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Message no. 1
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:36:01 -0500
Haven't seen this turn up in here yet, so thought I'd throw it out so that
you guys who aren't regular freelancers could provide some input. Mike
asked the freelancers to disseminate this one, so here goes:

From: Mike Mulvihill, Shadowrun Line Developer [shadowrun@****.com]

Hi everyone,

Next summer will be the first of new update/upgrade gear books for
Shadowrun 3. Many of you have heard me talk of it. It is called State Of The
Art.
The concept behind State of the Art is...
The book will include an update of existing gear.
It will include new gear
It will include all aspects of gear in one book (magical, armor,
weaponry, matrix, rigging, standard gear...)

While that is all well and good, we have two directions that fans have
actually spoke to me about. Here they are in no specific order:

A: State of the Art: 2062
Like the rules expansions we just put out (Man & Machine, Matrix, Rigger
3) this book would feature gear and small rules-voice write-ups. No fiction.
Four or five sections of gear broken down by it's generic classification.

B: State of the Art: XXXXX
This book would feature both a source material section (black
information, POV writing, etc.) and the rules/gear section, in a 50/50 mix .
The closest product to this would be Awakenings.

The fiction book can be broken down into two subsets...
State Of the Art: Fiction Theme or
State of The Art: Rules Theme

While seeming the same they are actually very different.

The Fiction Theme book would be, for example State Of The Art: Security or
State of the Art: Mercenary or State of the Art: Special Ops. The fiction
would cover the basics of the theme and all the gear would lean (but not be
totally be exclusive) towards the theme.

The Rules Theme would be like the State of the Art: 2062 - but with a
fiction section in the front. There is no overall pattern to the book and
information could jump from place to place with no specific continuity.

Since each book has it's pros and cons, and at the present time, we see the
benefits and the problems with all types, we feel that input from those that
would buy the book would make sense.

It is important to note that we already plan on doing more than one SOTA
book...these will be the rule books of the future for Shadowrun. Each one
will most likely share the common elements outlined above but can switch
between the various presentation formats.

Let us know what you think...but wait there's more!

Here is a list of some of the topics and rules that we know need to be
included in SOTA books at one time or another. Let me know what interests
you the most...

Rules to still do/update to SR3.
Genetech (never updated from SR2)
Host Construction (taking the Matrix rules one step further)
Lots of Metamagic that we cut from MITS
Lots of stuff that we compiled and cut from the other rules expansions

Themes mentioned repeatedly from people.
Corp Security (a way to update Corp Security and part of Lone Star)
Mercenaries (a way to update the information presented in Fields of Fire)
Special Ops (from Corp spies like Cross' Seraphim etc.)
Government Agents (Men in Black, Delta Green, Tir Paladins and Sioux Wild
Cats)

Please respond to this document by Friday November 10th to
Shadowrun@****.com

For the record: we will not be doing gear specific black information mixed
in with the rules. That is a terrible idea and it will not be done. Rules
need to be clear and concise and the way we have done it so far has been a
boon to Shadowrun and made Shadowrun a playable game. So there. :-)

Thanks for the help -


Have Fun!
Play Games!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com
Message no. 2
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:08:18 -0400
> From: Patrick Goodman [mailto:pgoodman13@************.com]
> Sent: October 25, 2000 08:36

> From: Mike Mulvihill, Shadowrun Line Developer [shadowrun@****.com]
>
> Next summer will be the first of new update/upgrade gear books for
> Shadowrun 3. Many of you have heard me talk of it. It is
> called State Of The Art.

> The Fiction Theme book would be, for example State Of The
> Art: Security or
> State of the Art: Mercenary or State of the Art: Special Ops.
> The fiction
> would cover the basics of the theme and all the gear would
> lean (but not be
> totally be exclusive) towards the theme.
>
> The Rules Theme would be like the State of the Art: 2062 - but with a
> fiction section in the front. There is no overall pattern to
> the book and
> information could jump from place to place with no specific
> continuity.

I could live without the fiction (which, while I might enjoy it, I'll
only read once), but I like Themed books. For one, it means fewer
books to lug around (mages generally don't need R2).

FoF is one of my favourite supplements - not because it had spiffy
tech, or because it had neat rules, but because it fleshed out the
world by describing (through the gear and rules provided) what mercs
in SR are like. The best thing about SR is the world itself.

Take a Covert Ops theme - that covers a heck of a lot of territory.
How do spies in SR exist? Are they Bond-type spies (never *really*
going undercover, at least not for more than an hour or two), or do
they do lots of deep-cover work? Why bother with industrial espionage
when the world has Riggers? Gear and rules help greatly to not only
flesh out the world, but give people ideas.

Perhaps it could be presented as a targetted megacorp catalogue? That
is, SOTA: Mercs is the catalogue of stuff they try to push on mercs;
that wouldn't mean that the gear within would be useless in other
areas, of course, just that that's the focus, the primary market.

James Ojaste
(no, I'm not dead, I just feel like it)
Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:02:48 +0200
According to Ojaste,James [NCR], on Wed, 25 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> > The Rules Theme would be like the State of the Art: 2062 - but with a
> > fiction section in the front. There is no overall pattern to
> > the book and
> > information could jump from place to place with no specific
> > continuity.
>
> I could live without the fiction (which, while I might enjoy it, I'll
> only read once), but I like Themed books. For one, it means fewer
> books to lug around (mages generally don't need R2).

"A fiction section" means an in-character part of the book, which is
then followed by an out-of-character part -- like in the NAGRL, Awakenings,
Fields of Fire, etc. The first half or more of each of those books was
written from the POV of someone in the game world, while the second section
had game rules to back up the things introduced in the first part.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Shhh....I know it's only in my head.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:56:41 -0400
> From: Gurth [mailto:gurth@******.nl]
> Sent: October 25, 2000 14:03
>
[snip]
> > I could live without the fiction (which, while I might
> enjoy it, I'll
> > only read once), but I like Themed books. For one, it means fewer
> > books to lug around (mages generally don't need R2).
>
> "A fiction section" means an in-character part of the book, which is
> then followed by an out-of-character part -- like in the
> NAGRL, Awakenings,
> Fields of Fire, etc. The first half or more of each of those books was
> written from the POV of someone in the game world, while the
> second section
> had game rules to back up the things introduced in the first part.

Hm. Differing terminology I guess. I wouldn't call that fiction,
I'd call it a description of the world as narrated by a fictional
character. The description itself is no more fictional than the
rest of the game (ie "anybody" could have made those observations)...

James Ojaste
Message no. 5
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:27:45 -0400
On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:56:41 -0400 "Ojaste,James [NCR]"
<James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> writes:
> Hm. Differing terminology I guess. I wouldn't call that fiction,
> I'd call it a description of the world as narrated by a fictional
> character. The description itself is no more fictional than the
> rest of the game (ie "anybody" could have made those
> observations)...
>
> James Ojaste
>
>

So, In Character vs. Out of Character would be more accurate.
I prefer the half and half, but I'd rather have a mixed book (SOTA: 2061)
since that way I don't have to wait until "SOTA: Magic" for magic stuff,
since this year is "SOTA: CorpSec" or some such.
I liked CorpSec and FoF, but I feel teh books would have more use to be
more varied (though, not as chaotic as Neo A's Real Life)
To update the corporate security wouldn't require a complete book, since
a lot of the stuff is already in another place in SR3, but a good IC
breakdown would be nice. I'd also love to see some new magic, and new
edges/flaws too, which don't need IC descriptions at all.

