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Message no. 1
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:12:41 -0800
I'm slowly getting a little draft military supplement in order. Before I go
too much farther I'd like to gouge what you all think of some of the
assumptions and decisions I'm making:

SKILLS
There are two ways to handle this, which one do you think best fits a
"player-centric" military background?

A: Templates
This seems to be popular nowadays and would be the most compatible with
base Shadowrun. In essence it's simply a set of skills that the player MUST
buy in order to qualify for the military service and branch of his choice.
Base attribute requirements also come into play of course. But generally you
just pick what you want, pay the points and that's it - you can be an
officer or an enlisted if you pay the points.

B. Lifepath
This is what I would like to do, but it has the least base compatibility
with the rest of the system. In short it would work like Twilight: 2000 and
Traveller. You enlist in the military branch (also having to pass an
Attribute Test or two) and then follow your character through his career,
gaining skills and the like at each step. The difference of course is that
the skills are much more regimented and subject to GM fiat. After all, that
Army officer would have very little time to somehow pick up any surgery
skills if he's serving overseas in an fifth-world hellhole.

I'm thinking the template system would be the most popular, and I can't
really argue much with it since it works just fine if the players don't want
to REALLY get into their military background.

MILITARY ORGANIZATIONS
I think I can competently get a handle on the UCAS military at least, but
there is frankly so little information on other Shadowrun militaries any
detail is speculative at the very best. Should I just give general
organization, tactics, and structure to the various armies? Should I just
worry about the NorthAm continent?
At the moment I'm thinking of about two pages or so (with sidebars) for
each military:
1) UCAS
2) CAS
3) Tir Tairgire
4) Various NAN Nations
5) Atzlan
6) California Free State

Obvously I won't be getting into obscene detail here, just touching on the
outlines.

GRAPHICS
Would a map showing locations of military bases and facilities be useful?
After all, how many people REALLY know where Quantico is hmm? It's not
rocket science to provide fairly decent graphics of this sort, as well as
speculative locations of troop concentrations and naval forces (I'm going to
go completely with John and Pauls suggestions for naval stuff).

EQUIPMENT
WITHOUT going into things like armored vehicles and carriers, would anyone
care about standard military equipment, at least general stuff like MREs and
the kind of stuff the average grunt uses? By this I nmean things like combat
boots, smocks, cammies (BDUs for you "Other" branches) and other stuff you
get as your 782 issue (dunno what the other branches call it).

VIGNETTES
I'm an ok writer, but would little vignettes at the beginning of each
section be interesting or worthless trash you would not print so your
ugliest dog could sit on it? For examples of my writing I'm afraid you'll
have to download some e-zines for the NetEpic e-zine "Incoming!"
(http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1353/epicentre.html)

MASS COMBAT/TACTICAL SYSTEM
I have something of a "mass combat" or so-called" quick and dirty"
system
for SR combat. Work has also begun on updating DMZ for SR3 (which will
essentially make it a totally new game). Would that sort of material be
interesting to see?
I'm also interested in if people would like to see this as a miniatures
system. I have plenty of experience with miniature games...

HISTORY
Would capsule breakdowns of the EuroWars and the Ghost Dance War be
interesting? In particular if they were slanted towards alternate settings
for games? Would background on other regional conflicts be worth
reprinting/modifying for inclusion? In particular the Tir/Cali war and the
CAS/Atzlan conflict?

FINIS?
I don't want a dry technical manual, and I really could care less about
describing every little aspect of military culture. That being said what do
YOU think a gamemaster would like to see in integrating military characters
or for players wanting more detail for their own characters backgrounds?
Listings of wars? Gear? Slang? How to make realistic looking INTSUMS and
reports? REALISTIC looks at security levels? What?


Thanks in advance for your time!

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 2
From: Tony Rabiola argent1@****.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:30:17 -0600
> I'm slowly getting a little draft military supplement in order.
Before I go
> too much farther I'd like to gouge what you all think of some
of the
> assumptions and decisions I'm making:
>

for whatever they're worth, here's my thoughts, ken.

> SKILLS
> There are two ways to handle this, which one do you think best
fits a
> "player-centric" military background?
>
> A: Templates
> This seems to be popular nowadays and would be the most
compatible with
> base Shadowrun. In essence it's simply a set of skills that the
player MUST
> buy in order to qualify for the military service and branch of
his choice.
> Base attribute requirements also come into play of course. But
generally you
> just pick what you want, pay the points and that's it - you can
be an
> officer or an enlisted if you pay the points.
>
> B. Lifepath
> This is what I would like to do, but it has the least base
compatibility
> with the rest of the system. In short it would work like
Twilight: 2000 and
> Traveller. You enlist in the military branch (also having to
pass an
> Attribute Test or two) and then follow your character through
his career,
> gaining skills and the like at each step. The difference of
course is that
> the skills are much more regimented and subject to GM fiat.
After all, that
> Army officer would have very little time to somehow pick up any
surgery
> skills if he's serving overseas in an fifth-world hellhole.
>
> I'm thinking the template system would be the most popular, and
I can't
> really argue much with it since it works just fine if the
players don't want
> to REALLY get into their military background.
>

honestly, i can see both of these being of benefit. the life
path to flesh out the military career, and a few examples for
those that don't want to do all that, just some generic examples
of different types. i really like the life path from those
other games....

