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Message no. 1
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 13:20:13 CDT
> Can you fit gas vents to the barrels.
>
> We decided that you probobly could not due to build up of heat
> within the barrels which the rotating would not cool sufficiently.
>
> You may take this as munchkinism But we were just looking for a
> way to make the minigun a viable weapon for use...
>
> Cheers,
> Paul.


No, I can't think of a reason that you couldn't put gas venting in
a minigun. It might require a slightly different design, and so cost more,
not including the fact miniguns have 6(?) barrels... but it can be done.
Not the most subtle gun ever invented, but damn effective!

-- CrossFire --
Message no. 2
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Miniguns
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 13:46:20 +1000
GRANITE writes:

> > that you don't survive some things (like running into
> > concentrated fire of a Vindicator).
>
> I used one of those before..I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with
> it..all those rounds add up to some outragous recoil modifiers...

In 1st ed it was like this, as they always fired the maximum number of
rounds. Then in 2nd ed, you were able to fire as many as you liked, which
was good, as you could just mince things. The FoF came out and screwed that
idea again, miniguns now fire 15 rounds if they 15 available. This means
even if you stick your vindicator on a gyro mount 7, with a gas vent 4, you
still get 4 uncompensated rounds. I cant remember if they are at +2 per
round or not though. Even so, you're right, you wont hit the broad side of a
barn.
Come to think of it, how would you put a gas vent on a minigun? The gas vent
sits on the barrel, so would you need 6, or would it be impracticle, as you
wouldnt be able to fit them all on?

Damion
Message no. 3
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 08:25:39 -0400
On Fri, 17 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> In 1st ed it was like this, as they always fired the maximum number of
> rounds. Then in 2nd ed, you were able to fire as many as you liked, which
> was good, as you could just mince things. The FoF came out and screwed that
> idea again, miniguns now fire 15 rounds if they 15 available.

If you have been using a vindicator with select the number of rounds to
fire rate of fire..you have been getting one over..In the SSC for SR2 on
pg 58 it sez that it has a fixed RoF of 15 RNDs..

> Come to think of it, how would you put a gas vent on a minigun? The gas vent
> sits on the barrel, so would you need 6, or would it be impracticle, as you
> wouldnt be able to fit them all on?


Sure you would..It does get expensive though...
------------------GRANITE
Message no. 4
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 1994 00:21:56 +1000
GRANITE writes:

> If you have been using a vindicator with select the number of rounds to
> fire rate of fire..you have been getting one over..In the SSC for SR2 on
> pg 58 it sez that it has a fixed RoF of 15 RNDs..

OK, i dont have SSC 2. But that makes miniguns particularily useless. You
need at least a strength of 11 plus improved deluxe gryo mount plus an
improved gas vent 4 (if you can get one -or six- on a minigun). And thats
using the optional strength/recoil rules from FoF. Not too useful a weapon
if you ask me.

Damion
Message no. 5
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 12:23:18 -0400
On Fri, 17 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:
(on the subject of vindicator miniguns)

> In 1st ed it was like this, as they always fired the maximum number of
> rounds. Then in 2nd ed, you were able to fire as many as you liked, which
> was good, as you could just mince things. The FoF came out and screwed that
> idea again, miniguns now fire 15 rounds if they 15 available. This means
> even if you stick your vindicator on a gyro mount 7, with a gas vent 4, you
> still get 4 uncompensated rounds. I cant remember if they are at +2 per
> round or not though. Even so, you're right, you wont hit the broad side of a
> barn.
> Come to think of it, how would you put a gas vent on a minigun? The gas vent
> sits on the barrel, so would you need 6, or would it be impracticle, as you
> wouldnt be able to fit them all on?
>
> Damion
>

For my campaign if someone is thinking of putting gas venting on a
minigun, they need to vent ALL of the barrels. They will all fit (if
you've ever seen what gas recoil comp looks like, you'll see it can be
fairly compact), but is gets expensive pretty quick.
As for being able to hit the broad side of a barn, that problem is a
problem with the Shadowrun autofire system, in which you either hit with
all of the rounds you capped off at some poor joker, or you miss
completely. There is no happy medium. The autofire rules need changing,
which I have done for my campaign. If you want to know about it, mail me
and I can give our house rules on the subject to you.

Marc
Message no. 6
From: "I.M. Legion" <legion@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 12:30:45 -0600
According to the DLoH, you *can* put gas vents on all barells of a minigun
and the bonus from all of the gasvents *is* cumulative. So with 6 Gas Vent IV's
you have 24 points of recoil compensation. This can still be increased with
strength and gyro-mounts (if I'm not mistaken).