Also, to make sure it's clear, there is NO shadowtalk. The IC parts will
be more in teh way of explaining the new rules or new ways of doing stuff
AFAIK. You're not getting a catalog with shadowtalk comments underneath
or such.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 6
From: Mark Imbriaco mark.imbriaco@*****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:40:20 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 vocenoctum@****.com wrote:

> Also, to make sure it's clear, there is NO shadowtalk. The IC parts will
> be more in teh way of explaining the new rules or new ways of doing stuff
> AFAIK. You're not getting a catalog with shadowtalk comments underneath
> or such.

The in-character (non-rules) stuff will more than likely have
shadowcomments. As long as it doesn't confuse the rules, then IMHO
shadowcomments are a good thing for the flavor that they add.

-Mark

--
"The big question is whether the planet will disappear in the twinkling of
an eye. It is astonishingly unlikely that there is any risk - but I could
not prove it." - John Nelson
Message no. 7
From: .stefan stefan@*****.org
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:28:33 +0100
At 17:27 2000-10-25 -0400, Vocenoctum wrote:
>Also, to make sure it's clear, there is NO shadowtalk. The IC parts will
>be more in teh way of explaining the new rules or new ways of doing stuff
>AFAIK. You're not getting a catalog with shadowtalk comments underneath
>or such.

No Shadowtalk ?! Bummer ... I always thought that it brought alittle life
to the books, that is why i'm not a really big fan of the new rules and
supps books cause there ain't no Shadowtalk just facts facts facts ....

The books need shadowtalk to liven the things up alittle even if it is only
a few spare comments from different people.

well that is my opinion anyway.

.stefan
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:18:22 -0500
From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:27 PM

> Also, to make sure it's clear, there is NO shadowtalk.

Eh? Where'd you get that? No shadowtalk in rules, yes, but in the fiction?
If I have anything to say about it, there's going to be shadowtalk galore.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that "no shadowtalk in rules" means "no
shadowtalk."

Patrick
Message no. 9
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:29:27 -0400
On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:18:22 -0500 "Patrick Goodman"
<pgoodman13@************.com> writes:
> From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:27 PM
>
> > Also, to make sure it's clear, there is NO shadowtalk.
>
> Eh? Where'd you get that? No shadowtalk in rules, yes, but in the
> fiction?
> If I have anything to say about it, there's going to be shadowtalk
> galore.
> Don't make the mistake of thinking that "no shadowtalk in rules"
> means "no
> shadowtalk."

Eh, I phrased it poorly. The IC stuff will contain shadowcommentary, or
perhaps be totally shadowrunner provided (ala Corp DL)
The old style of shadowtalk is what I meant by "shadowtalk". The
commentary on each of the items, etc.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 10
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:35:39 -0600
At 19:29 25/10/2000 -0400, vocenoctum@****.com wrote:

> Eh, I phrased it poorly. The IC stuff will contain shadowcommentary, or
>perhaps be totally shadowrunner provided (ala Corp DL)
>The old style of shadowtalk is what I meant by "shadowtalk". The
>commentary on each of the items, etc.

IOW, it won't be a "We have 40,000 words and 80,000 words worth of pages to
fill, let's add repetitive formatting and lots of line spacing" book ;-)

(Hello Fields of Fire!)

Adam
< http://staff.dumpshock.com/adamj / adamj@*********.com / UIN 2350330 >
Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
<snipt!(TM)>
> I prefer the half and half, but I'd rather have a
mixed book (SOTA: 2061) since that way I don't have to
wait until "SOTA: Magic" for magic stuff, since this
year is "SOTA: CorpSec" or some such. I liked CorpSec
and FoF, but I feel teh books would have more use to
be more varied (though, not as chaotic as Neo A's Real
Life)
<snipt!(TM)>
> Vocenoctum

Hey, guys, read the note carefully.

If I'm not mistaken, Mike's saying that the format of
the SOTA books doesn't have to be set in stone. If we
decide we'd like a mix of Rules Theme and Fiction
Theme SOTA books, they could do that. That's what I've
suggested, for exactly the same reasons as what
Vocenoctum has said above. The Rules Theme books means
we wouldn't have to wait years to get the latest magic
or decking or gun updates, but the Fiction Theme books
would probably cover stuff that might never be covered
in SR books otherwise.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Wagemage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:12:25 -0400
>At 17:27 2000-10-25 -0400, Vocenoctum wrote:
>>Also, to make sure it's clear, there is NO shadowtalk. The IC parts will
>>be more in teh way of explaining the new rules or new ways of doing stuff
>>AFAIK. You're not getting a catalog with shadowtalk comments underneath
>>or such.
>
>No Shadowtalk ?! Bummer ... I always thought that it brought alittle life
>to the books, that is why i'm not a really big fan of the new rules and
>supps books cause there ain't no Shadowtalk just facts facts facts ....
>
>The books need shadowtalk to liven the things up alittle even if it is only
>a few spare comments from different people.

I agree. Shadowtalk was my favorite part of the old sourcebooks and part
of what locked me in as a long time SR player. Now, as a GM, I would love to
see some more shadowtalk in the gear sections. I mean in the old Samurai
catalog there were several guns which had very few differences, but the
shadowtalk made points about reliability and undocumented problems. I
suppose this was confusing to some people, but to me it gave the equipment
more life. I don't need rules to assign I higher chance of jamming to a
particular weapon, but hearing about how it broke down on Hatchetman (RIP)
in the middle of a run gave the indication that it wasn't top notch without
forcing it into the rules and ensuring that no one would ever buy it. Maybe
he got a bad run, maybe it was the ammo or maybe the gun is crap, but *I*
want to decide that as GM.
The shadowtalk gave me that option, and I liked it.
Message no. 13
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:19:03 -0700
Hmm... as a thought... sure its great that everybody is talking about
this... interesting to see what other people think about the shadow talk,
the fiction and layouts of the books...

But as I think... wasn't the original point of the posting that Fasa was
looking to solicit opinions on future sourcebooks (or an entire line on
sourcebooks)?

Each of us telling the other what we think about the books and format isn't
going to accomplish anything if nobody emails fasa their thoughts/opinions.

Just a thought...

Augustus
Message no. 14
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:35:37 -0600
At 21:19 25/10/2000 -0700, Augustus wrote:

>Each of us telling the other what we think about the books and format isn't
>going to accomplish anything if nobody emails fasa their thoughts/opinions.

Well, this is a /discussion/ list about Shadowrun, and future Shadowrun
products are certainly worthy of discussion.. ;)

However, you should email shadowrun@****.com with your opinions, because,
well, that's what they want you to do.