> MILITARY ORGANIZATIONS
> I think I can competently get a handle on the UCAS military
at least, but
> there is frankly so little information on other Shadowrun
militaries any
> detail is speculative at the very best. Should I just give
general
> organization, tactics, and structure to the various armies?
Should I just
> worry about the NorthAm continent?
> At the moment I'm thinking of about two pages or so (with
sidebars) for
> each military:
> 1) UCAS
> 2) CAS
> 3) Tir Tairgire
> 4) Various NAN Nations
> 5) Atzlan
> 6) California Free State
>
> Obvously I won't be getting into obscene detail here, just
touching on the
> outlines.
>

probably sufficient. going to outline the JIS forces in the CFS
as well? other than that, the rest should be able to be
extrapolated from there, if needed.

> GRAPHICS
> Would a map showing locations of military bases and
facilities be useful?
> After all, how many people REALLY know where Quantico is hmm?
It's not
> rocket science to provide fairly decent graphics of this sort,
as well as
> speculative locations of troop concentrations and naval forces
(I'm going to
> go completely with John and Pauls suggestions for naval stuff).
>

i think showing the major bases of the various nations of the NA
continent would be of some benefit. what about the rest of the
world? going to point out some of the larger ones around the
globe?

> EQUIPMENT
> WITHOUT going into things like armored vehicles and carriers,
would anyone
> care about standard military equipment, at least general stuff
like MREs and
> the kind of stuff the average grunt uses? By this I nmean
things like combat
> boots, smocks, cammies (BDUs for you "Other" branches) and
other stuff you
> get as your 782 issue (dunno what the other branches call it).
>

yep...for us non-military types, might be handy....

> VIGNETTES
> I'm an ok writer, but would little vignettes at the beginning
of each
> section be interesting or worthless trash you would not print
so your
> ugliest dog could sit on it? For examples of my writing I'm
afraid you'll
> have to download some e-zines for the NetEpic e-zine
"Incoming!"
> (http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1353/epicentre.html)
>

i like a bit of fiction to break things up and give some
clarification about things being discussed.

> MASS COMBAT/TACTICAL SYSTEM
> I have something of a "mass combat" or so-called" quick and
dirty" system
> for SR combat. Work has also begun on updating DMZ for SR3
(which will
> essentially make it a totally new game). Would that sort of
material be
> interesting to see?
> I'm also interested in if people would like to see this as a
miniatures
> system. I have plenty of experience with miniature games...
>

i'm for the quick and dirty, just to determine how things might
go in a skirmish with plenty of PC/NPC's involved. i'd like to
see the DMZ update as well...

> HISTORY
> Would capsule breakdowns of the EuroWars and the Ghost Dance
War be
> interesting? In particular if they were slanted towards
alternate settings
> for games? Would background on other regional conflicts be
worth
> reprinting/modifying for inclusion? In particular the Tir/Cali
war and the
> CAS/Atzlan conflict?
>

yes on all counts! would give GM's the big, overall picture and
allow them to bring PC's into fringes of those conflicts.

> FINIS?
> I don't want a dry technical manual, and I really could care
less about
> describing every little aspect of military culture. That being
said what do
> YOU think a gamemaster would like to see in integrating
military characters
> or for players wanting more detail for their own characters
backgrounds?
> Listings of wars? Gear? Slang? How to make realistic looking
INTSUMS and
> reports? REALISTIC looks at security levels? What?
>

something for the GM to use as a game aid, and provide background
to the game and ex-military alike...history is good. slang is of
marginal use, but good for flavor. a look at security levels
would be helpful, don't think the intsums would be of as much
use, though.

all in all some good ideas...i've enjoyed your input on the
discussions on the list concerning this stuff.

Argent
"What fools these mortals be...."
Message no. 3
From: Guru gburus@***.univ.szczecin.pl
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:45:27 +0100 (MET)
On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Tzeentch wrote:

> : I'm slowly getting a little draft military supplement in order. Before I go
> : too much farther I'd like to gouge what you all think of some of the
> : assumptions and decisions I'm making:
> :
> : SKILLS
> : There are two ways to handle this, which one do you think best fits a
> : "player-centric" military background?
> :
> : A: Templates
> : This seems to be popular nowadays and would be the most compatible with
> : base Shadowrun. In essence it's simply a set of skills that the player MUST
> : buy in order to qualify for the military service and branch of his choice.
> : Base attribute requirements also come into play of course. But generally you
> : just pick what you want, pay the points and that's it - you can be an
> : officer or an enlisted if you pay the points.
Thgis option seems the most reasonable, as you said, it is compatible
with canon and quite realistic. Hey man, either you are learning and
still having a job or you loose it (translating: either you buy skills or
quit military).