--
Legion
Students for War & Oppression
Message no. 7
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 23:00:58 -0400
On Sat, 18 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> OK, i dont have SSC 2. But that makes miniguns particularily useless.

No Shit..I ripped off 15 Rnds into this group aand didn't hit a single
one [it was mounted on a drone] I actually killed a couple of the guys
with a Crusader MP [light pistol] Imagine that...That same drone bought
it a while later...
----------------------GRANITE
Message no. 8
From: Christopher Higgins <as812@*******.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 1994 13:15:17 -0400
>
>GRANITE writes:
>
>> If you have been using a vindicator with select the number of rounds to
>> fire rate of fire..you have been getting one over..In the SSC for SR2 on
>> pg 58 it sez that it has a fixed RoF of 15 RNDs..
>
>OK, i dont have SSC 2. But that makes miniguns particularily useless. You
>need at least a strength of 11 plus improved deluxe gryo mount plus an
>improved gas vent 4 (if you can get one -or six- on a minigun). And thats
>using the optional strength/recoil rules from FoF. Not too useful a weapon
>if you ask me.
>
>Damion
>
I think that you'd change your mind REAL quick if a Troll Sam is
pointing one at you :)
Christopher Higgins
Message no. 9
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Miniguns
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 13:47:20 +1000
Marc writes:

> As for being able to hit the broad side of a barn, that problem is a
> problem with the Shadowrun autofire system, in which you either hit with
> all of the rounds you capped off at some poor joker, or you miss
> completely. There is no happy medium. The autofire rules need changing,
> which I have done for my campaign. If you want to know about it, mail me
> and I can give our house rules on the subject to you.

Id like to know, as the autofire rules in SR seem to conflict with the
reasons for using autofire. More rounds in the air increases the chance of
any single round hitting the target. SR rules decrease the chance of hitting
the target, but do more damage.

Damion
Message no. 10
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Miniguns
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 14:17:46 +1000
Terry syas something about miniguns in Sr that I had never considered. Fire
the compensated rounds at what you wnt to hit, and the uncomopensated
rounds elsehwhere, good idea. Sorry for not quoting, but i read that in the
log.

Damion
Message no. 11
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Miniguns
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 13:44:40 +1000
Legion writes:

> According to the DLoH, you *can* put gas vents on all barells of a minigun
> and the bonus from all of the gasvents *is* cumulative. So with 6 Gas Vent
IV's
> you have 24 points of recoil compensation. This can still be increased with
> strength and gyro-mounts (if I'm not mistaken).

Why? only one gas vent is being used at a time. Its like having 6 smartgun
links and getting the bonus for all of them.

Damion
Message no. 12
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 03:36:52 -0700
PHYSICS ALERT! PHYSICS ALERT! ABORT! ABORT!

On Sun, 19 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Why? only one gas vent is being used at a time. Its like having 6 smartgun
> links and getting the bonus for all of them.

Force = Mass * Acceleration. Acceleration = Change in Velocity/
Change in Time. Now, since Momentum = Mass * Velocity, Newton's 2nd law
is really F = Change in *Momentum* / Change in Time. (F=ma assumes
constant mass; not true in rocketry)
Don't worry, I'm getting to my point. ;-)
Rearrange this equation, and you get Change in Momentum = Force *
Change in Time. Change in Momentum is what we call Impulse. This is the
stuff that travels from the breechblock to the handle, where, with a
little bit o' time, converts to momentum in your hand and recoil forces
felt.
Now, first minigun barrel fires, generating F. Some of this F is
counteracted by R, the recoil force dissipated in the gas vent. Now onto
the second barrel. It too generates F, minus R. Going around with all
barrels, we repeat this four more times.
Without gas venting, recoil is 6*F. With gas venting, recoil is
6 * (F-R). This recoil is distributed in 6 impulses, each of magnitude F
* change in time for uncompensated, or (F-R) * change in time for
compensated.
Therefore, recoil compensation should work as DLOH has indicated.

