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Message no. 1
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 22:33:23 -0300
Here's a quick and easy one. For some reason, I don't know the
answer to this.

Let's say I'm making an elf character. The elf gets +2 to Charisma,
therefore his maximum Charisma is 8. Easy-peasy. But, does that mean
his minimum Charisma is 3? Or 1?

I await your answers with baited breath (ewww...).

-Boondocker
Message no. 2
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 99 22:01:16 -0400
On 10/2/99 9:33 pm, Scott W said:

> Here's a quick and easy one. For some reason, I don't know the
>answer to this.
>
> Let's say I'm making an elf character. The elf gets +2 to Charisma,
>therefore his maximum Charisma is 8. Easy-peasy. But, does that mean
>his minimum Charisma is 3? Or 1?
>
> I await your answers with baited breath (ewww...).
>
>-Boondocker
>
>

It's 3, racial bonuses/penalties are not applied until later and at least
1 point must be allocated to each attribute.

Steve
Message no. 3
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 00:01:22 EDT
In a message dated 10/2/99 18:36:05 Pacific Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> Here's a quick and easy one. For some reason, I don't know the
> answer to this.
>
> Let's say I'm making an elf character. The elf gets +2 to Charisma,
> therefore his maximum Charisma is 8. Easy-peasy. But, does that mean
> his minimum Charisma is 3? Or 1?
>
> I await your answers with baited breath (ewww...).
>
> -Boondocker

Hmm.... This sounds like a YMMV question... Personally, if it was one of my
games I'd say that his min charisma is 3. This is because I expect that you
have to put one point in every stat before mods are applied. OF course,
stats that have a negative modifier also have to have enough points put into
them that they remain at 1 or above after modifiers.

Btw... Why would you want to bait your breath anyway?? If its anything like
mine, your not going to catch anything with it...
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 12:36:44 +0200
According to Scott W, at 22:33 on 2 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> Let's say I'm making an elf character. The elf gets +2 to Charisma,
> therefore his maximum Charisma is 8. Easy-peasy. But, does that mean
> his minimum Charisma is 3? Or 1?

It's 3. You need to assign at least one point to each attribute _before_
racial modifiers are applied. You can deduce this (though not all that
easily) from the way the text is worded on page 55 of SR3, under Choosing
Attributes:

"No Attribute can be given more than 6 poins or less than 1."

followed immediately by:

"A character's race also affects his or her Attributes".

What that comes down to is that elves always have a minimum Charismas of
3, trolls a minimum Strength of 5, and so on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 10:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
On Sat, 02 Oct 1999 22:33:23 -0300, Scott W wrote:

> Here's a quick and easy one. For some reason, I don't know the
>answer to this.
>
> Let's say I'm making an elf character. The elf gets +2 to Charisma,
>therefore his maximum Charisma is 8. Easy-peasy. But, does that mean
>his minimum Charisma is 3? Or 1?
>
> I await your answers with baited breath (ewww...).

I asked my GM this very question. I am in the process of creating an elf with a 1
charisma. He
said ok, no sweat. If I come up with a good background story as to why, he will award me
with
some karma during character generation. (My elf is a rigger with burns over 90% of his
body.)

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 6
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 10:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 03 Oct 1999 10:27:39 -0700 (PDT), Oliver McDonald wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Oct 1999 22:33:23 -0300, Scott W wrote:
>
>> Here's a quick and easy one. For some reason, I don't know the
>>answer to this.
>>
>> Let's say I'm making an elf character. The elf gets +2 to Charisma,
>>therefore his maximum Charisma is 8. Easy-peasy. But, does that mean
>>his minimum Charisma is 3? Or 1?
>>
>> I await your answers with baited breath (ewww...).
>
>I asked my GM this very question. I am in the process of creating an elf with a 1
charisma. He
>said ok, no sweat. If I come up with a good background story as to why, he will award
me with
>some karma during character generation. (My elf is a rigger with burns over 90% of his
body.)