[MIGHTY cut]

> : MILITARY ORGANIZATIONS
> : I think I can competently get a handle on the UCAS military at least, but
> : there is frankly so little information on other Shadowrun militaries any
> : detail is speculative at the very best. Should I just give general
> : organization, tactics, and structure to the various armies? Should I just
> : worry about the NorthAm continent?
> : At the moment I'm thinking of about two pages or so (with sidebars) for
> : each military:
> : 1) UCAS
> : 2) CAS
> : 3) Tir Tairgire
> : 4) Various NAN Nations
> : 5) Atzlan
> : 6) California Free State
What about European nations?


> : GRAPHICS
> : Would a map showing locations of military bases and facilities be useful?
> : After all, how many people REALLY know where Quantico is hmm? It's not
> : rocket science to provide fairly decent graphics of this sort, as well as
> : speculative locations of troop concentrations and naval forces (I'm going to
> : go completely with John and Pauls suggestions for naval stuff).
yes and yes, but should be careful (military doesn't like their precious
secrets getting wide known), and it should include some false
information, gossip and rumors.

> : EQUIPMENT
> : WITHOUT going into things like armored vehicles and carriers, would anyone
> : care about standard military equipment, at least general stuff like MREs and
> : the kind of stuff the average grunt uses? By this I nmean things like combat
> : boots, smocks, cammies (BDUs for you "Other" branches) and other stuff
you
> : get as your 782 issue (dunno what the other branches call it).
I guess it would be military book, so you should include this stuff.
Besides, it is quite shadowrun-closely-related, IMHO.

[cut]
> :
> : MASS COMBAT/TACTICAL SYSTEM
> : I have something of a "mass combat" or so-called" quick and
dirty" system
> : for SR combat. Work has also begun on updating DMZ for SR3 (which will
> : essentially make it a totally new game). Would that sort of material be
> : interesting to see?
> : I'm also interested in if people would like to see this as a miniatures
> : system. I have plenty of experience with miniature games...
this would be quite useful. Sorta GURPS mass combat system. ;)

> : HISTORY
> : Would capsule breakdowns of the EuroWars and the Ghost Dance War be
> : interesting? In particular if they were slanted towards alternate settings
> : for games? Would background on other regional conflicts be worth
> : reprinting/modifying for inclusion? In particular the Tir/Cali war and the
> : CAS/Atzlan conflict?
Maybe short timeline, major events, battles and conflicts listed, the
geographically sorted military history.


> : FINIS?
> : I don't want a dry technical manual, and I really could care less about
> : describing every little aspect of military culture. That being said what do
> : YOU think a gamemaster would like to see in integrating military characters
> : or for players wanting more detail for their own characters backgrounds?
> : Listings of wars?
+++
> : Gear?
only this strictly military stuff, there is plenty of 'normal'
shadowrunning gear.
> : Slang?
Sounds good, especially after your post on SRN.
[cut]


> : Thanks in advance for your time!
You're welcome :)
> : Ken

--
Best regards
Guru

This site is about Shadowrun RPG
http://www.stuco.uni-oldenburg.de/~james
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:08:15 +0100
According to Tzeentch, at 22:12 on 21 Feb 00, the word on the street
was...

> A: Templates
> This seems to be popular nowadays and would be the most compatible with
> base Shadowrun. In essence it's simply a set of skills that the player MUST
> buy in order to qualify for the military service and branch of his choice.
> Base attribute requirements also come into play of course. But generally you
> just pick what you want, pay the points and that's it - you can be an
> officer or an enlisted if you pay the points.

This is the one I'd go for. Plugging a T2K-like character generation
system into SR might work, but you have to really do your best to make it,
I expect. It's much simpler to list required skills and levels for various
things, so players can see what they need and how many points they've got
left to spend on other stuff. (For an example of this, see the Pee Cee
Cops article in NERPS: Underworld.)

> EQUIPMENT
> WITHOUT going into things like armored vehicles and carriers, would anyone
> care about standard military equipment, at least general stuff like MREs and
> the kind of stuff the average grunt uses? By this I nmean things like combat
> boots, smocks, cammies (BDUs for you "Other" branches) and other stuff you
> get as your 782 issue (dunno what the other branches call it).

That would be a very good idea, IMHO. Many people who'll be reading this
supplement will only know what soldiers carry and wear from watching
movies and TV shows, so a short list of the main gear would be very handy.
You wouldn't even need game stats (except weight) for most of them.

> VIGNETTES
> I'm an ok writer, but would little vignettes at the beginning of each
> section be interesting or worthless trash you would not print so your
> ugliest dog could sit on it? For examples of my writing I'm afraid you'll
> have to download some e-zines for the NetEpic e-zine "Incoming!"
> (http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1353/epicentre.html)

Fiction is never one of my favorite things in RPG books. I thought that
with "vignettes" you meant illustrations, which is something I would like
to see.

> HISTORY
> Would capsule breakdowns of the EuroWars and the Ghost Dance War be
> interesting? In particular if they were slanted towards alternate settings
> for games? Would background on other regional conflicts be worth
> reprinting/modifying for inclusion? In particular the Tir/Cali war and the
> CAS/Atzlan conflict?

