Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Fw: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook [was: Year of...?]
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:43:15 -0500
Since I hate it when people refer to something offline without quoting it, I
decided to repost my original post to the Forums here. I figure it fits in
nicely with all the stuff Paul and Ken have been talking about, as well as
the recent discussion.

> This forum is dedicated to suggestions for a possible upcoming year-focus
> topic based on a military theme.
> My gamemaster and I had a conversation a few days ago, outlining a few
> necessary points, which has grown into the post you see here. These are a
> few of the things we feel would be absolutely essential to a useful
> discussion of the issue of military subjects in Shadowrun.
>
> 1. TO&E. Or, in plain English, Total Officer and Enlisted composition, a
> generic term for unit composition and structure. We'd like to see how each
> of the major North American militaries are organized.
>
> How large is the largest army in North America? [Which is the CAS,
according
> to Neo-Anarchists' Guide to North America] Do the Native American Nations
> use the a traditional style rank and operating system?
>
> We think some of this would be a little technical for some players, but
some
> mention of how an army is set up is intrinsic to understanding how it
works.
> The strategies of the CAS would vastly differ from that of, say the Tir,
> because of the size differential, as well as the differing technologies
and
> makeup of the force.
>
> Also, a small dissertation into the rank structure would help some people
> understand this better. After all, how much does the word Major really
mean?
> In the recent Marine Corps, a Major has vast responsibilities when
compared
> to say, the Army, where majors are a dime a dozen.
>
> Also, introduce the idea of combined arms; air, land and sea forces
working
> in conjunction. In an area like Seattle this would definitely fit. A quick
> brief on what is the standard armament for an infantry squad would fit in
> here.
>
> There should certainly be a section on the various special ops forces;
> Marine Force Recon, Navy Seals, the Air Force Nuclear Missile Silo React
and
> Special Police teams, Delta Force, the Sioux Wild Cats, the Salish
Rangers,
> the Tir Ghosts and Paladins. Discussion of their tactics and integration
are
> salient here, as they differ from forces of more standard composition.
Also,
> in the present, there is increased discussion of increased
military/civilian
> authority cross-training and joint ops. How do the individual countries
deal
> with this? This would not be a bad place to mention corporate
para-military
> organizations and how they fit into the equation.
>
> 2. Military armor, weapons and most importantly vehicles / drones. Drones,
> we can't say enough about. A discussion on modern battlefield tactics
would
> fit in nicely here. How are drones integrated and used? Are anthropods,
like
> those discussed in the Corp download and the Rigger Black Book 2 in use
> anywhere?
>
> Specific weapons we'd like to see covered include: Mines, [land and
> otherwise], claymores, flame throwers [especially after Bug City],
mortars,
> anti-vehicle weapons like the Great Dragon, and the heavy stuff like heavy
> artillery. [Have to be careful there; this could really turn into a
> mathematical quagmire.]
>
> As far as vehicles go, we want the Stonewall if nothing else. Main Battle
> Tanks, attack helicopters, light armored vehicles and amphibious assault
> vehicles all fit in here. Aircraft carriers, battleships, destroyers, and
> missile frigates. On a gamemaster level, we wouldn't mind hearing about
who
> has access to what when it comes to the big toys, like nuclear missiles,
> THOR, and other things PC's will never have under any reasonable
> consideration.
>
> What about major facilities? What and where are the big bases? And for
those
> crazies who would ask, how about the supply depots that carry easily
> portable toys?
>
> 3. Magic in the military. Obviously some nations use it more than others.
We
> 'd also bet some individual branches use it with varying frequency. The
> Marine Corps in the CAS would use a hell of lot less magic than, say, the
> Air Force would use [Nuclear Missile Barrier Wards.]. We'd bet that the
> various militaries would have some interesting angles on adept powers and
> spells.
>
> Does the concept of hermetic orders play into the military? In Aztlan,
> definitely yes. Quebec? Who knows.
>
> Has there been any military exploration of the metaplanes?
>
> 4. Cyberware. We'd be willing to bet [insert valuable item here] that
cyber
> went over like the city of gold in the military. The question of legality
> comes in right here. What happens to Vets with chrome after they are
> discharged? What about in circumstances like Dishonorable Discharges and
Bad
> Conduct Discharges?
>
> How about going out into town? How does the local army town feel about
> having a chromed killer shopping at the local mall? In the present, the
Navy
> has one of the world's biggest and best medical systems. The Air Force
also
> is no joke. In the future, this would possibly be the basis for
implantation
> and cybertechnology. Or, do they subcontract this service? [Hard to
imagine
> sending my top black ops to the local big bad mega for major invasive
> surgery, however.]
>
> 6. I guess I should mention this: deckers. We know they are out there. We
> know we should care. We don't. Someone else can handle this portion of
> suggestions.
>
> 7. This is something we've touched on, but haven't really come out an
said;
> TACTICS. How are all these disparate forces integrated? What are the
> prevailing tactics and techniques used by the various branches of the
> various countries' military forces? How do the tactics vary from standard
to
> Special Forces?
>
> Two of the single most important aspects of any military force are its
> tactics and integration. Please, please, don't ignore this facet of the
> military machine.
>
> 7. If there is a campaign/threaded adventure, which there will be, Denver
is
> the obvious choice for the flash point. However, if the initial or lasting
> engagement was restricted to only a few combatants-which wouldn't be
nearly
> as fun-there are a few other obvious options:
>
> a. The Seattle Independence movement. [Another San Francisco?]
> b. Aztlan and Texas.
> c. The Tir and anyone. [We're going to hand those daisy-eaters their
asses,
> sir! Hey, wait, isn't that Lofwyr?]
>
> 8. Miscellaneous. A brief overview of the world's military situation;
> terrorists who hate the military, runners and the military [how does Uncle
> Sam feel when an expensive piece of hardware with lots of training walks
> off, or when some guy like Kane is out there?], and Paracritters, Does
> Anyone Still Care?
>
> Well, that's about all for now. We will certainly post more as more ideas
> come to us. As always, we would like to note that if FASA requires any
> assistance from us, we are more than happy to give any help we can.
> Personal information on both of us is available upon request.
>
Message no. 2
From: Damon Casantini cryingwolf@*****.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook [was: Year of...?]
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:19:27 -0500
I want to repost this to the ShadowrunCR list if no one has any objections
since I think this would make a great project.

