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Message no. 1
From: Aerio Chrome aeriochrome@****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 03:16:41 -0500
1. The Astral Pool that initiates get, does it apply to initiates who are
astrally perceiving?

2. For manifested spirits, it says in SR3 that they get armor equal to
twice their force for physical attacks, and the power must exceed that
number in order to affect them. It doesn't have the old SR2, "must use
willpower to attack spirits" clause. Does that mean that a character
firing an assault rifle at a spirit gets to use his skill and add combat
pool and other bonus dice (customized weapon, enhanced articulation, or
reflex recorders), and get the advantages from smartlinks on the attack
test? A force 6 spirit taking a 10 round auto fire from an ares alpha is
dust. Twice their force is 12, the attack has a power of 18, the spirit
needs 6's on its resistance test. If the character is rolling 6 skill
dice, 6 combat pool dice, a bonus die from a customized weapon and a
bonus die from his reflex recorder, and needs to get 2's on the attack
test (smartlink bonus, no other modifiers) scratch one spirit. Of course
if you treat the armor as hardened, then the base power isn't higher than
a 12 and the attack has no effect. That also means that there's only a
handfull of weapons that will affect the spirit, making them practically
invincible against mundane characters. So is there a middle ground?

3. Has anyone else noticed the potential for exploiting the new geas
rules? A mage character can now take 5 essence worth of cyber, and 5
geas, and have all the benefits of being a samuri and a full mage? (Yes
he can only stay astral for 1 hour, but for some, or if he's aspected,
it's worth it). Alpha Wired 1, Alpha Reaction enhancer 6, Muscle
Augmentation 2, and a few other fun things. Along with casting force 6
manabolts and summoning force 6 spirits. Kinda scary.....

Aerochrome
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Message no. 2
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 10:26:50 -0500
Aerochrome wrote:
>
>3. Has anyone else noticed the potential for exploiting the new geas
>rules? A mage character can now take 5 essence worth of cyber, and 5
>geas, and have all the benefits of being a samuri and a full mage? (Yes
>he can only stay astral for 1 hour, but for some, or if he's aspected,
>it's worth it). Alpha Wired 1, Alpha Reaction enhancer 6, Muscle
>Augmentation 2, and a few other fun things. Along with casting force 6
>manabolts and summoning force 6 spirits. Kinda scary.....

But keep in mind he has *five* geasa. That's going to put a big crimp on his
lifestyle.
To say nothing of the fuel it's going to give the GM <EGMG>.

-Graht
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Message no. 3
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:25:46 EDT
Aerio Chrome <aeriochrome@****.com> wrote:
>>>1. The Astral Pool that initiates get, does it apply to initiates who are
astrally perceiving?<<<

Yes.

>>>2. For manifested spirits, it says in SR3 that they get armor equal to
twice their force for physical attacks, and the power must exceed that
number in order to affect them. It doesn't have the old SR2, "must use
willpower to attack spirits" clause. Does that mean that a character
firing an assault rifle at a spirit gets to use his skill and add combat
pool and other bonus dice (customized weapon, enhanced articulation, or
reflex recorders), and get the advantages from smartlinks on the attack
test? A force 6 spirit taking a 10 round auto fire from an ares alpha is
dust. Twice their force is 12, the attack has a power of 18, the spirit
needs 6's on its resistance test. If the character is rolling 6 skill
dice, 6 combat pool dice, a bonus die from a customized weapon and a
bonus die from his reflex recorder, and needs to get 2's on the attack
test (smartlink bonus, no other modifiers) scratch one spirit. Of course
if you treat the armor as hardened, then the base power isn't higher than
a 12 and the attack has no effect. That also means that there's only a
handfull of weapons that will affect the spirit, making them practically
invincible against mundane characters. So is there a middle ground?<<<

The "Willpower" option is still available in SR3. Use Willpower as Combat
Skill and Charisma as Strength for base damage. The spirit gets NO armor
against this type of attack. (I don't have my books handy at the moment so I
can't provide a page reference. Anybody else got one?)

Yes, spirit armor is Hardened against normal weapons and, yes, that means
that high Force spirits are practically immune to things like gunfire. If you
want to take out a Force 5+ spirit you're got two options: use magic, or
fight the sucker in melee combat (using Willpower). We decided that runners
gunning down powerful spirits didn't suit how they were supposed to work in
Shadowrun.

>>>3. Has anyone else noticed the potential for exploiting the new geas
rules? A mage character can now take 5 essence worth of cyber, and 5
geas, and have all the benefits of being a samuri and a full mage? (Yes
he can only stay astral for 1 hour, but for some, or if he's aspected,
it's worth it). Alpha Wired 1, Alpha Reaction enhancer 6, Muscle
Augmentation 2, and a few other fun things. Along with casting force 6
manabolts and summoning force 6 spirits. Kinda scary.....<<<

True, and such characters are viable, but let's not forget a few limiting
factors:

* For every Deadly wound the mage takes from implant surgery, he has to make
a Magic Loss check (in addition to the Magic lost from losing Essence). I
know plenty of GMs who ignore this option, but I'd use it if a player is
trying to get all the bennies with no drawbacks.

* Remember that a roll of "2" on a Magic Loss check ALWAYS means magic loss,
so there is a chance that a magician undergoing that much cyber-modification
is going to lose it all. Most magicians don't want to risk that.

* Also keep in mind that geasa cannot prevent the loss of that last Magic
point. If a character's "real" Magic Attribute drops to 0, they become
mundane, regardless of how many geasa they have. Our cyber-mage above has NO
margin of safety in this respect. One more Magic loss, and he's a mundane
forever (unless he starts initiating right away).

* Remember that a magician has to fulfill ALL of his geasa in order to gain
the benefit from ANY of them. Any idea how much of a pain the butt it is to
fulfill five geasa at once? Let's take a fairly weaslely combo: Incantation,
Gesture, Talisman, Time (night), and Domain (city). In the city at night, our
cyber-mage is okay so long as he can speak loudly, gesture, and has his
talisman. If stealth is called for, he's out of luck. If he loses his
talisman, he's broken a geas and he's down to Magic 1. Same thing if he
leaves the city (even going into a park or out on a boat), or has to go out
during the day. That's lots of times when his magic isn't going to work worth
drek. (BTW, I strongly recommend against allowing cyber-magicians to use
cyberware as a talisman. It should be something the magician can HOLD or
WEAR.)

