are. The only benefit it truly has
> is that it allows the mage to cast spells (as long as he has spent the time
> and cash) without worry of drain. I feel it is important to note however
> that "getting away with magic without drain" was not my intention. The
> spirit of this idea was just to offer another flavor of magic to the game,
> and to try and make it work in a similar fashion to it's counterparts in
> fiction.

The flipside to this is that, to me at least, this seems to qualify more
towards the current (MitS) rules for Anchorings and immediately follows those
mechanics. As a "flavor" idea, it is most excellent and we've used similar
things here for ages in fact. The whole thing that I, and probably many
others, would have as a problem is the "magic without drain" part of the
argument.

IMO at least, there should always be some kind of fatigue or duress placed
upon the magician and the magic they perform. Please note, that in our
games, many of the Enchanting actions also have drain/fatigue involved with
them ... especially the Metamagics we've got centered around such.

I do really like the idea though, and would make for an excellent direction
to possibly work some aspects of magic into.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]

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