Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Deird'Re Brooks <deirdre@***.ORG>
Subject:	Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Mon, 29 Nov 1993 08:57:30 -0800

Message no. 1 Ivy Respond
Subj: Intelligent GMing and Role-Playing

We just had this little exchange on the 'net. I would like to
use it to point out a few things that I don't think most S'run
GMs, or players, ever think of.

>> Well, I have always been of the opinion that you cna take out
>>any other cha. if you do it right. If one of those 300+ karma
>>point cha. deceided to kill me I might just step over into
>>their world for a moment and do something really silly like
>>expend enough C4 on their appartment to blow up a few city
>>blocks. Our previous party did it, we could do it again. Of
>>course I recomend retiring those cha. right away. People tend
>>to get a bit upset when you demolish 3 or 4 city blocks.
>>Still, I do not think even 300+ karma can defend against 90+
>>kilos of C4. Who needs a nuke? All that nasty radiation.

>Nah, nukes can be pretty clean if you're careful about it. I
>mean, really, we're talking 61 years into the future. A small
>suitcase nuke would do the job admirably, _and_ leave very
>little fallout.

>Or you could attempt to use a fuel-air explosive. That would
>give you thermonuclear level explosion without the nuclear.
>Just heat, light and kinetic energy.

The FIRST problem is the simplest. How do you find one, or four,
little fish in the *huge* pond of a city? >FYI Seattle *claims*
a population of 3,000,000, given the dynamics of poverty as
demonstrated for the world in India, Argentina, and South Central
L.A. it's actual population is very propably about 6 to 7 million
with only about 2.75 million people actually *counted*!< Fish
that don't have credit cards, legal licenses (for anything),
addresses, legal phone numbers, or any other form of usable
identification. Or, worse, they have identifications (in the
case of Diamonds) under anything from two to eight different
names depending on the day of the week.

The SECOND problem is just precisely how does the character make
the search look so natural that no-one, of *many* friends they
have helped, will call them and tell them that some 'people' are
lookin' for them?

The THIRD problem is that the character will probably be a bit
noticable carting the explosives into UCAS-SEA don't y'think?
The detection threshold is a '2' so they will get caught. Plus
it will take, for an apartment block, an amount much closer to
5,000 kilos. (C4 ain't a miracle cure for buildings, let alone
for a *block* of them!) Or, of course, they can always try to
buy them in SEA. With a high enough Etiquette-Street it can be
done, and you might get enough successes to keep the seller from
calling "a few friends" about the extremely odd sale too.
Diamonds has *9* successes to find out if a buy like that goes
down y'see.

The FOURTH problem, considering that you have found out where
they slept last night, gotten to it, and got your explosives to
it, is; Are there any traps, surveilance devices or other
security on the area. If you did your homework you will know
that you are dealing with from one to three hermetic mages and a
pair of samurai-deckers.

The FIFTH problem is that where they slept last night is rarely
where they will sleep the next.

"So lure them to a fake meet." y'say. OK, the meet will be
scouted astrally, and physically, before the meet. The place,
and it's surroundings will be kept under physical and magical obs
till the meet is over, and they will be dressed to survive a
.50M2HB using *my* interpretation of them. (No single bit of
armor heavier that an Armor Jacket, just layered per AGRL) They
know that the average ranges of their usual detects (explosives,
traps, enemies) is 360 meters and they plan accordingly. They
will control all areas within that range that could conceal
enemies and deny all areas outside of it. They *are* used to
"line-of-sight" and it's effects. Watcher and bound spirits are
a great way to deny an area. Either the watcher pops up yelling
and waving, and Diamonds adds a grenade, or the elemental eats
the person trying to hide there. Both have happened.

So while did I write up this "brag file" y'ask? Because if any
oppo of a team doesn't have at least that heavy security then the
GM isn't doing her job. These P.C.s are a bit O.T.T. but not
much at all. Most suits would sleep most nights in the same
place, but they would also have *armed* guards and *more*
security too.

Players, you should be looking for everything on this list when
you go to the john in a strange place, let alone when you try to
make a hit on a suit or another runner.

Oh, yes, SEA *is* the kind of place where a member of your group
will kill you for the reward on your head. If you've bought a
'buddy' *then* and **ONLY** then do you have someone you can
trust. If the game is being GM'd correctly, that is. London,
Berlin, Sydney, Tokyo, Singapore, Paris. They should be the same
in those respects, or the GM should maybe go back to AD&D.

To: The Deb Decker:
Subj: Economics of Shadowrunning.

OK, we see it about the same. I think cyberguns are a nut-ball
idea too, but spies would love em. ("DisARMing", great!)

OK, here's the drill on the Cop package and the Regular Army
package. Both of these would actually probably qualify as Alpha-
ware as they are customized for ease of building, ease of
installation, and cheapness of equipment. They would be
installed by doctors using state-of-the-art medical equipment to
get the most benefit (lowest Essence cost) possible. The Essense
cost for the cyber group would be multiplied by .72.

