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Message no. 1
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 20:08:36 -0500
At 07:06 PM 11/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
>According to abortion_engine, at 10:44 on 26 Nov 99, the word on
>the street was...
>
> > Why does FASA/Ral Partha make SR minis?
>
>Because there is a market for 25 mm figures (yes, I call them 25 mm even
>though they tend to be 28 mm+) among roleplayers.

Actually, the Ral Partha Fantasy figs (Including the SR line) are actually
25 mm, I believe...

As opposed to GW's 30+ mm scale that pretends to be 28 mm :]

> > Does anyone play SR with miniatures?
>
>Probably... I've used them a few times, but mainly because we were playing
>in my room where I have the figures handy. They are too much of a hassle
>to take along to someone else's place, certainly if I also have to take my
>books. But that's neither here nor there -- I'm fairly certain there are
>plenty of people who use miniatures in RPG sessions.

I've found them useful only during Demo's at the cons, TBH... Though there
have been a few instances when having some of my own would have been handy
in my RL games... <shrug> On the rare occasion I feel it necessary to use
some kind of Miniature Representation, the little 6 mm d6's work out just
fine...

Though I probably would pick up some of the mini's if I had the extra $$.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 2
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 04:57:37 -0500
At 02:06 AM 11/27/99 -0500, MC23 wrote:

>[<SNIP>
> Bullshit.
></SNIP>

You know... I wonder if somehow I should be offended here :]

<grin>

Bull (At least say Bulldrek :))
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 3
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:44:49 -0500
Since everyone is talking about miniatures, I figure I might as well ask a
question I've been thinking about for quite a while. [Itemised for your
replying convenience.]

Why does FASA/Ral Partha make SR minis?

Does anyone play SR with miniatures?

Besides whatever that thing was that came out [DMZ?] a long time ago with
the paper figures, is there a verison of SR that uses minis?

Or do people just use the minis to flesh out their [primarily paper-based]
game?

We've never used minis for anything, and probably won't, but I am curious
enough about the phenomenon to know more.
___________________________________
I told you this morality of mine would kill us all.
Message no. 4
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:24:17 -0500
At 10:44 AM 11/26/99 -0500, abortion_engine wrote:
>Does anyone play SR with miniatures?

I bought a few sets of SR miniatures a while back. Never painted any of
them. Just bought them because they were SR and I was either in High
School or College so didn't understand the concept of saving money.
(:

>Besides whatever that thing was that came out [DMZ?] a long time ago with
>the paper figures, is there a verison of SR that uses minis?

No, not that I'm aware of.

>Or do people just use the minis to flesh out their [primarily paper-based]
>game?

That's what I bought mine for. Well...ok, first I bought them just to have
them. (:
Then I bought more thinking to use them during combat. Not to be exact or
anything but to just be able to drop down some figures and say ok, this is
where everyone is. So far though I've never actually done that and since
I'm not playing regularly (again, *sniff*) I don't know if I really ever will.


--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 5
From: Anders Swenson anders@**********.com
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:34:03 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
To: Shadowrun Newslist <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 1999 7:44 AM
Subject: Miniatures : SR


> Since everyone is talking about miniatures, I figure I might as well ask a
> question I've been thinking about for quite a while. [Itemised for your
> replying convenience.]
>
> Why does FASA/Ral Partha make SR minis?
>
> Does anyone play SR with miniatures?
>
> Besides whatever that thing was that came out [DMZ?] a long time ago with
> the paper figures, is there a verison of SR that uses minis?
>
> Or do people just use the minis to flesh out their [primarily paper-based]
> game?
>
> We've never used minis for anything, and probably won't, but I am curious
> enough about the phenomenon to know more.

I like to paint and collect minis. Sort of manual therepy, y'know.
Unfortunately, FASA and RP seem to have run out of new ideas for SR figs, I
suppose that's why there haven't been any new ones for a while.

I incorporate minis into my games every chance I get, since I believe that
they add to the players ability to get into the game and be clear as to what
is going on. Some of my players resist this mightily. --Anders
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:06:28 +0100
According to abortion_engine, at 10:44 on 26 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> Why does FASA/Ral Partha make SR minis?

Because there is a market for 25 mm figures (yes, I call them 25 mm even
though they tend to be 28 mm+) among roleplayers.

> Does anyone play SR with miniatures?

Probably... I've used them a few times, but mainly because we were playing
in my room where I have the figures handy. They are too much of a hassle
to take along to someone else's place, certainly if I also have to take my
books. But that's neither here nor there -- I'm fairly certain there are
plenty of people who use miniatures in RPG sessions.

> Besides whatever that thing was that came out [DMZ?] a long time ago with
> the paper figures, is there a verison of SR that uses minis?

None by FASA.

> Or do people just use the minis to flesh out their [primarily paper-based]
> game?