* I'd also have other Awakened beings shun a magician who has that much
cyber. No specific game penalties, just having to deal with fellow magicians
looking at you like a freak, spirits treating you with disdain, and
intelligent Awakened critters considering you anything from a bizarre oddity
to an abomination. This can mean trouble in trying to join Initiatory groups
and finding teachers to learn metamagic and new spells from. I tend to
recommend GM cruelty in this situation.

Hope that helps,
Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:02:22 +0200
According to TalonMail@***.com, at 13:25 on 9 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> The "Willpower" option is still available in SR3. Use Willpower as Combat
> Skill and Charisma as Strength for base damage. The spirit gets NO armor
> against this type of attack. (I don't have my books handy at the moment so I
> can't provide a page reference. Anybody else got one?)

Sure, it's under Physical Form on page 188 of SR3. Also, I feel I must add
that this little rule didn't help my last character much when fighting
some ant spirits in HTH combat :(

> Yes, spirit armor is Hardened against normal weapons and, yes, that means
> that high Force spirits are practically immune to things like gunfire. If you
> want to take out a Force 5+ spirit you're got two options: use magic, or
> fight the sucker in melee combat (using Willpower). We decided that runners
> gunning down powerful spirits didn't suit how they were supposed to work in
> Shadowrun.

I never had a problem with that happening in SRII -- spirits generally
proved tough enough to withstand firearms, simply because of the "attacker
must use Willpower without Combat Pool" clause. The new rule seems to
achieve much the same effects but in a slightly different way. One thing I
do like about the new rules is that you don't automatically give away that
a particular opponent is a spirit when someone attacks it and you have to
say "Roll your Willpower instead of your skill," though.

--
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Message no. 5
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 15:42:47 -0400 (EDT)
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At 01:25 PM 5/9/1999 -0400, TalonMail@***.com wrote:
>Yes, spirit armor is Hardened against normal weapons and, yes, that
>means
>that high Force spirits are practically immune to things like
>gunfire.

One thing that I've been wondering lately, for purposes of ramming
spirits with vehicles, does the vehicle count as a "Normal Weapon",
meaning the spirit gets to use its hardened spirit armor?

And would it matter if a rigger were controlling the vehicle, in that
a rigger-controled vehicle is much more a "natural extension of [the
rigger's] Willpower" than a regular vehicle is an extension of a
regular driver's Willpower?

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Message no. 6
From: Joshua Ring strago@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:14:15 -0400
TalonMail@***.com wrote:

> Aerio Chrome <aeriochrome@****.com> wrote:
> <SNIP astral pool>

> <SNIP>
> The "Willpower" option is still available in SR3. Use Willpower as Combat
> Skill and Charisma as Strength for base damage. The spirit gets NO armor
> against this type of attack. (I don't have my books handy at the moment so I
> can't provide a page reference. Anybody else got one?)
>
> Yes, spirit armor is Hardened against normal weapons and, yes, that means
> that high Force spirits are practically immune to things like gunfire. If you
> want to take out a Force 5+ spirit you're got two options: use magic, or
> fight the sucker in melee combat (using Willpower). We decided that runners
> gunning down powerful spirits didn't suit how they were supposed to work in
> Shadowrun.
>

But what about a sniper rifle? One of my players took out a Force 7 (YES, 7,
there were two magicians and a phys ad in the group) Earth Spirit with a Barret
Model 121 (APDS, 14D rounds) BY HIMSELF!!! Armor don't help there.

> <SNIP Question 3 and answer>

> Hope that helps,
> Steve
>
> Kenson's Cranial Collection
> http://members.aol.com/talonmail



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Message no. 7
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippage(TM)>
> Yes, spirit armor is Hardened against normal weapons and, yes, that
means that high Force spirits are practically immune to things like
gunfire. If you want to take out a Force 5+ spirit you're got two
options: use magic, or fight the sucker in melee combat (using
Willpower). We decided that runners gunning down powerful spirits
didn't suit how they were supposed to work in Shadowrun.
<BigSnip(TM)>
> Steve

Seeing as how I have to WAIT for MitS to come across the pond, I feel
justified in asking this.

One of my current characters is a physad with Killing Hands. How do the
new rules for fighting spirits effect him? What about a physad (or
mage) with a weapon focus? Assuming they don't go for the 'willpower
attack', do they still suffer the same penalties as someone shooting a
spirit even though their 'weapons' are magical, because they're making
'physical' attacks?

If so, I think I'll be whipping out my sniper rifle a lot and taking my
chances. My Willpower ain't that good.

*Doc' thumps at the Force 6 Ant spirit ineffectually with his 10S
Killing Hands.*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 8
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:24:38 -0500
:>3. Has anyone else noticed the potential for exploiting the new geas
:>rules?

Yes, it was noticed in playtesting; that's part of what playtesters do,
try to abuse the rules before they get published. Then, hopefully, FASA
gets the writer(s) or editorial dept. to make the chages that are needed.

:> A mage character can now take 5 essence worth of cyber, and 5
:>geas, and have all the benefits of being a samuri and a full mage? (Yes
:>he can only stay astral for 1 hour, but for some, or if he's aspected,
:>it's worth it). Alpha Wired 1, Alpha Reaction enhancer 6, Muscle
:>Augmentation 2, and a few other fun things. Along with casting force 6
:>manabolts and summoning force 6 spirits. Kinda scary.....


All that surgery can result in more than 5 lost magic points (if done
after character creation). You can't have more geas than your willpower-
although that's not a likely probelm right away in this example, it could be
later on if he looses magic a few more times to other causes.

:But keep in mind he has *five* geasa. That's going to put a big crimp on
his
:lifestyle.
:To say nothing of the fuel it's going to give the GM <EGMG>.


Exactly- if he breaks ONE geas, he can't use ANY of those magic points,
and has a +5 to all magic skill use. Its hard to keep all 5 geas; the
person would proably be better accepting the loss of a couple magic points
and only taking maybe 3 geas, if they really want all that cyber, since they
won't face near total loss of magical abilty (from the +1 / geas penalty) as
often.