COP Package
Wired Reflexes 2, Vehicle Control Rigging 1, Smartlink, 300MP
FIFF memory with Display Link, Audio/Visual Link, Radio with
Encryption 6, Datajack, Lo-lite, Flare Compensation, plus Level
Dampers. The Total is 5.94 Essence. It would be a little
expensive but it would save a lot on medical bills and
infrastructure costs. Cost, with volume discount, 263,000nY

INFANTRY (Regular Army) Package
Wired Reflexes 2, Smartlink, Orientation System, Lo-lite,
Thermographics, Electronic Magnification 3, Rangefinder, Flare
Compensation, Level Damper, Radio with Encryption 8. Plus Full
Spectrum Immunity to diseases. The Total is 3.996 Essence
rounded up to a full 4 Essence. Cost, with volume discount,
243,000nY. This is less than the cost of two current-day TOW
missiles, without the launcher. A division of these soldiers
could easily defeat an army of normal soldiers. And, as I said
before, the most expensive thing in the world is a second best
army.

Infantry Non-Coms would have a Beta-ware package that would
include a Tactical Computer 3. Figuring an Essence cost of 5 for
the Tac-Comp the Total would be 5.064 (round to 5) Essence.

To all,
Please comment;
Subj: Increased Reflexes Spell and what works with it.
9. The Increased Reflexes Spell vs Reflex Booster
Cyberware and Synapse Accelerator Bioware. Just precisely
how are these two items regarded vis a vis the Increased
Reflexes spell? Do they count as Cyberware? Do any of them
work with the Increased Reflexes spell? Does Enhanced
Articulation? (My thoughts are that none of them will work
with the spell but, a very good case could be made to allow
the use of Synapse Accelerators *and* Enhanced Articulation
WITH the Increased Reflexes spell. Both are bioware and so
are made from the Mages own body. They aren't installed as
much as grown in place.)
As it is written at present the fastest a cyberless and
biowareless mage can react is 17 + 4 dice (average 31
initiative) while a Street Samurai maxes out at 25 + 4 dice
(average 39 initiative). This seems proper to me.
If Enhanced Articulation works with the spell it allows
the same mage to reach 18 + 4 dice (average 32 initiative).
If Synapse Accelerators do not count as Cyberware for the
purposes of the Increased Reflexes spell then that same mage
can reach a initiative of 18 + 6 dice (average 39
initiative)! And it is very hard to justify not allowing
the Increased Reflexes spell to be used in tandem with
bioware. Bioware, after all, being a part of the mages body
with some modification. These two aren't installed as much
as grown in place. Complicated, no?
If Boosted Reflexes do not count as cyberware then a
mage could have an initiative of 20 + 6 dice (average 41
initiative). Boosted Reflexes are an electro-chemical
modification to the body. Is it cyberware by the definition
in the Increased Reflexes spell?
There is, indeed, a cost to the mage. Boosted Reflexes
and Enhanced Articulation cost 3.4 essence and 4 magic while
Synapse Accelerators and Enhanced Articulation cost 2.2
essence and 3 magic. But if those items were put in by good
doctors at a Beta clinic then the Enhanced Articulation
costs only .36 essence and the Synapse Accelerators only
cost 1.28 for a total cost of 1.64 essence and 2 magic,
while the Boosted Reflexes costs 1.344 and the Enhanced
Articulation still costs .36 giving a total Essence cost of
1.704!
Am I correct in considering Synapse Accelerators,
Enhanced Articulation and Boosted Reflexes as Cyberware for
the purposes of the Increased Reflexes spell? This one is
causing some heartburn here. The rules are very clear
reguarding Wired Reflexes, pretty clear reguarding Boosted
Reflexes (though the status of Boosted Reflexes as cyberware
*can* be argued) and absolutely murky reguarding bioware.
In fact, by the strictest interpretation of the written
rules, bioware *does* work with the Increased Reflexes
spell. The spell description states that any form of
*cyberware* that adds reaction dice cannot be used with the
spell. Bioware is *not* cyber, as is made clear in the
Shadowtech book. Enhanced Articulation definitely does work
with the spell, no question there, it doesn't add dice.

-----

zIvy, again. . .
More responses to various posts.

To: Ben Jordan
Subj: Crunchy Gangs - I think not.
>1. Post snipers along a street they see you on. Hard to take
>out snipers. Particularly when they take you by suprise. No
>reaction test for that first shot really. Just a declaration
>"you have been shot, role to resist."

Snipers don't give a Reaction roll? I think not. SRII, page 89,
starting with the big bold words "Surprise". If your GM isn't
using these rules, you are being cheated.

Thanks for being able to see the light on the cybered vs
uncybered military question. All your points are accurate,
especially the ones about just who drives most research and gets
the benefits before everyone else.

Everyone else:
Subj: Cyber Military;
The desert incident of 90-91 was a great example of what happens
when an military (Iraq's in this case) isn't up to speed
technologically. All generals know "It CAN happen here" and they
do their best to prevent it, and intelligent (or scared) citizens
want them to. The worst value in the world is a "second best"
military.