Update on this. Yes, I did have to spend the 1 attribute point on Charisma. No, I didn't
get to put
the plus 2 somewhere else.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 7
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 13:49:35 CDT
>I asked my GM this very question. I am in the process of creating an elf
>with a 1 charisma. He said ok, no sweat. If I come up with a good
>background story as to why, he will award me with some karma during
>character generation. (My elf is a rigger with burns over 90% of his body.)

An Elf with Charisam 3? That's certainly different from my experience. I've
only known Elf Mages, Deckers, a ton of "Face" characters, and a single
Street Sami (Strength 6, Charisma 8, lesbian).
My current character (a mere human) has Charisma 4, and he's an reclusive,
albino, Rigger who beat his father to death. The guy survivec the Night of
rage at age 5.
I've never really seen an Elf with a _low_ charisma. Should be different.

Grim Shear
"Dammit man, I thought I told you to throw the _Grenade_
not the pin." Spoken soon after telling a _really_ stupid
(and well roleplayed Troll), to "pull the pin and throw it".

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 8
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:07:24 -0500
:>I asked my GM this very question. I am in the process of creating an elf
with a 1 charisma. He
:>said ok, no sweat. If I come up with a good background story as to why, he
will award me with
:>some karma during character generation. (My elf is a rigger with burns
over 90% of his body.)
:
:Update on this. Yes, I did have to spend the 1 attribute point on
Charisma. No, I didn't get to put
:the plus 2 somewhere else.


I think that's appropriate; with another attribute, you might get away
with the "burns over 90% of body" excuse. Check out the rules for deadly
wounds and permemnant damage; they can permanently reduce Reaction or any of
the 6 base normal attributes- except Charisma! Don't suppose you'd care for
an elf with a 1 quickness though, eh?
You could reasonably get flaw points for being exceptionally badly
scarred, though; it would be both a distinctive appearance (not much loss to
a rigger) and (in most cases) reason for a penalty on social tests.

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 12:43:26 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:07:24 -0500, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

>:Update on this. Yes, I did have to spend the 1 attribute point on
>Charisma. No, I didn't get to put
>:the plus 2 somewhere else.
>
>
> I think that's appropriate; with another attribute, you might get away
>with the "burns over 90% of body" excuse. Check out the rules for deadly
>wounds and permemnant damage; they can permanently reduce Reaction or any of
>the 6 base normal attributes- except Charisma! Don't suppose you'd care for
>an elf with a 1 quickness though, eh?
> You could reasonably get flaw points for being exceptionally badly
>scarred, though; it would be both a distinctive appearance (not much loss to
>a rigger) and (in most cases) reason for a penalty on social tests.

I am still working on it.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 10
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 15:01:49 -0700
At 02:07 PM 03/10/99 , Sebastian Wiers annoyed me by writing:

>I think that's appropriate; with another attribute, you might get away
>with the "burns over 90% of body" excuse. Check out the rules for deadly
>wounds and permemnant damage; they can permanently reduce Reaction or any of
>the 6 base normal attributes- except Charisma!

Agreed.

> Don't suppose you'd care for
>an elf with a 1 quickness though, eh?

Not to mention scarred skin from burning is more apt to be damaged
(bruising is common, as the whole epidermis is much more tender. Nerves
don't register correctly, those that are still able to recieve signals.
Skin is no longer as elastic as it was, so it heals much slower. It isn't
able to hold moisture as well as before the burn, so dehydration is a
problem, as is healing. Sun screen is now a must for being outside.
Infection is more of a concern... Fun fun

Some common complications of severe burns...

A burn as a child would carry increased bone mass loss, so fractures, etc
are much more common. (Imagine growing up with osteoporeosis, this was
noticed in children with as little as a 20% burn)

Quote: Contractures - Burns or other injuries resulting in the loss of a
large area of skin may form a scar that pulls the edges of the skin
together, a process called contraction. The resulting contracture may
affect the adjacent muscles and tendons, restricting normal movement. :End
Quote

Splints are often used for this, as well as to prevent deformations of the
limbs.