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:41:00 -0500
:>>>3. Has anyone else noticed the potential for exploiting the new geas
:rules? A mage character can now take 5 essence worth of cyber, and 5
:geas, and have all the benefits of being a samuri and a full mage? (Yes
:he can only stay astral for 1 hour, but for some, or if he's aspected,
:it's worth it). Alpha Wired 1, Alpha Reaction enhancer 6, Muscle
:Augmentation 2, and a few other fun things. Along with casting force 6
:manabolts and summoning force 6 spirits. Kinda scary.....<<<
:
:True, and such characters are viable, but let's not forget a few limiting
:factors:
:
:* For every Deadly wound the mage takes from implant surgery, he has to
make
:a Magic Loss check (in addition to the Magic lost from losing Essence). I
:know plenty of GMs who ignore this option, but I'd use it if a player is
:trying to get all the bennies with no drawbacks.

Of course, theres also the +2 tn to do any doctoring on a character if
you don't want them to further risk magic loss. Both of these should be
more signifigant if MaM has useful rules for implant surgery.

:* Remember that a roll of "2" on a Magic Loss check ALWAYS means magic
loss,
:so there is a chance that a magician undergoing that much
cyber-modification
:is going to lose it all. Most magicians don't want to risk that.


So the roll is not based on the "effective" magic rating, IE, the rating
WITH geas? I though it was- but given the below, I now see how it works,
rolling against the reduced rating even with the geas.

:* Also keep in mind that geasa cannot prevent the loss of that last Magic
:point. If a character's "real" Magic Attribute drops to 0, they become
:mundane, regardless of how many geasa they have. Our cyber-mage above has
NO
:margin of safety in this respect. One more Magic loss, and he's a mundane
:forever (unless he starts initiating right away).


I was wondering about that. I though the geas actually prevented the
magic points loss. I had wondered what would happen if (somewhow) you had
more geas than magic points (or even just as many), which I now see can not
happen.

:* Remember that a magician has to fulfill ALL of his geasa in order to gain
:the benefit from ANY of them.

And there's the +1 penalty to magic skill use per geas if a geas is
broken. Thats GOTTA hurt. Given the penalty, you might actually want to
think twice about picking up another geas, since your magic will actually
suffer more for breakig the geas than if you had not taken it.

:* I'd also have other Awakened beings shun a magician who has that much
:cyber. No specific game penalties, just having to deal with fellow
magicians
:looking at you like a freak, spirits treating you with disdain, and
:intelligent Awakened critters considering you anything from a bizarre
oddity
:to an abomination. This can mean trouble in trying to join Initiatory
groups
:and finding teachers to learn metamagic and new spells from. I tend to
:recommend GM cruelty in this situation.

There is the socail penalty for ALL cyber users that could apply in some
of those cases (such as seaking a group to join).

Mongoose

:Hope that helps,
:Steve


It did for me!
Message no. 10
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:53:41 -0500
:One of my current characters is a physad with Killing Hands. How do the
:new rules for fighting spirits effect him? What about a physad (or
:mage) with a weapon focus? Assuming they don't go for the 'willpower
:attack', do they still suffer the same penalties as someone shooting a
:spirit even though their 'weapons' are magical, because they're making
:'physical' attacks?

Nope, the hardened armor comes from thier (immunity ot NORMAL wepons"
power. Those magic weapons ain't quite normal (even if they is fists), so
weapon foci and killing hands work just fine against spirits.

:If so, I think I'll be whipping out my sniper rifle a lot and taking my
:chances. My Willpower ain't that good.
:
:*Doc' thumps at the Force 6 Ant spirit ineffectually with his 10S
:Killing Hands.*


Screw the sniper rifle- with good unarmed skill, those killing hands
will go through spirits like a hot knife through butter. Of course, ant
spirits ALSO have "normal" armor (force for warriors and queens, f-3 for
workers), at least by thier MiTS stats. That makes it harder, but it REALLY
stops guns cold.

Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:23:39 -0500
On Sun, 9 May 1999 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Rand Ratinac
<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
><Snippage(TM)>
>> Yes, spirit armor is Hardened against normal weapons and, yes, that
>means that high Force spirits are practically immune to things like
>gunfire. If you want to take out a Force 5+ spirit you're got two
>options: use magic, or fight the sucker in melee combat (using
>Willpower). We decided that runners gunning down powerful spirits
>didn't suit how they were supposed to work in Shadowrun.
><BigSnip(TM)>
>> Steve

>Seeing as how I have to WAIT for MitS to come across the pond, I feel
>justified in asking this.
>
>One of my current characters is a physad with Killing Hands. How do the
>new rules for fighting spirits effect him? What about a physad (or
>mage) with a weapon focus? Assuming they don't go for the 'willpower
>attack', do they still suffer the same penalties as someone shooting a
>spirit even though their 'weapons' are magical, because they're making
>'physical' attacks?

No. (I don't have MitS, so don't take this as cannon, but I feel
confident that I am correct.) The physical adept would roll unarmed
combat doing [strength] (Killing Hands Level) damage resisted by the
spirit's Body unaided by its immunity to normal weapons. With a focus,
things progress equivelantly.

Query: with an active weapon focus, is the attack considered an astral
plane attack or a normal plane attack. (ie, does the Earth Elemental
resist damage with its Force [astral plane attack] or with Force+4
[normal plane attack]?) Does whether the mage (or adept [or an adept
using killing hands]) is astrally perceiving or not affect this?

>If so, I think I'll be whipping out my sniper rifle a lot and taking my
>chances. My Willpower ain't that good.

Depending on what sniper rifle, that might still be a good idea unless
you've got a high level of Killing Hands and a high strength. :)

>*Doc' thumps at the Force 6 Ant spirit ineffectually with his 10S
>Killing Hands.*

10S? Stick with the Killing Hands. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 12
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 19:19:57 -0700 (PDT)
> No. (I don't have MitS, so don't take this as cannon, but I feel
confident that I am correct.) The physical adept would roll unarmed
combat doing [strength] (Killing Hands Level) damage resisted by the
spirit's Body unaided by its immunity to normal weapons. With a focus,
things progress equivelantly.

Well, that all depends, doesn't it? If what we're discussing is the
power of immunity to normal weapons, and if MitS doesn't make any
changes to this situation, then yes, that'd be right. I can't recall
from SR3 if that's the case, but I suspect it is. No, I HOPE it is. :)

> Query: with an active weapon focus, is the attack considered an
astral plane attack or a normal plane attack. (ie, does the Earth
Elemental resist damage with its Force [astral plane attack] or with
Force+4 [normal plane attack]?) Does whether the mage (or adept [or an
adept using killing hands]) is astrally perceiving or not affect this?

