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Message no. 1
From: Nexx Many-Scars nexx@********.net
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:36:15 -0500
Did anyone else notice that MitS really stripped some of the individuality
from the various traditions? Druids lost their individuality... the Paths
became slightly variant hermetics... houngans lost the ability to gain new
Loa patrons. A lot of the originality went out of them.


*****
Nexx Many-Scars
aka Mark Hall
*
Three hateful things in speech: stiffness, obscurity, a bad delivery.
*
http://members.aol.com/nexx3/index.html
-Last Update: 2-5-99
Message no. 2
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:54:24 -0400
At 11:36 PM 5/11/99 , Nexx Many-Scars wrote:
>Did anyone else notice that MitS really stripped some of the individuality
>from the various traditions? Druids lost their individuality... the Paths
>became slightly variant hermetics... houngans lost the ability to gain new
>Loa patrons. A lot of the originality went out of them.

I think all of the traditions are laid out about the same rulewise. What
was done were the descriptions were cut down to fit in. The background
stuff in the sourcebooks are still valid as far as I can tell. You either
need to look at the source material or fudge it to come up with a good
sounding background to the tradition.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 3
From: Nexx Many-Scars nexx@********.net
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:53:10 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
>
> I think all of the traditions are laid out about the same rulewise. What
> was done were the descriptions were cut down to fit in. The background
> stuff in the sourcebooks are still valid as far as I can tell. You either
> need to look at the source material or fudge it to come up with a good
> sounding background to the tradition.

Well, yes, they were laid out the same, ruleswise...which was part of the
problem.

Take a look at the Paths. The old version had karma advantages and
disadvantages that applied when learning skills. Gone. Not even a
reference to check out Tir Na Nog. Or the Druids, with their restrictions
on enchanting, or bonuses and penalties to conjuring. Where are they? Not
in 3rd edition. I realize why they would have cut down references to
other, older books, but they cut out a lot of the interesting and unique
facets of the traditions at the same time.
Message no. 4
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:27:20 -0500
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
> >
> > I think all of the traditions are laid out about the same rulewise. What
> > was done were the descriptions were cut down to fit in. The background
> > stuff in the sourcebooks are still valid as far as I can tell. You
either
> > need to look at the source material or fudge it to come up with a good
> > sounding background to the tradition.
>
> Well, yes, they were laid out the same, ruleswise...which was part of the
> problem.
>
> Take a look at the Paths. The old version had karma advantages and
> disadvantages that applied when learning skills. Gone. Not even a
> reference to check out Tir Na Nog. Or the Druids, with their restrictions
> on enchanting, or bonuses and penalties to conjuring. Where are they?
Not
> in 3rd edition. I realize why they would have cut down references to
> other, older books, but they cut out a lot of the interesting and unique
> facets of the traditions at the same time.
>

I think this does make more sense though in the universe sort of way. In
SR3, all magic is the same and has the same power but how you go about using
it is what's different. It's also much easier to remember how one mage does
things Vs another if they all worked the same way. Imagine the GM's
frustration if Shamans conjured spirits differently (rule wise) than
Hermetic mages who did it differently than druids or Houdons etc...
I know everyone like to play a different type of character and you still
can but it should be stressed out in role-playing, not that your druid can
roll more or less dice or can conjure special spirits...

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 5
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:26:36 -0400
At 11:53 PM 5/11/99 , Nexx Many-Scars wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
>>
>> I think all of the traditions are laid out about the same rulewise. What
>> was done were the descriptions were cut down to fit in. The background
>> stuff in the sourcebooks are still valid as far as I can tell. You either
>> need to look at the source material or fudge it to come up with a good
>> sounding background to the tradition.
>
>Well, yes, they were laid out the same, ruleswise...which was part of the
>problem.

Sorry, let me clarify. I meant that they were all laid out the same for
rules as they were in the respective book that they cam from. So a Path
follower from the Tir na Nog Sourcebook had about the same rules as one
from MITS.

>Take a look at the Paths. The old version had karma advantages and
>disadvantages that applied when learning skills. Gone. Not even a
>reference to check out Tir Na Nog. Or the Druids, with their restrictions
>on enchanting, or bonuses and penalties to conjuring. Where are they? Not
>in 3rd edition. I realize why they would have cut down references to
>other, older books, but they cut out a lot of the interesting and unique
>facets of the traditions at the same time.

True, I had forgotten those 2 points. And in general that may be true. But
its not as bad as it seems.