Someone (Sorry, I can't find the post) said that the Army would
not spend money on cyber that they would "just have to remove
when the troopers term was done." just to make the cyber-troop
seem unfeasable. Think again. They would come up with a "fix"
such as removing some vital *pieces* maybe, but way more likely
is that they would simply put the person on life-long reserve
duty. They do that *now* y'see.

To: John Fox
re: Cyber-military
The example you quoted, that of the ex-military officer actually
prooves something else entirely. He proves that the designers
didn't have any military time or knowledge. Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0.
was written by people who were at least exposed to the military.
Take a look at their ideas for a glimpse of the a government
would really handle the situation of war and cyber.

The odds of a cyber-soldier having only two or three months of
training are zip. An infantryman now gets 6 months, it ain't
gonna get shorter. The odds of a Charly killing a cyber-grunt
approach nil. The extra speed really does tell. External
smartgun, etc makes for the "second best" army again.

To: Jason J. Carter
re: CrisZ's dice rolling system(?)
Thanks for posting the percentages, you saved me the time. That
"system" *was* a rather inaccurate idea!

re: Ram/Wrecker spells
Maybe you should re-read the rule book? I'm afraid that your
*first* interpretation of the operation of the Ram spell is a bit
out of line from the SRII rulebook. The Ram spell seems to have
been written to confuse, actually. Your *second* method would
work, but again, it is a long ways outside of the actual rules.

Thanks for the FASA errata from Ka-Ge though, I cannot afford the
magazine.

You and I agree on the process of targetting a spell from the
astral to the mundane through a casting mage. What a surprise
*that* can be!

re: Essence cost of Bioware. I calculated in the effect of a
Very Good doctor (x .8 Essence), per the Street Samurai Catalog.
Sorry, I should have mentioned that.

re: Clips vs Magazines.
Wrongo! High capacity weapons use *LINKED BELTS* for their ammo.
Clips are *only* used now-a-days when one is firing rimless
pistol ammo in revolvers. Revolvers headspace on the rim,
pistols headspace on the case mouth. The clip gives the effect
of having a rim on the cartridge so it may be fired in a
revolver. They come in "half-moons (hold 3 rounds) and "full-
circle" (hold 6 rounds).

Another interesting point, though a bit off the subject.
Caseless ammunition really cannot be used in revolvers. A
revolver cylinder is open at both ends and firing a caseless
round in one chamber would light off all the rest of the loads.
With only one barrel I think everyone can see the problem. . .

re: Karma pools
The rulebook *states* that 10%, rounded UP, (SRII, page 191, left
column, right under Karma Pool) of *every* karma award goes into
the karma pool. It also states that the rest, rounded UP, (SRII,
page 190, Right column, 5th paragraph) goes into the Good Karma
stock. That means that if you get 4 karma for a run (cheap GM,
maybe) you add one karma to your pool, and four to your Good
Karma.

John E. Doner
Re: Cyber-military
I agree. No matter how high-tech the weapon system is it can't
hold the ground. That part of the job has to be done by
infantry.

To: Aaron Wigley
Re: Cyber-military
The realities of the militaries are hard to get across. If one
hasn't *been* there one really can't understand. I, being a
woman, wasn't *supposed* to see combat, but no one ever cleared
that with charlie. I spent three days under fire, and shooting
back, in the 'nam and I have known a LOT of people who did it all
the time. Grunts, Special Forces, LRRPs, Chopper jocks. My ex-
husband was an Army Ranger, 3 1/2 tours in the 'Nam. In fact, I
met him there.

The day after the first cyberware was invented *every* army in
the world was obsolete and the next day every army that could,
meaning ALL of them, were cybering up. By 2053 they all had it.
Or were out of a job because of conquest. Ben Jordan described
the *real* life situation very well in his post (message 30/76)
on the subject, I shan't quote it, it's too long, but look it up!

As for the USAF SOC CCT "being there first", I think not! They
ain't even gonna BE in the places the LRRPs, Special Forces,
Rangers, Airborne, and Air Cavalry get into. Yeah, I knew a few
of them SOC CCTs too, but their job ain't the same. (Planting
beacons for smart bombs, and dumb pilots, ain't a picnic though,
I gotta give them credit.) The Spec. Forces had one job, the
LRRPs had another, the Rangers yet another, with the Airborne,
and the Line had the big one. Dunno about the SEALS, only place
I ever saw them was in the bars. Different service, y'see. My
friends, lovers, and "big brothers" were all Army.

The One group you really forgot was the Air Cav. The pilots
would *have* to be Riggers and the gunners wired to their pieces,
with at least Wired Reflexes 2. Helicopter gunnery makes for a
very fast war.
-----

Marzhavasati Kali |If mail bounces, check spelling. It's deirdre.
deirdre@***.org |If that doesn't work, send mail to
|deirdre%efn.org@*******.cs.uoregon.edu
"I prefer acid tripping over tripping while on acid."
-- Taffy S.

From:	Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Mon, 29 Nov 1993 16:18:16 -0500

Message no. 2 While we've got an expert 'on tap' (as it were): how likely is
caseless ammo to become common?

