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Message no. 1
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:52:44 -0800
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> Since I hate it when people refer to something offline without quoting it,
I
> decided to repost my original post to the Forums here. I figure it fits in
> nicely with all the stuff Paul and Ken have been talking about, as well as
> the recent discussion.

I believe it was mentioned on DRF that one of the freelancers had already
submitted an project relating to this. Anyone have any other information on
this?

Some sources of inspiration for this sort of project could be GURPS.
Specifically
GURPS Espionage
GURPS Special Ops
GURPS Ogre (it's in playtest WHEEE!!!!)
GURPS Traveller: Star Mercs

Other sources for info are:
Twilight 2000
Earth War 2047 (web supplement for Mekton Z -
http://members.aol.com/jhunsin/index.html)
...various board games

Something fun to add would be chapters on biowar agents, nuclear weapons
(haha good luck seeing if the SR damage system can handle THAT) and maybe
military vehicles (personally I think GURPS Vehicles would be better then
Rigger2 for this). A mass combat system would also be very nice.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 2
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:21:43 -0500
From: "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
> From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> > Since I hate it when people refer to something offline without quoting
it,
> I
> > decided to repost my original post to the Forums here. I figure it fits
in
> > nicely with all the stuff Paul and Ken have been talking about, as well
as
> > the recent discussion.
>
> I believe it was mentioned on DRF that one of the freelancers had already
> submitted an project relating to this. Anyone have any other information
on
> this?

DE had considered it, but in a very abstract fashion, and, as I understand
it, the idea was not well-received. Mike is pretty dedicated to putting the
shadow back in shadowrun. So we just do this stuff on our own, y'know?

> Some sources of inspiration for this sort of project could be GURPS.
> Specifically
> GURPS Espionage
> GURPS Special Ops
> GURPS Ogre (it's in playtest WHEEE!!!!)
> GURPS Traveller: Star Mercs
>
> Other sources for info are:
> Twilight 2000
> Earth War 2047 (web supplement for Mekton Z -
> http://members.aol.com/jhunsin/index.html)
> ...various board games

Well, and real life. :)

> Something fun to add would be chapters on biowar agents, nuclear weapons
> (haha good luck seeing if the SR damage system can handle THAT) and maybe
> military vehicles (personally I think GURPS Vehicles would be better then
> Rigger2 for this). A mass combat system would also be very nice.

The delicate thing, for most people, is keeping SR from turning into a
tactical board game. Of course, I have no problem with an "extended rules
set for military simulation" in SR, but personally, I just do it all in my
head. It's easier. :) I hate rules.
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:08:14 -0600
From: abortion_engine
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 7:22 AM

> DE had considered it, but in a very abstract fashion, and, as I
> understand it, the idea was not well-received. Mike is pretty
> dedicated to putting the shadow back in shadowrun.

You're saying that like it's a bad thing. I don't think that it is,
personally. (This is not to say that I wouldn't like to have some of the
material around, since I would.)

> So we just do this stuff on our own, y'know?

This is the great tradition of net.books. Rock on.

That being said, one of the projects for later this year (again, from the
"Secrets of Shadowrun" seminar at Gen Con, which I listened to again [in
part] last night) is THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT. It'll have
a different title, I'm assured, but basically this is a horror (with a
lower-case 'h' and not an upper-case one) supplement for SHADOWRUN (Mike
called it "Shadowrun meets Cthulu" at the con). If it goes over well, he
said that he'd like to do a military-themed book and an espionage-themed
book in a similar fashion (which is the one I'm hoping for, actually, since
CAS Intel is such a big part of my game world). So a FASA-produced book of
this nature is not out of the question.

You might drop him a line to talk about it, at least.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 4
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:51:07 -0500
From: "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
> From: abortion_engine
> > DE had considered it, but in a very abstract fashion, and, as I
> > understand it, the idea was not well-received. Mike is pretty
> > dedicated to putting the shadow back in shadowrun.
>
> You're saying that like it's a bad thing. I don't think that it is,
> personally. (This is not to say that I wouldn't like to have some of the
> material around, since I would.)

