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Message no. 1
From: Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject: Military and Reality.
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 15:48:10 +22310502
I has just occured to me that you are all trying to relate what I have said
to real life. I am trying to restrict it to the terms of the Shadow Run
combat system.

REAL LIFE:

1. if you are hit with a bullet you are not going to be doing anything for a
while, including breathing most likely. A combat knife will kill you very
effectivly too with a good thrust, and you do not have to be an expert. I
do not contest this. In present day armies the method of fighting is
inefficient but fairly deadly.

2. since we do not have real cyberware to compair prices with, all this talk
of it being expensive is a bit premature.

3. we do not know if there will be cyberware at all. (I tend to think not
for the same reasons I don't believe there will be the kind of artifical
intellegences most people seem to think there will be.) If it is developed
we have no idea what it will be capable of.

___________________________________________________________________________

SHADOWRUN:

1. if you are hit with a bullet, or even three, you are likely to remain
standing or even take no damage. You don't even lose an action. If some
one jumps you with a combat knife you will probably never even take a light
wound. You can take multiple bullets, spells, knife thrusts and expolsions
and still be functional. We all do it in the average fire fight. In that
situation, where cyber ware would allow these sorts of abillities, anyone
who fights for a living would be insane not to have it. Militaries are
pointless in this world if they are no equiped with cyberware.

2. we do have cyberware and prices. They are high prices for a military
budget, but to make every soldier a super soldier of the type described
above is worth it. It is a must just to survive. Within the Shadowrun
system my party CAN kill dozens of uncybered opponents. Admittedly we
always do have very powerful cha.'s, but even with less powerful ones we
still could kill them. That is what this game is about. If I wanted my
cha.'s to die each game I would go play Recon. (player mortality
rate%%-50% for average adventure) Even if played well, normals are no
match for samauri.

3. we have the tech and we know what it can do. It can, by allowing you to
go first, give you the power to kill multiple threats without giving them a
chance to react. It gives you the ability to see heat and hear a foot fall
a dozen meters away. It allows you to take a bullet full in the chest
without even breaking stride. You can kill an opponent with out hitting
your friends even when they are right next to each other. Now read over
those descriptions and tell me that the military wouldn't be interested in
cyberware for it's soldiers. Heck, they would buy it even if they couldn't
afford it...



I found that as I read over the arguments over this and as I wrote them that
all of us are guilty of trying to apply reality to a gaming system. If we
are going to argue specific ideas about the system we should try at least a
bit to keep it within the system itself. Arguing a point that is not in
keeping with the system leads us to only endless rules changes, something I
am glad Shadow Run doesn't have. I learned that lession with Star Fleet
Battles and their 200+ pages of addendiums and "rules clarifications"...
--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch
Message no. 2
From: Dennis E Watson <dew6171@****.ACNS.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military and Reality.
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 19:57:37 EST
Greetings.

There has raged on the list a discussion of the amounts of cyber in
police and military personnel. I am now putting in my two nuyen's worth.
It is my humble belief that some people do not realize the huge
difference between special forces and regular army. Likewise, the lines
between police officer and elite SWAT members is being ignored. I have
put my runners through military scenarios, in the third world. I have
placed the team in a nasty gang war, and watched them struggle to escape.
If, for whatever reason, you out there think that a modern army in the
sixth world needs cyber to be a legitimate fighting force, you are running
your NPC's way too dumb. For example, the Panther Cannon was designed as
a platoon heavy weapon. Most groups of 20 men will have them. Or, worse,
a rocket/missile launcher. If your team can take out 20 men who have
cover, smart goggles, and heavy weapons support, then they are probably
really well equiped. I wish them well on the modern battlefield.
Especially when they realize that they have run out of food, having
decided to carry all that wiz gear. Sorry guys, you've been out for two
weeks, and artillery has taken out the command control. You are stranded,
in a chaotic environment, with no food, and any number of enemies, all
around. Are those guys shooting this way bad guys, or are they ours? No
telling, the radio broke when you took that grenade blast. But hey, your
dermal plate and body armor kept you perfectly alive.
Armies in the field need food, ammo, and spare parts. If they are
mech, they need petrol too. Can your cyber monsters stand up to a
Stonewall Main Battle Tank? You know, the one with the kinetic rail gun
in the turret. If they can, something is wrong. If they can't, then all
the money that went into cybering them up will be wasted just as soon as
the enemy intel finds out about them. Let's face it, If your troops cost
500,000 each for cyber and training, then I can take 50 raw recruits at
10,000 each and throw them at one of yours. If even one of mine lives, I
have come out ahead. And Chummer, it won't take 50 to kill your one.
Only if they are totally stupid will you take them out.
Oh, so you have chosen to put your boys in units? Dude, an artillery
or high altitude bombing attack will negate your edge. Yes, throw a tac-nuc,
let's kill 'em good. Chem weapons, lets save the cyber. Large scale
cybering of troops on the modern battlefield is an invitation for
strategic warfare. Biowar, Chemwar, you name it. As a commander, I would
feel obligated to use such methods to protect my command. A simple
minefield combined with a mortar attack..
Well, the examples for why this is not feasable go on forever. And to
date, every argument in favor of heavy cyber has really been an argument
in favor of all troops being special forces. That's real nice if you live
in Switzerland or Norway or Japan, where large scale unit engagements are
not practical due to topographical constraints. Your cybered force could
probably hold Gibralter or Malta until they starved to death. But try
this one on the Russian Steppes. I dare you. The reason the Souix do it
is because they don't have a very big army. Their battle plan, BTW, as
FASA describes it, calls for letting the enemy occupy the country and then
conducting guerrilla activities.
Oh, and the idea of doing this with cops.. I find it amazing that
anyone feels that cops need cyber. They have the wait of the world's
single most vengeful force on their side; the law. You have to sleep.
You have to eat. Someone will recognize you. Gutter punks will try to
take you down for the reward. The Tigers will decide that your house gets
watched by too many cops. Your contacts will get arrested, and it will be
_your_ fault. See how much more work you do. Eventually, someone
powerful will take you down, either to remove a threat or to collect some
reward. Cybered cops is overkill. Cyber your SWAT teams and have done
with it.
Wow, I really ranted, didn't I. Sorry about this, but I'm a History
Major, focus military history. Large armies are designed to occupy. The
fighting is incidental. Likewise, police serve the same function, really,
but in peacetime, and without the same level of resentment. If something
messes with the goal to occupy, then overwhelming force is brought to bear.
Thats where the Sammies and the Riggers fit in.
Comments, Criticism, and even flames are welcome. I'd love to defend
my position. I'll fill your mailbox so full, you'll scream for mercy.

And then I'll send in some uncybered grunts to occupy it. :-)

Dennis E. Watson, watson@*******.fsu.edu
Message no. 3
From: Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military and Reality.
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 23:46:44 +22310502
I keep trying to explain that it is not that our GM is dumb, it is that we,
as a party, are good at running. He is one and we are 6, so he has to
outsmart all of us. We also never use the same trick more than twice. We
always have a new idea on tap.

The players are allowed to be intelligent too. Our gm could just make it
impossible for us to do anything creative and we would all be dead. But
that is not the kind of game we play.
--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch

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