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Message no. 1
From: hivemind hivemind@********.rr.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:32:55 -0500
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In MitS the section on Magician Adepts states that upon initiation the adept
may choose to gain one Power Point or learn a Metamagical technique. My
question is, is this in addition to the Power Point gained with the increase
in Magic upon initiation, meaning that the adept can gain two power points
per grade, or is this instead of the normal progression, meaning that the
adept must choose a power point vs. a Metamagical technique? My apologies
if this has been covered, but I couldn't find it in the Archives.

hivemind

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<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>In MitS the section on Magician
Adepts states
that upon initiation the adept may choose to gain one Power Point or learn a
Metamagical technique.&nbsp; My question is, is this in addition to the Power
Point gained with the increase in Magic upon initiation, meaning that the adept
can gain two power points per grade, or is this instead of the normal
progression, meaning that the adept must choose a power point vs. a Metamagical
technique?&nbsp; My apologies if this has been covered, but I couldn't find it
in the Archives.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000
size=2>hivemind</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Message no. 2
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:13:59 -0500
On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:32:55 -0500 "hivemind" <hivemind@********.rr.com>
writes:
>In MitS the section on Magician Adepts states that upon initiation the
adept
>may choose to gain one Power Point or learn a Metamagical technique. My
>question is, is this in addition to the Power Point gained with the
increase
>in Magic upon initiation, meaning that the adept can gain two power
points
>per grade, or is this instead of the normal progression, meaning that
the
>adept must choose a power point vs. a Metamagical technique? My
apologies
>if this has been covered, but I couldn't find it in the Archives.

This actually, did come up and will probably come up again. When a
nomral adept initiates, he gets a power point AND a metamagical
technique. When a Magician's Way Adept initiates, he gets a power point
-OR- a metamagical technique. Sucks, doesn't it? :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

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Message no. 3
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:57:48 -0500
hivemind writes:
>

In MitS the section on Magician Adepts states that upon initiation the
adept
>may choose to gain one Power Point or learn a Meta-magical technique. My
>question is, is this in addition to the Power Point gained with the
increase
>in Magic upon initiation, meaning that the adept can gain two power points
>per grade, or is this instead of the normal progression, meaning that the
>adept must choose a power point vs. a Meta-magical technique? My
apologies
>if this has been covered, but I couldn't find it in the Archives.

You get either a total of 1 power point or 1 meta-magic. Although I don't
understand why... since a PhysAd can learn Meta-techniques

. If you took the power point, I'd just limit you to the techniques a
PhysAd could get, for that grade.
I'd do it this way.

Initiate for Spellcasting:
grade increase goes to Magic rating for Spellcasting.
Learn any Meta allowed for Spellcasters

Initiate for Adept Powers:
grade increase gives 1 power point and Magic Rating for Adept purposes
increased by 1
Learn any Meta allowed for PhysAds'.

You should track Magic Rating separately for each... as Magic rating is
used for varying things differently by the 2 types. Combine them when
checking for magic loss. Use the Magician Magic rating for resisting
spells (or what ever a full magician get to use it for),
Message no. 4
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:27:14 -0400
At 02:57 PM 6/16/99 , cmpetro@*********.com wrote:

>. If you took the power point, I'd just limit you to the techniques a
>PhysAd could get, for that grade.
>I'd do it this way.
>
>Initiate for Spellcasting:
>grade increase goes to Magic rating for Spellcasting.
>Learn any Meta allowed for Spellcasters
>
>Initiate for Adept Powers:
>grade increase gives 1 power point and Magic Rating for Adept purposes
>increased by 1
>Learn any Meta allowed for PhysAds'.
>
>You should track Magic Rating separately for each... as Magic rating is
>used for varying things differently by the 2 types. Combine them when
>checking for magic loss. Use the Magician Magic rating for resisting
>spells (or what ever a full magician get to use it for),

Or think of it this way. Each time an adpet initiates he gets one added to
his Magic Rating and gets a power point. The Magic Rating is what's used
for magic loss, etc.

If he spends the power point on any other power, he gets that power and
gets the appropriate metamagic power (IIRC either masking or centering). If
he spends the power point on the Magic Power listed under Way of the
Magician. He gets any metamagic he wants, and the number of points he has
in the Magic Power is considered his Magic Rating for purposes of drain,
banishing, etc.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 5
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:33:03 EDT
In a message dated 6/16/99 3:01:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
cmpetro@*********.com writes:

<< In MitS the section on Magician Adepts states that upon initiation the
adept
>may choose to gain one Power Point or learn a Meta-magical technique. My
>question is, is this in addition to the Power Point gained with the
increase
>in Magic upon initiation, meaning that the adept can gain two power points
>per grade, or is this instead of the normal progression, meaning that the
>adept must choose a power point vs. a Meta-magical technique? My
apologies
>if this has been covered, but I couldn't find it in the Archives. >>


FASA's editors actually put this in. Kenson didn't write it. Go figure.