I don't really care where the characters lie in the game word. We've played
rogue IRS agents, military officers, shadow fixers, shadowrunnerhunters,
mercenaries, doctors, businessmen, corporate security, you name it. I think
playing only professional criminals in the shadowrun universe is far too
limiting. But, hey, my game sure as heck ain't the same as everyone else's.
:)

In other words, shadow in, shadow out, I don't care. It's the world that
interests me, not the profession.

> > So we just do this stuff on our own, y'know?
>
> This is the great tradition of net.books. Rock on.

Oh, Ken and Paul...here boys... :)

> That being said, one of the projects for later this year (again, from the
> "Secrets of Shadowrun" seminar at Gen Con, which I listened to again [in
> part] last night) is THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT. It'll
have
> a different title, I'm assured, but basically this is a horror (with a
> lower-case 'h' and not an upper-case one) supplement for SHADOWRUN (Mike
> called it "Shadowrun meets Cthulu" at the con). If it goes over well, he
> said that he'd like to do a military-themed book and an espionage-themed
> book in a similar fashion (which is the one I'm hoping for, actually,
since
> CAS Intel is such a big part of my game world). So a FASA-produced book
of
> this nature is not out of the question.
>
> You might drop him a line to talk about it, at least.

Possible. Possible. We'll see.
Message no. 5
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:09:28 -0800
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> DE had considered it, but in a very abstract fashion, and, as I understand
> it, the idea was not well-received. Mike is pretty dedicated to putting
the
> shadow back in shadowrun. So we just do this stuff on our own, y'know?

I thought the guy who maintained the Shadowrun Military site already has a
draft made up. If we could use that as a basis it would save a lot of time
and effort. I'm a big fan of netbooks though, so I'd love to help.

> Well, and real life. :)

Heheh, well as the discussion between me, John, and Paul proved you can get
some VERY different opinions on matters ;)

> The delicate thing, for most people, is keeping SR from turning into a
> tactical board game. Of course, I have no problem with an "extended rules
> set for military simulation" in SR, but personally, I just do it all in my
> head. It's easier. :) I hate rules.

Bah, I'm a BIG miniature gamer - so you'll have to excuse me on that part.
In fact I'm thinking of trying my hand at converting SR into a miniature
game system... sort of a replacement to DMZ and all that.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 6
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:12:48 -0800
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>

> > > So we just do this stuff on our own, y'know?
> >
> > This is the great tradition of net.books. Rock on.
>
> Oh, Ken and Paul...here boys... :)

If Paul was interested I'd just defer all naval aspects to him ;)

Hmm, maybe Mr. Szeto (see, spelled it right) could give us a rough outline
of what he would like to see from a military sourcebook? No offense to any
other writers at FASA but they have a BAD track record of keeping continuity
in military matters.

> Possible. Possible. We'll see.

Hey, I'll send an email as well. Can't hurt ;)

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:16:43 -0600
From: Tzeentch
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 6:09 PM

> I thought the guy who maintained the Shadowrun Military site already
> has a draft made up. If we could use that as a basis it would save a
> lot of time and effort. I'm a big fan of netbooks though, so I'd love
> to help.

I'd love to see this draft, too. I'd be willing to help, but I don't know
how much use I'd be, seeing as I was just a REMF in the USAF.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Dark Steel seattle2052@*******.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:24:58 PST
>Something fun to add would be chapters on biowar agents, nuclear weapons
>(haha good luck seeing if the SR damage system can handle THAT) and maybe
>military vehicles (personally I think GURPS Vehicles would be better then
>Rigger2 for this). A mass combat system would also be very nice.
>

I'm a TW2K veteran and would damned well like to see something that is
worthy of pulling the Dragon HAW out and using it. I mean, what's th oint of
having a tool if there is no problem to apply it to. The lack of any
sufficient military information in SR makes the Merc. Archtype a 5th wheel
in all but the most violent situation.