I've heard conflicting information on this; one side holds that it's
the natural development and should be all over the place in 2050. The
other side points out how many experiments and how little success (measured
in deployed weapon systems) caseless ammo has today, and suggests it
has non-obvious problems.

Any comments?
[I think it's pretty clear that all FASA's figures assume cased ammo,
which is one reason I'm interested in this.]

- cks

From:	"S. Keith Graham" <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Mon, 29 Nov 1993 20:11:43 -0500

Message no. 3 Its been a little while since I played SR, so excuse any
minor inconsistancies.. What I'm saying is applicable to
any cyberpunk genra, I hope.

>We just had this little exchange on the 'net. I would like to
>use it to point out a few things that I don't think most S'run
>GMs, or players, ever think of.

In a completely different vein, go read Steven Brust's _Jhereg_
series. As he points out, given a reasonable (for the target)
assain, anyone and everyone will go down, if the assain has time
to prepare, and no limits on when and how he can strike.

(And high tech toys and magic only increase the ways you can kill
someone.)

>>> [Use a suitcase nuke, or FAE, etc. to take out the building]

>The FIRST problem is the simplest. How do you find one, or four,
>little fish in the *huge* pond of a city? >FYI Seattle *claims*
>a population of 3,000,000, given the dynamics of poverty as
>demonstrated for the world in India, Argentina, and South Central
>L.A. it's actual population is very propably about 6 to 7 million
>with only about 2.75 million people actually *counted*!< Fish
>that don't have credit cards, legal licenses (for anything),
>addresses, legal phone numbers, or any other form of usable
>identification. Or, worse, they have identifications (in the
>case of Diamonds) under anything from two to eight different
>names depending on the day of the week.

Well, lesse.. The "official number" of people in Seattle is 2.75M.
If your world is different, cool. And you can probably get a pretty
good guess of how many people live there based on food consumption, etc.
Its not *that* hard. And not *that* many people live below the
poverty line (1/3?) and they want on the electronic rolls because
then they can get welfare, if they're not illegals (see L.A.).

And if you don't have money to buy a false identity, you have
to be registered (and countable), to even use money on a day
to day basis. (At least, that's how most worlds with "SINs" work.)

>The SECOND problem is just precisely how does the character make
>the search look so natural that no-one, of *many* friends they
>have helped, will call them and tell them that some 'people' are
>lookin' for them?

The meeting with a Mr. Johnson below is a possibility. So's decking, to
track usage of credit, etc. So's hanging out in interesting places,
waiting for you to wander by. Once you identify an alias or two,
you can probably trace the others down, given a couple of months.
Remember, we're not in a hurry here.

>The THIRD problem is that the character will probably be a bit
>noticable carting the explosives into UCAS-SEA don't y'think?
>The detection threshold is a '2' so they will get caught. Plus
>it will take, for an apartment block, an amount much closer to
>5,000 kilos. (C4 ain't a miracle cure for buildings, let alone
>for a *block* of them!) Or, of course, they can always try to
>buy them in SEA. With a high enough Etiquette-Street it can be
>done, and you might get enough successes to keep the seller from
>calling "a few friends" about the extremely odd sale too.
>Diamonds has *9* successes to find out if a buy like that goes
>down y'see.

Well, lesse...

5,000 kilos strikes me as an awful lot. Especially if its
placed right. I also seem to recall an explosive called
"C-40" in the SR universe, which is 10x as powerful as C-4.. And if
you pick something designed to take buildings, 250 kilos would probably
be plenty. And *that* could easily get smuggled in on a panzer.
(Heck, that's not much more than a troll masses. And people
get smuggled all the time.)

And you know, if Diamond is constantly checking to see who buys
explosives, then I'll bet his streetwise skills isn't going to
check who bought 500 gallons of kerosene, then is it? Or the
Laser? Or the TOWs? or.... You can't cover every angle
at once, and you are busy doing "other things" some of the time...

And if I have one friend that's a fixer, and he knows what you
keep an eye on, then I *know* you'll be prepared for those things,
so I'll pick something different. Or even get you informed of something,
so you'll be prepared for the wrong thing.

>The FOURTH problem, considering that you have found out where
>they slept last night, gotten to it, and got your explosives to
>it, is; Are there any traps, surveilance devices or other
>security on the area. If you did your homework you will know
>that you are dealing with from one to three hermetic mages and a
>pair of samurai-deckers.

Sure... You see the plane, right as the bomb leaves the cargo
door, going 700mph (same as the plane.) The FAE levels the block,
and your security cameras record it all, until they burn with the
rest of you.

Or the semi-truck on the road next door (which will carry
that 5000kg easily.)

Etc. etc. etc.

>The FIFTH problem is that where they slept last night is rarely
>where they will sleep the next.

And if you have that many places to hide, you won't have
"ideal" security on each one. (And/or you'll revisit them
pretty soon.) That much security takes money, effort, etc.