That's the main use, I think. But I find it's just as easy to sketch the
locations of the characters as it is to use miniatures.


--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is misschien kankerverwekkend, maar last heb je d'r niet van.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Dave Mowbray dave_mowbray@*****.com
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:16:02 -0500
> Since everyone is talking about miniatures, I figure I might
> as well ask a
> question I've been thinking about for quite a while.
> [Itemised for your
> replying convenience.]
>
> Why does FASA/Ral Partha make SR minis?
>
> Does anyone play SR with miniatures?
>
> Besides whatever that thing was that came out [DMZ?] a long
> time ago with
> the paper figures, is there a verison of SR that uses minis?
>
> Or do people just use the minis to flesh out their [primarily
> paper-based]
> game?
>
> We've never used minis for anything, and probably won't, but
> I am curious
> enough about the phenomenon to know more.

I suppose miniatures would be good for confusing combat situations, but it's
just as easy to use non-d6 dice from the D&D days... cheaper too...
I find that using some sort of place holder (miniatures, other dice, or
anything else) really helps avoid frustrating situations where your players
say, "What?!! I thought he couldn't see me!!!" (Generally said after being
hurt in some way shape or form.)
-Dave
Message no. 8
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 02:06:56 -0500
Once upon a time, abortion_engine wrote;

>Since everyone is talking about miniatures, I figure I might as well ask a
>question I've been thinking about for quite a while. [Itemised for your
>replying convenience.]
>
>Why does FASA/Ral Partha make SR minis?

The same reason so many companies make so many for AD&D.

>Does anyone play SR with miniatures?

Yes.

>Besides whatever that thing was that came out [DMZ?] a long time ago with
>the paper figures, is there a verison of SR that uses minis?

There were a few modules that incorporated DMZ. And there was Sprawl
Maps as well.

>Or do people just use the minis to flesh out their [primarily paper-based]
>game?

Just like they draw pictures for their [primarily cerebral-based]
game.

>We've never used minis for anything, and probably won't, but I am curious
>enough about the phenomenon to know more.

Bullshit. You are just trying to further your values of how the game
should be played by asking us in such a contemptuous way. But I'd thought
I'd humor you anyway.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Say what you mean, and say it mean!"
-Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, Ramrod

I am MC23
Message no. 9
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 01:00:05 -0800
From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date sent: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:44:49 -0500


> Since everyone is talking about miniatures, I figure I might as well ask a
> question I've been thinking about for quite a while. [Itemised for your
> replying convenience.]
>
> Why does FASA/Ral Partha make SR minis?
>
> Does anyone play SR with miniatures?
>
> Besides whatever that thing was that came out [DMZ?] a long time ago with
> the paper figures, is there a verison of SR that uses minis?
>
> Or do people just use the minis to flesh out their [primarily paper-based]
> game?
>
> We've never used minis for anything, and probably won't, but I am curious
> enough about the phenomenon to know more.

I have used minatures in role-playing games for close to 25years. To date all
of the groups I have gamed with have done so. Many because I was willing to
transport figures to the game. In many cases special figures were converted
and painted to resemble established characters both PCs and major vilians. I
also wargame with minatures mainly in the Napoleonic period. That involves a
lot of repetitious painting so one or two SR figures on the paint table can liven
things up.

For the most part we use the figures on either a 1 inch square or hex grided
vinyal mat which has the floor plan drawn on it with eraseable markers. On it
are placed all of the PSc and any of the opposition that can be seen. A scale
is anounced and the fire fight begins.

By using this type of set up, both as a GM and player, I have found that a lot
of questions are answered quickly and consisantly. Things like, were is
everyboy in relation to my character? Or what is the range to.... or how far
is... how wide is. As a player it means I get a clear picture of the known
factors in the fire fight. As a GM it is that much less I need to keep track of or
to remember. And it tended to make the firefights go quicker, players stated
and executed their actions quickly and without a lot of questions.

The big down side to figures, besides transport is cost. Over the years I have
come up with a varity of solutions.

The first is never get rid of a painted figure, it may be useable for some other
game in the future. Among the figures that are often used at Shadowrun
games are some I painted for Twlight 2000, Call of Cathou, Dark Conspersy,
several diferent spy type games and Traveler (all versions) as well as RP
Shadowrun line.

Second--- Every body sould help supply figures at least for thier charactors.
If you really can't paint then buy some and have someone else paint them for
you. But my experence is that most people can paint well enough to produce
acceptable figures. As an aside if someone brings a painted figure you need
to do two things 1 use it if at all possible 2. find something positive to say
about it. New painters need all the encouragement they can get.