Personally, I thought that the Paths were a little unbalancing with their
Karma bonuses. And the requirement that they stay in Tir and be a part of
those magical groups is gone too. After 6 years of game time, enough people
have learned about the paths that normal people have started to follow
them. It may make them a little more homogenous, but it also makes them
more playable. Take the original Paths in TnG as an advanced form only
available to those elves in those magical groups. Or even better, make the
karma advantages an extra bonus for joining that magical group.

Its been a while since I looked at the Druids too. The conjuring and
enchanting modifiers I forgot about. But while they're not explicitely
there, they are implied. Conjuring bonuses and penalties came from standing
circles and ley lines IIRC. Check out the astral space section on aspected
power sites. I believe there is even a direct reference to druids and
circles. And if noot, make it that way in your game. As for restrictions
onm Enchanting, all that was was a Talisman Geas on Enchanting. The only
expendible fetishes that could be used were misstletoe, and to Enchant at
all required a big ole' kettle. It was detailed enough to qualify as a
talisman.

It would have been nice to add these touches in, but there was already a
lot of stuff crammed in there. With just a touch of thought its still very
easy, and within the new rules framework, to put those facets back in again.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 6
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:03:40 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/99 12:08:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
nexx@********.net writes:

> Take a look at the Paths. The old version had karma advantages and
> disadvantages that applied when learning skills. Gone. Not even a
> reference to check out Tir Na Nog.

I think this was done intentionally, since everyne seemed to feel the paths
were unbalanced. They trimmed down all the extra stuff, with the power
losses. IMO, each path also should have had a magic group, which woulda given
them the karma requirements, and maybe a few other "powers".

>Or the Druids, with their restrictions
> on enchanting, or bonuses and penalties to conjuring. Where are they? Not
> in 3rd edition. I realize why they would have cut down references to
> other, older books, but they cut out a lot of the interesting and unique
> facets of the traditions at the same time.

Yeah, I noticed this with druids, though I don't htink they lost too much
besides the enchanting restrictions. They still have the same fetishs listed,
and are Wilderness shamans, so they have spirits for longer. They shoulda
gotten more in depth about their circles, maybe something like the stuff
presented for the Paths (+! here, +1 more here, etc.)
Message no. 7
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:51:15 EDT
At 11:36 PM 5/11/99 , Nexx Many-Scars wrote:
>Did anyone else notice that MitS really stripped some of the individuality
>from the various traditions? Druids lost their individuality... the Paths
>became slightly variant hermetics... houngans lost the ability to gain new
>Loa patrons. A lot of the originality went out of them.

Well, I like to think that we actually opened up *more* options for
customizing magical traditions in MITS but, you're right, the descriptions of
many of the already-published trads did get trimmed back. Honestly, the
simple fact of the matter was space. I could have easily written four pages
on druids alone (they get even more in the London and Tir na nOg books),
likewise with any of the other trads. My goal was to fit as much useful
material into MITS as possible, and to give players the widest range of
options. Some assembly is, unfortunately, required.

In the case of the Paths from Tir na nOg, I also made a conscious decision to
power them down in order to bring them in line with other magical traditions
and make them playable. I think the "flavor" of the traditions remains
intact, without all the munchy Karma and Skill bonuses (adepts who get
magical bonuses, AND reductions in cyberware costs, AND reductions in skill
costs, AND the ability to summon spirits? I think not...). If you really want
elven super-magicians and mega-adepts, you can simply give them a massive
grade of initiation and/or have them follow the Path of the Righ (which
remains pretty much the same).

I think the material in MITS offers a good starting point. Hopefully, we
might be able to cover some trads in greater depth in future sourcebooks,
getting into their more specific rituals, tools, symbols, and so forth, like
druids were handled in London.

Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 8
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:15:32 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/1999 11:08:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Schizi@***.com writes:

>
> >Or the Druids, with their restrictions
> > on enchanting, or bonuses and penalties to conjuring. Where are they?
> Not
> > in 3rd edition. I realize why they would have cut down references to
> > other, older books, but they cut out a lot of the interesting and unique
> > facets of the traditions at the same time.
>
> Yeah, I noticed this with druids, though I don't htink they lost too much
> besides the enchanting restrictions. They still have the same fetishs
listed,
>
> and are Wilderness shamans, so they have spirits for longer. They shoulda
> gotten more in depth about their circles, maybe something like the stuff
> presented for the Paths (+! here, +1 more here, etc.)