Sure. If nothing else than a kind of overview of the wars of the 21st
century, it would be useful to provide some background to the main part of
the book.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm talking to strangers to see what I feel
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: DragonC147@***.com DragonC147@***.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:40:02 EST
I think that the outline you put up would work great. I run a military
campaign and it would be nice to get another viewpoint on military things.
Also, Quantico is in Virginia and is the FBI training center, and a Marine
Training Center. and what are the "Other" branches, in regards to BDU's?

Dragon Claw
Message no. 6
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:21:14 EST
"Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net> wrote,

> I'm slowly getting a little draft military supplement in order. Before I go
> too much farther I'd like to gouge what you all think of some of the
> assumptions and decisions I'm making:

Question: were you thinking of doing this as a netbook, or as an actual
published sourcebook? Just curious.

> SKILLS
> There are two ways to handle this, which one do you think best fits a
> "player-centric" military background?

Here we run into our first problem: player-centric.

Now, I've got nothing against giving the players what they want; it's
just that gamers have a tendency to want an eclectic, diverse variety of
things.

This tends to run afoul of standard military organization; you and I
both know that at the squad level, one soldier is just about the same as
another. Oh sure, one may carry the 203, another is combat-lifesaver
certified, etc., but on the whole they're more or less the SAME. In the
Shadowrun world you have a little more diversity --- one may be an ork,
another might have a LITTLE cyberware (with emphasis on "little"),
another MIGHT (just might, maybe, if the GM is generous) a latent
magician who slipped through the cracks. But by and large, in the
overall picture, they're all still GRUNTS.

Sure, there are military units that tend to have a diverse composition,
as diverse as a shadowrunner team. Thing is, just about all of these are
special forces or other special ops team. Of course, all SpecOps really
means is that they do things that are, well, unconventional for military
forces: from glamorous stuff like covert ops to boring stuff like Civil
Affairs. Still, SpecOps is a loaded word among gamers.

I'm not telling you that you should tell players what they can and can't
play; gamers are notorious for NOT doing what's expected. I'm just
saying you should be prepared for this and react accordingly.

> B. Lifepath
> This is what I would like to do, but it has the least base compatibility
> with the rest of the system. In short it would work like Twilight: 2000 and
> Traveller. You enlist in the military branch (also having to pass an
> Attribute Test or two) and then follow your character through his career,
> gaining skills and the like at each step. The difference of course is that
> the skills are much more regimented and subject to GM fiat. After all, that
> Army officer would have very little time to somehow pick up any surgery
> skills if he's serving overseas in an fifth-world hellhole.

There are a few problems I see with the Lifepath:

(1) While it's a nice idea, lifepaths tend to be somewhat narrow in
their focus. This kind of runs against the grain of Shadowrun, which is
somewhat diverse in the kinds of characters allowed. (Anyone remember
the Rocker and Tribesman archetypes?) While something like this would
work in a narrowly focused campaign, like a military one, I see it hard
to export outside of that. As such, I don't see it as a viable
alternative to either the Priority-based or point-based systems already
in place.

(2) Lifepaths are very text-intensive. I was playtesting MechWarrior 3rd
edition last year, which also used a lifepath character generation
system. I think we spent a disproportionate amount of time fiddling
around with that than with anything else.

This may not be an issue if you're doing this for a netbook. However,
for a publication, space is going to be at a premium. The Character
generation rules for MW 3 took up over 40 pages --- about 1/4 the size
of Corp Download.

(3) On the whole, Lifepaths are very detail-oriented and would fit well
into a "high-resolution" game system like Twilight 2K. On the other
hand, IMHO Shadowrun is a very "low-resolution" system. The standard
range of ratings and stats tends generally to fall in between 1 to 10.
It would seem to me to be difficult to reconcile the two. (Not
impossible, but it would need some serious tweaking to work well.)

> MILITARY ORGANIZATIONS
> I think I can competently get a handle on the UCAS military at least, but
> there is frankly so little information on other Shadowrun militaries any
> detail is speculative at the very best. Should I just give general
> organization, tactics, and structure to the various armies? Should I just
> worry about the NorthAm continent?

I would think that getting into any sort of detail about organization
and operations beyond the company level (battalion level, if we wanted
to be REALLY generous) would be over the heads of most gamers. (I could
be wrong.) Nor would most gamers care, I think, other than about general
information (how many divisions the UCAS has, how many carriers Imperial
Japan has, which corps have nukes, the effects of magic, general
strategic trends, and so on).

> GRAPHICS
> Would a map showing locations of military bases and facilities be useful?
> After all, how many people REALLY know where Quantico is hmm? It's not
> rocket science to provide fairly decent graphics of this sort, as well as
> speculative locations of troop concentrations and naval forces (I'm going to
> go completely with John and Pauls suggestions for naval stuff).

I have the 1991 edition of the Guide to Military Installations, which
lists over 300 US military posts in all four services, both in the US
and abroad. Granted, some of them have closed since then, and many would
be of little or no interest to gamers. (Who really cares what goes on at
the Redstone Arsenal? Which, BTW, is nothing more than a glorified
electronics repair shop. QED.)

Still, that is a lot of bases to cover, if you'll pardon the pun.