I think this one would depend on the spirit's state. Is the spirit
manifested? Then, whether or not the mage/adept is using astral
projection/perception to attack, the spirit resists using its material
form. Is the spirit in the astral? Then you HAVE to perceive/project to
attack it and when you do, the spirit resists using its astral form.

In other words, for something like this, it isn't how you're attacking
it that counts, its how the spirit's resisting you. Which can force
some interesting tactics. For example, an earth elemental is a lot
tougher on the physical than the astral. A projecting mage comes after
him with a mageblade. Smart elementals will manifest, to gain those
extra four body dice to resist the attack (usually). On the other hand,
if that mage has an adept buddy on the physical with killing hands, but
who can't perceive, then it's a tough choice. Stay astral and get
whacked on by the mage in its weaker form, or manifest, be tougher, but
be attacked by two nasties at once.

> Depending on what sniper rifle, that might still be a good idea
unless you've got a high level of Killing Hands and a high strength. :)
>
> >*Doc' thumps at the Force 6 Ant spirit ineffectually with his 10S
Killing Hands.*
>
> 10S? Stick with the Killing Hands. :)
> D. Ghost

8-)

I will now. Of course, if I can pop him with my MA-2100 from long range
before he gets near me using my 16 and 18 dice attacks (gotta love
improved rifle), I think I'll do that.

*Doc' grins evilly..."Here, spirit spirit spirit..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 13
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:32:43 -0500
> I think this one would depend on the spirit's state. Is the spirit
> manifested? Then, whether or not the mage/adept is using astral
> projection/perception to attack, the spirit resists using its material
> form. Is the spirit in the astral? Then you HAVE to perceive/project to
> attack it and when you do, the spirit resists using its astral form.
>
> In other words, for something like this, it isn't how you're attacking
> it that counts, its how the spirit's resisting you. Which can force
> some interesting tactics. For example, an earth elemental is a lot
> tougher on the physical than the astral. A projecting mage comes after
> him with a mageblade. Smart elementals will manifest, to gain those
> extra four body dice to resist the attack (usually). On the other hand,
> if that mage has an adept buddy on the physical with killing hands, but
> who can't perceive, then it's a tough choice. Stay astral and get
> whacked on by the mage in its weaker form, or manifest, be tougher, but
> be attacked by two nasties at once.
>

If you're in Astral form only, then it wouldn't matter what form the
Elemental was in, you could only affect his Astral form, not his physical.
He would only be dual natured at that point, same for vampires or any other
dual natured critter.

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 14
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:26:29 -0500
> >Yes, spirit armor is Hardened against normal weapons and, yes, that
> >means
> >that high Force spirits are practically immune to things like
> >gunfire.
>
> One thing that I've been wondering lately, for purposes of ramming
> spirits with vehicles, does the vehicle count as a "Normal Weapon",
> meaning the spirit gets to use its hardened spirit armor?
>
> And would it matter if a rigger were controlling the vehicle, in that
> a rigger-controled vehicle is much more a "natural extension of [the
> rigger's] Willpower" than a regular vehicle is an extension of a
> regular driver's Willpower?

Two things. Yes, the spirit gets his hardened armor unless you have a magic
car :) Only magical things (weapon foci) affect critters with Immunity to
Normal Weapons.
Another thing, as far as SR3 goes (I've been trying to convince my GM of
this :) You ONLY get to use Willpower with HAND-2-HAND Melee attacks and
that still seems to be your choice whether you want to or not. It falls
under the "If it's not written, you can't do it clause" It's not written in
SR3 that you get to use willpower with ranged weapon attacks so you can't do
it. It's one of the 180 degree turns with the way they did things in SR2 but
with anything magical in nature in SR3, I don't assume any SR2 rules are the
same unless I seem them in SR3....
If you choose to use Willpower Vs skill, then your damage is (Chr)M Stun and
neither you or the spirit gets combat pool. I would say that this applies to
Physical Adepts also because it's a Contest of Wills and not a Physical
attack. If they want to use Killing Hands, then they have to use standard
Melee rules (and go against Hardened Armor). Bugs are tough as they should
be....the answer? Panther Cannon ;)

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:38:09 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> I would say that this applies to Physical Adepts also because it's a
Contest of Wills and not a Physical attack. If they want to use Killing
Hands, then they have to use standard Melee rules (and go against
Hardened Armor). Bugs are tough as they should be....the answer?
Panther Cannon ;)
> Jamz@*********.net

Jamz, I agree with everything you say, except for one thing.

If spirits have Hardened Armour naturally, you're totally correct. If,
on the other hand, spirits have Hardened Armour vs. normal weapons due
to possessing the Immunity to Normal Weapons power (as I suspect it is,
but still haven't checked), then there's one thing wrong with your
previous statements. An adept with Killing Hands is NOT using normal
weapons. Killing Hands is a magical attack and thus is not effected by
the Immunity to Normal Weapons power.

*Doc' gets the team mage to resurrect the Petrify spell so he can use
his Smashing Blow power on those damn bugs...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 16
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:12:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > I think this one would depend on the spirit's state. Is the spirit
manifested? Then, whether or not the mage/adept is using astral
projection/perception to attack, the spirit resists using its material
form.
>
> If you're in Astral form only, then it wouldn't matter what form the
Elemental was in, you could only affect his Astral form, not his
physical. He would only be dual natured at that point, same for
vampires or any other dual natured critter.
> Jamz@*********.net

Not exactly right, Jamz.

When a spirit manifests, it no longer has a 'pure' astral form. It is,
as you say, dual-natured. The thing is, being dual-natured is,
essentially, having a reflection of your physical form on the astral
plane. If that's the case, you're still dealing with an astrally active
physical being, which means you deal with the physical form, no matter
your own state.

Look at it this way. A manifested spirit is in the same situation as an
astrally perceiving magician. See, there are equivalents there. If the
manifested spirit could sever his astral attachment, it'd be the same
as a mage who isn't astrally active. A spirit on the astral plane is
the same as an astrally projecting mage. And, like I said, a manifested
spirit is the equivalent of an astrally perceiving mage.