You can find out which security firms you've used based on
what you find in places you slept a week ago, and then track
you based on where you protect in the future.

And given this many locations, and a lot of other things to
do with your time, you *have* to hire other people to do some security
for you. (And you have to buy equipment from people, etc.)

>"So lure them to a fake meet." y'say. OK, the meet will be
>scouted astrally, and physically, before the meet. The place,
>and it's surroundings will be kept under physical and magical obs
>till the meet is over, and they will be dressed to survive a
>.50M2HB using *my* interpretation of them. (No single bit of
>armor heavier that an Armor Jacket, just layered per AGRL) They
>know that the average ranges of their usual detects (explosives,
>traps, enemies) is 360 meters and they plan accordingly. They
>will control all areas within that range that could conceal
>enemies and deny all areas outside of it. They *are* used to
>"line-of-sight" and it's effects. Watcher and bound spirits are
>a great way to deny an area. Either the watcher pops up yelling
>and waving, and Diamonds adds a grenade, or the elemental eats
>the person trying to hide there. Both have happened.

So you use indirect fire weapons. With decent cyberwear,
and a radio-transponder on myself, I can guide a 155mm
round from *way* beyond 0.3km to nail you right on the head.
(You're ex-military, right? Spotters and Artillery are *wonderful*)

By the 2040's, a small guided, hyper-sonic rocket with
enough smarts to target a face, that takes its position
relative to a radio-transponder will probably be feasible.
(Not cheap, mind you, but feasible.) At Mach 3.5, your
360m doesn't give you a lot of room. Just tell the launcher
you're standing 2m away, at 46 degrees from N, and "GO!".
You won't move much in the time it takes it to travel 1km.
(Realize that all its targeting is a given height and
a "blob". It is mostly going for a fixed location, which is
already pretty easy. It really don't need to go for the face,
but that guarantees bypassing armor.)

And the person doing the targeting might not even know when
the launch would occur (or that it will occur), so you can't
read his mind. He just has to do an uplink from his
cybereye.

Or you use things that aren't weapons, but that could take
you out (immobilize you.) Some of them don't appear to
be "traps", at least, not more than any other thing in the
environment.

(You know, that sewage pipe underground.. its the same as all
the rest, until you have someone in the bldg next door flush
a certain chemical, which mixes with what's coming from the
industrial plant down the street, which blows up under your
feet, etc.)

>So while did I write up this "brag file" y'ask? Because if any
>oppo of a team doesn't have at least that heavy security then the
>GM isn't doing her job. These P.C.s are a bit O.T.T. but not
>much at all. Most suits would sleep most nights in the same
>place, but they would also have *armed* guards and *more*
>security too.

Sure, its reasonable security, but then, people have been killed
from several kilometers away with a sniper shot to the head.
You can't always be safe is someone *really* wants you.

And if you use this kind of security on every meeting, and on
every building, then I *will* assemble some kind of team/method
that bypasses it. And I can hire you to do 2 or 3 legitimate
jobs, and watch your "SOP" for a meet. And you have little room
to object to a mage making sure all those spells you're throwing
around are harmless and, at the same time, he can inform me
of what you have up at the various meetings.

If everyone knows you use a given tactic, its useless, because
everyone will prepare for it.

So try other things, like sending someone that you can "remote".
You get a realtime uplink of what he's hearing/seeing, and you
tell him what to say. He gets a cut of the nuyen, but isn't in
on the hit. If he doesn't mind (or can't mind <grin>) you give
him a drug that kills short term memory, so he doesn't remember
anything about it. If he gets killed, "oh well".

Have a courier deliver a codebook you use to talk with, through
the personals. Then work through deposits in "Swiss accounts",
and "briefcases in bus station lockers" (so to speak.) After your
first encounter (where you may establish some trust), you
may never meet face to face again.

There's lots better ways than brute force to skin a cat.

>Players, you should be looking for everything on this list when
>you go to the john in a strange place, let alone when you try to
>make a hit on a suit or another runner.

You don't need half these protections when making a hit. And
you just need some creativity to meet a john. (That much
activity when making a hit would draw too much attention, and
you *expect* the John to have some magic protections up, etc.)

>Oh, yes, SEA *is* the kind of place where a member of your group
>will kill you for the reward on your head. If you've bought a
>'buddy' *then* and **ONLY** then do you have someone you can
>trust. If the game is being GM'd correctly, that is. London,
>Berlin, Sydney, Tokyo, Singapore, Paris. They should be the same
>in those respects, or the GM should maybe go back to AD&D.

How do you "buy" a buddy? You mean in character creation?
Who says he won't sell you out for the right things? This
is a place where *everyone* will sell you out. Your character
doesn't know that "well, I paid 100k nuyen to make sure
this guy would never sell me out." If you want to have
henchmen, go back to AD&D. If you want a *very* friendly
NPC, then buy a buddy. But he's still got his own goals in life.

