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Message no. 1
From: Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:11:58 -0600
> I might throw my 2 cents in here at this point. Let me point out the glory of Heavy
Milspec Armor!
>
> Take a look at the armor rating. Obscene, isn't it? Now add a helmet. What's all that
armor add up to? Hmm.. Looks like 16/12. Now, keep in mind that this is hard armor.
"Hard armor? What's that mean?" you say? Well, simply put...
>
> Any attack with an unmodified power of 16 or less bounces off, period, >no
questions asked.
>

Any attack that goes against full ballistic armor, that is. Some
weapons go against 1/2 armor, although, by R2's rules for vehicle /
hardened armor, APDS does NOT reduce hard armorby 1/2.
Attacks against impact can get through, if strong enough. Explosions,
vehicle collisions, some people (trolls with katana's?) / creatures
(that awakened armadillo / nuclear tank comes to mind- how do the
Rangers handle THOSE? Airstrikes?)
Even worse are attacks that go against 1/2 impact- elemental DM's, shock
weapons, and the like.
Some "attacks" just immobalize, like avalanches, net guns, pit traps,
snares, and good old fashioned grapling. And good old fashioned combat
magic, or magic that REMOVES the armor, work fine.

Bold (or insane) criminals might try to trap a ranger JUST for the
armor, plus the cyber or foci. They'd get caught, most likely, but
still,thearmor doesn't make you invulnerable (good to know if your
players get any for thier PC's and you don't want to Lonestar using
Great Dragons in downtown Seattle / where-ever )
Message no. 2
From: Grahamdrew <grahamdrew@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:39:58 -0500
a strategicly placed tripwire or two can do the trick :-)
heh I need a WHAT to get back up!?
--
Disclaimer: My mind is so fragmented by random excursions into a
wilderness of abstractions and incipient ideas that the
practical purposes of the moment are often submerged in my consciousness
and I don't know what I'm doing.
Message no. 3
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:45:52 -0500
Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.net> said:
>
> Some "attacks" just immobalize, like avalanches, net guns, pit traps,
> snares, and good old fashioned grapling. And good old fashioned combat
> magic, or magic that REMOVES the armor, work fine.
>
> Bold (or insane) criminals might try to trap a ranger JUST for the
> armor, plus the cyber or foci. They'd get caught, most likely, but
> still,thearmor doesn't make you invulnerable (good to know if your
> players get any for thier PC's and you don't want to Lonestar using
> Great Dragons in downtown Seattle / where-ever )

My mage would look at the 20+ million nuyen troll and immediately cast
Stunball 6. Without magical support, the troll would have a decent
chance of taking serious or deadly stun. Then my mage would look for
the serious opposition, the magically active ones.

Combat spells ignore armor. Mana combat spells are resisted by
Willpower. Trolls are not known for having a high willpower. Heavily
augmented trolls may get their Willpower up to 6 or so, but not
significantly higher. Any decent mage with the right spell can take
out (or seriously damage) the troll.

IMHO, there would be a LOT of poor mages looking for this troll. If he
has 20 million nuyen worth of cyberware, he's got to be worth at least
a few million to a street doc. A mage that found the troll could simply
cast spells till the troll went down, because the troll may not even
notice the spellcasting.

IMHO, it is a waste to spend that much money on a single person. He
could slip in the tub and break his neck, get poisoned, or get geeked
by a mage. It is a LOT easier to kill one heavily augmented troll than
it is to kill 10 somewhat augmented trolls. And 10 somewhat augmented
trolls probably have the firepower of 5 heavily augmented trolls.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 4
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:43:41 -0600
>(that awakened armadillo / nuclear tank comes to mind- how do the
>Rangers handle THOSE? Airstrikes?)

They don't, I don't have PAoNA. With out seeing the critters stats I'd say
willpower resisted Deadly spells backed up by force 4 to 8 spirits. Other
then that I'd guess autocannons or maybe small amounts of chemical
weaponry. Other then that you could try to herd the thing somehow. If
someone would post the stats and shadowtalk I'd apperciate it.

SteveD
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 5
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:00:10 -0600
At 06:45 PM 98-03-25 -0500, you wrote:


>IMHO, it is a waste to spend that much money on a single person. He
>could slip in the tub and break his neck, get poisoned, or get geeked
>by a mage. It is a LOT easier to kill one heavily augmented troll than
>it is to kill 10 somewhat augmented trolls. And 10 somewhat augmented
>trolls probably have the firepower of 5 heavily augmented trolls.
>
The problem isn't getting 10 somewhat augmentd trolls it getting them were
they need to go.

SteveD

>--
>Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
>First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
>standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:11:56 +0100
Brian Moore said on 18:45/25 Mar 98...

> My mage would look at the 20+ million nuyen troll and immediately cast
> Stunball 6. Without magical support, the troll would have a decent
> chance of taking serious or deadly stun. Then my mage would look for
> the serious opposition, the magically active ones.

Note that you will have a penalty to your TN for casting a spell at a
cyberzombie, equal to twice the absolute Essence value... As the shaman in
my campaign found out when he tried to heal one -- an Essence of -2.6
gives a Treat spell a very nice TN :)

> Combat spells ignore armor. Mana combat spells are resisted by
> Willpower. Trolls are not known for having a high willpower. Heavily
> augmented trolls may get their Willpower up to 6 or so, but not
> significantly higher. Any decent mage with the right spell can take
> out (or seriously damage) the troll.

A cyberzombie has a minimum Willpower of 4, plus twice the absolute
Essence value, and you're quickly looking at TNs of 8+ to cast those
spells. The cyberzombie still won't like it, I guess, because
he/she^H^H^H^H^H^H it only has 4 dice to resist, but your spell would most
likely be a lot less effective than you expect it to be.