Adam
< http://staff.dumpshock.com/adamj / adamj@*********.com / UIN 2350330 >
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:30:01 +0200
According to Ojaste,James [NCR], on Wed, 25 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> > "A fiction section" means an in-character part of the book
>
> Hm. Differing terminology I guess. I wouldn't call that fiction,

Depends on what you're used to, I guess, though I must say it confused me at
first, too.

> I'd call it a description of the world as narrated by a fictional
> character.

They must be using the term "fiction section" because it's shorter and
easier to type, then :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Shhh....I know it's only in my head.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:49:11 +0200
According to Wagemage, on Thu, 26 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> I agree. Shadowtalk was my favorite part of the old sourcebooks and part
> of what locked me in as a long time SR player. Now, as a GM, I would love to
> see some more shadowtalk in the gear sections. I mean in the old Samurai
> catalog there were several guns which had very few differences, but the
> shadowtalk made points about reliability and undocumented problems. I
> suppose this was confusing to some people, but to me it gave the equipment
> more life. I don't need rules to assign I higher chance of jamming to a
> particular weapon, but hearing about how it broke down on Hatchetman (RIP)
> in the middle of a run gave the indication that it wasn't top notch without
> forcing it into the rules and ensuring that no one would ever buy it. Maybe
> he got a bad run, maybe it was the ammo or maybe the gun is crap, but *I*
> want to decide that as GM.
> The shadowtalk gave me that option, and I liked it.

But that was exactly the problem for FASA, as I understand it. They'd get
lots of questions from unimaginitive players who wanted to know exactly
how the unreliable gun was unreliable, and what would happen if something
went wrong to it (not to mention when that something _would_ go wrong).

FASA's solution appears to be to cut these comments altogether, instead of
the other option, namely giving rules that support the shadowcomments. And
I know the objection against that solution: it limits the players'
imagination. Still, OTOH at least it would mean the items would still have
that extra bit of color.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Shhh....I know it's only in my head.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Wage Mage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:36:29 -0400
At 09:19 PM 10/25/2000 -0700, Augustus wrote:
>Hmm... as a thought... sure its great that everybody is talking about
>this... interesting to see what other people think about the shadow talk,
>the fiction and layouts of the books...
>
>But as I think... wasn't the original point of the posting that Fasa was
>looking to solicit opinions on future sourcebooks (or an entire line on
>sourcebooks)?
>
>Each of us telling the other what we think about the books and format isn't
>going to accomplish anything if nobody emails fasa their thoughts/opinions.
>
>Just a thought...

I assumed that since Mike checks this list from time to time that posting
our comments here would lead to him getting them. I think these discussions
are for the most part fairly informative for FASA.
Message no. 18
From: Wage Mage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:40:13 -0400
><snip>
> The shadowtalk gave me that option, and I liked it.
>
>But that was exactly the problem for FASA, as I understand it. They'd get
>lots of questions from unimaginitive players who wanted to know exactly
>how the unreliable gun was unreliable, and what would happen if something
>went wrong to it (not to mention when that something _would_ go wrong).
>
>FASA's solution appears to be to cut these comments altogether, instead of
>the other option, namely giving rules that support the shadowcomments. And
>I know the objection against that solution: it limits the players'
>imagination. Still, OTOH at least it would mean the items would still have
>that extra bit of color.

I understand and I'm not really surprised about that really. What
concerns me is the fact that since Fasa is gunning for new players (ie
those who have never gamed before) the color and imagination level of the
rules has been and perhaps will be cranked down to the lowest common
denominator. I don't like that.
Unimaginative players shouldn't BE players. I realize that this
isn't much of an argument to Fasa who's goal is to sell books, but Joe
Sixpack the frat guy is never gonna play SR. Lets not fill the game with
keg references in an attempt to get him to.
Message no. 19
From: Lee Decker leedecker@******.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:47:59 -0400
> I understand and I'm not really surprised about that really. What
>concerns me is the fact that since Fasa is gunning for new players (ie
>those who have never gamed before) the color and imagination level of the
>rules has been and perhaps will be cranked down to the lowest common
>denominator. I don't like that.
> Unimaginative players shouldn't BE players. I realize that this
>isn't much of an argument to Fasa who's goal is to sell books, but Joe
>Sixpack the frat guy is never gonna play SR. Lets not fill the game with
>keg references in an attempt to get him to.

I've pretty much dropped off the list, but this thread got my
attention.
To me you just hit one of the fundamental reasons I haven't bought the last
several
SR books and don't plan on it. To me SR3 saw a nice tightening up of the
rules which I liked, but alot of the imagination that made each book unique
was now gone.
I for one loved the shadowtalk and story lines in each book. Many were used
as plot hooks at one time or another. I used to reread books looking for
ideas to use against my players. The new stuff I picked up, read once. Made
a note of the new rules and put it on a shelf.
I understand and have understood Fasa's need to spread its player base. But
I know my gaming group has since fallen apart and moved onto other things
besides SR partly due to this shift.


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Message no. 20
From: Caleb Quindrael caleb@*******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:05:43 +0200
>I assumed that since Mike checks this list from time to time that posting
>our comments here would lead to him getting them.

Uhm... from time to time.... that doesn't mean that once in a while he sits
down and starts reading all those 2000+ messages of the previous weeks....

VrGr Da5id

"Die for me and I'll die for you. Won't you die for me and I'll die for
you. Just like Jesus Christ, just like all their lies. Just like you and
me, just like insanity." (Velvet Acid Christ - "Fun with Knives")

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Message no. 21
From: Wage Mage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:15:13 -0400
At 03:05 PM 10/26/2000 +0200, you wrote:
> >I assumed that since Mike checks this list from time to time that posting
> >our comments here would lead to him getting them.
>
>Uhm... from time to time.... that doesn't mean that once in a while he sits
>down and starts reading all those 2000+ messages of the previous weeks....

Well I would assume he might pay some attention to the thread with
his name in the subject.
Message no. 22
From: Caleb Quindrael caleb@*******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:17:10 +0200
>Well I would assume he might pay some attention to the thread with
>his name in the subject.

OK, but I don't think he is subscribed to the list all the time. Maybe he
checks the archives once in a while (if they are still kept, I've no idea
to be honest), but than it is easy to miss, unless he checks them all.
I don't even know _if_ he really checks the list from time to time.

VrGr Da5id

"Die for me and I'll die for you. Won't you die for me and I'll die for
you. Just like Jesus Christ, just like all their lies. Just like you and
me, just like insanity." (Velvet Acid Christ - "Fun with Knives")

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Message no. 23
From: DV8 dv8@***.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:32:21 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Caleb Quindrael" <caleb@*******.nl>
> OK, but I don't think he is subscribed to the list all the time. Maybe he
> checks the archives once in a while (if they are still kept, I've no idea
> to be honest), but than it is easy to miss, unless he checks them all.
> I don't even know _if_ he really checks the list from time to time.

There are most defintely still archives:
http://lists.dumpshock.com/pipermail/shadowrn/

And I believe Mike is not subscribed and hasn't been for quite some time due
to a busy schedule.

Regards,

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 24
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:45:47 +0200
According to DV8, on Thu, 26 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> And I believe Mike is not subscribed and hasn't been for quite some time due
> to a busy schedule.