>COP Package
>The Total is 5.94 Essence. It would be a little
>expensive but it would save a lot on medical bills and
>infrastructure costs. Cost, with volume discount, 263,000nY

Medical bills?? yeah right... 5.94 essence??? 263knY??
How long is his contract for? (Cops make what, 10k/year? let
them pay off their equipment with a bonus 5k/year?? That
won't even pay the *interest* on the gear, let alone
maintenance or depreciation. Interest, depreciation, and
maintenance could easily run 50k/year. (Figuring 10% interest,
10 year depreciation schedule, etc.))

(As I recall, and I might be wrong, 10k/year is high middle
class.. which is about where a Cop would probably be..
I may be confusing this with one of the other Cyberpunk
games, but I don't think so...

Note this is also more than the infantry package costs.)

>INFANTRY (Regular Army) Package
>Wired Reflexes 2, Smartlink, Orientation System, Lo-lite,
>Thermographics, Electronic Magnification 3, Rangefinder, Flare
>Compensation, Level Damper, Radio with Encryption 8. Plus Full
>Spectrum Immunity to diseases. The Total is 3.996 Essence
>rounded up to a full 4 Essence. Cost, with volume discount,
>243,000nY. This is less than the cost of two current-day TOW
>missiles, without the launcher. A division of these soldiers
>could easily defeat an army of normal soldiers. And, as I said
>before, the most expensive thing in the world is a second best
>army.

Are you equating 1nY=1$?

And don't forget that as soldiers get wounded, this wonderful
equipment gets damaged...

I will buy that everyone (at least in SR1, I haven't looked at
SR2 much) will buy Smartlinks. Maybe even low levels of
wiring. Most of the rest of the stuff you have listed is
available as external gear, and I'd expect people to use that,
rather than the implants, for a "day job".

After all, when you can build the rangefinder into the gun,
why pay to have it installed in the person? And when
better rangefinders come along, its easier to upgrade.

>Infantry Non-Coms would have a Beta-ware package that would
>include a Tactical Computer 3. Figuring an Essence cost of 5 for
>the Tac-Comp the Total would be 5.064 (round to 5) Essence.

Non-coms are usually promoted from rank and file.. Do they
rip all the earlier stuff out? I doubt it....

I will buy that Cops get some Cyberwear. Mostly, or entirely,
things you can't "lug along". (i.e. Boosted reflexes.)

I would also expect that you'd have a "SWAT team" to deal
with heavy duty problems, as the average cop spends most
of his time writing traffic tickets, dealing with domestic
violence, etc. etc. Even a pair of wired cops aren't up to
dealing with a small gang with magic + some wiring. And
spending 250k per man, to write traffic tickets, is a waste.

"An infantryman's best weapon is his radio." Ditto the cops.
I would expect that cyberwear would be designed to extend the
livespan of a person in battle, rather than make him more
effective personally. (After all, its the artillery that has
historically done all the killing. The infantry are just there
to keep the other guys infantry from getting away.)

Now, I will buy that riggers in (real) Panzers, helocopters,
and fighters make a *huge* difference. I'll also buy that
front-line infantry are going to have some pretty heavy
duty cyberwear. But I think the infantry will end up specializing
more to save some $$$. Cheaper infantry will have a place,
because while your 250k trooper would be pretty good on the
front lines, he's not as effective as 5 guys with 40k of
gear at walking a picket line.

And I expect the ones with 250k of Cyberwear would be pretty
heavily specialized in their area. (Engineers, SEALs, recon,
strike, "heavy infantry to hold the line against attacks", etc.)
And their cyberwear would reflect that.

I also expect to see *lots* of things to keep soldiers in touch
with each other, and to help them work as a unit. Cyberpunk
is about individuals. The government would work install equipment
that allows an entire squad to integrate data, select targets, etc,
on nifty heads-up displays (either on a mask, or in a cybereye.)

And that kind of equipment doesn't help much if your civilian
sammy buddy isn't from the same branch (and maybe even outfit)
of the service. They also might buy smart-links that only
work with certain models of guns, radios and encryption that
can't talk to anyone else, not upgrade full-spectrum immunity
to cover new "pests", and buy bioware that degrades over time
if not "maintained" (through future re-implants.) All of these
save them money, and all of these leave you with soldiers that
aren't *that* scary after they are discharged. (Which can
be good from both a game balance and a "social balance" point
of view.)

Anyway, enough rambling for now.

Keith Graham
vapspcx@***.gatech.edu

From:	Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Mon, 29 Nov 1993 23:11:56 EST

Message no. 4 >>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 1993 16:18:16 -0500, Chris Siebenmann
>>>>> <cks@********.utcs.toronto.edu> said:

cks> While we've got an expert 'on tap' (as it were): how likely is
cks> caseless ammo to become common?

I give about 10 years for most of the world's armies to switch to caseless
ammunition. It'll be cheaper to manufacture, it takes up less volume in the
clip, and it has less mass per round.

cks> I've heard conflicting information on this; one side holds that it's
cks> the natural development and should be all over the place in 2050. The
cks> other side points out how many experiments and how little success
cks> (measured in deployed weapon systems) caseless ammo has today, and
cks> suggests it has non-obvious problems.