OTOH, attacking the zombie from astral space shouldn't be too much of a
problem.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 7
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 05:30:58 -0500
>Note that you will have a penalty to your TN for casting a spell at a
>cyberzombie, equal to twice the absolute Essence value... As the shaman in
>my campaign found out when he tried to heal one -- an Essence of -2.6
>gives a Treat spell a very nice TN :)

Ayup, yup, I like them cyberzombies, yup, yup. :)

>OTOH, attacking the zombie from astral space shouldn't be too much of a
>problem.

Hold on a minute... CZ's are active enough to be attacked from the Astral?
Did
I miss something? (Probably, considering my tendancy as a GM to read only what
I want to see...)

Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm

Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
UIN: 1864690
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Message no. 8
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:36:45 -0500
Gurth <gurth@******.NL> said:
> Brian Moore said on 18:45/25 Mar 98...
>
> > My mage would look at the 20+ million nuyen troll and immediately cast
> > Stunball 6. Without magical support, the troll would have a decent
> > chance of taking serious or deadly stun. Then my mage would look for
> > the serious opposition, the magically active ones.
>
> Note that you will have a penalty to your TN for casting a spell at a
> cyberzombie, equal to twice the absolute Essence value... As the shaman in
> my campaign found out when he tried to heal one -- an Essence of -2.6
> gives a Treat spell a very nice TN :)

One of us is confused... I don't recall him saying that the troll was
a cyberzombie. I thought it was just REALLY loaded with cyberware
(like 0 < essence < 1) and bioware.

> > Combat spells ignore armor. Mana combat spells are resisted by
> > Willpower. Trolls are not known for having a high willpower. Heavily
> > augmented trolls may get their Willpower up to 6 or so, but not
> > significantly higher. Any decent mage with the right spell can take
> > out (or seriously damage) the troll.
>
> A cyberzombie has a minimum Willpower of 4, plus twice the absolute
> Essence value, and you're quickly looking at TNs of 8+ to cast those
> spells. The cyberzombie still won't like it, I guess, because
> he/she^H^H^H^H^H^H it only has 4 dice to resist, but your spell would most
> likely be a lot less effective than you expect it to be.

I think you can get +2 or so to Willpower with certain cyber and bioware,
so the troll would likely have a 6 Willpower or so. If it IS a zombie,
then the TN modifier would probably put the spell TNs up to 10 or so.
That would make it real tough. But success on Stunball means a Serious
stun. I hope I'm never in that position.

> OTOH, attacking the zombie from astral space shouldn't be too much of a
> problem.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:39:50 +0100
Brian Moore said on 11:36/26 Mar 98...

> One of us is confused... I don't recall him saying that the troll was
> a cyberzombie. I thought it was just REALLY loaded with cyberware
> (like 0 < essence < 1) and bioware.

While writing that post, I was wondering whether the troll in question was
a cyberzombie myself... I can't remember :) Let's chalk it up to the
wonders of thread evolution.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:39:50 +0100
Craig J Wilhelm Jr said on 5:30/26 Mar 98...

> >OTOH, attacking the zombie from astral space shouldn't be too much of a
> >problem.
>
> Hold on a minute... CZ's are active enough to be attacked from the
> Astral? Did I miss something? (Probably, considering my tendancy as a GM
> to read only what I want to see...)

Cyberzombies are active on the astral plane, but don't get astral
perception. It's a side-effect of the magics used to create the zombie in
the first place.

I've got a CZ PC walking around, so I have to know their weaknesses :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 11
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:54:26 -0500
>Cyberzombies are active on the astral plane, but don't get astral
>perception. It's a side-effect of the magics used to create the zombie in
>the first place.

Blargh! Damn... My players are going to love this... But it does give me an
avenue to attack any CZ pcs

>I've got a CZ PC walking around, so I have to know their weaknesses :)

One of the PC's in my game is working real hard to go down the zombie road,
he's one of those types that refuses to do things half way. Have any advice
for
me, anything I should watch out for? How hard should I make it for him to get
what he wants? I tend to give my players what they really want, but only after
they bug me so hard and so long that they become a real fux0ring pain in the
ass.

Any help would be appreciated.


Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm

Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
UIN: 1864690
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v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
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Message no. 12
From: Paul Yan <bushidoboy@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Milspec hardened armor
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:39:52 -0800
---Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
wrote:
>
> >Cyberzombies are active on the astral plane,
but don't get astral
> >perception. It's a side-effect of the magics
used to create the zombie in
> >the first place.
>
> Blargh! Damn... My players are going to love
this... But it does give me an
> avenue to attack any CZ pcs
>
> >I've got a CZ PC walking around, so I have to
know their weaknesses :)
>
> One of the PC's in my game is working real
hard to go down the zombie road,
> he's one of those types that refuses to do
things half way. Have any advice
> for
> me, anything I should watch out for? How hard
should I make it for him to get
> what he wants? I tend to give my players what
they really want, but only after
> they bug me so hard and so long that they
become a real fux0ring pain in the
> ass.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
Yeah, Don't give it to him. He wants it
really bad, then kill the character and then
make him do a new one. If it is who I think,
(Nevermore), let's not have it done. A CZ would
IMO ruin the balance of the game. Some stuff to
look out for would be that of a huge stockpiling
of cash and resources and as well as heavy
research and mana building.
Craig, your a GM, that stands for God
Machine. You do what you want!!! The players
are in it for fun, not for munchkining rules and
games.

-Paul H. Yan a.k.a. Bushidoboy@**********.com/
==={=============='

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