Shadow

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of abortion_engine
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 11:43 AM
> To: Shadowrun Newslist
> Subject: Fw: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook [was: Year of...?]
>
>
> Since I hate it when people refer to something offline without
> quoting it, I
> decided to repost my original post to the Forums here. I figure it fits in
> nicely with all the stuff Paul and Ken have been talking about, as well as
> the recent discussion.
>
> > This forum is dedicated to suggestions for a possible upcoming
> year-focus
> > topic based on a military theme.
> > My gamemaster and I had a conversation a few days ago, outlining a few
> > necessary points, which has grown into the post you see here.
> These are a
> > few of the things we feel would be absolutely essential to a useful
> > discussion of the issue of military subjects in Shadowrun.
> >
> > 1. TO&E. Or, in plain English, Total Officer and Enlisted composition, a
> > generic term for unit composition and structure. We'd like to
> see how each
> > of the major North American militaries are organized.
> >
> > How large is the largest army in North America? [Which is the CAS,
> according
> > to Neo-Anarchists' Guide to North America] Do the Native
> American Nations
> > use the a traditional style rank and operating system?
> >
> > We think some of this would be a little technical for some players, but
> some
> > mention of how an army is set up is intrinsic to understanding how it
> works.
> > The strategies of the CAS would vastly differ from that of, say the Tir,
> > because of the size differential, as well as the differing technologies
> and
> > makeup of the force.
> >
> > Also, a small dissertation into the rank structure would help
> some people
> > understand this better. After all, how much does the word Major really
> mean?
> > In the recent Marine Corps, a Major has vast responsibilities when
> compared
> > to say, the Army, where majors are a dime a dozen.
> >
> > Also, introduce the idea of combined arms; air, land and sea forces
> working
> > in conjunction. In an area like Seattle this would definitely
> fit. A quick
> > brief on what is the standard armament for an infantry squad
> would fit in
> > here.
> >
> > There should certainly be a section on the various special ops forces;
> > Marine Force Recon, Navy Seals, the Air Force Nuclear Missile Silo React
> and
> > Special Police teams, Delta Force, the Sioux Wild Cats, the Salish
> Rangers,
> > the Tir Ghosts and Paladins. Discussion of their tactics and integration
> are
> > salient here, as they differ from forces of more standard composition.
> Also,
> > in the present, there is increased discussion of increased
> military/civilian
> > authority cross-training and joint ops. How do the individual countries
> deal
> > with this? This would not be a bad place to mention corporate
> para-military
> > organizations and how they fit into the equation.
> >
> > 2. Military armor, weapons and most importantly vehicles /
> drones. Drones,
> > we can't say enough about. A discussion on modern battlefield tactics
> would
> > fit in nicely here. How are drones integrated and used? Are anthropods,
> like
> > those discussed in the Corp download and the Rigger Black Book 2 in use
> > anywhere?
> >
> > Specific weapons we'd like to see covered include: Mines, [land and
> > otherwise], claymores, flame throwers [especially after Bug City],
> mortars,
> > anti-vehicle weapons like the Great Dragon, and the heavy stuff
> like heavy
> > artillery. [Have to be careful there; this could really turn into a
> > mathematical quagmire.]
> >
> > As far as vehicles go, we want the Stonewall if nothing else.
> Main Battle
> > Tanks, attack helicopters, light armored vehicles and amphibious assault
> > vehicles all fit in here. Aircraft carriers, battleships,
> destroyers, and
> > missile frigates. On a gamemaster level, we wouldn't mind hearing about
> who
> > has access to what when it comes to the big toys, like nuclear missiles,
> > THOR, and other things PC's will never have under any reasonable
> > consideration.
> >
> > What about major facilities? What and where are the big bases? And for
> those
> > crazies who would ask, how about the supply depots that carry easily
> > portable toys?
> >
> > 3. Magic in the military. Obviously some nations use it more
> than others.
> We
> > 'd also bet some individual branches use it with varying frequency. The
> > Marine Corps in the CAS would use a hell of lot less magic
> than, say, the
> > Air Force would use [Nuclear Missile Barrier Wards.]. We'd bet that the
> > various militaries would have some interesting angles on adept
> powers and
> > spells.
> >
> > Does the concept of hermetic orders play into the military? In Aztlan,
> > definitely yes. Quebec? Who knows.
> >
> > Has there been any military exploration of the metaplanes?
> >
> > 4. Cyberware. We'd be willing to bet [insert valuable item here] that