Actually, I did some surface digging and that kind of stuff *could* be
rebuilt in the forms of Edges/Flaws. Things like "Home Ground" in the Edges'
for example.

-K
Message no. 9
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:29:26 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/99 5:30:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

<snip my own thing about varying the bonuses for Druids like the pathers>
>
> Actually, I did some surface digging and that kind of stuff *could* be
> rebuilt in the forms of Edges/Flaws. Things like "Home Ground" in the
Edges'
>
> for example.

hmm, that might not be too bad, maybe just as part of a general
totem/idol/path creation formula though, not as a standard merit/flaw that a
starting mage could choose, though that is just my little thing.

BTW, I am not sure (was it Dghost) whose idea the Insect Avatar name was
(instead of spirits, call them Avatars) but, tehy now have avatars in MitS,
so what will be our next name for Insect Spirits? (I have used "Ideal" for
"saintly totems", but maybe change them to "Icon" and make it an
"Insect
Ideal")
Message no. 10
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:32:19 -0500
On Wed, 12 May 1999 17:15:32 EDT Ereskanti@***.com writes:
>In a message dated 5/12/1999 11:08:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>Schizi@***.com writes:
<SNIP>
>>Yeah, I noticed this with druids, though I don't htink they lost too
much
>>besides the enchanting restrictions. They still have the same fetishs
listed,
>>and are Wilderness shamans, so they have spirits for longer.

Well ... Yes and No. (If the Druid is summoning after Dusk/before Dawn,
yes; if the Druid is summoning after Dawn/before Dusk, No. I think the
big change is that they are less limited on the spirits they can summon.

>>They shoulda
>>gotten more in depth about their circles, maybe something like the
stuff
>>presented for the Paths (+! here, +1 more here, etc.)

>Actually, I did some surface digging and that kind of stuff *could* be
>rebuilt in the forms of Edges/Flaws. Things like "Home Ground" in the
Edges'
>for example.

Actually, it should be noticed that this would be more effective than
granting extra dice because the Home Edge lowers targets numbers (and it
applies to more than just magical tests.).

Hmmm ... If you start an astral quest from your Home Ground, do you get
the benefits on the quest?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:49:16 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/1999 9:52:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

>
> Hmmm ... If you start an astral quest from your Home Ground, do you get
> the benefits on the quest?
>

VERY GOOD GRASSHOPPER!!!!

-K
Message no. 12
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:48:36 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/99 10:52:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dghost@****.com
writes:

> >>besides the enchanting restrictions. They still have the same fetishs
> listed,
> >>and are Wilderness shamans, so they have spirits for longer.
>
> Well ... Yes and No. (If the Druid is summoning after Dusk/before Dawn,
> yes; if the Druid is summoning after Dawn/before Dusk, No. I think the
> big change is that they are less limited on the spirits they can summon.

Actually, MitS changed it, now, you summon until the next sunrise or sunset,
which ever is long. As opposed to before when it was the following dawn no
matter when.
And in return, they lose spirits of Man
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:24:35 +1000
K writes:
> In a message dated 5/12/1999 9:52:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> dghost@****.com writes:
> >
> > Hmmm ... If you start an astral quest from your Home Ground, do you get
> > the benefits on the quest?
> >
>
> VERY GOOD GRASSHOPPER!!!!

Okay, I'll bite. Why?

Process for astral quest, as per SR2:
You go Astral.
You proceed to the Threshold. The Threshold would not be your home ground,
so you've left it.
You cross the Threshold, into the metaplane of your choice.

Now, unless the quest setting is such that it resembles your home ground,
why would you get the benefits? What has SR3 changed to cause this?

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 14
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:10:18 -0500
On Wed, 12 May 1999 18:29:26 EDT Schizi@***.com writes:
<SNIP>
>BTW, I am not sure (was it Dghost) whose idea the Insect Avatar name was

>(instead of spirits, call them Avatars) but, tehy now have avatars in
MitS,
>so what will be our next name for Insect Spirits? (I have used "Ideal"
for
>"saintly totems", but maybe change them to "Icon" and make it an
"Insect

>Ideal")

Yes, I think I was the one who suggested that Bug Spirits where totemic
avatars (It was too long ago for me to be positive. :). Instead of Insect
Spirits, why not refer to them as Totemic Essences.

