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Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Military Mighty-Bigs (was something about a question)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:47:20 EST
In a message dated 11/17/1999 6:11:16 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
arclight@*********.de writes:

> I don't see why the non-existance of the Stonewall answers the question
> which country has the biggest army. Sure, it would be an ace in the sleeve
> on
> the battlefield, but a strong military force depends on a lot more factors.

You are right in that the presence of a particular piece of hardware doesn't
define the overall military presence/ability of a particular entity/nation.
However, when so many people draw conclusions based upon only a few facts
with have no probable or basis of information other than an entry or two in
two sources of information, then wrongful directions are pursued.

Do I think that CAS possessed the most capable military out there? No. Do I
think they have a capable military. YES!!! Me personally, on the military
front, sticking with mostly Western Hemisphere SR here, is that Aztlan has
the most capable and probably largest overall military ... up to and
including submarines and small carrier(s?). CAS probably comes in third IMO.
UCAS is second. The problem with UCAS is that Ares is so FAR up their A$$
IMO, that its' hard to tell them apart. I also feel that Amazonia is a power
that causes Aztlan immense headaches on a far more frequent basis than CAS
ever does (too much rampant magic on both sides of that field, in addition to
literally droves of guerilla fighters).

Speaking globally now; most capable on a "per person" basis military?
Honestly, I would have to say Saeder-Kruppe. Are they the largest, by
quantity or manpower? No. But I would garner guesses that they probably
receive the best training and best management (and/or leadership) that exists.

I have little, if any, doubts that JIS/JMI (Japan) has the largest and/or
most capable navy as it stands. But I also think this is/was due to the all
the at-home corporate riches that were flowing around. That has been shaken
up considerably, and I do see Japan's naval power diminishing somewhat due to
economic attrition. That former US Navy was tore apart due to all the
political fights that broke out in the earlier part of the 21st Century in
the SR storyline, otherwise it would still be the victor here.

I truly do wish we had more information about military powers, but more so to
spur on the effects/thrills of "Border Crossings" or
"Cyberpirates-related"
games than for pure SR (*pure*, what a term), ie; "street level SR" games.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 2
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Military Mighty-Bigs (was something about a question)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:43:51 +0100
And finally, Ereskanti expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> You are right in that the presence of a particular piece of hardware
doesn't
> define the overall military presence/ability of a particular
entity/nation.
> However, when so many people draw conclusions based upon only a few facts
> with have no probable or basis of information other than an entry or two
in
> two sources of information, then wrongful directions are pursued.

Agreed. The overall problem is, though, that FASA has put
out almost no material covering this field (at least AFAIK).
So we have to mostly make guesses on this topic, enlightend by
the occasional posts from people like Jon Szeto a while ago.

> Do I think that CAS possessed the most capable military out there? No.
Do I
> think they have a capable military. YES!!! Me personally, on the
military
> front, sticking with mostly Western Hemisphere SR here, is that Aztlan
has
> the most capable and probably largest overall military ... up to and
> including submarines and small carrier(s?).

Not according to canon material IMO. Atzlan has a 200k personnel army,
the airforce is tailored towards defending the border. The only advantage,
at least in the long term, is that they have to fight a war atm. This
should
pace up their military technology and provide combat experience and
tactical
ops refinement for their troops.

> CAS probably comes in third IMO.
> UCAS is second. The problem with UCAS is that Ares is so FAR up their A$$
> IMO, that its' hard to tell them apart. I also feel that Amazonia is a
power
> that causes Aztlan immense headaches on a far more frequent basis than
CAS
> ever does (too much rampant magic on both sides of that field, in
addition to
> literally droves of guerilla fighters).

I would really like to see more info on amazonia...

> Speaking globally now; most capable on a "per person" basis military?
> Honestly, I would have to say Saeder-Kruppe. Are they the largest, by
> quantity or manpower? No. But I would garner guesses that they probably
> receive the best training and best management (and/or leadership) that
exists.

I don't think so. GitS says that S-K maintains a "battalion-level
armed force" worldwide, which I read as one battalion of troops. Although
they could deal out a lot of damage with their supposed level of
technology,
it is nowhere near a capable force. Granted, they can call MET2000, but
can get in conflict with ARES and other megacorps when doing so.

> I have little, if any, doubts that JIS/JMI (Japan) has the largest and/or
> most capable navy as it stands. But I also think this is/was due to the
all
> the at-home corporate riches that were flowing around. That has been
shaken
> up considerably, and I do see Japan's naval power diminishing somewhat
due to
> economic attrition. That former US Navy was tore apart due to all the
> political fights that broke out in the earlier part of the 21st Century
in
> the SR storyline, otherwise it would still be the victor here.

When comparing the available canon information with Jon Szeto's post,
JIS only rules the pacifik because the UCAS have problems accessing it.
They
have the same number of carrier groups, but the UCAS lacks (sp?) Pearl
harbor
to operate from. JIS can use the Philippines and the San Francisco area.