From e-mails of Kenson's, I get that what it was supposed to mean was
a PhysMag has to choose between a Power Point (which functions as a Magic
rating Increase for their Sorcery/Conjuring abilities under the new rules) or
a Metamagic technique. I guess this was an attempt to equalize the power
balance, but I think it's a tad unfair.








-Twist
Message no. 6
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:37:51 -0500
>At 02:57 PM 6/16/99 , cmpetro@*********.com wrote:
>>. If you took the power point, I'd just limit you to the techniques a
>>PhysAd could get, for that grade.
>>I'd do it this way.
>>
>>Initiate for Spellcasting:
>>grade increase goes to Magic rating for Spellcasting.
>>Learn any Meta allowed for Spellcasters
>>
>>Initiate for Adept Powers:
>>grade increase gives 1 power point and Magic Rating for Adept purposes
>>increased by 1
>>Learn any Meta allowed for PhysAds'.
>>
>>You should track Magic Rating separately for each... as Magic rating is
>>used for varying things differently by the 2 types. Combine them when
>>checking for magic loss. Use the Magician Magic rating for resisting
>>spells (or what ever a full magician get to use it for),

Sommers Wrote:
>Or think of it this way. Each time an adpet initiates he gets one added to
>his Magic Rating and gets a power point. The Magic Rating is what's used
>for magic loss, etc.
>
>If he spends the power point on any other power, he gets that power and
>gets the appropriate metamagic power (IIRC either masking or centering).
If
>he spends the power point on the Magic Power listed under Way of the
>Magician. He gets any metamagic he wants, and the number of points he has
>in the Magic Power is considered his Magic Rating for purposes of drain,
>banishing, etc.

Ding...Ding...Ding...Ding We have a winner.

Yes...Exactly Thank you for putting it in better terms.
Message no. 7
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:38:36 -0500
On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:27:14 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
writes:
<SNIP>
>Or think of it this way. Each time an adpet initiates he gets one added
to
>his Magic Rating and gets a power point. The Magic Rating is what's used
>for magic loss, etc.
>
>If he spends the power point on any other power, he gets that power and
>gets the appropriate metamagic power (IIRC either masking or centering).
If
>he spends the power point on the Magic Power listed under Way of the
>Magician. He gets any metamagic he wants, and the number of points he
has
>in the Magic Power is considered his Magic Rating for purposes of drain,
>banishing, etc.

I'm sorry but that's wrong. I wish it weren't. The way it goes is:
Magician's Way Adept intiates and Magic Rating increases by one and now
the adept must choose: either gain another power point OR learn a
metamagical technique. If the adept chooses to gain a power point, he
can buy a level of magical power. If the adept chooses instead to learn
a metamagical technique, he can learn any technique.

Query: If a magican's way adept loses all his "magical power" abilities,
does he still gain power points and metamagical techniques as a
magician's way adept or does he progress then on as a normal adept? The
reason I'm not sure is because of page 22, MitS: "Treat the character as
a standard adept from that point on." ("from that point on" being if the
adept's Magical Power ability is reduced to 0 through magic loss.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 8
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:56:57 -0500
:>. If you took the power point, I'd just limit you to the techniques a
:>PhysAd could get, for that grade.
:>I'd do it this way.
:>
:>Initiate for Spellcasting:
:>grade increase goes to Magic rating for Spellcasting.
:>Learn any Meta allowed for Spellcasters
:>
:>Initiate for Adept Powers:
:>grade increase gives 1 power point and Magic Rating for Adept purposes
:>increased by 1
:>Learn any Meta allowed for PhysAds'.
:>
:>You should track Magic Rating separately for each... as Magic rating is
:>used for varying things differently by the 2 types. Combine them when
:>checking for magic loss. Use the Magician Magic rating for resisting
:>spells (or what ever a full magician get to use it for),

Nope, they have one magic rating fo all things, though "Magic Power"
determines spell and conjouring related uses. They out uo barriers as well
ans anybody, for examaple, since that just depends on magic rating.

:Or think of it this way. Each time an adpet initiates he gets one added to
:his Magic Rating and gets a power point. The Magic Rating is what's used
:for magic loss, etc.
:
:If he spends the power point on any other power, he gets that power and
:gets the appropriate metamagic power (IIRC either masking or centering). If
:he spends the power point on the Magic Power listed under Way of the
:Magician. He gets any metamagic he wants, and the number of points he has
:in the Magic Power is considered his Magic Rating for purposes of drain,
:banishing, etc.

That's exactly how I see it should be handled.
IMO, as an intatiting adept, a magical adept gets to raise magic rating,
learn a metamagic technique, and gets a power point. As a magical adept,
he can spend that power point on "magic power" and has the option if not
learning the metamagic and gaining another power point. Seems fair to me,
and the likely results are not really super-powerful. They'd make quite
good adepts after a few intiations, yes, but with fewer metamagic techniques
(which adepts actually get use from now), plus they have to pay priority A.
I'm not going to say that's how Steve intended it, but that's how I see it.
It was argued on both sides before, and Steve did not, that I recall, clear
it up, so I don't think its worth saying more until he does.


Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:15:48 -0500
:Query: If a magican's way adept loses all his "magical power" abilities,
:does he still gain power points and metamagical techniques as a
:magician's way adept or does he progress then on as a normal adept? The
:reason I'm not sure is because of page 22, MitS: "Treat the character as
:a standard adept from that point on." ("from that point on" being if the
:adept's Magical Power ability is reduced to 0 through magic loss.)
:
:--
:D. Ghost

Sounds like you'd have them advance as a normal adept; if it walks like
an adept and gets treated like an adept, I'd say its an adept.
This is part of why I think magician's way adepts get all normal adept
initiation bonuses, and the OPTION listed in their sub-description.
Otherwise, magician adepts become better at initiation after they loose a
few magic points. Admittedly, they have a lot of options at each
initiation, but they should not be forced to learn less than a normal mage
or adept, IMO.

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 01:03:12 -0400
At 08:56 PM 6/16/99 , Mongoose wrote:
>:Or think of it this way. Each time an adpet initiates he gets one added to
>:his Magic Rating and gets a power point. The Magic Rating is what's used
>:for magic loss, etc.
>:
>:If he spends the power point on any other power, he gets that power and
>:gets the appropriate metamagic power (IIRC either masking or centering). If
>:he spends the power point on the Magic Power listed under Way of the
>:Magician. He gets any metamagic he wants, and the number of points he has
>:in the Magic Power is considered his Magic Rating for purposes of drain,
>:banishing, etc.
>
> That's exactly how I see it should be handled.
> IMO, as an intatiting adept, a magical adept gets to raise magic rating,
>learn a metamagic technique, and gets a power point. As a magical adept,
>he can spend that power point on "magic power" and has the option if not
>learning the metamagic and gaining another power point. Seems fair to me,
>and the likely results are not really super-powerful. They'd make quite
>good adepts after a few intiations, yes, but with fewer metamagic techniques
>(which adepts actually get use from now), plus they have to pay priority A.
>I'm not going to say that's how Steve intended it, but that's how I see it.
>It was argued on both sides before, and Steve did not, that I recall, clear
>it up, so I don't think its worth saying more until he does.

I just got to my copy of MITS and looked it up. Pg 24 of MITS says "she can
choose to either gain an extra Power Point or learn a metamagical
technique." That does make it pretty explicit I think, but it does seem a
little harsh that the adpet would only get a little benefit. What it
doesn't say is does the adept have to choose between a Power Point,
Metamagic technique or Magic Rating for Magical Power?

I think that's too restrictive, but I think that you're giving the Magical
adept too much. How about we do an example?

Sidler is an adept following the Way of the Magician. He has 2 points of
Magic Power, 3 points in Increased Reflexes, and 1 point of Increased
Stealth. His Stealth skill is 6, his athletics is at 4 and his Sorcery is
at 4 also.

On his first initiation, Sidler decides to get an additional Power Point.
He takes 2 levels of Improved Stealth and 2 levels of Athletics. He also
learns the metamagic technique of Centering for his athletics and stealth
skills. His Magic Rating is now 7.

A few months later he has saved up enough Karma to initiate to Grade 2. His
Magic Rating is now an 8 and he has another Power Point to spend. This time
he spends it on Magical Power, raising his level to 3. He also learns the
metamagic technique of Shielding. He also could have altered his astral
signature if he so choose. However, he can not get an additional Power
Point (for a total of 2) instead of a Metamagic Technique.
Message no. 11
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 01:48:24 -0500
On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 01:03:12 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
writes:
>What it
>doesn't say is does the adept have to choose between a Power Point,
>Metamagic technique or Magic Rating for Magical Power?

A Magician's Way Adept has to spend a Power Point to increase the Magical
Power ability

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

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Message no. 12
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:49:18 -0500
:I just got to my copy of MITS and looked it up. Pg 24 of MITS says "she can
:choose to either gain an extra Power Point or learn a metamagical
:technique." That does make it pretty explicit I think, but it does seem a
:little harsh that the adpet would only get a little benefit. What it
:doesn't say is does the adept have to choose between a Power Point,
:Metamagic technique or Magic Rating for Magical Power?

I'm positive we had this debate right after the book came out; the
question is, does the bit on p. 24 replace or expand the bit on p. 58?