>
> Damion
>

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 01:56:07 +0930
>
> GRANITE writes:
>
> > > that you don't survive some things (like running into
> > > concentrated fire of a Vindicator).
> >
> > I used one of those before..I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with
> > it..all those rounds add up to some outragous recoil modifiers...
>
> In 1st ed it was like this, as they always fired the maximum number of
> rounds. Then in 2nd ed, you were able to fire as many as you liked, which
> was good, as you could just mince things. The FoF came out and screwed that
> idea again, miniguns now fire 15 rounds if they 15 available. This means
> even if you stick your vindicator on a gyro mount 7, with a gas vent 4, you
> still get 4 uncompensated rounds. I cant remember if they are at +2 per
> round or not though. Even so, you're right, you wont hit the broad side of a
> barn.
Why not use suppression-fire rules, and say you're shooting in the general
area? Problem solved.
Also, don't vehicles and other "solid" mounts provide a lot more recoil
compensation? I don't think a Vindicator is really meant to be a portable
weapon.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 14
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 11:20:49 +0100
>
> GRANITE writes:
>
> > If you have been using a vindicator with select the number of rounds to
> > fire rate of fire..you have been getting one over..In the SSC for SR2 on
> > pg 58 it sez that it has a fixed RoF of 15 RNDs..
>
> OK, i dont have SSC 2. But that makes miniguns particularily useless. You
> need at least a strength of 11 plus improved deluxe gryo mount plus an
> improved gas vent 4 (if you can get one -or six- on a minigun). And thats
> using the optional strength/recoil rules from FoF. Not too useful a weapon
> if you ask me.
>
> Damion
>
Hi everyone,
I'm new to this mailing list but I think it's really good that
something like this exists, a mailing list for one of my favourite
roleplaying games, wow.

Anyway I thought I'd put my 2 nuyen into the minigun debate.

The RBB rules for vehicle combat
specify that recoil affects do not affect sensor targeting.
I could not believe it so I re-read it several times, but there
it was. So if a minigun is vehicle mounted and uses sensor
targetting it can shred most other vehicles, except panzers
and tanks and things. I don't have
access to the rules at the moment but this is my recollection
and the use I put it to at the time. As a vehicle weapon it's
very good (ask my rigger Max), as a personal weapon it's a bit
silly (less'n of course your a troll).

Oh yes, in FoF it says that people have a sig of 8 (I think)
so you appear to be able to sensor target them as well.

Hope that makes sense

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Message no. 15
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 09:52:52 -0400
On Mon, 20 Jun 1994, Gareth Owen wrote:
> The RBB rules for vehicle combat
> specify that recoil affects do not affect sensor targeting.
> I could not believe it so I re-read it several times, but there
> it was. So if a minigun is vehicle mounted and uses sensor
> targetting it can shred most other vehicles, except panzers......
> GLO
>
So is this in the Core rules or somewhere else..I want to read this part
but since you already know where it is there is no reason I should do a
big reasearch project...
---------------------GRANITE
Message no. 16
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 15:25:40 +0100
>
> On Mon, 20 Jun 1994, Gareth Owen wrote:
> > The RBB rules for vehicle combat
> > specify that recoil affects do not affect sensor targeting.
> > I could not believe it so I re-read it several times, but there
> > it was. So if a minigun is vehicle mounted and uses sensor
> > targetting it can shred most other vehicles, except panzers......
> > GLO
> >
> So is this in the Core rules or somewhere else..I want to read this part
> but since you already know where it is there is no reason I should do a
> big reasearch project...
> ---------------------GRANITE
>
>
It's in the Rigger Black Book (1st Edition), I've not seen anything
to contradict it elsewhere, I shall dig out a page reference tonight
for you (I don't have access to my rulebooks etc at the moment).

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Message no. 17
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 12:43:18 -0400
On Mon, 20 Jun 1994, Gareth Owen wrote:

> >

> It's in the Rigger Black Book (1st Edition), I've not seen anything
> to contradict it elsewhere, I shall dig out a page reference tonight
> for you (I don't have access to my rulebooks etc at the moment).
>
> GLO
>
> --
> Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
>
Thanks..I will look it up in the RBB 2 when you send the page ref and we
will see if they are still the same or what..
---------------------GRANITE
Message no. 18
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 12:06:05 -0700
On Sun, 19 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Legion writes:
>
> > According to the DLoH, you *can* put gas vents on all barells of a minigun

> Why? only one gas vent is being used at a time. Its like having 6 smartgun
> links and getting the bonus for all of them.
>
Actually, the reason that the IGV-4's are cumulative is the same reason
that the recoil is cumulative. If you visualize, 6 recoiling barrels
OK? Now each barrel has it's recoil cut by 4, OK? Six barrels, times 4,
comes out 24. That would tame the puppy right there.

Each barrel has to be vented. The recoil adds up, so the venting adds up
too. Nifty.