> EQUIPMENT
> WITHOUT going into things like armored vehicles and carriers, would anyone
> care about standard military equipment, at least general stuff like MREs and
> the kind of stuff the average grunt uses? By this I nmean things like combat
> boots, smocks, cammies (BDUs for you "Other" branches) and other stuff you
> get as your 782 issue (dunno what the other branches call it).

How would this be different from what's already been published in
previous books? And other than "name brand recognition," why should I,
as a player or gamemaster, care?

> HISTORY
> Would capsule breakdowns of the EuroWars and the Ghost Dance War be
> interesting? In particular if they were slanted towards alternate settings
> for games? Would background on other regional conflicts be worth
> reprinting/modifying for inclusion? In particular the Tir/Cali war and the
> CAS/Atzlan conflict?

Just be prepared to be nitpicked to death by all the military history
buffs. I have no problems with giving a once-over on "hotspots" and
"brushfire wars," though.

My $.02

-- Jon
Message no. 7
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:09:35 -0800
From: <JonSzeto@***.com>

--NETBOOK--

> Question: were you thinking of doing this as a netbook, or as an actual
> published sourcebook? Just curious.

I'm shooting for netbook at the moment. If I get a spark of enlightenment I
might make a proposal. If it's rejected I'll release it as a netbook. I've
not really started so I don't know, not a huge market swelling for military
Shadowrun books AFAIK or FASA would have followed up on Fields of Fire
(yikes!).

> > SKILLS
> > There are two ways to handle this, which one do you think best fits a
> > "player-centric" military background?
>
> Here we run into our first problem: player-centric.
>
> Now, I've got nothing against giving the players what they want; it's
> just that gamers have a tendency to want an eclectic, diverse variety of
> things.

Well I can't keep cheesy players from making death machines or GMs from
letting them. But at least some sort of guidance I think would be nice for
those without real military experience. If anything, I'd like to include
material that can be used to flesh out military characters. Stuff like, "my
character was involved in the NEO operation in South Africa in 2013.." that
sort of thing. Or knowing where they went to boot camp and jump school.

> This tends to run afoul of standard military organization; you and I
> both know that at the squad level, one soldier is just about the same as
> another. Oh sure, one may carry the 203, another is combat-lifesaver
> certified, etc., but on the whole they're more or less the SAME. In the
> Shadowrun world you have a little more diversity --- one may be an ork,
> another might have a LITTLE cyberware (with emphasis on "little"),
> another MIGHT (just might, maybe, if the GM is generous) a latent
> magician who slipped through the cracks. But by and large, in the
> overall picture, they're all still GRUNTS.

Well the templates would just give the basics that anyone in that field
would be expected to know. For example, everyone who joins the Marines
learns some basic rifle skills, unarmed combat, and heavy weapons. After
that they go to their A school to learn their 'real" trade (or SOI if a
grunt). That gives you other skill minimums (otherwise you would rock out!).
You can individualize your character all you want, as long as you stick to
the minimums.

The T:2K system is argueably more realistic for this but is not directly
comparible to anything in SR at the moment. The Origins system in TSS is a
good start, but even there you see some of the problems with peoples
perceptions of the military...

> Sure, there are military units that tend to have a diverse composition,
> as diverse as a shadowrunner team. Thing is, just about all of these are
> special forces or other special ops team. Of course, all SpecOps really
> means is that they do things that are, well, unconventional for military
> forces: from glamorous stuff like covert ops to boring stuff like Civil
> Affairs. Still, SpecOps is a loaded word among gamers.

<shudder> Oh I agree. That's really not a games fault, it's all those
damnable movies and TV shows that give the wrong impressions. Well, that and
the specops high opinion of themselves :)

I would not be covering specops in any more detail then was necessary. And
even then with an eye on trying to prevent everyone from playing ex-specops
(which seems to be a very common "ex-military Shadowrunner" archetype...).

> I'm not telling you that you should tell players what they can and can't
> play; gamers are notorious for NOT doing what's expected. I'm just
> saying you should be prepared for this and react accordingly.
>
> > B. Lifepath
> > This is what I would like to do, but it has the least base
compatibility
> > with the rest of the system. In short it would work like Twilight: 2000
and
> > Traveller. You enlist in the military branch (also having to pass an
> > Attribute Test or two) and then follow your character through his
career,
> > gaining skills and the like at each step. The difference of course is
that
> > the skills are much more regimented and subject to GM fiat. After all,
that
> > Army officer would have very little time to somehow pick up any surgery
> > skills if he's serving overseas in an fifth-world hellhole.
>
> There are a few problems I see with the Lifepath:
>
> (1) While it's a nice idea, lifepaths tend to be somewhat narrow in
> their focus. This kind of runs against the grain of Shadowrun, which is
> somewhat diverse in the kinds of characters allowed. (Anyone remember
> the Rocker and Tribesman archetypes?) While something like this would
> work in a narrowly focused campaign, like a military one, I see it hard
> to export outside of that. As such, I don't see it as a viable
> alternative to either the Priority-based or point-based systems already
> in place.

Hmm. It has problems interacting with the standard system but it's not
hopeless :) Especially if you want to accurately represent a military member
who just mustered out or was discharged for other reasons.

One problem is how to accurately show skill improvement and the like,
military members go through a lot of training both while in school and when
out in the fleet...hard to represent in SR without ultramunch...