:I think that's too restrictive, but I think that you're giving the Magical
:adept too much. How about we do an example?
:
:Sidler is an adept following the Way of the Magician. He has 2 points of
:Magic Power, 3 points in Increased Reflexes, and 1 point of Increased
:Stealth. His Stealth skill is 6, his athletics is at 4 and his Sorcery is
:at 4 also.
:
:On his first initiation, Sidler decides to get an additional Power Point.
:He takes 2 levels of Improved Stealth and 2 levels of Athletics. He also
:learns the metamagic technique of Centering for his athletics and stealth
:skills. His Magic Rating is now 7.
:
:A few months later he has saved up enough Karma to initiate to Grade 2. His
:Magic Rating is now an 8 and he has another Power Point to spend. This time
:he spends it on Magical Power, raising his level to 3. He also learns the
:metamagic technique of Shielding. He also could have altered his astral
:signature if he so choose. However, he can not get an additional Power
:Point (for a total of 2) instead of a Metamagic Technique.

I'm with you on the example, which looks valid; that's basically normal
adept intiation, with an unusual power (and metamagic technique) being
purchased the second time.
Thing is, just what would NOT learning the metamagic technique gain you,
if not a second Power Point? The bit on p.24 seems pointless, given your
example.
It may seem like giving them a bit much, but consider; in that second
intiation, maybe you spend a second PP on something like "improved physical
attributtes"- or more stelath and athletics. That means you DON'T learn
sheilding. Now, which is more useful- a point worth of adept powers, or
shielding? I know which I'd want to take!

Mongoose
:
:
Message no. 13
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:48:25 EDT
In a message dated 6/17/99 1:04:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:

<< I just got to my copy of MITS and looked it up. Pg 24 of MITS says "she can
choose to either gain an extra Power Point or learn a metamagical
technique." That does make it pretty explicit I think, but it does seem a
little harsh that the adpet would only get a little benefit. What it
doesn't say is does the adept have to choose between a Power Point,
Metamagic technique or Magic Rating for Magical Power? >>


To be understand what the hell that line is supposed to mean, check out this
correction:

Pg 24 of MITS says "she can choose to either gain a Power Point or learn a
metamagical technique."

This seems to be the intent of the passage, muddied though because of the
confusion most feel towards Physical Magicians and the new Power
Point/Magical Ability system.

For completeness, I'm forwarding a letter from Kenson from way back when MitS
was first released.




-Twist
Message no. 14
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:52:33 -0500
:>. If you took the power point, I'd just limit you to the techniques a
:>PhysAd could get, for that grade.
:>I'd do it this way.
:>
:>Initiate for Spellcasting:
:>grade increase goes to Magic rating for Spellcasting.
:>Learn any Meta allowed for Spellcasters
:>
:>Initiate for Adept Powers:
:>grade increase gives 1 power point and Magic Rating for Adept purposes
:>increased by 1
:>Learn any Meta allowed for PhysAds'.
:>
:>You should track Magic Rating separately for each... as Magic rating is
:>used for varying things differently by the 2 types. Combine them when
:>checking for magic loss. Use the Magician Magic rating for resisting
:>spells (or what ever a full magician get to use it for),

>Nope, they have one magic rating fo all things, though "Magic Power"
>determines spell and conjouring related uses. They out uo barriers as
well
>ans anybody, for examaple, since that just depends on magic rating.

>:Or think of it this way. Each time an adpet initiates he gets one added
to
>:his Magic Rating and gets a power point. The Magic Rating is what's used
>:for magic loss, etc.
>:
>:If he spends the power point on any other power, he gets that power and
>:gets the appropriate metamagic power (IIRC either masking or centering).
If
>:he spends the power point on the Magic Power listed under Way of the
>:Magician. He gets any metamagic he wants, and the number of points he has
>:in the Magic Power is considered his Magic Rating for purposes of drain,
>:banishing, etc.

> That's exactly how I see it should be handled.
> IMO, as an intatiting adept, a magical adept gets to raise magic
rating,
>learn a metamagic technique, and gets a power point. As a magical
adept,
>he can spend that power point on "magic power" and has the option if not
>learning the metamagic and gaining another power point. Seems fair to me,
>and the likely results are not really super-powerful. They'd make quite
>good adepts after a few intiations, yes, but with fewer metamagic
techniques
>(which adepts actually get use from now), plus they have to pay priority
A.
>I'm not going to say that's how Steve intended it, but that's how I see
it.
>It was argued on both sides before, and Steve did not, that I recall,
clear
>it up, so I don't think its worth saying more until he does.


Sorry, I guess I should have added IMOHO to my post. I thought the "I'd do
it this way" would suffice.
Message no. 15
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:00:30 EDT
"hivemind" <hivemind@********.rr.com> wrote:
>>>In MitS the section on Magician Adepts states that upon initiation the
adept
may choose to gain one Power Point or learn a Metamagical technique. My
question is, is this in addition to the Power Point gained with the increase
in Magic upon initiation, meaning that the adept can gain two power points
per grade, or is this instead of the normal progression, meaning that the
adept must choose a power point vs. a Metamagical technique? My apologies
if this has been covered, but I couldn't find it in the Archives.<<<

My understanding is its EITHER the normal power point or a metamagical
technique, not an option to pick up an extra power point per grade (shudder).
This info was added in development, so I can't really speak to intent. If you
want an offical answer, you'll have to run this one by FASA.

Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 16
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:14:28 -0400
At 10:00 AM 6/17/99 , TalonMail@***.com wrote:
>"hivemind" <hivemind@********.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>In MitS the section on Magician Adepts states that upon initiation the
>adept
>may choose to gain one Power Point or learn a Metamagical technique. My
>question is, is this in addition to the Power Point gained with the increase
>in Magic upon initiation, meaning that the adept can gain two power points
>per grade, or is this instead of the normal progression, meaning that the
>adept must choose a power point vs. a Metamagical technique? My apologies
>if this has been covered, but I couldn't find it in the Archives.<<<
>
>My understanding is its EITHER the normal power point or a metamagical
>technique, not an option to pick up an extra power point per grade (shudder).
>This info was added in development, so I can't really speak to intent. If you
>want an offical answer, you'll have to run this one by FASA.
>
>Steve

So at initiation the adpet could choose:

a) get a power point for abilities and gain either masking or adept centering
b) get a power point that goes into Magic Power so he can cast higher Force
spells, etc.
c) gain a normal metamagic power

Considering that they also can't buy power points with Karma, seems like
they would really be getting the shaft. Since as far as I can tell option
a) is the same for normal adepts and magicians, why not combine b) and c)?
He can choose to either concentrate on his adept ablities or his Magic
Power abilities, but not both.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 17
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:40:59 -0500
Sommers wrote:
>So at initiation the adpet could choose:
>
>a) get a power point for abilities and gain either masking or adept
centering

Or Divination...(IIRC)

>b) get a power point that goes into Magic Power so he can cast higher
Force
>spells, etc.
>c) gain a normal metamagic power

I think (IMOHO) b and c should go together.

>Considering that they also can't buy power points with Karma, seems like
>they would really be getting the shaft. Since as far as I can tell option
>a) is the same for normal adepts and magicians, why not combine b) and c)?
>He can choose to either concentrate on his adept ablities or his Magic
>Power abilities, but not both.

I agree completely... And so did Steve (unoffically of course).
Message no. 18
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:09:45 -0400
At 11:40 AM 6/17/99 , cmpetro@*********.com wrote:
>
>
>Sommers wrote:
>>So at initiation the adpet could choose:
>>
>>a) get a power point for abilities and gain either masking or adept
>centering
>
>Or Divination...(IIRC)

It doesn't really say whether they could or not, but I would have no
problem with someone learning that too.

>>b) get a power point that goes into Magic Power so he can cast higher
>Force
>>spells, etc.
>>c) gain a normal metamagic power
>
>I think (IMOHO) b and c should go together.

Hey, I got someone to agree with me. :)

>>Considering that they also can't buy power points with Karma, seems like
>>they would really be getting the shaft. Since as far as I can tell option
>>a) is the same for normal adepts and magicians, why not combine b) and c)?
>>He can choose to either concentrate on his adept ablities or his Magic
>>Power abilities, but not both.
>
>I agree completely... And so did Steve (unoffically of course).

Okay, I wasn't sure if that's what he meant or not. IMHO that way does
follow the spirit of both mages and adepts, and combining the two.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 19
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 19:58:26 EDT
In a message dated 6/17/99 10:15:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:

> So at initiation the adpet could choose:
>
> a) get a power point for abilities and gain either masking or adept
> centering
> b) get a power point that goes into Magic Power so he can cast higher Force
> spells, etc.
> c) gain a normal metamagic power
>
Actually, option A was added by the list, not the rules from what I gather.
Myself, I would just keep it 1 meta and 1 magic/power point. Ignoring that
section entirely.
Message no. 20
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 19:33:41 -0500
On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:14:28 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
writes:
<SNIP>
>So at initiation the adpet could choose:
>
>a) get a power point for abilities and gain either masking or adept
centering
>b) get a power point that goes into Magic Power so he can cast higher
Force
>spells, etc.
>c) gain a normal metamagic power

Masking and adept centering are metamagical techniques. The Magician's
Way Adept would have to choose the technique OR the power point. Ie, the
adept could NOT get a power point and masking in the same intiation.

>Considering that they also can't buy power points with Karma, seems like
>they would really be getting the shaft.
<SNIP>

I agree.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 21
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:42:38 EDT
Okay, I asked Mike Mulvihil.
Adepts of the Magicians path gain the +1 magic/power point
then they also have the option of either gaining another powerpoint OR a
metamagical talent. This to help because they do not get to buy powerpoints
with karma.

It has no bearing whether the metatalent can be used by a regular adept or
not, though they can gain the enhanced centering like adepts.