> cyber
> > went over like the city of gold in the military. The question
> of legality
> > comes in right here. What happens to Vets with chrome after they are
> > discharged? What about in circumstances like Dishonorable Discharges and
> Bad
> > Conduct Discharges?
> >
> > How about going out into town? How does the local army town feel about
> > having a chromed killer shopping at the local mall? In the present, the
> Navy
> > has one of the world's biggest and best medical systems. The Air Force
> also
> > is no joke. In the future, this would possibly be the basis for
> implantation
> > and cybertechnology. Or, do they subcontract this service? [Hard to
> imagine
> > sending my top black ops to the local big bad mega for major invasive
> > surgery, however.]
> >
> > 6. I guess I should mention this: deckers. We know they are out
> there. We
> > know we should care. We don't. Someone else can handle this portion of
> > suggestions.
> >
> > 7. This is something we've touched on, but haven't really come out an
> said;
> > TACTICS. How are all these disparate forces integrated? What are the
> > prevailing tactics and techniques used by the various branches of the
> > various countries' military forces? How do the tactics vary
> from standard
> to
> > Special Forces?
> >
> > Two of the single most important aspects of any military force are its
> > tactics and integration. Please, please, don't ignore this facet of the
> > military machine.
> >
> > 7. If there is a campaign/threaded adventure, which there will
> be, Denver
> is
> > the obvious choice for the flash point. However, if the initial
> or lasting
> > engagement was restricted to only a few combatants-which wouldn't be
> nearly
> > as fun-there are a few other obvious options:
> >
> > a. The Seattle Independence movement. [Another San Francisco?]
> > b. Aztlan and Texas.
> > c. The Tir and anyone. [We're going to hand those daisy-eaters their
> asses,
> > sir! Hey, wait, isn't that Lofwyr?]
> >
> > 8. Miscellaneous. A brief overview of the world's military situation;
> > terrorists who hate the military, runners and the military [how
> does Uncle
> > Sam feel when an expensive piece of hardware with lots of training walks
> > off, or when some guy like Kane is out there?], and Paracritters, Does
> > Anyone Still Care?
> >
> > Well, that's about all for now. We will certainly post more as
> more ideas
> > come to us. As always, we would like to note that if FASA requires any
> > assistance from us, we are more than happy to give any help we can.
> > Personal information on both of us is available upon request.
> >
>
>
Message no. 3
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook [was: Year of...?]
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:54:55 +1100
I think that I speak for many when I say that while military data for SR
would be vaguely interesting, Simply knowing who they are and what they are
doing is enough. I am not into guns or an army fan, and even though most of
my group is, I still don't think they are interested in the technical
details of 60's military beyond what the character can rip off to become
more munchie. I skim over most of the really long posts about the armed
forces or just delete them unread.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that if you like the military or you
send posts arguing the details of military life that you are wrong or you
should stop, I just think that if Shadowrun was to go more into military
specifics it would detract from the enjoyment that others who only want to
run the shadows get. It is fine to say that we should just ignore the rules
if we don't like them, but that is not really practical as sourcebooks
ALWAYS reference to other sourcebooks making you buy more and once the box
is opened, it can not be shut again.
It might work if there was a branch off of the SR game with its own rules
and sourcebooks that was aimed toward military combat but I think that there
is a glut of future military games, and some even have magic or the
equivalent. There would still be the sourcebooks referencing other
sourcebooks to make you buy into both systems, but it does seem to work for
the Vampire role playing and live action systems.
Now, I will say this in big letters, just to be sure. I AM NOT CRITISIZING
ANYONE HERE, OR TRYING TO DETRACT FROM THEIR HOBBIES OR INTERESTS. I AM
SIMPLY POINTING OUT THAT THERE ARE OTHER POINTS OF VIEW THAT ARE NOT READILY
APPARENT TO SOME, WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE. NOT THAT YOU NEED MY PERMISSION,
BUT CONTINUE TO POST ABOUT MILITARY CONCERNS, IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THERE ARE
MANY WHO DO ENJOY THE SUBJECT, JUST PLEASE REMEMBER THAT WE OTHERS EXIST.
I know I'm going to get flamed anyway :)
Message no. 4
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook [was: Year of...?]
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:01:46 -0800
From: Simon Fuller <sfuller@******.com.au>