> (2) Lifepaths are very text-intensive. I was playtesting MechWarrior 3rd
> edition last year, which also used a lifepath character generation
> system. I think we spent a disproportionate amount of time fiddling
> around with that than with anything else.

Well, the T2K system is not quite a "Lifepath" system like what I believe
you are referring to. Mainly charts and prequisites. That sort of thing.

> This may not be an issue if you're doing this for a netbook. However,
> for a publication, space is going to be at a premium. The Character
> generation rules for MW 3 took up over 40 pages --- about 1/4 the size
> of Corp Download.

Agreed. As a netbook it would be good, as a print book it would not fit most
likely. Twilight 2000s version did not quite take up 40 pages
though...Different focus I would assume (I don't have or play any Battletech
games anymore). Something like that from CP2020/Origins would probably be
fine for most people.

Besides, I'd have better things to do with the text then have chart after
chart of lifepath boxes ;)

> (3) On the whole, Lifepaths are very detail-oriented and would fit well
> into a "high-resolution" game system like Twilight 2K. On the other
> hand, IMHO Shadowrun is a very "low-resolution" system. The standard
> range of ratings and stats tends generally to fall in between 1 to 10.
> It would seem to me to be difficult to reconcile the two. (Not
> impossible, but it would need some serious tweaking to work well.)

T2K is high resolution? Not really. It does have a lot of detail in certain
areas but character creation is not overly complex - if you've ever played
Traveller or Traveller: TNE you could figure out T2Ks system no prob.

In short I'm leaning more and more towards templates. It seems to be the
most popular.

> > MILITARY ORGANIZATIONS
> > I think I can competently get a handle on the UCAS military at least,
but
> > there is frankly so little information on other Shadowrun militaries any
> > detail is speculative at the very best. Should I just give general
> > organization, tactics, and structure to the various armies? Should I
just
> > worry about the NorthAm continent?
>
> I would think that getting into any sort of detail about organization
> and operations beyond the company level (battalion level, if we wanted
> to be REALLY generous) would be over the heads of most gamers. (I could
> be wrong.) Nor would most gamers care, I think, other than about general
> information (how many divisions the UCAS has, how many carriers Imperial
> Japan has, which corps have nukes, the effects of magic, general
> strategic trends, and so on).

Exactly. No more then a page or two for each branch, with most of that being
locations of training camps and maybe graphics showing troop locations and a
sidebar listing military actions and locations in recent history.

I don't think it's necessary to write a Janes sized article on each military
and it's branches.

> > GRAPHICS
> > Would a map showing locations of military bases and facilities be
useful?
> > After all, how many people REALLY know where Quantico is hmm? It's not
> > rocket science to provide fairly decent graphics of this sort, as well
as
> > speculative locations of troop concentrations and naval forces (I'm
going to
> > go completely with John and Pauls suggestions for naval stuff).
>
> I have the 1991 edition of the Guide to Military Installations, which
> lists over 300 US military posts in all four services, both in the US
> and abroad. Granted, some of them have closed since then, and many would
> be of little or no interest to gamers. (Who really cares what goes on at
> the Redstone Arsenal? Which, BTW, is nothing more than a glorified
> electronics repair shop. QED.)
>
> Still, that is a lot of bases to cover, if you'll pardon the pun.

Badda bing!

I'm not that much of a glutton for punishment ;) But locations of big bases
and military reservations would be nice to know.

And of course I bet everyone wants to know what happened to Groom Lake (Area
51) in Shadowrun...heh

> > EQUIPMENT
> > WITHOUT going into things like armored vehicles and carriers, would
anyone
> > care about standard military equipment, at least general stuff like MREs
and
> > the kind of stuff the average grunt uses? By this I nmean things like
combat
> > boots, smocks, cammies (BDUs for you "Other" branches) and other stuff
you
> > get as your 782 issue (dunno what the other branches call it).
>
> How would this be different from what's already been published in
> previous books? And other than "name brand recognition," why should I,
> as a player or gamemaster, care?

Maybe because nowhere has it been said what the military actually uses? If
you believe Fields of Fire you get the impression of a bunch of grunts
wearing mil-spec armor. And that's obviously not correct.

This sort of thing is mainly just "flavor" and nice to know if you're a
gearhead or want to outfit "realistic" troops in a military campaign.

> > HISTORY
> > Would capsule breakdowns of the EuroWars and the Ghost Dance War be
> > interesting? In particular if they were slanted towards alternate
settings
> > for games? Would background on other regional conflicts be worth
> > reprinting/modifying for inclusion? In particular the Tir/Cali war and
the
> > CAS/Atzlan conflict?
>
> Just be prepared to be nitpicked to death by all the military history
> buffs. I have no problems with giving a once-over on "hotspots" and
> "brushfire wars," though.

Well I can't change some of the (IMHO) dumber events, but an overview of the
major conflicts would be nice. And some listings of things like overseas
actions and the like. I'm especially looking forward to working on "points"
that show how magic has become integrated or the "firsts" such as "first
elemental used on the battlefield.." that sort of thing.