Ivy (Di'mon's has one of those things, and she just headed into the
armorer's shop with it, and a big wicked grin <Wicked Grin>)

Ivy
Message no. 19
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 10:06:55 +0100
>
> On Mon, 20 Jun 1994, Gareth Owen wrote:
> > It's in the Rigger Black Book (1st Edition), I've not seen anything
> > to contradict it elsewhere, I shall dig out a page reference tonight
> > for you (I don't have access to my rulebooks etc at the moment).
> >
> > GLO
> >
> Thanks..I will look it up in the RBB 2 when you send the page ref and we
> will see if they are still the same or what..
> ---------------------GRANITE

Right, got it. It's on page 106 of my RBB (1st edition).
To summarize, when using sensor enhanced targeting:
dice rolled is equal to skill plus sensor rating
target number is signature of target, whatever the range
the only other modifiers are:
urban environment, LOS, damage to firing vehicle and ECM.

It's pretty much as I remember it, I'd be intersted to
see if it's been revised at all.

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Message no. 20
From: Alexander Borghgraef <Alexander.Borghgraef@***.AC.BE>
Subject: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 14:04:59 --100
SRII says miniguns can fire up to 15 rounds / complex action and that they use
heavy weapons rules.What's the maximum rounds a normal machinegun can fire
and what's the advantage of miniguns in SRII (I know what their advantage in
real life is: 6000 rounds/minute.BTW I don't think 15 rounds/combat phase
equals that.)
Message no. 21
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 00:07:07 +0000
Alexander writes:

> SRII says miniguns can fire up to 15 rounds / complex action and that they
> use heavy weapons rules. What's the maximum rounds a normal machinegun can
> fire

You mean a _normal_ (as in real) or a regular SR machinegine gun?

If its a normal SR machinegun, then its 10 rounds per action, if its a real
machinegun, then I know some SMGs fire at about 600 rpm, but some other gun
psycho person will be able to tell you more than I can.

> and what's the advantage of miniguns in SRII (I know what their advantage in
> real life is: 6000 rounds/minute.BTW I don't think 15 rounds/combat phase
> equals that.)

The only advantage I can see in Sr is exactly that. You get 15 rounds per
action. You can shoot more people and do more damage. And don't forget the
intimidation factor... If anyone sees a minigun, they dive for cover unless
they are really dumb, or super tough. 15 rounds per combat phase would probably
exceed 6000 rpm, but sinse you only get one attack every 10 phases, then SRs
15 rounds per phase is woefully low compared to the real 6000 rpm. Don't forget
that miniguns have superior recoil reduction capabilites too; you can stick a
gas vent on each barrel.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 22
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 10:49:34 -0400
>>>>> "Damion" == Damion Milliken
<u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU> writes:

Damion> You mean a _normal_ (as in real) or a regular SR machinegine gun?

Heh!

Damion> If its a normal SR machinegun, then its 10 rounds per action, if
Damion> its a real machinegun, then I know some SMGs fire at about 600 rpm,
Damion> but some other gun psycho person will be able to tell you more than
Damion> I can.

600 to 800 rounds per minute is a rough spread for SMGs and machine
pistols. The spread for assault rifles is 600 to 900 rounds per minute
(usually with some kind of limiter to keep you from emptying the magazine
too fast). Weapons like the G-11 firing small caliber caseless rounds can
reach 1100+ rounds per minute.

Remember one very important thing: many of the "restrictions" in Shadowrun
exist to keep things playable and moving quickly. In the Real World(TM) you
can empty the magazine (that's usually 20 to 30 rounds) of most fully-
automatic small arms in three to five seconds, the length of a Shadowrun
combat turn. But do you really want to be spending your time figuring the
recoil penalties for that? Didn't think so.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |"Wot we gonna do tonight, Brain?"
"The same
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|thing we do every night, Pinky, try to take
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |over the world!"
Message no. 23
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 16:07:20 +0100
>
> > SRII says miniguns can fire up to 15 rounds / complex action and that they
> You mean a _normal_ (as in real) or a regular SR machinegine gun?
> If its a normal SR machinegun, then its 10 rounds per action, if its a real
> machinegun, then I know some SMGs fire at about 600 rpm, but some other gun
> psycho person will be able to tell you more than I can.
<CHOP>Just grab your trusty 'Janes Guide to light infantry
weapons' and viola!
most SMG's are 600rpm, the miniUzi is 750rpm, and the glock18
can cut 1200rpm...the G11 is 2000rpm and miniguns are 3000 to
6000 rounds per minute...
> > and what's the advantage of miniguns in SRII (I know what their advantage in
> > real life is: 6000 rounds/minute.BTW I don't think 15 rounds/combat phase
> > equals that.)
>
> The only advantage I can see in Sr is exactly that. You get 15 rounds per
> action. You can shoot more people and do more damage. And don't forget the
> intimidation factor... If anyone sees a minigun, they dive for cover unless
> they are really dumb, or super tough. 15 rounds per combat phase would
probably
> exceed 6000 rpm, but sinse you only get one attack every 10 phases, then SRs
<CHOP> The SR autofire rules are a little Dodgy , as you use
autofire to increase your chances of hitting one or more
targets, but the rules make it harder to hit the more you fire...
EG using a real MAC10 at 3m range (its real operational range),
you let off a long burst of 15 rds...if you aim at the feet, the
rounds will walk up the target, giving you multiple hits. DEAD
In SR, you would have to roll TN 4+15  to hit, and do 22D ish