"The Ant Shaman infuses the victim with a Totemic Essence, the
otherworldly energies warping once human features into a macabre hybrid
of human and ant."

I kind of like it ... it gives the Insect Shamans a mad
scientist/alchemist feel. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 15
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:03:27 -0500
On Thu, 13 May 1999 14:24:35 +1000 "Robert Watkins"
<robert.watkins@******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
>Okay, I'll bite. Why?
>
>Process for astral quest, as per SR2:
>You go Astral.
>You proceed to the Threshold. The Threshold would not be your home
ground,
>so you've left it.
>You cross the Threshold, into the metaplane of your choice.

After a quick scan ... that seems the same (Yes, I have MitS now ...
WooWoo!).

>Now, unless the quest setting is such that it resembles your home
ground,
>why would you get the benefits? What has SR3 changed to cause this?

(I'm not saying it would apply, by the way; I asked because I was
unsure.)
Well, let's start with a preliminary question: If you define a building
as your "Home Ground", then are astrally projecting in it, do you get the
Home Ground bonus?

Interesting character idea: Define a library as your Home Ground and do
all your spell research there. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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Message no. 16
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:51:36 -0500
On Wed, 12 May 1999 23:48:36 EDT Schizi@***.com writes:
>In a message dated 5/12/99 10:52:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>dghost@****.com
>writes:
<SNIP>

>> Well ... Yes and No. (If the Druid is summoning after Dusk/before
Dawn,
>> yes; if the Druid is summoning after Dawn/before Dusk, No. I think
the
>> big change is that they are less limited on the spirits they can
summon.

>Actually, MitS changed it, now, you summon until the next sunrise or
sunset,
>which ever is long. As opposed to before when it was the following dawn
no
>matter when.

Read what I said again. If they summon after Dawn and before Dusk, it's
the same as MitS because the Dawn (AKA sunrise) would come after Dawn.
If the they summoned after Dusk but before Dawn, then the sunrise would
come before sunset and MitS is different. Thus, my original (nitpicky)
reply of Yes and No is correct. :P~

> And in return, they lose spirits of Man

Only a few druids had spirits of man... and all druids were limited in
which spirits they could summon of the remaining spirits.

... *Rereads Grimoire* Waitasec! The text implies that only druids of
Animal Totems get those nasty bonuses for druidic conjurying ... I doubt
that was intentional ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 17
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:55:19 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/1999 11:25:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.com writes:

> Okay, I'll bite. Why?
>
> Process for astral quest, as per SR2:
> You go Astral.
> You proceed to the Threshold. The Threshold would not be your home ground,
> so you've left it.
> You cross the Threshold, into the metaplane of your choice.

As per SR2, you are most likely correct Robert. However, MitS has clarified
the issue somewhat. Do you recall how you couldn't enter the metaplanes if
you were already Astral Projecting? Well that is because you are immediately
selecting a Quest if you are going to journey there. Astral Plane is more
"free form".

> Now, unless the quest setting is such that it resembles your home ground,
> why would you get the benefits? What has SR3 changed to cause this?

You directly enter the Metaplanes, and even the methods of "Invoking" are now
possible for an Adept (Conjuror), as they do not possess Astral Projection.
It is literally "another form of things." (It being the Metaplanes).

Now, I will admit that the "Home Ground" rules are more a personal
interpretation, and in a tournament situation, I would NOT allow for such.
In a Ritual Location, well, that is another story entirely.

-K
Message no. 18
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:58:51 EDT
In a message dated 5/13/1999 12:24:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

>
> Yes, I think I was the one who suggested that Bug Spirits where totemic
> avatars (It was too long ago for me to be positive. :). Instead of Insect
> Spirits, why not refer to them as Totemic Essences.
>
> "The Ant Shaman infuses the victim with a Totemic Essence, the
> otherworldly energies warping once human features into a macabre hybrid
> of human and ant."
>
> I kind of like it ... it gives the Insect Shamans a mad
> scientist/alchemist feel. :)

Gotta admit, this does have a far more "detailed" feel to it at the very
least. That is actually a pretty cool little paragraph...I may use that
someday...

-K
Message no. 19
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS and alternate traditions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:59:41 EDT
In a message dated 5/13/1999 12:40:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

>
> ... *Rereads Grimoire* Waitasec! The text implies that only druids of
> Animal Totems get those nasty bonuses for druidic conjurying ... I doubt
> that was intentional ...

Actually, it *WAS* intentional.

-K

Further Reading

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