> I truly do wish we had more information about military powers, but more
so to
> spur on the effects/thrills of "Border Crossings" or
"Cyberpirates-related"
> games than for pure SR (*pure*, what a term), ie; "street level
> SR" games.

I second that :)

arclight
Message no. 3
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Military Mighty-Bigs (was something about a question)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:18:31 EST
In a message dated 11/18/1999 5:44:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
arclight@*********.de writes:

> When comparing the available canon information with Jon Szeto's post,
> JIS only rules the pacifik because the UCAS have problems accessing it.
> They
> have the same number of carrier groups, but the UCAS lacks (sp?) Pearl
> harbor
> to operate from. JIS can use the Philippines and the San Francisco area.

In words of one sylababble... HUH?

When did the UCAS loose Hawaii? To be blunt, I don't remeber anything like
that being mentioned in 'How it came to pass".. What page was that mentioned
on?

If it is true, however, The UCAS out of anyone has possibly LESS reason to
keep a larger standing navy than anyone. Only about 20% of their border is
water, whereas it was like 70%+ before. In fact, given the current borders,
the only body of water that the UCAS could put a sustainable show of force
into would be the Atlantic. The only piece of the UCAS that touches the
Pacific would be the Seattle Plex, and given the topography there, is well
suited for a 'puddle pirate' port defense.

If the UCAS did NOT loose Hawaaii, however, one, they still have the fleet
base in Pearl, and two, they have a very vested interest in keeping the
Pacific free for navigation because almost everything that hawaaii needs
comes in by boat...

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 4
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: Military Mighty-Bigs (was something about a question)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:14:59 -0800
From: Starrngr@***.com

> When did the UCAS loose Hawaii? To be blunt, I don't remeber
> anything like that being mentioned in 'How it came to pass"..
> What page was that mentioned on?

Paradise Lost. There is a section in the book that tells the
story behind the independence of Hawaii. Basically it involved
a lot of clever manoeuvring by the king, getting support from
Japan, while managing to stay independent afterwards. IIRC it
also involved some Thor missiles being shot in front of a UCAS
carrier as a "back off" warning shot.

I think that this should have gone into an adventure book, but
then again the adventure was short and I guess they needed some
filling material.


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44
Message no. 5
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Military Mighty-Bigs (was something about a question)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:28:43 -0500
> > When did the UCAS loose Hawaii? To be blunt, I don't remeber
> > anything like that being mentioned in 'How it came to pass"..
> > What page was that mentioned on?
>
> Paradise Lost. There is a section in the book that tells the
> story behind the independence of Hawaii. Basically it involved
> a lot of clever manoeuvring by the king, getting support from
> Japan, while managing to stay independent afterwards. IIRC it
> also involved some Thor missiles being shot in front of a UCAS
> carrier as a "back off" warning shot.

House of the Sun, of course, contains the THOR incident. Heh.
Message no. 6
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Military Mighty-Bigs (was something about a question)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:31:01 +0000
In article <0.d3fe5b0a.25658ee7@***.com>, Starrngr@***.com writes
>In words of one sylababble... HUH?
>
> When did the UCAS loose Hawaii?

August 2017.

>If it is true, however, The UCAS out of anyone has possibly LESS reason to
>keep a larger standing navy than anyone. Only about 20% of their border is
>water, whereas it was like 70%+ before. In fact, given the current borders,
>the only body of water that the UCAS could put a sustainable show of force
>into would be the Atlantic. The only piece of the UCAS that touches the
>Pacific would be the Seattle Plex, and given the topography there, is well
>suited for a 'puddle pirate' port defense.

On the other hand, it makes Seattle a vital gateway to North America for
most of the Pacific nations, and a _lot_ of trade would cross the Pacific
then as now. Which is why, perhaps, at least one full CVBG is based in
Everett.

The UCAS and Imperial Japan, between them, control the Pacific as far as
can be told.

>If the UCAS did NOT loose Hawaaii, however, one, they still have the fleet
>base in Pearl, and two, they have a very vested interest in keeping the
>Pacific free for navigation because almost everything that hawaaii needs
>comes in by boat...

Anything that the UCAS wants from Japan, Australasia, China or the Far
East has to come to Seattle. Anything they want to export to that region
leaves from Seattle.

That by itself is incentive to keep the Pacific Fleet in existence.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 7
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Military Mighty-Bigs (was something about a question)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:59:06 EST
In a message dated 11/18/1999 1:49:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
v-marts@*********.com writes:

> > When did the UCAS loose Hawaii? To be blunt, I don't remeber
> > anything like that being mentioned in 'How it came to pass"..
> > What page was that mentioned on?
>
> Paradise Lost. There is a section in the book that tells the
> story behind the independence of Hawaii. Basically it involved
> a lot of clever manoeuvring by the king, getting support from
> Japan, while managing to stay independent afterwards. IIRC it
> also involved some Thor missiles being shot in front of a UCAS
> carrier as a "back off" warning shot.
>
The information can also be found in the novel "House of the Sun".

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

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