Now, if that astrally perceiving mage is attacked by an astral spirit
or other astral phenomenon, does he use the characteristics of his
astral body (Bod = Wil, Qui = Int, Str = Cha and all that)? Nope, he
still uses his physical characteristics. Why? Well, there are two
possibilities. The first is that the astral phenomenon is using the
link the mage has created by using perception to attack his physical
body. The second is that the astral body is still limited by the
constraints of the physical body. Either way, the end effect is the
same. The physical statistics are used, not the astral ones.

Same for a manifested spirit. When you attack it, your attack has to
conform to its present form, not the other way around. You can't, by
attacking it astrally, force a spirit to, in effect, become astral in
order to resist you. Neither can a physical attack force an astral
spirit to manifest in order to resist it. If YOU want to attack it, you
have to attack its current form.

Does that make sense.

*Doc' hopes it does, because his brain is starting to hurt...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 17
From: Aerio Chrome aeriochrome@****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:54:35 -0500
On Sun, 9 May 1999 13:25:46 EDT TalonMail@***.com writes:
<snip>
>The "Willpower" option is still available in SR3. Use Willpower as
>Combat Skill and Charisma as Strength for base damage. The spirit gets
NO
>armor against this type of attack. (I don't have my books handy at the
>moment so I can't provide a page reference. Anybody else got one?)
>
>Yes, spirit armor is Hardened against normal weapons and, yes, that
>means that high Force spirits are practically immune to things like
gunfire.
>If you want to take out a Force 5+ spirit you're got two options: use
magic,
>or fight the sucker in melee combat (using Willpower). We decided that
>runners gunning down powerful spirits didn't suit how they were supposed
to
>work in Shadowrun.

Is this Hardened as in vehicle armor? That means that the base power must
exceed the armor rating? If so, that's pretty ugly....
Do characters shooting spirits get bonuses from cyber (i.e., smartlink,
customized weapon, reflex recorder, etc.)??

<snip original question>
>True, and such characters are viable, but let's not forget a few
>limiting factors:
>
>* For every Deadly wound the mage takes from implant surgery, he has
>to make a Magic Loss check (in addition to the Magic lost from losing
>Essence). I know plenty of GMs who ignore this option, but I'd use it if
a player
>is trying to get all the bennies with no drawbacks.
<snip conditions>

I never meant to imply that this was a GOOD idea. Unfortunately I've
played with enough people who tend to milk the system for every little
advantage that I tend to see the possibilities in everything.

<snip social consequences>
> I tend to recommend GM cruelty in this situation.

LOL. I like that......

>Hope that helps,
>Steve
>
>Kenson's Cranial Collection
>http://members.aol.com/talonmail

Thanks for your answers. Good work with MITS and Crossroads (I finished
reading that not too long ago).
Aeriochrome
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Message no. 18
From: Ken Ken@********.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:41:42 -0400
<snip>
Do characters shooting spirits get bonuses from cyber (i.e., smartlink,
customized weapon, reflex recorder, etc.)??
<Snip>

AS I recall, Firearms damage spirits less. Something about the weapon (eg
the bullet) leaving the wielder and losing a connection with the attacker
of some sort. As I recall melee weapons are more effective (although MUCH
more risky...fancy a bit of the old Rough and tumble with that Cockroach
spirit?). Not with anything less than a monofiliment whip thanks very
much..
Message no. 19
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:11:43 -0500
> <Snippola(TM)>
> > I would say that this applies to Physical Adepts also because it's a
> Contest of Wills and not a Physical attack. If they want to use Killing
> Hands, then they have to use standard Melee rules (and go against
> Hardened Armor). Bugs are tough as they should be....the answer?
> Panther Cannon ;)
> > Jamz@*********.net
>
> Jamz, I agree with everything you say, except for one thing.
>
> If spirits have Hardened Armour naturally, you're totally correct. If,
> on the other hand, spirits have Hardened Armour vs. normal weapons due
> to possessing the Immunity to Normal Weapons power (as I suspect it is,
> but still haven't checked), then there's one thing wrong with your
> previous statements. An adept with Killing Hands is NOT using normal
> weapons. Killing Hands is a magical attack and thus is not effected by
> the Immunity to Normal Weapons power.

And I agree with all of that :) I wanted to double check as Immunity to
Normal Weapons can get a little grey because things like combat spells and
foci are unaffected by it but elemental effects such as manipulation spells
go against half the armor and are still somewhat affected by it, so where
would Killing Hands fit in? Luckily they included it in the description that
Immunity to Normal Weapons has no effect on Killing hands so that's a no
brainer.
My thinking was that bugs have an Exoskeleton and the Hardened Armor was
natural (like dragons) therefore Killing Hands would face it normally. I
went to research this a little better to see what armor was actually
hardened and such but I couldn't find it in SR3 or MITS, in fact I couldn't
find any spirits with either (except for dragons). I thought Elementals had
Immunity to normal weapons but it's not listed under powers...The bug
spirits didn't have it listed either. All I could find was that flesh forms
have no natural armor but may were conventional armor....
I don't have the GM screen so I don't know what the critter book has
listed. Anyone?

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:18:11 +1000
Jamz writes:
> My thinking was that bugs have an Exoskeleton and the
> Hardened Armor was
> natural (like dragons) therefore Killing Hands would face it normally. I
> went to research this a little better to see what armor was actually
> hardened and such but I couldn't find it in SR3 or MITS, in fact
> I couldn't
> find any spirits with either (except for dragons). I thought
> Elementals had
> Immunity to normal weapons but it's not listed under powers...The bug
> spirits didn't have it listed either. All I could find was that
> flesh forms
> have no natural armor but may were conventional armor....
> I don't have the GM screen so I don't know what the critter book has
> listed. Anyone?

Immunity to Normal Weapons (Ranged) is a side-effect of the manifestation
power. No, really! Look it up. :)

Ranged attacks on Manifesting creatures are treated as if the creature had
Hardened armour equal to their Essence/Force.

Non-ranged attacks on Manifesting creatures are done with Willpower (or
Conjury), not the appropriate Combat Skill, unless the person has a weapon
that can directly affect Astral beings, such as a weapon Focus. I'd put
Killing Hands into that second category. The reason for this is that
Manifesting creatures aren't totally there. By attacking them, you're trying
to break up their astral cohesion. Material objects don't do that very well,
so it's the strength of will of the wielder.