Mike was on the list sometime in, what was it, 1996-97? IIRC, he unsubbed
because the busy season was starting again, and then never got the time to
re-join the list.

If you're really desperate to know if he reads the list at all, let me know
and I'll ask him Saturday :)

--
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Shhh....I know it's only in my head.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 25
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:31:02 -0600
At 08:36 26/10/2000 -0400, Wage Mage wrote:

>I assumed that since Mike checks this list from time to time that posting
>our comments here would lead to him getting them.

Mike is not on the list and hasn't been for several years now.

Adam
< http://staff.dumpshock.com/adamj / adamj@*********.com / UIN 2350330 >
Message no. 26
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:19:53 -0700 (PDT)
> > >I assumed that since Mike checks this list from
time to time that posting our comments here would lead
to him getting them.
> >
> >Uhm... from time to time.... that doesn't mean that
once in a while he sits down and starts reading all
those 2000+ messages of the previous weeks....
>
> Well I would assume he might pay some
attention to the thread with his name in the subject.

*Doc' falls down laughing...*

No offense, bubba, but what planet are you from? ;)

I'd be surprised if Mike read 1 in 10,000 posts that
go to this list. The man is VERY, VERY busy.

It normally takes him from a week to months to reply
to SR-related questions that are sent TO HIS OFFICIAL
FASA EMAIL ADDRESS. How long do you reckon it'd take
him to get to list mail, then?

Seriously, if you want input on this matter, send what
you have to say to shadowrun@****.com. Otherwise the
chance of your input actually being read, let alone
making a difference, is VERY small.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 27
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:36:25 -0400
On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> Hey, guys, read the note carefully.
>
> If I'm not mistaken, Mike's saying that the format of
> the SOTA books doesn't have to be set in stone.

That's exactly what he's saying. Which is why it's kinda disappointing
that the AOL forums havn't really had much response since I posted this
there Monday.

The more input he gets about what the players want, the better off.
(or, rather, if no one says anything, don't blame Mike if you don't like
the resulting product :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 28
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:32:47 -0400
On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:49:11 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> FASA's solution appears to be to cut these comments altogether,
> instead of
> the other option, namely giving rules that support the
> shadowcomments. And
> I know the objection against that solution: it limits the players'
> imagination. Still, OTOH at least it would mean the items would
> still have
> that extra bit of color.
>

As long as it added a little flavor it'd be nice.
I've noticed that a lot of the "shadowcomments" seem to go either "yeah,
I agree with what was just said" or are totally off the wall
contradictions. Not as much gray area as it used to be.
(IMO of course)

I'd also like an update on some of the characters that became familiar
through that shadowtalk.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 29
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:30:02 -0700 (PDT)
<snipt!(TM)>
> That's exactly what he's saying. Which is why it's
kinda disappointing that the AOL forums havn't really
had much response since I posted this there Monday.
>
> The more input he gets about what the players want,
the better off. (or, rather, if no one says anything,
don't blame Mike if you don't like the resulting
product :-)
> Vocenoctum

Well, seeing as how I'm apparently the only person
who's responded directly to Mike about this, the SOTA
books should have exactly what I want in them,
shouldn't they? ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 30
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:22:36 EDT
In a message dated 10/26/00 8:37:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
vocenoctum@****.com writes:

> That's exactly what he's saying. Which is why it's kinda disappointing
> that the AOL forums havn't really had much response since I posted this
> there Monday.

Largely cuz the FASA staff seems preoccupied w/ BTech stuff there....SR gets
forced aside.
Message no. 31
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:48:12 -0400
On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> <snipt!(TM)>
> > That's exactly what he's saying. Which is why it's
> kinda disappointing that the AOL forums havn't really
> had much response since I posted this there Monday.
> >
> > The more input he gets about what the players want,
> the better off. (or, rather, if no one says anything,
> don't blame Mike if you don't like the resulting
> product :-)
> > Vocenoctum
>
> Well, seeing as how I'm apparently the only person
> who's responded directly to Mike about this, the SOTA
> books should have exactly what I want in them,
> shouldn't they? ;)

actually, I think he forwards all your mail to the kill file
automatically, so it'll be just what I want, not YOU :-)


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 32
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:55:24 -0500
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART


> <snipt!(TM)>
> > That's exactly what he's saying. Which is why it's
> kinda disappointing that the AOL forums havn't really
> had much response since I posted this there Monday.
> >
> > The more input he gets about what the players want,
> the better off. (or, rather, if no one says anything,
> don't blame Mike if you don't like the resulting
> product :-)
> > Vocenoctum

Ah, I don't go to the AOL account very often, if ever simply because I'm too
busy. I may keep it in mind however for the future. Also note Voce, that
FASA has finally gone to domain email mapping, so the "AOL Accounts" are not
watched as closely as they once were (hence, the (shadowrun@****.com)
instead of FASAMike@***.com).
>
> Well, seeing as how I'm apparently the only person
> who's responded directly to Mike about this, the SOTA
> books should have exactly what I want in them,
> shouldn't they? ;)

Hmmm ... why is it, I have a sudden urge to break something here....
anyways... VN is correct in that any feedback that FASA:SR gets, the better.
But as for the rumor in the other post about Battletech getting all the
credit, that simply is no longer the case. Shadowrun now outsells
Battletech and has for more than a year solid.

Granted, with the merciless release schedule of the future (the HHH movies
indicated such a while ago actually), it will be anyones guess who takes the
lead in 2001.

Oh yeah... and I'm back...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 33
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:14:43 -0700 (PDT)
> > Well, seeing as how I'm apparently the only person
who's responded directly to Mike about this, the SOTA
books should have exactly what I want in them,
shouldn't they? ;)
>
> actually, I think he forwards all your mail to the
kill file automatically, so it'll be just what I want,
not YOU :-)
> Vocenoctum

No, that's that other Doc'. The evil one.

I'm the NICE Doc'.

No, really.

*Doc' smiles innocently at Vocenoctum, while crossing
his fingers behind his back and searching around
behind him for his PAC...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 34
From: Jeff Long jalong8@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:19:38 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: <vocenoctum@****.com>

> That's exactly what he's saying. Which is why it's kinda disappointing
> that the AOL forums havn't really had much response since I posted this
> there Monday.

Well part of the problem is that the Game Information Exchange (or GIX) no
longer has any link connecting it to the rest of AOL. It's still there, but
unless you have the link you can't find it. So most of the people who post
there are those who had the link before the link got cut, and many of them
are no longer around. That board needs new blood to be revitalized Voce,
IMHO.

> The more input he gets about what the players want, the better off.
> (or, rather, if no one says anything, don't blame Mike if you don't like
> the resulting product :-)

Now here's a question, has anyone thought to pass this around to thier
gaming groups to your groups opinions. After all, not everyone who plays
Shadowrun bothers with the internet/ WWW/ Bulleton Boards, etc..

Just a thought.