Third--- mount the figure on a base. Beside making the figurs more stable,
they are easier to handle and it protects the paint job. Which brings up a
hint. Spray the finshed figure with a coat of clear lacquer and then if you
prefer a flat finish like I do spray the figure with Dull Coat. This does several
things, clear lacquer is stronger than Dull Coat, When the figure stats to get
shiny (because the Dull Coat has been worn off) you give them another coat
of Dull Coat. This is much easier then touching up a chipped paint job.

Fourth---Use other things to supplement the figures you have, I have a set of
small numbered poker chips (3/4 in) that we use for the cast of thosands.
They work better then dice as it is easier to keep track of which is which and
because one color can be assigned to the opposistion, one to the by-
standers and one to the unknowns. For vehicles we either use the backs of
business cards with a top view schetched on and the figures are placed on
top of thier locations. Or Matchbox vehicles with an off the map diagram that
indicates who is sitting where. Some where I got some tear dropped shapped
clear plastic pieces that are used to show characters on motorcycles or
horses (I have played wild west too). I also have some "flying" stands, two
clear plastic squares seperated by a piece of clear plast rod, that are used to
show a character that is "flying" (i.e. grav belt, wings, rocket pack or magic
spell).

Fifth-- Always be on the look out for figures, particularly in "junk" bins and
at
convention flea markets. Look at all the lines, figures can be adapted,
modified and or converted to fit your particular world.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:01:32 +0100
According to Bull, at 20:08 on 9 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> >Because there is a market for 25 mm figures (yes, I call them 25 mm even
> >though they tend to be 28 mm+) among roleplayers.
>
> Actually, the Ral Partha Fantasy figs (Including the SR line) are actually
> 25 mm, I believe...

Measuring a few random Partha Shadowrun figures of humans and elves, they
come out to 30 mm, 30 mm, 28 mm, 31 mm, and 31 mm. (This is from the top
of the base to the top of the figure's hair, BTW.) Just about the only
true 25 mm figures you'll find these days are historical wargames figures,
and soft plastic "toy" figures.

> As opposed to GW's 30+ mm scale that pretends to be 28 mm :]

I never liked their style anyway :)

> I've found them useful only during Demo's at the cons, TBH...

Same here. I've done a few SR demos at a small convention here, and a
model terrain with figures is much better to interest people with than a
few papers and dice are...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is misschien kankerverwekkend, maar last heb je d'r niet van.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:30:22 -0800
"David Hinkley" <dhinkley@***.org> writes:

> Fourth---Use other things to supplement the figures you have, I have a set of
> small numbered poker chips (3/4 in) that we use for the cast of thosands.
> They work better then dice as it is easier to keep track of which is which and
> because one color can be assigned to the opposistion, one to the by-
> standers and one to the unknowns.


Years ago I found the game "Heroquest" on sale at Toys R Us
for cheap, so I bought four sets. We now have a big tub of
plastic orks, goblins, chaos warriors, and character-types, each
one with a number in permanent marker. It's easy to use
different ones for different purposes, and when we're done
we can just throw 'em back in the tub. The various props that
came with the game (bookshelves, altars, tables, etc.) are
useful too.

For characters, we use painted figures -- each character has
his own custom painted figure that we've used for years. It
works out very well for us. We use figures for all combat
situations, and sometimes for other scenes where it's important
to know where everyone is in relation to each other.

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 12
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:09:53 -0800
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Date sent: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:01:32 +0100
Subject: Re: Miniatures : SR
Priority: normal
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> According to Bull, at 20:08 on 9 Nov 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > >Because there is a market for 25 mm figures (yes, I call them 25 mm even
> > >though they tend to be 28 mm+) among roleplayers.
> >
> > Actually, the Ral Partha Fantasy figs (Including the SR line) are actually
> > 25 mm, I believe...
>
> Measuring a few random Partha Shadowrun figures of humans and elves, they
> come out to 30 mm, 30 mm, 28 mm, 31 mm, and 31 mm. (This is from the top
> of the base to the top of the figure's hair, BTW.) Just about the only
> true 25 mm figures you'll find these days are historical wargames figures,
> and soft plastic "toy" figures.