(this also assumes they are not changing aura, or shedding a geas)

I think thats it :-)
Message no. 22
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.net
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:41:13 -0500
> Okay, I asked Mike Mulvihil.
> Adepts of the Magicians path gain the +1 magic/power point
> then they also have the option of either gaining another powerpoint OR a
> metamagical talent. This to help because they do not get to buy
powerpoints
> with karma.
>
> It has no bearing whether the metatalent can be used by a regular adept or
> not, though they can gain the enhanced centering like adepts.
>
> (this also assumes they are not changing aura, or shedding a geas)
>

Wouldn't this lead to abuse? Why not play a magical adept instead of a
physical adept and just screw off the magic aspect and gain new powers twice
as fast via initiation??

Jamz
Message no. 23
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:32:39 -0500
> > Okay, I asked Mike Mulvihil.
> > Adepts of the Magicians path gain the +1 magic/power point
> > then they also have the option of either gaining another powerpoint OR
a
> > metamagical talent. This to help because they do not get to buy
> > powerpoints with karma.
>
> It has no bearing whether the metatalent can be used by a regular adept
or
> not, though they can gain the enhanced centering like adepts.
>
> (this also assumes they are not changing aura, or shedding a geas)
>

Jamz Wrote:
>Wouldn't this lead to abuse? Why not play a magical adept instead of a
>physical adept and just screw off the magic aspect and gain new powers
twice
>as fast via initiation??

No kidding. I'm getting scr*wed here. H*ll, start off with 4 points of
Magican and 2 Adept, Initiate twice as an adept for 2 points each time and
Bang your kicking much *ss. You don't need to buy some powers, cuz you
could get foci or sustain a spell. You get a spell pool (or what ever they
call it now).
You get spell defense dice. You can astrally project.

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

Can we say munchkin? It wouldn't be hard or even take that much Karma.
Message no. 24
From: Kama kama@*******.net
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:05:22 -0400 (EDT)
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 cmpetro@*********.com wrote:

>
>
>
> Jamz Wrote:
> >Wouldn't this lead to abuse? Why not play a magical adept instead of a
> >physical adept and just screw off the magic aspect and gain new powers
> twice
> >as fast via initiation??
>
> No kidding. I'm getting scr*wed here. H*ll, start off with 4 points of
> Magican and 2 Adept, Initiate twice as an adept for 2 points each time and
> Bang your kicking much *ss. You don't need to buy some powers, cuz you
> could get foci or sustain a spell. You get a spell pool (or what ever they
> call it now).
> You get spell defense dice. You can astrally project.
>
> BTW, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.
>

O.K.

Adepts following the path of magic cannot astrally project. In additon,
like other physical adepts, they must spend power points in order to be
able to astrally percieve.

Kama
Keeper of the Dice Bag from Hell (tm)
Message no. 25
From: Bai Shen baishen@**********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:29:59 -0400
> No kidding. I'm getting scr*wed here. H*ll, start off with 4 points of
> Magican and 2 Adept, Initiate twice as an adept for 2 points each time and
> Bang your kicking much *ss. You don't need to buy some powers, cuz you
> could get foci or sustain a spell. You get a spell pool (or what ever they
> call it now).
> You get spell defense dice. You can astrally project.
> BTW, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

IIRC, Adepts can't astrally project. To even be able to astrally percieve,
they have to pick up the astral perception power. As for initiation vs power
points, from what I've seen, it's easier to get the 20 pts to spend on the
power point than it is to find a group to initiate with.

Bai Shen
Message no. 26
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:25:25 EDT
In a message dated 6/18/99 3:45:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Jamz@*********.net writes:

<< Wouldn't this lead to abuse? Why not play a magical adept instead of a
physical adept and just screw off the magic aspect and gain new powers twice
as fast via initiation?? >>


Don't you have to subtract from the Magical Power first whenever you lose
Magic Points? That would mean such an advantage wouldn't last long, but by
the rules I think it could still be done, unless the GM decides you're not
really following the Magical Way and switches you to a standard Adept.




Twist
Message no. 27
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:32:03 -0500
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:41:13 -0500 "Jamz" <Jamz@*********.net> writes:
<SNIP>
>Wouldn't this lead to abuse? Why not play a magical adept instead of a
>physical adept and just screw off the magic aspect and gain new powers
twice
>as fast via initiation??

First, there's the higher initial cost. Second, every extra power point
purchased is in place of a metamagical technique. Third after a point
it will be cheaper to buy a power point for 20 karma instead of
initiating and after a point further on, it will be cheaper to buy two
power points for 40 karma instead of initiating.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 28
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:46:52 -0500
> On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:41:13 -0500 "Jamz" <Jamz@*********.net>
writes:
> <SNIP>
> >Wouldn't this lead to abuse? Why not play a magical adept instead of a
> >physical adept and just screw off the magic aspect and gain new powers
> twice
> >as fast via initiation??
>
> First, there's the higher initial cost. Second, every extra power point
> purchased is in place of a metamagical technique. Third after a point
> it will be cheaper to buy a power point for 20 karma instead of
> initiating and after a point further on, it will be cheaper to buy two
> power points for 40 karma instead of initiating.