One system i use is each success rolled is a bullet hit, but
with no sucesses behind it, as you can't aim a burst that well.
A short burst is dice= skill
meduim =skill x 2
long =skillx 3 (complex action)
You hit on base TN for range+cover etc...
So a Skill 6 sammie with an SMG could lead hose at close range,
roll 18 dice and hit on 4+. thats 9 hits,quite enough to kill
one target or injure a group its swept across...
No Smartgun TN Bonus's, no aiming, sights, lasers, scopes... just
you, your skill and a bucket of dice.
(For accuracy, some GM's may like to give each hit D6 successes
to represent luck in where it hits)

CHOPPER
Still pondering
Message no. 24
From: Alexander Borghgraef <Alexander.Borghgraef@***.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 17:40:32 --100
>Don't forget that miniguns have superior recoil reduction capabilites too; you >can
stick a gas vent on each barrel.

I don't think it works that way, sure you need a gas vent on each barrel but
only one barrel is firing at the time (that's why it's rotating) so I
don't think you can multiply the gas vents.
Message no. 25
From: Alexander Borghgraef <Alexander.Borghgraef@***.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 17:58:55 --100
BTW, 15 rounds ,that's +30 recoil!! How can you hit anything with that!
Message no. 26
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 13:13:20 -0400
>>>>> "Alexander" == Alexander Borghgraef
<Alexander.Borghgraef@***.AC.BE>
>>>>> writes:

>> Don't forget that miniguns have superior recoil reduction capabilites
>> too; you can stick a gas vent on each barrel.
Alexander> I don't think it works that way, sure you need a gas vent on
Alexander> each barrel but only one barrel is firing at the time (that's
Alexander> why it's rotating) so I don't think you can multiply the gas
Alexander> vents.

According to the DLoH gas vents on each barrel of a rotary cannon are
cumulative and required (you can't put one vent on a single barrel).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |"I came. I saw. I did what I had to do, and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|got the hell out!" --a button
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 27
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 13:42:39 -0400
Damion Milliken writes:

[miniguns have superior recoil properties because you can put gas vent on
each barrel]

To me, this sounds crazy (no offense). I would have to rule that you
would have to vent all of the barrels in order to get any recoil comp at
all, i.e. you would have to buy six gas vent 4's to get a -4 in recoil
reduction, rather than a -24 reduction. That just sounds outta hand.

Marc ("Come & get it, motherfucker. Ol' Painless is waitin'.")
Message no. 28
From: "I.M. Legion" <legion@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 12:14:17 -0600
> BTW, 15 rounds ,that's +30 recoil!! How can you hit anything with that!

I believe that a vindicator is still a non-heavy weapon, or whatever the
classification is, and therefore doesn't double recoil. I could be wrong,
and if I am please correct me. Plus, its man-portable.

How you do it is, 1) have a strong character (Orc or Troll) so they have
some natural recoil comp 2) put a gas-vent 4 on all 6 barrels 3) get lots
of ammo! This way you can get about 25-30 rounds out with no recoil.

Also, I think that the minigun has a *minimum* rate of fire of 15. (Again,
please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm used to playing under different combat
rules that regular SR2.)

--
Legion
Students for War & Oppression
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Message no. 29
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 14:44:52 -0400
On Tue, 9 Aug 1994, Alexander Borghgraef wrote:

> BTW, 15 rounds ,that's +30 recoil!! How can you hit anything with that!
>

Improved deluxe Gyro mount, gas vent 4, and a but-awesome
Strength. Remember that the +2 modifier is for >unmodified< recoil, or
all the rounds after the first 1 (first round, no recoil) + 7 + 4 + 3
(from that but-awesome Strength) = 15 rounds. Funny, no rounds left.
Guess recoil's not such a problem after all. Of course, how often do you
see a troll walking around with a gas-vented, gyro-mounted Vindicator?
Come to think of it...