Welcome to another long running controvercy, maybe not as well known as
the 9mm vs .45 ACP one, but just as unresovleable. The idea of expressing
the scale of figures in terms of their height dates back at least as far as the
1940s. It seems to be an attempt for minatures makers to establish a
standard so that figures from different makers would look OK togeather inthe
same diorama. The first size was 54mm, (these are display rather then
wargames figures). At first the figure of an averaged sized man, was to
measure 54mm from the bottom of the feet to the center of the eyes. This
raise the question of what averaged sized is, when and where. Plus some
makers started measuring to the top of the head. While others measured to
the top of the hat. This last method did not work wekk when creating a figure
of say a Potsam Grenadier (6+foot tall with a tall miter hat). To the best of my
knowledge the display figure controversy has not been resolved. It has also
existed with wargames figures,for as long as I can remember. Particuarly as
it is somewhat easier to detail a larger figure then a small one. Plus there is
the question of proporsion slim vs fat, casting technology (there is a limit as
to how thin a sword or bayonet can be) and of course just how big is an ork,
a giant or other fantasy beastie?
Then you ad the other factor, price. The first of the true wargames
figures where 30mm. Then someone, Scruby I think, brought out a line of
20mm figures that were cheaper. Many of those playing with 30s would not
even consider allowing a 20 anywhere near a game table. But the scale
caught on, but grew to about 25mm and then Mini-Fig labeled its line as
25mm. Others followed, sort of, the range for 25s running from 23-28mm.
Then came 15mm, again an attempt to get more figures for less money and
as a way to make room on a game table for larger battles. There is a widith
limit of about 4 to 5 1/2 feet, for a workable table. Wider and you can not
easily reach the figures in the middle for measuring or movement. They grew
in detail, size, and price. About the same time, D&D came out and the
consept of using figures started to expand, this caused a expantion of 25mm
as the scale for fantasy figures. The GW entered the picture with its slightly
larger figures, which have grown. Partly for artistic reasons, and partly for
commerical. That is they didn't want "their" game played with some one elses
figures.

Hope this information is helpful.


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 13
From: abortion_engine@*******.com abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:15:57 -0500
> >We've never used minis for anything, and
probably won't, but I am curious
> >enough about the phenomenon to know more.
>
> Bullshit. You are just trying to further
your values of how the game
> should be played by asking us in such a
contemptuous way. But I'd thought
> I'd humor you anyway.

Actually, no; I really was curious. Sorry to
disappoint.

And thank you, so much, for your horribly
enlightening responses. There's nothing I like
more than someone wasting my time by humoring me.

> "Say what you mean, and say it
mean!"
> -Scraping Foetus off
the Wheel, Ramrod

And I thought I was the only person here who
listened to Foetus, aka Foetus Over Frisco, Foetus
Uber Frisco, Foetus Under Glass, Scraping Foetus
off the Wheel, You've got Foetus on your Breath,
Phillip and His Foetus Vibrations, Foetus Art
Terrorism, The Foetus Of Excellence, Foetus, Inc.,
The Foetus All-Nude Review, Foetus Corruptus,
Foetus Interruptus, Foetus In Excelsis Corruptus
Deluxe, Foetus Symphony Orchestra...

Did I miss any? <g>
Message no. 14
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: Miniatures : SR
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:38:05 -0600
David Hinkley wrote:
>
> From: "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com>
> Subject: Miniatures : SR
> Date sent: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:44:49 -0500
>
> > Since everyone is talking about miniatures, I figure I might as well ask a
> > question I've been thinking about for quite a while. [Itemised for your
> > replying convenience.]
> >
> > Why does FASA/Ral Partha make SR minis?
> >
> > Does anyone play SR with miniatures?
> >
> > Besides whatever that thing was that came out [DMZ?] a long time ago with
> > the paper figures, is there a verison of SR that uses minis?
> >
> > Or do people just use the minis to flesh out their [primarily paper-based]
> > game?
> >
> > We've never used minis for anything, and probably won't, but I am curious
> > enough about the phenomenon to know more.
>
> I have used minatures in role-playing games for close to 25years. To date all
> of the groups I have gamed with have done so. Many because I was willing to
> transport figures to the game. In many cases special figures were converted
> and painted to resemble established characters both PCs and major vilians. I
> also wargame with minatures mainly in the Napoleonic period. That involves a
> lot of repetitious painting so one or two SR figures on the paint table can liven
> things up.
>
> For the most part we use the figures on either a 1 inch square or hex grided
> vinyal mat which has the floor plan drawn on it with eraseable markers. On it
> are placed all of the PSc and any of the opposition that can be seen. A scale
> is anounced and the fire fight begins.
>
> By using this type of set up, both as a GM and player, I have found that a lot
> of questions are answered quickly and consisantly. Things like, were is
> everyboy in relation to my character? Or what is the range to.... or how far
> is... how wide is. As a player it means I get a clear picture of the known
> factors in the fire fight. As a GM it is that much less I need to keep track of or
> to remember. And it tended to make the firefights go quicker, players stated
> and executed their actions quickly and without a lot of questions.

Here, here! I have been using miniatures for rpg for about two years now
and it is very useful for combat. For maps, I use a chessex vinyl map
that can be drawn on with overhead projector markers and easily wiped
off with some windex. Reusable, lightweight, and portable. Players begin
to appreciate distances and tactical considerations. Melee combat begins
to look less appealing because that map shows all those meters a
character is going to have to cross to whack the thug with a SMG. The
maps and minis help a lot, a regular player has painted up a dozen minis
rather well that the players use. I've been too lazy to paint up the bad
guys since they usually get smoked, but I will soon. Promise :-)


--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.

Further Reading

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Thwap!