> I think that I speak for many when I say that while military data for SR
> would be vaguely interesting, Simply knowing who they are and what they
are
> doing is enough. I am not into guns or an army fan, and even though most
of
> my group is, I still don't think they are interested in the technical
> details of 60's military beyond what the character can rip off to become
> more munchie. I skim over most of the really long posts about the armed
> forces or just delete them unread.
<snip>

Hey... :)

> Now, I will say this in big letters, just to be sure. I AM NOT CRITISIZING
> ANYONE HERE, OR TRYING TO DETRACT FROM THEIR HOBBIES OR INTERESTS. I AM
> SIMPLY POINTING OUT THAT THERE ARE OTHER POINTS OF VIEW THAT ARE NOT
READILY
> APPARENT TO SOME, WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE. NOT THAT YOU NEED MY
PERMISSION,
> BUT CONTINUE TO POST ABOUT MILITARY CONCERNS, IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THERE ARE
> MANY WHO DO ENJOY THE SUBJECT, JUST PLEASE REMEMBER THAT WE OTHERS EXIST.
> I know I'm going to get flamed anyway :)

Personaly, I'm not sure I would support a military-themed sourcebook from
FASA. If you have been in the military you have certain sets of assumptions
you learn - and every branch is different. Mr. Szeto was Army IIRC, so if he
wrote it I'm sure I'd think some of the Marine-themed material was bogus and
vice-versa if I wrote something on the Army. Not to mention all the (frankly
very boring) material you would have to have in there to get non-military
people at least somewhat acquanted with the military lifestyle and
structure.

And we have not even touched the munch aspects. I thought having capital
ships in Cyberpirates was bad enough- giving stats for supernasty biowar
agents and armored vehicles may not be the best thing. I'm sure the former
Rifts-plyaers would relish it though...Not to mention the SR rules really
are not very accomodating to high-power weapons.

As a netbook the concept would be great. Maybe base it on an alternate
Shadowrun campaign set in the Eurowars and you could use a lot of the
Twilight: 2000 material as well. Of course the cyber and bio would be
cranked WAY down... Either that or have it as a Desert Wars sourcebook.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 5
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook [was: Year of...?]
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:18:47 -0500
From: "Damon Casantini" <cryingwolf@*****.net>
> I want to repost this to the ShadowrunCR list if no one has any objections
> since I think this would make a great project.

What exactly is ShadowrunCR?

___________________________________
The devil is an angel just like everyone else.
Message no. 6
From: David Maslen david.maslen@*****.com
Subject: Military Sourcebook / Yearbook [was: Year of...?]
Date: 23 Feb 2000 17:13:46 +1100
I would love to see a military source book, preferably netbook
develop. While I have probably a better than average knowledge of
things military, purely from a teenage interest, I would suggest that
the level of detail discussed here recently is not really what would
appeal to a broad enough cross section of shadowrun players.

Personally I would just like to see an alternative campaign setting
where players can have all the BFG's, armour and explosives they want,
in the full knowledge that the opposition will too. Let them kill
everything and get it out of their systems.

Then perhaps they will play low key shadowrun in the shadows, with
bare minimum force as I like to GM it.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Military Sourcebook / Yearbook [was: Year of...?], you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.