Marc
Message no. 30
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 16:05:28 +0000
Alexander writes:

> >Don't forget that miniguns have superior recoil reduction capabilites too; you
>can stick a gas vent on each barrel.
>
> I don't think it works that way, sure you need a gas vent on each barrel but
> only one barrel is firing at the time (that's why it's rotating) so I
> don't think you can multiply the gas vents.

Heh, Heh, Heh. I got caught on that one a while back, and eventually Adam gave
me a full blown physics explanation of why it worked, complete with momentum
and inertia.

But just stop a while and think about it. A gas vent III for eg, can compensate
for three bullets being fired. If you put one on each barrel, then each barrel
can fire three bullets before you suffer recoil penalties. So you can fire 18
bullets. Makes you think twice about miniguns eh? :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

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Message no. 31
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 16:10:32 +0000
Legion writes:

> > BTW, 15 rounds ,that's +30 recoil!! How can you hit anything with that!
>
> I believe that a vindicator is still a non-heavy weapon, or whatever the
> classification is, and therefore doesn't double recoil. I could be wrong,
> and if I am please correct me. Plus, its man-portable.

While it isn't a heavy weapon, and hence uses firearms skill instead of
gunnery, it does say that Mr. Vindicator suffers heavy weapon recoil penalties.

> Also, I think that the minigun has a *minimum* rate of fire of 15. (Again,
> please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm used to playing under different combat
> rules that regular SR2.)

It has a _set_ rate of 15. It can _only_ fire 15, no more, no less.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

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Message no. 32
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 14:27:55 +0100
Hi everyone, I'm back!

On Tue, 9 Aug 1994, Alexander Borghgraef wrote:

> BTW, 15 rounds ,that's +30 recoil!! How can you hit anything with that!
>

well....

There's an NPC in a game I run who uses a minigun.
It has a deluxe gyromount and level 2 gas venting on each barrel.
This completely negates all 15 rounds.
He's specialised in the GE vindicator and generally uses APDS ammo.
So, you have a weapon that does 22D with no recoil problems and halves
armour. In the last session I ran he killed an APC with it.

Of course it has disadvantages.
It's not exactly the most concealable weapon you've ever seen.
He's the first person enemy mercs/tanks/mages/drones/whatever
try to kill.

His handle, by the way, is Reaper.

It's good to be back.

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Message no. 33
From: "I.M. Legion" <legion@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 08:19:49 -0600
Damion Milliken writes:
>
> While it isn't a heavy weapon, and hence uses firearms skill instead of
> gunnery, it does say that Mr. Vindicator suffers heavy weapon recoil penalties.
> It has a _set_ rate of 15. It can _only_ fire 15, no more, no less.

Thanks for the corrections.

Legion
Message no. 34
From: "I.M. Legion" <legion@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 08:26:13 -0600
Gareth Owen writes:
>
> There's an NPC in a game I run who uses a minigun.
> It has a deluxe gyromount and level 2 gas venting on each barrel.
> This completely negates all 15 rounds.
> He's specialised in the GE vindicator and generally uses APDS ammo.
> So, you have a weapon that does 22D with no recoil problems and halves
> armour. In the last session I ran he killed an APC with it.

I'm currently playing a dwarf redneck rigger (my ex-Mr. Johnson got kilt
by a bug) whose primary drone is an armed-variant Dalmation with a
vindicator (and much recoil-comp). The one time I've had a chance to use
it, I took out an Ares Dragon from behind. No armor on the turbine exhaust
ducts, so I just _had_ to kill it :-) Of course, the platoon of infantry
and drones it had already dropped off proved to be a little more trouble
than the Dragon...

Just out for a good time...
Legion
Message no. 35
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Miniguns
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 23:46:26 +1100
Jani Fikouras writes:

> > The only "tank" for which we have stats is pretty wimpy as far as
tanks
> > go. An armor of only 18??

Um, 18 is pretty darn tough actually. The only weapons even _capable_ of
scratching it are those with armour piercing capabilties (AVMs and their
ilk), and the rotary autocannon and rotary assault cannon (but those two
would do nothing anyway).

> > Miniguns may be able to fire loads of rounds, but they _always_ fire 15
> > rounds, which means lots of recoil as well, so you'll likely miss a lot
> > with them.