??? At grade 9 with group initiation and ordeals, it would still only cost
you 21 karma! 133 karma for 18 power points vs 360 karma @ 20 per point...
when is it suppose to be cheaper? even at grade 9+ your paying 21+ karma for
2 power points....

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://www.comnetcom.net/~jamz
Message no. 29
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:34:48 -0500
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:46:52 -0500 "Jamz" <Jamz@*********.Net> writes:
<SNIP>
>??? At grade 9 with group initiation and ordeals, it would still only
cost
>you 21 karma! 133 karma for 18 power points vs 360 karma @ 20 per
point...
>when is it suppose to be cheaper? even at grade 9+ your paying 21+ karma
for
>2 power points....

It's up to the GM as to when IF any of the ordeals can repeated. Of the
8 Ordeals in MitS, the Astral Quest ordeal cannot be completed by a
Magician's Way Adept without the aid of a Free Spirit; Asceticism reduces
the char's physical attributes and is thus unlikely that an adept,
magician's way or otherwise would take it; Familiar would not be
available to a Magician's way adept that did not develop his Magician's
aspect as you suggested; Oath can NOT be repeated. That leaves 6 ordeals
available to the adept, one of which can't be repeated and another is
unlikely to be taken at all. For sake of argument, let's assume that the
adept manages to initiate with a magical group and take an ordeal for
every grade.

As you demonstrated above, starting with grade 9 it is cheaper to buy a
single power point for 20 karma than to initiate. To find when it
becomes cheaper to buy two power points for 40 karma, solve the equation
(5+x)*1.5@ for x. The result is the grade afterwhich it will cheaper
to buy two power points.
(5+x)*1.5@
(5+x)&.6666
x!.6666
For Grade 22 and up, it is cheaper to buy two power points for 40 karma.

Now let's find the corresponding grades if the adept does not join a
group and never takkes an ordeal
(5+x)*3 (5+x)*3@
(5+x)=6.666 (5+x).333
x=1.666 x=8.333
For Grade 2 and up, it is cheaper to buy one power point for 20 karma and
for Grade 9 and up, it is cheaper to buy two power points for 40 karma.

Most runners will fall much closer to the second set of values than to
the first.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"


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Message no. 30
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:57:12 -0500
:> > Okay, I asked Mike Mulvihil.
:> > Adepts of the Magicians path gain the +1 magic/power point
:> > then they also have the option of either gaining another powerpoint OR
:a
:> > metamagical talent. This to help because they do not get to buy
:> > powerpoints with karma.
:>
:> It has no bearing whether the metatalent can be used by a regular adept
:or
:> not, though they can gain the enhanced centering like adepts.
:>
:> (this also assumes they are not changing aura, or shedding a geas)
:>
:

:
:No kidding. I'm getting scr*wed here. H*ll, start off with 4 points of
:Magican and 2 Adept, Initiate twice as an adept for 2 points each time and
:Bang your kicking much *ss. You don't need to buy some powers, cuz you
:could get foci or sustain a spell. You get a spell pool (or what ever they
:call it now).
:You get spell defense dice. You can astrally project.
:
:BTW, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

You can't ever project, and have to buy perception as an adept.
The abilty to use spell pool and use foci and sustained spells is inate
to a mage, not unique to this case.
After those 2 intiations, you'd not have any metamagic. Metamagic is
really useful.

:Can we say munchkin? It wouldn't be hard or even take that much Karma.


Maybe so, but lets look at what another "priority A" initiate can do,
and not compare apples to oranges, eh? To make it fair, we'll have the mage
start with an essence of 4 and 2 points worth of cyber. Hmm, a smartlink
would come in handy, as would some improved vision, and 2 points of body
from plastic bones and dermal 1 would be handy- all that's cheap, and
something like what an adept might get as powers (or even with cyber, IMO).
There's even some essence left for the oh so handy chipjack.
With his 2 intimations, he puts magic back to 6 (or dumps 2 Geasa, or
puts it at 8 with 2 Geasa). He also picks up 2 metamagic techniques- say,
shielding and masking. And he has astral perception and projection. Is
that now kicking much ass? I'd say so- you've got a well rounded, lightly
cybered mage with a magic of 6!
Is that more, or less "munchkin" than the grade two magician's way adept
you postulate? I'd have to say that "magicians way" adepts do have an edge
in being adepts with spell resistance and in a few other areas, but they
also have more skills to learn before being truly useful, and they loose out
in a few areas (astrally, but also due to breadth of coverage) when compared
to other "priority A" awakened. Seems fair to me. If you really think a
power point is always worth more than a metamagic technique, you might want
to limit use of the magicians way option- myself, I'd often choose the
metamagic technique.