Jalong1
Message no. 35
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 22:37:37 -0400
On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> > actually, I think he forwards all your mail to the
> kill file automatically, so it'll be just what I want,
> not YOU :-)
> > Vocenoctum
>
> No, that's that other Doc'. The evil one.
>
> I'm the NICE Doc'.
>
> No, really.
>
> *Doc' smiles innocently at Vocenoctum, while crossing
> his fingers behind his back and searching around
> behind him for his PAC...*
>


There's a nice doc?
::checks through back memo's::
no, I never recieved word of that...


*watches Doc dramatically work the action on his PAC*
Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 36
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:07:20 -0400
On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:55:24 -0500 "NeoJudas"
<neojudas@******************.com> writes:
VN is correct in that any feedback that FASA:SR gets, the
> better.
> But as for the rumor in the other post about Battletech getting all
> the
> credit, that simply is no longer the case. Shadowrun now outsells
> Battletech and has for more than a year solid.
>
>

What Demon was refering to was the Gaming Company Support forums. Randall
Bills really only addresses the Btech and so the only posts to teh forum
tend to be for Btech.
Mike doesn't actually post to any of the forums that I know of, though
Steve Kenson and JonSzeto have/do from time to time.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 37
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:14:44 GMT
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>Well, seeing as how I'm apparently the only person
>who's responded directly to Mike about this, the SOTA
>books should have exactly what I want in them,
>shouldn't they? ;)

Not quite, whatever you asked for has to contend with my demands for shaman
fashion tips and new metatypes :)>

Phil

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Message no. 38
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 09:12:51 -0500
From: "Lee Decker" <leedecker@******.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 7:47 AM

> I for one loved the shadowtalk and story lines in each book. Many were
> used as plot hooks at one time or another. I used to reread books looking
> for ideas to use against my players. The new stuff I picked up, read once.
> Made a note of the new rules and put it on a shelf.

The next several books down the line are *all* storyline books (with the
occasional adventure), with the exception of RIGGER 3, which is the last of
the rules upgrades.

But the next three or four books, off the top of my head, are world and
storyline books, not rules supplements. TARGET: MATRIX (a small percentage
of which I wrote), YEAR OF THE COMET (an even smaller percentage of which I
wrote, due to a couple of cosmic and karmic misunderstandings on my part),
TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS, SHADOWS OF NORTH AMERICA, TARGET: WASTELANDS...this
is all storyline stuff, with minimal rules.

> I understand and have understood Fasa's need to spread its player base.
> But I know my gaming group has since fallen apart and moved onto other
> things besides SR partly due to this shift.

You have, of course, brought this to the attention of the people who can fix
it, that being Mike and Rob at FASA, right?

Patrick
Message no. 39
From: Thomas Calderon vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:28:53 -0400
On Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:14:44 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
> >From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
> >Well, seeing as how I'm apparently the only person
> >who's responded directly to Mike about this, the SOTA
> >books should have exactly what I want in them,
> >shouldn't they? ;)
>
> Not quite, whatever you asked for has to contend with my demands for
> shaman
> fashion tips and new metatypes :)>

and, don't forget my rules for black berry cat's as PCs.
(oh, sure Mike might not publish them, but maybe I can convince Rob to
slip them in when he's not looking :-)
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Message no. 40
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:37:52 -0500
From: "Patrick Goodman" <pgoodman13@************.com>
Subject: Re: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART


> From: "Lee Decker" <leedecker@******.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 7:47 AM
>
> > I for one loved the shadowtalk and story lines in each book. Many were
> > used as plot hooks at one time or another. I used to reread books
looking
> > for ideas to use against my players. The new stuff I picked up, read
once.
> > Made a note of the new rules and put it on a shelf.
>
> The next several books down the line are *all* storyline books (with the
> occasional adventure), with the exception of RIGGER 3, which is the last
of
> the rules upgrades.

There is an ancient, nasty phrase possibly only outdone by a roommate who
managed to disconnect our lines this morning...

"Never Say Never".

It almost applies here.

> But the next three or four books, off the top of my head, are world and
> storyline books, not rules supplements. TARGET: MATRIX (a small
percentage
> of which I wrote), YEAR OF THE COMET (an even smaller percentage of which
I
> wrote, due to a couple of cosmic and karmic misunderstandings on my part),
> TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS, SHADOWS OF NORTH AMERICA, TARGET:
WASTELANDS...this
> is all storyline stuff, with minimal rules.
>
> > I understand and have understood Fasa's need to spread its player base.
> > But I know my gaming group has since fallen apart and moved onto other
> > things besides SR partly due to this shift.
>
> You have, of course, brought this to the attention of the people who can
fix
> it, that being Mike and Rob at FASA, right?

I had some nifty, ultra-nasty comment to sling here and then I realized it
simply wasn't worth it (word of advice, never try and start a business with
someone who has a habit of unplugging high-end internet lines...).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 41
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 16:28:14 EDT
In a message dated 10/28/00 10:17:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pgoodman13@************.com writes:

> But the next three or four books, off the top of my head, are world and
> storyline books, not rules supplements. TARGET: MATRIX (a small percentage
> of which I wrote), YEAR OF THE COMET (an even smaller percentage of which I
> wrote, due to a couple of cosmic and karmic misunderstandings on my part),
> TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS, SHADOWS OF NORTH AMERICA, TARGET: WASTELANDS...this
> is all storyline stuff, with minimal rules.

Pardon...Target: Wastelands? HUH? Do explain, PLEASE.:-)
Message no. 42
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:55:03 -0800 (PST)
> > No, that's that other Doc'. The evil one.
> >
> > I'm the NICE Doc'.
> >
> > No, really.
> >
> > *Doc' smiles innocently at Vocenoctum, while
crossing his fingers behind his back and searching
around behind him for his PAC...*
>
> There's a nice doc?
> ::checks through back memo's::
> no, I never recieved word of that...
> *watches Doc dramatically work the action on his
PAC*
> Vocenoctum

Yeah there is.

He's the one we keep chained up in the attic and feed
him a diet of fish heads.

Oops, no, wait...that's EVIL Doc'...eeeeeeeevil Doc'.
Yeah. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 43
From: Slaan-esh slaanesh@******.univ.szczecin.pl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:06:08 +0100 (CET)
> Well, seeing as how I'm apparently the only person
> who's responded directly to Mike about this, the SOTA
> books should have exactly what I want in them,
> shouldn't they? ;)

You are no the only one, I am the second one :-).
Concluding, it is us whose SOTA will become ;-P

> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

Guru

--
And she comes down to me
And she offers me sleep
Under her black wings
Glenn Danzig
Message no. 44
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 04:41:10 -0500
From: "Slaan-esh" <slaanesh@******.univ.szczecin.pl>
Subject: Re: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART


> > Well, seeing as how I'm apparently the only person
> > who's responded directly to Mike about this, the SOTA
> > books should have exactly what I want in them,
> > shouldn't they? ;)
>
> You are no the only one, I am the second one :-).
> Concluding, it is us whose SOTA will become ;-P

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Okay... I couldn't help myself this time....

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 45
From: Lars Wagner Hansen l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 14:13:39 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Goodman <pgoodman13@************.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART


> TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS, SHADOWS OF NORTH AMERICA, TARGET:
WASTELANDS...this
> is all storyline stuff, with minimal rules.