Yeah, but one could fire the first few rounds (the compensated ones) at one
target (and have very low numbers indeed for quite high damage), and fire
the rest at another target (and have no hope of hitting).

> You can also put a separate gasvent on each barrel (the ex-DLoH said so)
> so lesee we have 6 barrels and that makes 15/6 = 2.5. You put 2.5 points
> of recoil compensation on each barrel and you are ready to rock and roll :)

This is _very_ scarey. A 15 round burst from a minigun does 22D; that beats
an A-Cannon anyday.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 36
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 11:20:17 +0100
>> > The only "tank" for which we have stats is pretty wimpy as far as
tanks
>> > go. An armor of only 18??
>
>Um, 18 is pretty darn tough actually. The only weapons even _capable_ of
>scratching it are those with armour piercing capabilties (AVMs and their
>ilk), and the rotary autocannon and rotary assault cannon (but those two
>would do nothing anyway).

Yes, it's pretty tough seeing that "anti-tank" missiles do only 20D or so
damage. Even attributing this to the "breakthroughs in armor tech" mentioned
in FoF this is unrealistically low. I however feel that armor for a true
tank (like the Stonewall MBT) would be much higher -- and yes, I'm taking
into account that armor values in Shadowrun might not be linear.

>Yeah, but one could fire the first few rounds (the compensated ones) at one
>target (and have very low numbers indeed for quite high damage), and fire
>the rest at another target (and have no hope of hitting).

Yes. Unless of course you roll all 1s, 2s, and 3s if you have a Target
Number of 4 :) (happened in our group once when firing a minigun :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 37
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 22:38:58 +1100
Gurth writes:

> Yes, it's pretty tough seeing that "anti-tank" missiles do only 20D or so
> damage. Even attributing this to the "breakthroughs in armor tech"
mentioned
> in FoF this is unrealistically low. I however feel that armor for a true
> tank (like the Stonewall MBT) would be much higher -- and yes, I'm taking
> into account that armor values in Shadowrun might not be linear.

Realise that the 20D is armour piercing. That means the Banshee takes 11D if
hit by one. And has 15 dice to resist. I'd like to see one survive that.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 38
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Miniguns
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 06:14:05 -0800
Damion writes:

>Realise that the 20D is armour piercing. That means the Banshee takes 11D if
hit by one. And has 15 dice to resist. I'd like to see one survive that.


That's why it's always good to save some of your Control Pool to
perform Evasive Action. Dodge like hell. Once you start taking damage, too,
your handling goes down, your speed suffers, your armor gets shot away,
your sensors start failing, your hull isn't watertight anymore....

I have to stop. I'm gettin' all choked up here. *sniff*
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Miniguns
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:32:13 +0100
>Sorry, I didn't make myself entirely clear. Is it not the case with a
>minigun that it only has a single firing chamber? If my conception of the
>weapon is incorrect, could you please tell me. Actually, could someone with
>knowledge of the things please give me a complete rundown?, before I go on
>any further and make a complete goose of myself by commenting on things I
>really have no knowledge of.

For sake of ease, we assume the weapon has six barrels and is belt-fed from
the top.
The chambers are empty, but a belt is loaded into the weapon. You start the
electric motor, and the barrel assembly starts spinning at, say, 1,000rpm.
The weapon does not fire yet because you don't press the trigger, you've
only started the barrels. When you do press the trigger, a round is put into
the barrel that happens to be at the top. While this is being done, the
barrel turns 60 degrees, and loading of the second barrel is begun. The
(simplified) process is as follows (the number of degrees refers to the
position of the first barrel to be loaded; 0 degrees is at the top of the
weapon):

0 degrees: loading of first barrel starts, all other barrels are empty

60 degrees: loading of second barrel starts, first barrel is half-way
through loading process

120 degrees: loading of third barrel starts, second barrel is half-way
through loading process, first barrel is loaded

180 degrees: loading of fourth barrel starts, third barrel is half-way
through loading process, second barrel is loaded, first barrel is fired

240 degrees: loading of fifth barrel starts, fourth barrel is half-way
through loading process, third barrel is loaded, second barrel is fired,
ejection of cartridge case from first barrel begins

300 degrees: loading of sixth barrel starts, fifth barrel is half-way
through loading process, fourth barrel is loaded, third barrel is fired,
ejection of cartridge case from second barrel begins, cartridge is fully
ejected from first barrel

360 degrees: loading of first barrel starts again, sixth barrel is half-way
through loading process, fifth barrel is loaded, fourth barrel is fired,
ejection of cartridge case from third barrel begins, cartridge is fully
ejected from second barrel