The only real problem is stability/flamability of the powder. Gun powder
doesn't stick very well, so it has to be "cut" with other materials to make
a block. The first materials used either made the powder burn so slow it
was useless, or burn too fast making it dangerous. I give about 5 years for
the stuff to reach a reasonable quality, and another 5 years for the world
to convert their armed forces over.

Currently there is only one weapon in production that uses caseless
ammunition. That's the H&K G11 rifle (I think that's the right one).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
PGP 2.x Public Key Block available upon request
GAT d@ -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m-(+) s n---(+) h-- f !g(+) w+ t- r+ y+
||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||
An it harm none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

From:	The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Mon, 29 Nov 1993 19:40:10 GMT

Message no. 5 > The FIRST problem is the simplest. How do you find one, or four,
> little fish in the *huge* pond of a city? >FYI Seattle *claims*

Everybody leaves trails off one kind or another. Watchers and Spirits are
good finding people especially if you use spirits with the search power.

Contacts, so your NPC went and bought a gun from a gun shop, it's gonna be
recorded on computer also the sqautter sat outside might have seen the NPC.

Gangs, are excellent for tracking people down. They have lots of street
contacts and in their patch of the city they know everyone who is anyone.
The more gangs you know the more of the city you can cover.

> The SECOND problem is just precisely how does the character make
> the search look so natural that no-one, of *many* friends they
> have helped, will call them and tell them that some 'people' are
> lookin' for them?

Bribery, though you have to be careful with that as the contact may still phone
up the hunted person to see if they have an offer as well. But Spirits as
I said are useful, also how about ritual sorcery. You get some skin
samples or something of personnel value to your hunted person and they can
use ritual sorcery.

> The FOURTH problem, considering that you have found out where
> they slept last night, gotten to it, and got your explosives to
> it, is; Are there any traps, surveilance devices or other
> security on the area. If you did your homework you will know
> that you are dealing with from one to three hermetic mages and a
> pair of samurai-deckers.

So the hunters have to be careful.

> The FIFTH problem is that where they slept last night is rarely
> where they will sleep the next.

So as you said set up the meet then hit everyone with some heavy duty nerve
gas. Your buddies wait outside range in chemsuits etc and sniper rifles to
catch anyone leaving in a hurry. Believe me, there's always a way.

> Oh, yes, SEA *is* the kind of place where a member of your group
> will kill you for the reward on your head. If you've bought a
> 'buddy' *then* and **ONLY** then do you have someone you can
> trust. If the game is being GM'd correctly, that is. London,
> Berlin, Sydney, Tokyo, Singapore, Paris. They should be the same
> in those respects, or the GM should maybe go back to AD&D.

Agreed.

> To all,
> Please comment;
> Subj: Increased Reflexes Spell and what works with it.
> 9. The Increased Reflexes Spell vs Reflex Booster
> Cyberware and Synapse Accelerator Bioware. Just precisely
> how are these two items regarded vis a vis the Increased
> Reflexes spell? Do they count as Cyberware? Do any of them
> work with the Increased Reflexes spell? Does Enhanced
> Articulation? (My thoughts are that none of them will work
> with the spell but, a very good case could be made to allow
> the use of Synapse Accelerators *and* Enhanced Articulation
> WITH the Increased Reflexes spell. Both are bioware and so
> are made from the Mages own body. They aren't installed as
> much as grown in place.)

Ok, first off bioware on a mage still loses that mage essence. Bit of a
sod but that's the way it is. The general ruling is that enhanced articulation
can be used with anything after all with regards to reaction it only gives a
+1 and no increase to initiativce dice. As to mixing initiative increase
devices it is generally frowned upon even if the rules do not say expicitly
for one particular combination that it is not allowed. So in my book you
get to use one only, generally the higher of the two.

> doctors at a Beta clinic then the Enhanced Articulation
> costs only .36 essence and the Synapse Accelerators only
> cost 1.28 for a total cost of 1.64 essence and 2 magic,

I didn't think there was such a thing as Beta bioware. I thought that clonal
was as good as you get.

> Am I correct in considering Synapse Accelerators,
> Enhanced Articulation and Boosted Reflexes as Cyberware for
> the purposes of the Increased Reflexes spell? This one is

Yeah, I would say so. FASA don't think of all the implications sometimes when
they release something, and you quite often find these loopholes, if you speak
to them (aparently) they get in a huff and say 'well it was never supposed to
read that'.

> Snipers don't give a Reaction roll? I think not. SRII, page 89,
> starting with the big bold words "Surprise". If your GM isn't
> using these rules, you are being cheated.