As for Bugs... if they have Immunity to Normal Weapons listed as a power,
then that is on top of the Immunity granted due to their Manifestation
ability (well... only True Form bugs can Manifest, anyway). But that's what
those gel rounds with insecticide in them are for, isn't it? ;)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 21
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:27:52 -0500
> > If you're in Astral form only, then it wouldn't matter what form the
> Elemental was in, you could only affect his Astral form, not his
> physical. He would only be dual natured at that point, same for
> vampires or any other dual natured critter.
> > Jamz@*********.net
>
> Not exactly right, Jamz.
>
> When a spirit manifests, it no longer has a 'pure' astral form. It is,
> as you say, dual-natured. The thing is, being dual-natured is,
> essentially, having a reflection of your physical form on the astral
> plane. If that's the case, you're still dealing with an astrally active
> physical being, which means you deal with the physical form, no matter
> your own state.
>
> Now, if that astrally perceiving mage is attacked by an astral spirit
> or other astral phenomenon, does he use the characteristics of his
> astral body (Bod = Wil, Qui = Int, Str = Cha and all that)? Nope, he
> still uses his physical characteristics. Why? Well, there are two
> possibilities. The first is that the astral phenomenon is using the
> link the mage has created by using perception to attack his physical
> body. The second is that the astral body is still limited by the
> constraints of the physical body. Either way, the end effect is the
> same. The physical statistics are used, not the astral ones.
>

I agree with what you are saying here but here's what I'm trying to say.
If you are Astrally Projecting, what kind of attacks can you make at a
spirit whether or not he has manifested? Mana attacks only. How are those
resisted? Willpower. When will the earth elemental benefit from the +4
body??? You still can't affect him physically, only with Mana.

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 22
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:34:21 -0500
> Immunity to Normal Weapons (Ranged) is a side-effect of the manifestation
> power. No, really! Look it up. :)
>
> Ranged attacks on Manifesting creatures are treated as if the creature had
> Hardened armour equal to their Essence/Force.
>
> Non-ranged attacks on Manifesting creatures are done with Willpower (or
> Conjury), not the appropriate Combat Skill, unless the person has a weapon
> that can directly affect Astral beings, such as a weapon Focus. I'd put
> Killing Hands into that second category. The reason for this is that
> Manifesting creatures aren't totally there. By attacking them, you're
trying
> to break up their astral cohesion. Material objects don't do that very
well,
> so it's the strength of will of the wielder.
>
> As for Bugs... if they have Immunity to Normal Weapons listed as a power,
> then that is on top of the Immunity granted due to their Manifestation
> ability (well... only True Form bugs can Manifest, anyway). But that's
what
> those gel rounds with insecticide in them are for, isn't it? ;)
>

I just saw it under Materialization after I posted :) But in SR3, it
says nothing about ranged attacks. In SR3, ITNW works for all attacks. And
you do not have to use Willpower to engage a spirit in hand-2-hand combat,
its your choice to enter into the combat of wills therefore bypassing any
immunity or armor or combat pool but you're only doing stun damage then.
As for Bugs, they have the materialization therefore ITNW but no mention
of Harden Armor, was are GM just being nasty? :)

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:31:53 +1000
Jamz writes:
> I agree with what you are saying here but here's what I'm trying to say.
> If you are Astrally Projecting, what kind of attacks can you make at a
> spirit whether or not he has manifested? Mana attacks only. How are those
> resisted? Willpower. When will the earth elemental benefit from the +4
> body??? You still can't affect him physically, only with Mana.

No.

Go back to the earlier scenario: Astral mage in combat with a perceiving
mage. Obviously, the perceiving mage uses his physical stats, not his astral
ones.

By the same token, the elemental will use his Manifested stats, not his
astral ones.

And you do affect him physically. His form is bridging the two states, and
attacks on him from the Astral are reflected in the physical. He is DUAL
natured... he doesn't have two seperate bodies, he has one that is present
in both the Astral and the mundane.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 24
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:35:07 -0700 (PDT)
> I agree with what you are saying here but here's what I'm trying to
say. If you are Astrally Projecting, what kind of attacks can you make
at a spirit whether or not he has manifested? Mana attacks only. How
are those resisted? Willpower. When will the earth elemental benefit
from the +4 body??? You still can't affect him physically, only with
Mana.
> Jamz@*********.net

Okay - guess that makes sense.

Are all 'astral combat' attacks resisted by willpower? If they are,
then I think I'd better go back and reread that section...

*Doc' tries to remember so hard his head explodes...again... Time for a
new wing in his museum of swelled heads...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 25
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT)
> No.
>
> Go back to the earlier scenario: Astral mage in combat with a
perceiving mage. Obviously, the perceiving mage uses hisphysical stats,
not his astral ones.
>
> By the same token, the elemental will use his Manifested stats, not
his astral ones.
>
> And you do affect him physically. His form is bridging the two
states, and attacks on him from the Astral are reflected in the
physical. He is DUAL natured... he doesn't have two seperate bodies, he
has one that is present in both the Astral and the mundane.
> robert.watkins@******.com

Lordy.

Robert agreed with me on a RULES question.

*Doc' looks stunned. "Has the world gone mad??"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:50:41 +1000
Doc' writes:
> Lordy.
>
> Robert agreed with me on a RULES question.
>
> *Doc' looks stunned. "Has the world gone mad??"*

Can I help it if you're starting to figure out what the rules are? :)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:11:01 +0200
According to Robert Watkins, at 17:18 on 11 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Immunity to Normal Weapons (Ranged) is a side-effect of the manifestation
> power. No, really! Look it up. :)

You are talking about second-edition rules. In third edition, any
materialized spirit has ItNW against _all_ attacks, except when the
attacker chooses to roll Willpower instead of a Combat skill in melee
combat.

--
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Message no. 28
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:11:01 +0200
According to Aerio Chrome, at 19:54 on 10 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Is this Hardened as in vehicle armor? That means that the base power must
> exceed the armor rating? If so, that's pretty ugly....

Just read the descriptions of the powers in SR3 and/or the Critters book --
SR3 page 264: materialized spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal
Weapons, which you can then refer to on the same page; it says that the
Power Level has to exceed twice the spirit's Essence.

So yes, that's pretty ugly.

> Do characters shooting spirits get bonuses from cyber (i.e., smartlink,
> customized weapon, reflex recorder, etc.)??