-Dark Steel
Gun Guru and military master.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 9
From: Dark Steel seattle2052@*******.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:34:40 PST
> > I thought the guy who maintained the Shadowrun Military site already
> > has a draft made up. If we could use that as a basis it would save a
> > lot of time and effort. I'm a big fan of netbooks though, so I'd love
> > to help.
>
>I'd love to see this draft, too. I'd be willing to help, but I don't know
>how much use I'd be, seeing as I was just a REMF in the USAF.
>
I'd love to help, my study of past, modern, and post-modern firearms has
developed to almost an obsession. My study of worl military history is not
far behind that. Someone drop me a line if I can help this along AT:
ares_arms@*******.com

Dark Steel
Defense Demigod
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 10
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:44:39 EST
In a message dated 2/17/00 1:25:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
seattle2052@*******.com writes:

> >Something fun to add would be chapters on biowar agents, nuclear weapons
> >(haha good luck seeing if the SR damage system can handle THAT) and maybe
> >military vehicles (personally I think GURPS Vehicles would be better then
> >Rigger2 for this). A mass combat system would also be very nice.
> >
>
> I'm a TW2K veteran and would damned well like to see something that is
> worthy of pulling the Dragon HAW out and using it. I mean, what's th oint
of
> having a tool if there is no problem to apply it to. The lack of any
> sufficient military information in SR makes the Merc. Archtype a 5th wheel
> in all but the most violent situation.

Personally, I completely disagree with you. The "Merc" in the Tuesday games
is actually the team leader/spokesperson currently, and doing a really
awesome job of it. (Those of you from Gencon, Greg (playing Fortune) has
been snagged into this role now for almost 2 months or more).

And as for "having a problem to apply it to", here's a unique situation you
may like. The Sunday Group, for whatever reason, was having some problems
with something and had recently come into possession of "the Ares Summer
Catalog", and purchased a few things. First thing the rigger bought was
something most definitely NOT man portable (Dragon Ballista-thingie).
Anyway, the adept in the truck came up with a scheme while they were being
chased. She opened up the back of the track, which blithely displayed said
"thingie" for the pursuants on their tail. Said pursuant sees wild-hairs
woman, who looks kinda like a Halloweener reject (former ganger archetype
with a magical bent) point this "THINGIE" at them. Pursuant peels away at
not only best possible speed, but decides that discretion has nothing to do
with valor or value, and puts stress on the vehicle to boot.

Said "thingie" was never fired. ;-P

There are moments when just "seeing" the toys is enough .... ;-)

(and yes, I know this isn't what you were looking for, but it still a cute
little story in any case)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 11
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:47:29 -0800
From: <HHackerH@***.com>

> > I'm a TW2K veteran and would damned well like to see something that is
> > worthy of pulling the Dragon HAW out and using it. I mean, what's th
oint
> of
> > having a tool if there is no problem to apply it to. The lack of any
> > sufficient military information in SR makes the Merc. Archtype a 5th
wheel
> > in all but the most violent situation.
>
> Personally, I completely disagree with you. The "Merc" in the Tuesday
games
> is actually the team leader/spokesperson currently, and doing a really
> awesome job of it. (Those of you from Gencon, Greg (playing Fortune) has
> been snagged into this role now for almost 2 months or more).

Some of us would like a bit more depth to our military characters then what
is often found in RPGs such as : "I'm the big lug Marine and that's why I
have this HVAR and Intelligence 2" or "I was former military and they gave
me this cyberarm, smartlink, and wired reflexes."

If someone in your group was former-military they could whip something up
that was plausible. But the average Johnny Civilian has only bad TV and
shows like "JAG" to tell them what the military is like. Needless to say
real military usually don't like shows about them (case in point is
'Pensacola Wings of Gold' which is filmed at Miramar (not Pensacola). Going
by that show you would think all Marine training squadrons go out and fight
terrorists and get involved in world spanning plots.

And then you have Tom Clancy..which is another matter where you seriously
get into topics of "reality vs BS people tell him".

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 12
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:54:33 +0000
In article <00be01bf78db$ba13e460$eda10f3f@********>, Tzeentch
<tzeentch666@*********.net> writes
>From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
>> Oh, Ken and Paul...here boys... :)
>
>If Paul was interested I'd just defer all naval aspects to him ;)

Hey, I'm up for it (now the list seems to be working again for me :) )

>Hmm, maybe Mr. Szeto (see, spelled it right) could give us a rough outline
>of what he would like to see from a military sourcebook? No offense to any
>other writers at FASA but they have a BAD track record of keeping continuity
>in military matters.
>
>> Possible. Possible. We'll see.

--
Paul J. Adam

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