OK, so we have all heard/read about Target: Awakened Lans, but what can you
telle us about Shadows of North America (like we need another sourcebook
about NA) and Target: Wastelands... You must know somethings otherwise you
wouldn't mention them!

Please... pretty please... with sugar...

Lars
--
The solution to many problems lies in having somebody else do the work.
[Andrew S. Tanenbaum]
--
Lars Wagner Hansen mailto:l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Jagtvej 11 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
DK-4180 Sorø phone +45 5783 5950
Denmark
Message no. 46
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 06:30:54 -0600
At 14:13 30/10/2000 +0100, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

>OK, so we have all heard/read about Target: Awakened Lans, but what can you
>telle us about Shadows of North America (like we need another sourcebook
>about NA)

We do. We need a /good/ sourcebook about NA, which we haven't had before.

> and Target: Wastelands... You must know somethings otherwise you
>wouldn't mention them!

http://tss.dumpshock.com/sos-gc2000.html for the Gencon 2000 Secrets of
Shadowrun seminar, which has info about T:AL and SoNA. The main Secrets of
Shadowrun site is at http://tss.dumpshock.com/sos.php, but is in need of a
few updates as - once again - some release dates have slipped and a new
project (Target: Wastelands) has been added to the release schedule.

Adam
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Message no. 47
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:05:43 +0100
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Mon, 30 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> > TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS, SHADOWS OF NORTH AMERICA, TARGET:
> WASTELANDS...this
> > is all storyline stuff, with minimal rules.
>
> OK, so we have all heard/read about Target: Awakened Lans, but what can you
> telle us about Shadows of North America (like we need another sourcebook
> about NA)

Like Adam said: yes, we do. As it is, information about North America
outside of Seattle is split among seven books (NAN 1 & 2, NAGNA, Denver,
Target: UCAS, California Free State and Tir Tairngire) and those are all set
in the early to mid-2050s. We're now roughly a decade on, and a lot of
things have changed in that time. Also, have you considered that another
reason for another book on NA could be that it might introduce major
changes?

> Target: Wastelands... You must know somethings otherwise you wouldn't
> mention them!

Ah, but the thing is: is Patrick _allowed_ to tell you? If he signed a
non-disclosure agreement, he isn't...

--
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Message no. 48
From: Scott M Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:37:15 -0500
<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>

On Monday, October 30, 2000, at 01:05 PM, Gurth wrote:


<italic>According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Mon, 30 Oct 2000 the word on the street
was...</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>> > TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS,
SHADOWS OF NORTH AMERICA,
TARGET:</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>>
WASTELANDS...this</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> > is all storyline stuff,
with minimal rules.</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>>
</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> OK, so we have all
heard/read about Target: Awakened Lans, but what can
you</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> telle us about Shadows of
North America (like we need another
sourcebook</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>> about NA)
</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


<italic></italic></color><italic>Like Adam said: yes, we do. As it
is, information about North
America</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>outside of Seattle is split among
seven books (NAN 1 & 2, NAGNA,
Denver,</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>Target: UCAS, California Free
State and Tir Tairngire) and those are all
set</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>in the early to mid-2050s. We're
now roughly a decade on, and a lot
of</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>things have changed in that time.
Also, have you considered that
another</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>reason for another book on NA
could be that it might introduce
major</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>

<italic></italic></color><italic>changes?</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>


What about Bug City? :-)


--Scott
Message no. 49
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:24:58 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>

>Like Adam said: yes, we do. As it is, information about North America
>outside of Seattle is split among seven books (NAN 1 & 2, NAGNA, >Denver,
>Target: UCAS, California Free State and Tir Tairngire) and those are all
set
>in the early to mid-2050s. We're now roughly a decade on, and a lot of
>things have changed in that time. Also, have you considered that another
>reason for another book on NA could be that it might introduce major
>changes?

Probably the biggest reason is... sure there is lots of info already done...
but its all pretty much out of print... Personally, I have everything for
shadowrun except for Shutdown and Cannon Companion, so I have all the
previously listed sourcebooks...

But for anybody who started playing shadowrun after SR2 was out won't have
access to NAGTA, NAN1/2 and Tir Tairngire... for those in after SR3 came
out, they might be able to get Target: UCAS still... but everything else is
out of print.

Now sure, you might think "well if they want the books so bad, they can buy
them off eBay or something". But that does nothing for Fasa. If I go on to
eBay and sell my NAGTA sourcebook for say $50... I'm not going to say "Oooh,
I owe some thanks to fasa for that... I should mail them a cheque for $10 as
a tribute". So Fasa gets nothing for those books sold on ebay or otherwise.

And then ofcourse, some might be discouraged and give up on playing the game
if they're looking at it like "Gee, everything I want... I can't get...
because its all going for $30 on up on eBay"

As far as I see it... Fasa should really consider people like me a very low
priority... I'm already sold on the game... it has everything I want in an
RPG (good setting, skill based system, lots of freedom to do what you want,
no levels, no hit points). Their biggest priority has to be getting new
players into the game and getting them to the point where they are like
me... hooked into playing.

Because in the long run it serves everybody... it serves fasa by ensuring
the survivability of their game... it serves new players by giving them a
good game with good products to play... and it serves the old timers by
ensuring that we can keep getting more and more material/product to play
with.

ICE is one of many companies that are gone now... because they didn't
concentrate enough on brining in new players. Their material was full of
holes if you were new to the game... because so much of the stuff was left
to 'old books' that all their core players already had... so new players
were pretty much left SOL as far as their game went (some of it was
reprinted, sure... but not enough of it was)

Anyhow, thats my rant

Augustus
Message no. 50
From: Wage Mage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:26:07 -0500
At 12:24 PM 10/30/2000 -0800, you wrote:
><snip>
>As far as I see it... Fasa should really consider people like me a very low
>priority... I'm already sold on the game... it has everything I want in an
>RPG (good setting, skill based system, lots of freedom to do what you want,
>no levels, no hit points). Their biggest priority has to be getting new
>players into the game and getting them to the point where they are like
>me... hooked into playing.
>
>Because in the long run it serves everybody... it serves fasa by ensuring
>the survivability of their game... it serves new players by giving them a
>good game with good products to play... and it serves the old timers by
>ensuring that we can keep getting more and more material/product to play
>with.

Another group of note (perhaps, maybe I'm odd) are people like myself who
didn't have the money or in some cases the inclination to run out and get
every single SR book the day it came out. Sure I love the game, bought a
second printing of 1st ed., but I was 14 when I did. My cash flow was
rather weak at that time. I couldn't afford to buy all the books I would
have liked to have had, and nice as they were I'm not buying them all for
$40 a pop on eBay. I also don't buy modules for games I'm playing in (lest
the GM try to run it), so I missed a few adventures that way also.

But if they put out a new book, I now have money, I'm GMing so I have the
inclination and I'll buy it. But I missed out on the initial run through.
Message no. 51
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:27:46 GMT
>From: "Augustus" <shadowrun@********.net>
>As far as I see it... Fasa should really consider people like me a very low
>priority... I'm already sold on the game... it has everything I want in an
>RPG (good setting, skill based system, lots of freedom to do what you want,
>no levels, no hit points). Their biggest priority has to be getting new
>players into the game and getting them to the point where they are like
>me... hooked into playing.