Yeah but you have to have a chance to see the sniper to be able to react per
the suprise rules. Let's face it even if you've had military training and
hit the floor every time you hear a gun shot the chances are that bullet has
hit you before you heard it. If the sniper is just some guy sat near his
window then how many people pay attention to that. Might as well get the GM
to describe every person you come into contact with just in case one may be
that gun wielding assasin who's been after you for the past 3 weeks but you're
not really sure what he looks like.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England
Land of the mad Geordies

From:	Joe McNulty <mcnultyj@****.JMB.COM>
Subject:	Re: Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1993 10:00:54 CST

Message no. 6 > So you use indirect fire weapons. With decent cyberwear,
> and a radio-transponder on myself, I can guide a 155mm
> round from *way* beyond 0.3km to nail you right on the head.
> (You're ex-military, right? Spotters and Artillery are *wonderful*)
>
> And the person doing the targeting might not even know when
> the launch would occur (or that it will occur), so you can't
> read his mind. He just has to do an uplink from his
> cybereye.
>

Well, how about having a cyber-eye replacement that is a Laser Targeter
<Don't know what they are really called> and "Paint" your target by
looking
at him, then signal the launch of the device from wherever and have it home
in on the laser. Hell, they did it in Desert Storm with special Forces in
dune buggy's, I'm sure the tech would be MUCH improved by 2050

Joe

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1993 01:54:02 +0930

Message no. 7 >
>> So you use indirect fire weapons. With decent cyberwear,
>> and a radio-transponder on myself, I can guide a 155mm
>> round from *way* beyond 0.3km to nail you right on the head.
>> (You're ex-military, right? Spotters and Artillery are *wonderful*)
>>
>> And the person doing the targeting might not even know when
>> the launch would occur (or that it will occur), so you can't
>> read his mind. He just has to do an uplink from his
>> cybereye.
>>
>
>Well, how about having a cyber-eye replacement that is a Laser Targeter
><Don't know what they are really called> and "Paint" your target by
looking
>at him, then signal the launch of the device from wherever and have it home
>in on the laser. Hell, they did it in Desert Storm with special Forces in
>dune buggy's, I'm sure the tech would be MUCH improved by 2050
>
>Joe
The trouble with laser designators is that they are "active", which means they
can be detected, and presumably traced. I understand modern tanks detect laser
targetters trained on them (at least, my M1A1 tank simulator does it. :)

Again, this tech would be much improved... So while still a good idea, I
wouldn't want to be the guy targetting it.

--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.

From:	Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1993 17:09:23 +22310502

Message no. 8 I like what you have said. I agree that most of the imaging equipment and
radios etcetra will be external. I think that wired and dermal are the way
to go with military types. Supply folks would have very little in
cyberware. Recon and commando types would be ungodly wizards that make Oz
look like a joke.

Cops are another matter. I don't see them writing tickets in Shadow Run.
They are security companies! The cost of cyberware is the cost of doing
busness. The provide the maintinance too, not the cop himself. No docking
pay for cyber enhancement, it is part of surviving. Would you rather have
cybered guys protecting your building or normals, knowing that the local
street gang can walk all over your protection any time they want to get at
you?

The military stuff I have proposed hinges on the fact that the military can
usually find a way to make what it needs cheaper than the corps can. The
have free resources (they are the only government left) and lots of money.
And as I said it is in the corp interest to have them around. Of course
they are hugely powerful, but they have to be. Shadow Run doesn't say that
the military are puppets of the corps. That implies that they have their
own supply lines and access to the most advance research as soon as it is
out. It is their job to be like that. If they do not they are useless
puppets and all the other corps are toasted by the one who controls the
local military might.
--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Military, Bioware, Bombs, & other stuff
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1993 00:01:40 -0600

Message no. 9 >Cops are another matter. I don't see them writing tickets in Shadow Run.
>They are security companies! The cost of cyberware is the cost of doing

Tickets are a major resource for some communities, like Monterey, CA. They
get it either through parking meters or fining the people who ignore them.
Also, speeding tickets can also be a source of revenue. . .people speed more
often than they maim, and catching speeders can lead to the arrest of
perpetrators wanted for other crimes.

>business. The provide the maintinance too, not the cop himself. No docking
>pay for cyber enhancement, it is part of surviving. Would you rather have
>cybered guys protecting your building or normals, knowing that the local
>street gang can walk all over your protection any time they want to get at
>you?

The cop doesn't pay? OK, I'm a cop, Lonestar puts 400 grand of cyber in me,
I either take leave or through some quirk of fate get a medical discharge
and now I have 400 grand of merchandise in my body that I didn't have to pay
for.

As for vybered protection, that ought to cost the client extra. Not all
clients need that much protection.

>The military stuff I have proposed hinges on the fact that the military can
>usually find a way to make what it needs cheaper than the corps can. The

Read the Pentagon Products Catalog. But also keep in mind that many of the
inflated prices are after paying various inspection/red tape agencies, and
not the cost of the item itself (though the nut that costs over $1000 *is*
ridiculous. I kid you not. They used it on the lunar lander. It even came
with beveled edges :)

>have free resources (they are the only government left) and lots of money.

See my prvious post. Money's tight, and so's the government.

>out. It is their job to be like that. If they do not they are useless
>puppets and all the other corps are toasted by the one who controls the
>local military might.

Some would postulate that the military and government are already like that.
And just because they don't say it in the rules doesn't mean it ain't
true. They don't say otherwise, either.

J Roberson

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