Severe burns can harm the lungs, resulting in an inability to walk even for
short distances. (the person from the article was only burned on 20% of his
body.)

There is even a scar type that appears to often thwart removal techiniques,
it grows back, often larger than before (Keloid scars, iirc)

> You could reasonably get flaw points for being exceptionally badly
>scarred, though; it would be both a distinctive appearance (not much loss to
>a rigger) and (in most cases) reason for a penalty on social tests.

Distinctive Appearance, Ugly, Allergy to Sun (mild), Infirm, Weak Immune
System or Sensitive System would be a few of the flaws I'd assign for such
a character.

But in none of my research into burns did I find much of anything that
would give credence to a reduced Charisma for burns, except as penalties,
not the Attribute itself. Body, Strength, and Quickness would be what I
would say carry the brunt of having a 90% TBSAB (Total Body Surface Area Burn)

Not to mention that a character imo, should NEVER start with attributes
lower than the Attribute mins listed for each race, for any reason. (After
game play starts is fair game. ;)

--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery - http://members.home.com/dvixen
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 11
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 01:42:48 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Dvixen."

<snip>
] But in none of my research into burns did I find much of anything that
] would give credence to a reduced Charisma for burns, except as penalties,
] not the Attribute itself.

You don't think an extremely badly burned person might have lost some
confidence in their social interactions? That their bearing and
demeanour might have changed?

-Boondocker
Message no. 12
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 00:55:44 EDT
In a message dated 10/3/99 21:45:15 Pacific Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> You don't think an extremely badly burned person might have lost some
> confidence in their social interactions? That their bearing and
> demeanour might have changed?
>
> -Boondocker

Actually, My impression has been that a person like that tends to
overcompensate instead... Becoming a very forceful personality to help
distract from their physical appearance... possibly even becoming agressive
in certain situations where before they might have been passive (aka The
Hey, what the **** are you looking at syndrome)
Message no. 13
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 22:00:34 -0700
At 01:42 AM 04/10/99 , Scott W annoyed me by writing:
>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Dvixen."
>
><snip>
>] But in none of my research into burns did I find much of anything that
>] would give credence to a reduced Charisma for burns, except as penalties,
>] not the Attribute itself.
>
> You don't think an extremely badly burned person might have lost some
>confidence in their social interactions? That their bearing and
>demeanour might have changed?

I won't argue that, although in all honesty, I think those types of
personality change are more along the lines of Willpower. Charisma related
flaws or edges, certainly, but not attribute changes.

I'm also fo the mind that if something is a reversible something or other,
it's a flaw. (or edge) I'm not fond at all of attribute changes an any
form. I'm not even that fond of simply being able to spend karma and
increase an attribute (I require a fair deal of roleplaying for the karma
to be able to be spent in the first place, same as changing a flaw or edge...)


--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery - http://members.home.com/dvixen
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 14
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:39:47 -0700
From: Scott W [mailto:iscottw@*****.nb.ca]

> Let's say I'm making an elf character. The elf gets +2 to
> Charisma, therefore his maximum Charisma is 8. Easy-peasy.
> But, does that mean his minimum Charisma is 3? Or 1?

Officially it would be 3 since racial mods are applied afterwards.
Personally I do it exactly the other way because it does allow
something like a 1 charisma elf. There are always exceptions so
I figure that any race should be allowed to have charismatic as
a door knob characters.

> I await your answers with baited breath (ewww...).

Good thing there is an ocean between us :)


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44
Message no. 15
From: Jeremy Baker meroeandjeremy@*******.com.au
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:22:16 +1000
>> Let's say I'm making an elf character. The elf gets +2 to Charisma,
>> therefore his maximum Charisma is 8. Easy-peasy. But, does that mean
>> his minimum Charisma is 3? Or 1?
>> -Boondocker
>
>Hmm.... This sounds like a YMMV question... Personally, if it was one of
my
>games I'd say that his min charisma is 3. This is because I expect that
you
>have to put one point in every stat before mods are applied. OF course,
>stats that have a negative modifier also have to have enough points put
into
>them that they remain at 1 or above after modifiers.