What military history buffs? I don't see too much critique of what's already
been published so I think that's a non-issue. Point taken though, I'd rather
keep things circumspect and let the people who REALLY care about that sort
of thing fill in the details.

> My $.02

Thanks!

<scribble scribble>

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 8
From: Thanatos grendel@**********.dt1.sdca.home.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:31:10 -0800 (PST)
>
> I have the 1991 edition of the Guide to Military Installations, which
> lists over 300 US military posts in all four services, both in the US
> and abroad. Granted, some of them have closed since then, and many would
> be of little or no interest to gamers. (Who really cares what goes on at
> the Redstone Arsenal? Which, BTW, is nothing more than a glorified
> electronics repair shop. QED.)
>

I recently had opportunity to speak to a gentleman who works for the
government coordinating the turnover of former military bases to civilian
hands. He mentioned the fact that as of the beginning of this year, the
US Navy has only 153 active military bases, down from twice that just six
years ago. I can't speak for the other branches of service, but I'd have
to imagine that they've undergone a similar drawdown in recent times as
well.

ACP

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The essence of life is struggle and its goal
is domination. There are higher goals and
deeper meanings, but they exist only within
the mind of man. The reality of life is war.

-- The Way and The Power
Lovret
Message no. 9
From: David Maslen david.maslen@*****.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: 23 Feb 2000 17:38:41 +1100
My suggestions would be;

Use TEMPLATES for the characters. Tell us what skills different types
of character could not have avoided learning, and perhaps what skills
they would be unlikely to have been exposed to.

EQUIPMENT is vital. I'd like to know what equipment an typical soldier
carries, and what he is likely to have access to.

VIGNETTES can be over done. I much prefer creative example of rules.
ie. Whenever there is a chance to explain by example, use an example
they gets the reader thinking about how it might work in their game.

As for MINIATURES, nice for a minority. Generally I'd say it's a
stretch to move to a military RPG, if it become a miniatures based
RPG, it's not going to have enough appeal. So do it if it interests
you, but the other stuff will have a greater audience.
Message no. 10
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:45:01 +0900
Ken,

First of all, very cool idea, one that I think is overdue. It sounds like
you've got everything on the ball and so I'll snip a lot to avoid saying
"Sounds great!" over and over again. Just imagine I'm saying it anyway. :)

> MILITARY ORGANIZATIONS
> I think I can competently get a handle on the UCAS military at least, but
> there is frankly so little information on other Shadowrun militaries any
> detail is speculative at the very best. Should I just give general
> organization, tactics, and structure to the various armies? Should I just
> worry about the NorthAm continent?
At least a little info, even speculation, on a few non-North American groups
would be great. The Japanese Imperial forces come to mind.

Do you plan to do this from a detached, informational point of view, or
perhaps as documents taken from within, say, the UCAS military? In the
latter case, information on and perception of other armies could be skewed.
That could get interesting.

> GRAPHICS
> Would a map showing locations of military bases and facilities be useful?
> After all, how many people REALLY know where Quantico is hmm? It's not
> rocket science to provide fairly decent graphics of this sort, as well as
> speculative locations of troop concentrations and naval forces (I'm going to
> go completely with John and Pauls suggestions for naval stuff).
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Maps are key, even at a minimal level of
detail.

> EQUIPMENT
> WITHOUT going into things like armored vehicles and carriers, would anyone
> care about standard military equipment, at least general stuff like MREs and
> the kind of stuff the average grunt uses? By this I nmean things like combat
> boots, smocks, cammies (BDUs for you "Other" branches) and other stuff you
> get as your 782 issue (dunno what the other branches call it).
I think this would be enormously useful. It's not the kind of thing that
merits pages and pages of detail, but it would be nice to know what standard
equipment looks like. Perhaps a sidebar's worth of information would do the
trick; enough to let non-military types know what to expect, not so much as
to waste the time of those already in the know. It also serves a purpose in
non-military campaigns, since some of the equipment might be very useful to
Joe Shadowrunner as well.

> VIGNETTES
> I'm an ok writer, but would little vignettes at the beginning of each
> section be interesting or worthless trash you would not print so your
> ugliest dog could sit on it? For examples of my writing I'm afraid you'll
> have to download some e-zines for the NetEpic e-zine "Incoming!"
> (http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1353/epicentre.html)
I just took a look at "This Sucks" and got a kick out of it. Don't sell
yourself short. :) Vignettes are a great way to draw the reader into the
mind of the characters. For all the stats and rules, the stories are my
favorite part of Rigger 2, for example, letting you know what it's really
like to rig a vehicle as well as what a good rigger is capable of. Again, a
big help for those who lack military experience, and that sounds like most
of us. If it's too much to take on, perhaps others could help out here.
(I'm not volunteering :) I fall soundly into the 'no experience' category)

> MASS COMBAT/TACTICAL SYSTEM
I guess this could work on two different levels: large individual battles
and entire campaigns. Personally, I'm not a big fan of miniatures gaming.
I'm guessing the same goes for others, or DMZ would have a 3rd edition too.
What's more interesting to me is a way to integrate the characters in the
greater scope of the battle/war/conflict/whatever. If you're talking about
a quick-and-dirty system for the entire campaign, it'd be nice to see what
influence the characters' actions have. On the other hand, if the
characters are involved in a large battle, what effect will that have on
them? When do bombs start raining down around them? When does the other
side pull back its forces? When do the good guys get their air strike and
how does it help them?