Mongoose
Message no. 31
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:32:13 EDT
In a message dated 6/17/1999 10:44:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Schizi@***.com writes:

> Okay, I asked Mike Mulvihil.
> Adepts of the Magicians path gain the +1 magic/power point
> then they also have the option of either gaining another powerpoint OR a
> metamagical talent. This to help because they do not get to buy
powerpoints
> with karma.
>
> It has no bearing whether the metatalent can be used by a regular adept or
> not, though they can gain the enhanced centering like adepts.
>
> (this also assumes they are not changing aura, or shedding a geas)
>
> I think thats it :-)

I just want to point something out here. This is not in an Errata (at least
not yet), its' still an unofficial thing. Personally, I agree with it, but I
just wanted to point this out in case someone went about ranting on some
related tangent...

-K
Message no. 32
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:44:48 EDT
In a message dated 6/18/1999 10:08:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
kama@*******.net writes:

> > >Wouldn't this lead to abuse? Why not play a magical adept instead of a
> > >physical adept and just screw off the magic aspect and gain new powers
> > twice
> > >as fast via initiation??
> >
> > No kidding. I'm getting scr*wed here. H*ll, start off with 4 points of
> > Magican and 2 Adept, Initiate twice as an adept for 2 points each time
> and
> > Bang your kicking much *ss. You don't need to buy some powers, cuz you
> > could get foci or sustain a spell. You get a spell pool (or what ever
> they
> > call it now).
> > You get spell defense dice. You can astrally project.
> >
> > BTW, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.
> >
>
> O.K.
>
> Adepts following the path of magic cannot astrally project. In additon,
> like other physical adepts, they must spend power points in order to be
> able to astrally percieve.

And, after checking here...Centering (spellcasting) still has certain aspects
that require Astral perception in order to use fully. There is one other
thing, and I *might* be wrong here...but "attribute" (as in Magic Rating)
must be bought individually for each category of power (Spellcasting,
Conjuring, Enchanting).

Even if it's not, it *is* the way we do things here, so it could be one
possible solution to consider.

-K
Message no. 33
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 01:03:55 -0500
On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:44:48 EDT Ereskanti@***.com writes:
>There is one other
>thing, and I *might* be wrong here...but "attribute" (as in Magic
Rating)
>must be bought individually for each category of power (Spellcasting,
>Conjuring, Enchanting).
<SNIP>

Nopers. it's just you wierdos ;). Actually, I would allow restricting
yourself to one category of power to reduce the cost of the Magical Power
adept power as if it were a geas.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

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Message no. 34
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.net
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:12:30 -0500
> It's up to the GM as to when IF any of the ordeals can repeated. Of the
> 8 Ordeals in MitS, the Astral Quest ordeal cannot be completed by a
> Magician's Way Adept without the aid of a Free Spirit; Asceticism reduces
> the char's physical attributes and is thus unlikely that an adept,
> magician's way or otherwise would take it; Familiar would not be
> available to a Magician's way adept that did not develop his Magician's
> aspect as you suggested; Oath can NOT be repeated. That leaves 6 ordeals
> available to the adept, one of which can't be repeated and another is
> unlikely to be taken at all. For sake of argument, let's assume that the
> adept manages to initiate with a magical group and take an ordeal for
> every grade.

> As you demonstrated above, starting with grade 9 it is cheaper to buy a
> single power point for 20 karma than to initiate.

Actually, I said it's still cheaper initiating even at above grade
9...you're getting two power points each grade which would cost you 40
karma.

Even without ordeals, the costs are 12, 14, 16, 18....40 which takes you to
grade 15 before it's cheaper to buy power points at 20pts per karma....

Jamz
Message no. 35
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:19:23 -0500
On Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:12:30 -0500 "Jamz" <Jamz@*********.net> writes:
<SNIP>
>> As you demonstrated above, starting with grade 9 it is cheaper to buy
a
>> single power point for 20 karma than to initiate.

>Actually, I said it's still cheaper initiating even at above grade
>9...you're getting two power points each grade which would cost you 40
>karma.
>
>Even without ordeals, the costs are 12, 14, 16, 18....40 which takes you
to
>grade 15 before it's cheaper to buy power points at 20pts per karma....

*THWAP*

I was citing grade 9 as the "breaking point" for a normal adept where it
is cheaper to pay 20 karma to get one power point rather than get one
power point through initiation. I cited the "breaking point" for two
karma points later on. Read the whole message, damnit! :P

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

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Message no. 36
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS Adept Q [ATTN: Steve K]
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:59:18 EDT
In a message dated 6/19/1999 1:34:32 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

> >There is one other
> >thing, and I *might* be wrong here...but "attribute" (as in Magic
> Rating)
> >must be bought individually for each category of power (Spellcasting,
> >Conjuring, Enchanting).
> <SNIP>
>
> Nopers. it's just you wierdos ;). Actually, I would allow restricting
> yourself to one category of power to reduce the cost of the Magical Power
> adept power as if it were a geas.

Okay, but IF the concept of Power Points for Path of the Magicians is kept,
or even other alternatives (like variations in our games), this is one method
of keeping things in perspective.

-K

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Thwap!