I'm only really throwing my 2¥ in here because the list is so slow ATM.

I thing FASA have been working hard to make sure they update their old books
for the new players; you can play the game with the BBB, SRComp, M&M, CC,
MITS and The Matrix (TM?), you only need Rigger2 to have access to every
rule in the game.

As for sourcebooks; they are nice, but not essential for new players, if you
own New Seattle you have all the info you need to run a few years worth of
SR.

OTOH, I really want FASA to update/re-release the Tir Taingire sourcebook.
GMs do want to add things to their games which they just don't have the info
on and can't get the books. Of course, to a certain extent, thats what
we're here for.

Phil

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Message no. 52
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:39:05 GMT
>From: Wage Mage <wagemage@**.rr.com>
>Another group of note (perhaps, maybe I'm odd) are people like myself who
>didn't have the money or in some cases the inclination to run out and get
>every single SR book the day it came out. Sure I love the game, bought a
>second printing of 1st ed., but I was 14 when I did. My cash flow was
>rather weak at that time. I couldn't afford to buy all the books I would
>have liked to have had, and nice as they were I'm not buying them all for
>$40 a pop on eBay. I also don't buy modules for games I'm playing in (lest
>the GM try to run it), so I missed a few adventures that way also.
>
>But if they put out a new book, I now have money, I'm GMing so I have the
>inclination and I'll buy it. But I missed out on the initial run through.

As what I guess is one of the SR3 only players, I should describe what its
like being a relative newbie. I buy the new books when they come out
becuase I will need them to play the game and they constantly refer to each
other. I buy SR2 books when I find them because they are normally
interesting if not useful, SR2 books make up the majority of my collection.
I buy SR1 books when I find them becuase of the novelty value and relative
rareness. But I can only guarantee that I can get my hands on the in print
books, if I have the money and I find an out of print book I normally buy it
but there is very little chance of my finding a book I specificly want. If
I really want information I post my question on this list.

Phil

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Message no. 53
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:26:23 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
>
> I think FASA have been working hard to make sure they update their old
books
> for the new players; you can play the game with the BBB, SRComp, M&M, CC,
> MITS and The Matrix (TM?), you only need Rigger2 to have access to every
> rule in the game.

This is true... but these books only apply to the rules to the game... and
though the rules are obviously important, you also need somewhere to play.

The books that fasa has spent so much time in the way of keeping up to date
are the rules... the ones that they've pushed aside are the world.

If you are a new GM to shadowrun, there is some info in the back of the
rulebook... but not enough if you really want to flesh out a good ongoing
campaign... locations, NPCs, corporations, run ideas, etc... all come from
the sourcebooks... and overall are probably the most important parts to the
game... more important than the rules.

Augustus
Message no. 54
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:37:38 -0600
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:28 PM

> Pardon...Target: Wastelands? HUH? Do explain, PLEASE.:-)

Not sure how much I should say; not 100% sure I should have opened my big
mouth in the first place, but I was in the zone with that list (and *still*
managed to forget THREATS 2) and so just started rolling.

That being said, I'll take the chance -- TARGET: WASTELANDS is pretty
self-explanatory. There are places on this planet where people just
shouldn't go...and lots of people willing to spend money to send them there.
WASTELANDS is about some of those places (toxic zone, arctic wastes, that
sorta thing).

Patrick
Message no. 55
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:45:20 -0600
From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 7:13 AM

> ....but what can you telle us about Shadows of North America (like
> we need another sourcebook about NA) and Target: Wastelands...

SHADOWS OF NORTH AMERICA is an update for lots of North America material
from seven or eight other books, updating the story line and other
information. The style is supposed to be something like what was used for
CORPORATE DOWNLOAD.

I didn't write anything for SONA, so I'm not 100% sure what it's going to
look like.

I've talked about T:W elsewhere, so I won't do it again.

Patrick
Message no. 56
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 22:12:03 -0500
From: "Patrick Goodman" <pgoodman13@************.com>
Subject: Re: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART


> From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:28 PM
>
> > Pardon...Target: Wastelands? HUH? Do explain, PLEASE.:-)
>
> Not sure how much I should say; not 100% sure I should have opened my big
> mouth in the first place, but I was in the zone with that list (and
*still*
> managed to forget THREATS 2) and so just started rolling.
>
> That being said, I'll take the chance -- TARGET: WASTELANDS is pretty
> self-explanatory. There are places on this planet where people just
> shouldn't go...and lots of people willing to spend money to send them
there.
> WASTELANDS is about some of those places (toxic zone, arctic wastes, that
> sorta thing).


Patrick, don't worry.. the information was told in Germany by Mike M. to
those enthusiasts there...

-K
Message no. 57
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:49:32 +0100
According to Scott M Harrison, on Mon, 30 Oct 2000 the word on the street was...

> <fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>
>
> On Monday, October 30, 2000, at 01:05 PM, Gurth wrote:
>
>
> <italic>According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Mon, 30 Oct 2000 the word on the
street was...</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>
>
>
> <italic></italic></color><italic>> > TARGET: AWAKENED
LANDS, SHADOWS OF NORTH AMERICA,
TARGET:</italic><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>
[snip rest]

You've got me wondering what this is, exactly... It's not HTML, but it look
like it... At any rate, could you switch it off so that those of use not
using mailers that interpret the above can read your messages normally?

> What about Bug City? :-)

It was superseded by Target: UCAS, which "resolved" the Chicago problem.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 58
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:10:06 GMT
>From: "Augustus" <shadowrun@********.net>
>If you are a new GM to shadowrun, there is some info in the back of the
>rulebook... but not enough if you really want to flesh out a good ongoing
>campaign... locations, NPCs, corporations, run ideas, etc... all come from
>the sourcebooks

Yeah, SR was the first RPG I got into and after reading the rulebook I still
had no idea how a game was supposed to work or what would happen. The
chapter on Seattle and the surrounding regions does not help at all and the
only insperation for ideas comes from the story at the start.

If it wasn't for the fact that I was being a player to a GM who had played
before I would have had no idea what I was supposed to do.

>... and overall are probably the most important parts to the
>game... more important than the rules.

I'm not sure on that; I could live without the Germany Sourcebook and play a
very involved and fun game of SR which touches all corners, whereas without
MITS I would be fairly lost. OTOH, without New Seattle I would still have
no idea how a run works. Having some sourcebooks is vital, having lots of
sourcebooks is a luxury.

Phil

Dying is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 59
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:59:26 EST
In a message dated 10/31/00 5:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> It was superseded by Target: UCAS, which "resolved" the Chicago problem.

Resolved? RESOLVED? HAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHA! It didn't resolve it, it just
officially left it alone, like I'm going to leave those muffin-analogies that
seem oh-so-perverted in the other thread alone....(Thank you for those,
folks....I'm gonna have nightmares tonight...)