How about tactics? Not for game mechanics, but for planning and executing a
campaign. What kinds of conflicts take place? What makes a guerrilla
skirmish different from a full-fledged war? What sorts of decisions do
generals make? What about field commanders? How do different military
branches interact? When are ground troops sent in? Again, clues for the
clueless. :)

> FINIS?
> I don't want a dry technical manual, and I really could care less about
> describing every little aspect of military culture. That being said what do
> YOU think a gamemaster would like to see in integrating military characters
> or for players wanting more detail for their own characters backgrounds?
> Listings of wars? Gear? Slang? How to make realistic looking INTSUMS and
> reports? REALISTIC looks at security levels? What?
EVERYTHING! No, just kidding. Anything that really adds flavor to a
campaign is what I'd like to see. I don't know how many people would run a
dedicated military campaign, although it would be interesting. But I'm
guessing many people would like to somehow integrate the military into a
regular campaign. What does the military have to do with shadowrunning?
Not just ex-military characters, but what happens when the two get tangled
together. What work is available in hot-- or not-so-hot-- spots? What are
the greatest concerns of the various military organizations in 2060 and how
can shadowrunners best exploit them (or be exploited)?

Kudos to you for working on this. I found your "Thoughts on Future
Military" (and various replies) very interesting and I think your insight
could help a lot of people like myself who would like to incorporate the
military into Shadowrun but just don't have a good idea of how to do it.

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
Add'l addresses: djmoose@***.com, moose@******.princeton.edu
Things never go wrong. They just don't always go according to plan.
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:29:17 +0100
According to DragonC147@***.com, at 21:40 on 22 Feb 00, the word on the
street was...

> and what are the "Other" branches, in regards to BDU's?

He meant the Marines call their camouflage combat clothing "cammies" while
the Army, Air Force, and I assume Navy and Coast Guard, call them BDUs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm talking to strangers to see what I feel
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Dark Steel seattle2052@*******.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 06:14:06 PST
>This tends to run afoul of standard military organization; you and I
>both know that at the squad level, one soldier is just about the same as
>another. Oh sure, one may carry the 203, another is combat-lifesaver
>certified, etc., but on the whole they're more or less the SAME. In the
>Shadowrun world you have a little more diversity --- one may be an ork,
>another might have a LITTLE cyberware (with emphasis on "little"),
>another MIGHT (just might, maybe, if the GM is generous) a latent
>magician who slipped through the cracks. But by and large, in the
>overall picture, they're all still GRUNTS.

In the late 60's President John F. Kennedy saw the trend of military
operations being less overt and more small unit actions. As a result he
formed the SEALS in I think it was '68. With the exception of the EURO-WARS,
all units actions will be of a smaller size. Hence you will see a large
number OPFOR and Spec Ops (Force Recon, SEALS, Green Berets, Rangers,
Spetnaz, SAS, ect. ) used in operations that allow for political manouvering
room. With this in mind, many Spec Ops personel are trained in as many small
arms as they can find. As such you are allowed pretty much any weapon you
want so long as it conforms to the mission parameters.

If the characters want to be GRUNTS, then let them, but if they require new
and different things then they will choose an elite unit.

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Message no. 13
From: Tony Rabiola argent1@****.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:35:21 -0600
> In the late 60's President John F. Kennedy saw the trend of
military
> operations being less overt and more small unit actions. As a
result he
> formed the SEALS in I think it was '68. >

Call me crazy, but I don't think JFK was doing too much at all in
the late sixties, him being assassinated in 1963 and all.

Argent
"Other than that, Mrs. Kennedy, how did you like the parade?"
Message no. 14
From: Dark Steel seattle2052@*******.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:20:33 PST
Sorry, right president wrong timeframe. Early 60s, so sue me.
The rest of the info is still accurate.
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Message no. 15
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook: Please give feedback!
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:32:03 -0600
From: Dark Steel
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 8:14 AM

> In the late 60's President John F. Kennedy saw the trend....

That would be interesting, since John F. Kennedy died in 1963, which I don't
think anyone would qualify as "late 60s".

This historical nit-pick has been brought to you by the letter J.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.






From Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:22:09 -0800
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:22:09 -0800
From: HP Authorized Customer
Subject: World of Darkness: Shadowrun

Greetings,
I would be highly interested in assisting in this project - if
you will have me. Still trying to upgrade my SR books to 3rd Ed (Hastings
is back-ordered on that one. <sighs>), but I have access to almost all of
the World of Darkness systems - including Wraith and Changeling, but
excluding Hunter (Sucks according to me - no offense intended for those who
like it.).

As a side-note, I am working on a conversion of WhiteWolf's
Aberrant RPG into SR terms. Making the Novas very rare, but occurring as
one of the technological evolutions of metahumanity. Seems like fun to me
and my little (only 2 others) group.

Yours in Truth,
- Michael R. Papas

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