I don't see why they wouldn't...

--
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Another year and then you'll be happy.
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Message no. 29
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:32:50 -0500
I don't agree with this...
>>If they want to use Killing Hands, then they have to use standard
>>Melee rules (and go against Hardened Armor).

Killing hands is considered a "Magical Attack". Just like a spell. The
"Hardened Armor" is only against Non-magical weapons. An adept with
Killing hands should be able to do some serious damage to a spirit.
Message no. 30
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:55:04 EDT
Hi all, apologies in advance for the snippage, but I wanted to keep my reply
to this thread as concise as possible:

Re: Astral Combat against spirits:
If you attack a manifest spirit with an active weapon focus you fight the
spirit in physical combat. Use the normal melee combat rules. The spirit gets
no Immunity to magical weapons. If you are using astral perception or
projection when you attack, then you can engage the spirit in astral combat.
If the spirit is materialized, then it works pretty much the same as physical
combat (except you use your astral stats, if you're projecting). If the
spirit is in astral form, then its straight astral combat.

Keep in mind that damage in astral combat is resisted by BODY, like any other
damage. The difference is that astral forms have Body equal to their
Willpower, not their physical Body. So a dual form spirit may get some extra
dice for resisting damage, since it's Body rating is now higher.

Re: Killing Hands
Killing hands are considered "magical weapons," so the Immunity to Normal
Weapons power does NOT work against them. Killing hands work in either
physical or astral combat.

Re: Shooting Spirits
Shooting at spirits with ranged weapons follows all the normal rules for
ranged combat including target number modifiers, smartlinks, burst fire, etc.
Spirits have HARDENED armor equal to twice their Force, so ranged weapons
with a Power lower than the spirit's armor don't hurt them at all. If you
want to shoot a powerful spirit, you need a REALLY big gun.

Re: Elemental Spells and Immunity
IMHO, spells are also considered "magical weapons" and are NOT affected by a
spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons, even spells that normally go against
armor, like manipulations. If a critter has another sort of Resistance that
would apply (such as Resistance to Fire vs. Flamethrower) it protects
normally. (And elementals are simply immune to attacks from their own
element, IMHO).

Re: Elementals and Immunity
Jamz@*********.Net wrote: >>>I thought Elementals had Immunity to normal
weapons but it's not listed under powers.<<<

Technically, they DON'T have the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. Immunity
to Normal Weapons is an automatic part of the Materialization power, which
most spirits DO have. Therefore it's not listed as a seperate power.

Re: Bugs & Armor
Here's how it works...

True form insect spirits are like other spirits: they have Materialization
(and the attendant Immunity to Normal Weapons). See above for talk about how
ItNW works. Flesh form bugs have NO armor, other than whatever armor they
might be able to wear. They make great cannon-fodder to chop up with
automatic weapons (except for those soldier flesh-forms wearing armor
jackets, etc.)

Of course, flesh form soldiers can still have pretty fearsome Strength and
Quickness ratings. A "good merge" Force 5 soldier has Physical Attributes of
(host body +5). Wearing modern body armor and carrying some weapons, he can
take on a samurai or adept.

I think that covers it. Hope it helps.

Have fun!
Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 31
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:31:17 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to TalonMail@***.com."

<snip everything>

] I think that covers it. Hope it helps.

Wow, sure does! Thank you very much (especially for the bug thing,
that had been bug--er, bothering me).

-Murder of One
Message no. 32
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:20:39 EDT
In a message dated 5/11/1999 2:26:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Jamz@*********.Net writes:

>
> I agree with what you are saying here but here's what I'm trying to say.
> If you are Astrally Projecting, what kind of attacks can you make at a
> spirit whether or not he has manifested? Mana attacks only. How are those
> resisted? Willpower. When will the earth elemental benefit from the +4
> body??? You still can't affect him physically, only with Mana.

In order:

All combat in Astral Projection-land is melee, there is no ranged combat.

Elemental resists the attacks with his Body attribute, whatever that may be.
Please note, that once Materialized/Manifested, the elemental gains a +4 to
his body, and it is treated as being a Dual Nature being.

And lastly, as you aren't *physical* yourself, then you can't affect the
physical world the elemental can. However, as the elemental is Dual Natured,
it can.

Folks, please don't take offense, but the answers have existed this way for a
LONG time now. It is all a matter of slowing down and reading the material
and not "speed reading it for interest"

-K (who is in "Planes" in MitS on a page-by-page perusal now...yep, more
than a few changes...PBEM and Home Group are gonna *LOVE* me ;-)
Message no. 33
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:23:18 EDT
In a message dated 5/11/1999 3:52:04 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> According to Aerio Chrome, at 19:54 on 10 May 99, the word on
> the street was...
> > Is this Hardened as in vehicle armor? That means that the base power must
> > exceed the armor rating? If so, that's pretty ugly....
>
> Just read the descriptions of the powers in SR3 and/or the Critters book --
> SR3 page 264: materialized spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal
> Weapons, which you can then refer to on the same page; it says that the
> Power Level has to exceed twice the spirit's Essence.

Gurth, please don't forget the comparison to "Vehicle Armor" that he made.
He is referring to the "drops the damage code by one level" as well as the
normal stuff. Sadly, this is not clarified with 100% distinction. Vehicle
Armor is Hardened, and Vehicular in nature. Hardened Armor is NOT Vehicular
in nature.

-K

>
> So yes, that's pretty ugly.
>
> > Do characters shooting spirits get bonuses from cyber (i.e., smartlink,
> > customized weapon, reflex recorder, etc.)??
>
> I don't see why they wouldn't...
Message no. 34
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:15:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > Lordy.
> >
> > Robert agreed with me on a RULES question.
> >
> > *Doc' looks stunned. "Has the world gone mad??"*
>
> Can I help it if you're starting to figure out what the rules are? :)
> robert.watkins@******.com

Can I help it if you're starting to figure out what humour is?

*Doc' cries..."Shoot me...somebody shoot me.."

"Hey, I was joking! Put that do.."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 35
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:19:44 -0500
> Hi all, apologies in advance for the snippage, but I wanted to keep my
reply
> to this thread as concise as possible:

Ditto :)

> Re: Astral Combat against spirits:
> If you attack a manifest spirit with an active weapon focus you fight the
> spirit in physical combat. Use the normal melee combat rules. The spirit
gets
> no Immunity to magical weapons. If you are using astral perception or
> projection when you attack, then you can engage the spirit in astral
combat.
> If the spirit is materialized, then it works pretty much the same as
physical
> combat (except you use your astral stats, if you're projecting). If the
> spirit is in astral form, then its straight astral combat.