Definitely agree, the minimum charisma would be three, barring
very unusual circumstances. But I am curious, do others follow the
suggestion that enough points must be put into an attribute to ensure it
remains one or more after negative modifiers. It has been a long time since
I played, but I don't think we ever did this.

JB.
Message no. 16
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 18:50:53 -0400
Jeremy Baker wrote:

> Definitely agree, the minimum charisma would be three, barring
> very unusual circumstances. But I am curious, do others follow the
> suggestion that enough points must be put into an attribute to ensure it
> remains one or more after negative modifiers. It has been a long time since
> I played, but I don't think we ever did this.

I always played where if negative modifers could only bring an
attribute down to one, any 'left over' negative modifiers had to be
applied somewhere else.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 17
From: Ahrain ahrain_drigar@*******.com
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:13:26 -0400
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First off, Hello. Got a greenie to a mailing forum here. (Please excuse if format is
incorrect or unacceptable).
I like so far.

But in response to Jeremy Baker:

An old GM of mine (back from 1st. ed) used to allow a person to have a negative attribute
(one and only one), this attribute was treated as 1 for all intents and purposes. This in
turn made it harder for the character to raise the attribute, as he had to buy it back to
a positive number. He treated the negative number as the actual attribute for cost
purposes. (0 is treated as 1)

Example:
Lug, a troll sam has 1 point allocated to his Intelligence (Beetles have more brain
power) his actual Intelligence would be -1. It would cost him (in 3rd ed) 8 karma to
raise his Intelligence to a 2 (2 to raise from -1 to 0, 2 to raise from 0 to 1, and 4 to
raise from 1 to 2). This led to some interesting, and often funny situations (like
teaching Lug things other than break, hurt, kill, smash, eat, sleep. He made sure the
player could and would use the opportunity to enhance the game.

Comments, gripes, (pleas to get off the list), etc.: Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BF0ECE.D3C024E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"
http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#a8ccf0>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First off, Hello. Got a greenie to a
mailing forum
here.&nbsp; (Please excuse if format is incorrect or
unacceptable).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I like so far.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But in response to Jeremy
Baker:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>An old GM of mine (back from 1st. ed)
used to allow
a person to have a negative attribute (one and only one), this attribute was
treated as 1 for all intents and purposes. This in turn made it harder for the
character to raise the attribute, as he had to buy it back to a positive number.
He treated the negative number as the actual attribute for cost purposes. (0 is
treated as 1)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Example:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp; Lug, a troll sam has 1 point
allocated to
his Intelligence (Beetles have more brain power) his actual Intelligence would
be -1.&nbsp; It would cost him (in 3rd ed) 8 karma to raise his Intelligence to
a 2 (2 to raise from -1 to 0, 2 to raise from 0 to 1, and 4 to raise from 1 to
2).&nbsp; This led to some interesting, and often funny situations (like
teaching Lug things other than <EM>break, hurt, kill, smash, eat,
sleep.</EM>&nbsp; He made sure the player could and would use the opportunity to

enhance the game.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Comments, gripes, (pleas to get off the
list),
etc.:&nbsp; <A
href="mailto:Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com">Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com</A>

</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Message no. 18
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: Minimum Attributes
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:00:55 +0100
Could you pleeeeeaaaaazzzzee just post in plain text format without
html-formatting?

Thanks :-)

- Carsten

Offlist email: carsten@*******.dk

"Some day, when I become Supreme Ruler of Earth, I'll order everybody to go
outside once a day, and run around with their mouths open."
"Because you support fresh air and exercise?"
"No, because I hate flies."
(Dogbert)

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