As you can see, each barrel is fired when it reaches the 180 degrees
position. The revolving barrel assembly is there because if you have more
than one barrel, you need not wait for the first barrel to be unloaded
before you can start loading the next one. This is what gives miniguns their
extreme rate of fire; you could try making it with a single barrel if your
rounds don't weigh much, but you'd probably melt your barrel due to the
friction of the 6000 projectiles moving through it per minute; with a
six-barrel weapon each barrel only fires 1000 rounds per minute but you
still get a total of 6000 rpm. Of course you could put on still more
barrels, but that would mean you have more mass to spin around and so it
probably won't really increase your firing rates (and 6000 rpm is _really_
fast -- you just hear the weapon buzz loudly instead of hearing the rounds
fire as you would from a normal machine gun...)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
<te huur: 1 lege regel (opschrift naar keuze), hier te bezichtigen.>
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Message no. 40
From: adonis <adonis@******.COM>
Subject: Miniguns!
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:22:26 -0400
My GM has at least one copy of nearly every SR book ever published.
Consequently, the only book I;ve purchased is SR2. But this isn't as cozy
and arrangement as you may think since he lives 50 miles away!

So...I'm working on a some NPCs for him, and I need to pick the brains of
you weapons gurus...

What i need are minigun stats. How many types are there? Stuff like that..
Help me out? Thanks.

SOOiCydE
Email: adonis@******.com
ICQ #: 1622637
ICQ Pager: 1622637@*****.icq.com
WinCE Info Page: http://members.tripod.com/~SOOiCydE
Message no. 41
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Miniguns!
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:59:31 -0400
SOOiCyde asked:


>My GM has at least one copy of nearly every SR book ever published.
>Consequently, the only book I;ve purchased is SR2. But this isn't as cozy
>and arrangement as you may think since he lives 50 miles away!
>
>So...I'm working on a some NPCs for him, and I need to pick the brains of
>you weapons gurus...
>
>What i need are minigun stats. How many types are there? Stuff like that..
> Help me out? Thanks.
>

I'm hardly a weapons guru, though I do have a slightly less than healthy
interest in guns from a mechanical perspective, but I'll see if I can make
things any worse :)

IIRC, there's the 5.56mm minigun made famous by movies like Predator and T2,
which is normally either pintle mounted or hung out a helicopter
door...there's the 20mm Vulcan, the projectile weapon of choice in American
fighters, and the infamous 30mm Avenger of the A-10 Thunderbolt.

In Shadowrun, the steps between guns are far more gradual. There's the ever
present Vindicator LMG from SSC and page 279 of BBB, the Vengeance MMG from
RBB and p 283 of BBB, and Vanquisher HMG of RBB and p283 of BBB. All three
have a fixed autofire rate of 15 rounds per Complex Action, and use the
heavy weapon recoil rules.

Later-
Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Berek Thunderfist, Wolf Lord of the Blackmane Company
-Freelance Corporate Espionage Agent
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Miniguns!
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:13:58 +0100
adonis said on 11:22/15 Oct 97...

> What i need are minigun stats. How many types are there? Stuff like that..
> Help me out? Thanks.

They are in the Sourcebook Updates section in the back of SRII -- look
for the word "Vindicator". The only other thing you need to know is that
it ALWAYS fires 15 rounds, if the ammo for that is available of course.

--
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Message no. 43
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Miniguns!
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:13:58 +0100
Duncan McNeill-Burton said on 16:59/15 Oct 97...

> IIRC, there's the 5.56mm minigun made famous by movies like Predator
> and T2, which is normally either pintle mounted or hung out a helicopter
> door...there's the 20mm Vulcan, the projectile weapon of choice in
> American fighters, and the infamous 30mm Avenger of the A-10
> Thunderbolt.

You're forgetting various types of 7.62x51 mm and 12.7x99 mm weapons, with
six or three barrels depending on what model you're buying, and a Russian
four-barrel 12.7x107 mm used in some versions of the the Mil-24 "Hind"
attack helicopter.

> In Shadowrun, the steps between guns are far more gradual. There's the
> ever present Vindicator LMG from SSC and page 279 of BBB, the Vengeance
> MMG from RBB and p 283 of BBB, and Vanquisher HMG of RBB and p283 of
> BBB. All three have a fixed autofire rate of 15 rounds per Complex
> Action, and use the heavy weapon recoil rules.

There are also some miniguns in net.supplements.

--
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-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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