Penta

"Uh oh. Cows falling from orbit...."
Message no. 60
From: Mark C Farrington alareth@*********.net
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:05:25 -0500
> telle us about Shadows of North America (like we need another sourcebook
> about NA)

We only need one new book for NA. Is there any reason that for the most
part nearly one third of North America has been ignored? Why is there no
CAS sourcebook? Last I checked they are an actual power in the the SR
world?

There is only one sorcebook I'd like to see more than a CAS book. That
would be Target: Japan. Actually Target:Land of the Rising Sun sounds
better.

Alareth
Message no. 61
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:01:32 -0600
From: "Mark C Farrington" <alareth@*********.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:05 PM

> We only need one new book for NA. Is there any reason that for the
> most part nearly one third of North America has been ignored? Why
> is there no CAS sourcebook? Last I checked they are an actual power
> in the the SR world?

Patience. Some of us are working *really* hard for just that.

In the meantime, I've seen what's planned for the CAS in SONA, and I think
it's way cool. And I say this, not as the guy who's writing it (as I'm not;
I'll let the real author step forward if he likes, but it's really not my
place), but as a guy from Texas who wants to see the CAS done well. I think
it's in very good hands.

> There is only one sorcebook I'd like to see more than a CAS book.
> That would be Target: Japan.

There are plans afoot even now to make Japan more playable, since right
now...well, it's not. Not even a little bit. But Japan has a big part to
play in YEAR OF THE COMET, and probably some mention in TARGET: AWAKENED
LANDS, but I'm really not sure what all is going to be in there except for
Australia and the Dreamtime.

I will probably get slapped for the above breach of etiquette, but I'm sick
and fucking tired of some of the "FASA freelancers are elitists and
apologists" bullshit that's going on around here right now. If this is how
I have to deal with it, showing a couple of the faint outlines of what's to
come, then I will. If Mike gets mad at me...well, I'll deal with it. I
hope he doesn't; I happen to like working on these things, no matter how
much I might bitch at the time.

Patrick
Message no. 62
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:20:05 -0500
On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:01:32 -0600 "Patrick Goodman"
<pgoodman13@************.com> writes:
> I will probably get slapped for the above breach of etiquette, but
> I'm sick
> and fucking tired of some of the "FASA freelancers are elitists and
> apologists" bullshit that's going on around here right now. If this
> is how
> I have to deal with it, showing a couple of the faint outlines of
> what's to
> come, then I will. If Mike gets mad at me...well, I'll deal with
> it. I
> hope he doesn't; I happen to like working on these things, no matter
> how
> much I might bitch at the time.
>

For what it's worth, your post wasn't "I know something you don't know"
or giving away too much to me.
It's a fine line, and generally easier to simply avoid altogethor.
Since I am one of the ones that feels there are certain people that
routinely cross that line, I'll say that it's not all the freelancers or
playtesters.
It's just tiresome when you ask a question like "will FASA publish info
on the CAS" and get a response saying "if only I could comment here"
ugh, I'm wandering off course again, must retreat to bed.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 63
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:24:41 +0100
According to Mark C Farrington, on Wed, 01 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> We only need one new book for NA. Is there any reason that for the most
> part nearly one third of North America has been ignored? Why is there no
> CAS sourcebook? Last I checked they are an actual power in the the SR
> world?

There's no UCAS sourcebook, either, so I don't think that's a valid
comment -- both the CAS and UCAS were covered in roughly the same amount of
detail in the NAGNA. I have to admit there are more books covering parts of
the UCAS than parts of the CAS, but (aside from the inclusion of Boston in
Target: UCAS) I think these were valid because of major events happening
there (Bug City), or of major powers residing there (Detroit).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 64
From: Lute, David dlute@********.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:19:49 -0500
>There's no UCAS sourcebook, either, so I don't think that's a valid
>comment -- both the CAS and UCAS were covered in roughly the same
amount of
>detail in the NAGNA. I have to admit there are more books covering
parts of
>the UCAS than parts of the CAS, but (aside from the inclusion of
Boston in
>Target: UCAS) I think these were valid because of major events
happening
>there (Bug City), or of major powers residing there (Detroit).

I have to disagree. There are several UCAS books. Seatle
Sourcebook gives you a very good history of UCAS and gives you some good
info on UCAS as a whole even stuff outside of Seatle. Underground
Sourcebook gives you good info on all the Mob cartels in various parts of
UCAS but not any for CAS (I might be wrong been a while since I looked at
it). Target UCAS that gives you all of info on the UCAS area. Almost all
the published adventures take place in Seatle (UCAS) or another city in
UCAS. TT give you info on the relations between UCAS and TT. The main book
gives you some broad overview of UCAS but nothing about CAS after the split.
And Denver also gives you some more info on the UCAS. Also NAGRL gives you
some more good info on the UCAS.

For CAS you have some in NAGRL. Some more in Denver. Then the only
other real mention of it is in Lone Star and that is only a page on the fact
that Lone Star's headquarters are in Austin.

I am not bitter just would like to see it more flushed out. All the
other lands in NA have had a sourcebook devoted to them. UCAS - Target
UCAS, Seatle, Bug City, Denver, NAGRL and well almost every product has some
info on them.
CFS - CFS
TT - TT
Indian Lands - NAN 1 and NAN 2 Denver
CAS - NAGRL, Denver
Mexico - Aztechnology

So basically I would just like to see CAS flushed out a bit more is
all.

DL
Message no. 65
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Mike Mulvihill on STATE OF THE ART
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:57:23 -0800 (PST)
<snipt(TM)!>
> For CAS you have some in NAGRL. Some more in
Denver. Then the only other real mention of it is in
Lone Star and that is only a page on the fact that
Lone Star's headquarters are in Austin.
>
> I am not bitter just would like to see it more
flushed out. All the other lands in NA have had a
sourcebook devoted to them. UCAS - Target UCAS,
Seatle, Bug City, Denver, NAGRL and well almost every
product has some info on them.
> CFS - CFS
> TT - TT
> Indian Lands - NAN 1 and NAN 2 Denver
> CAS - NAGRL, Denver
> Mexico - Aztechnology
>
> So basically I would just like to see CAS flushed
out a bit more is all.
> DL

Just a few mistakes there, David. NAGtNA covered both
Dallas-Ft. Worth and Atlanta, IIRC. The Underworld
Sourcebook actually mentioned the New Orleans branch
of the Mafia, but not much, if anything else
CAS-related. Target: Smuggler's Havens has a section
on New Orleans.

Still, your point is well taken. Comparitively
speaking, there isn't a lot of CAS related materials,
but the same thing goes for all non UCAS states
(really - some places have sourcebooks (TT, CFS,
London etc.), some only have PARTS of sourcebooks
(Russia/Vladivostock and Africe in T:Smuggler's
Havens, the NAN nations etc.). The CAS, on the other
hand, is mentioned in a number of books - but no one's
ever TRULY tried to give a comprehensive overview of
the nation. There are lots of vague hints, but not a
lot else. For instance, I'd prefer to run a campaign
in CFS, because, even though it probably has less
material overall compared to the CAS, it has a
sourcebook which tries to cover most of the major
locations and aspects of life there.

Personally, I'd LOVE to get more New Orleans material,
and data on the rest of the CAS wouldn't go at all amiss.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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