I have been convinced. I was hung up on the One way glass analogy and spell
casting, So I read the astral combat rules again, I guess it helps to read.

> Re: Shooting Spirits
> Shooting at spirits with ranged weapons follows all the normal rules for
> ranged combat including target number modifiers, smartlinks, burst fire,
etc.
> Spirits have HARDENED armor equal to twice their Force, so ranged weapons
> with a Power lower than the spirit's armor don't hurt them at all. If you
> want to shoot a powerful spirit, you need a REALLY big gun.

I still don't see where this is coming from?? Hardened Armor and Immunity
are
2 separate spirit powers and unless the spirit has it listed under powers,
It doesn't have it. Immunity of course is granted by the Materialization as
you said but it doesn't make it Hardened. If a spirit has NATURAL armor like
a dragon, then it's Body stat would be like 18/8 with the /8 being armor and
if the spirit also has Hardened Armor as a power, then it's Natural armor
would be also be Hardened Armor (which it would also get on the Astral
Plane).

> Re: Elemental Spells and Immunity
> IMHO, spells are also considered "magical weapons" and are NOT affected by
a
> spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons, even spells that normally go against
> armor, like manipulations. If a critter has another sort of Resistance
that
> would apply (such as Resistance to Fire vs. Flamethrower) it protects
> normally. (And Elementals are simply immune to attacks from their own
> element, IMHO).

Remember though that a Manipulation spell manifests on the physical plane
before exploding or what ever and pretty much acts like a grenade or fire
bomb or whatever and they did take into consideration that it was magical in
origin which is why they only get half the armor bestow upon them. Though I
would agree that it makes since that they would then get no armor Vs
elemental effects from their same plane but this does give shaman spirits an
advantage over Elementals...

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 36
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:40:26 +0200
According to TalonMail@***.com, at 11:55 on 11 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Re: Shooting Spirits
> Shooting at spirits with ranged weapons follows all the normal rules for
> ranged combat including target number modifiers, smartlinks, burst fire, etc.
> Spirits have HARDENED armor equal to twice their Force, so ranged weapons
> with a Power lower than the spirit's armor don't hurt them at all. If you
> want to shoot a powerful spirit, you need a REALLY big gun.
[snip]
> I think that covers it. Hope it helps.

Just one more thing: explosives. From various books, the impression
appears that spirits are not affected by explosions or similar damage
(collapsing buildings) _at_all_ due to the impersonal nature of the
attack, yet AFAIK there is no rule anywhere that explicitly says so.

I've for a long time played it like that -- lob a grenade at a spirit, it
goes boom, and the spirit keeps moving toward you -- but it'd be nice to
be able to point to a book and say "This is where that comes from,"
especially now that more and more of my players have been buying SR
rulebooks and wondering about a lot of little rules our groups use, but
that don't appear in any book :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 37
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:50:44 +1000
At 01:20 11/05/99 -0400, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>-K (who is in "Planes" in MitS on a page-by-page perusal now...yep, more
>than a few changes...PBEM and Home Group are gonna *LOVE* me ;-)

More than a few changes? Damn, where's my copy!


Chris
Message no. 38
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:38:35 -0500
"Jamz" <Jamz@*********.net>
05/12/99 01:19 AM


Please respond to shadowrn@*********.org



To: "ShadowRN Mailing List" <ShadowRN@*********.org>
cc: (bcc: Chris M. Petro/Household International)
Subject: Re: MITS/Magic questions





Jamz Writes:
>>Remember though that a Manipulation spell manifests on the physical plane
>>before exploding or what ever and pretty much acts like a grenade or fire
>>bomb or whatever and they did take into consideration that it was magical
in
>>origin which is why they only get half the armor bestow upon them. Though
I
>>would agree that it makes since that they would then get no armor Vs
>>elemental effects from their same plane but this does give shaman spirits
an
>>advantage over Elementals...


That's ok, Elementals have several advantages over Shamanic Spirits. ie
aren't restricted by place (can go from inside a building to outside) and
stick around longer than 1 day and 1 nite (or visa-versa).
Message no. 39
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:51:16 EDT
"Jamz" <Jamz@*********.Net> wrote:
>>>I still don't see where this is coming from?? Hardened Armor and Immunity
are 2 separate spirit powers and unless the spirit has it listed under powers,
It doesn't have it. Immunity of course is granted by the Materialization as
you said but it doesn't make it Hardened. If a spirit has NATURAL armor like
a dragon, then it's Body stat would be like 18/8 with the /8 being armor and
if the spirit also has Hardened Armor as a power, then it's Natural armor
would be also be Hardened Armor (which it would also get on the Astral
Plane).<<<

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that spirits *effectively* have
"hardened armor."

From the description of the Immunity power (SR3):

"In addition, if the Power of the damage does not exceed twice the creature's
Essence, it automatically has no effect."

Thus, Immunity to Normal Weapons provides the equivalent of Hardened Armor
(which has the same effect).

Hope that helps,
Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 40
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:51:18 EDT
>>>Just one more thing: explosives. From various books, the impression
appears that spirits are not affected by explosions or similar damage
(collapsing buildings) _at_all_ due to the impersonal nature of the
attack, yet AFAIK there is no rule anywhere that explicitly says so.<<<

Not as far as I know. Of course, Immunity to Normal Weapons DOES provide
fairly substantial protection against explosives. If you prefer for things
like grenades, etc. to have less effect on spirits, I would: 1) ignore the
overpressure rules for spirits; and/or 2) drop the damage level of explosives
against spirits by one.

Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 41
From: Razors Edge. razrzedge@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
--- TalonMail@***.com wrote:
> Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that
> spirits *effectively* have
> "hardened armor."
>
> From the description of the Immunity power (SR3):
>
> "In addition, if the Power of the damage does not
> exceed twice the creature's
> Essence, it automatically has no effect."
>
> Thus, Immunity to Normal Weapons provides the
> equivalent of Hardened Armor
> (which has the same effect).
>

Is it the base power value of the weapon we look at or
the total power as modified by burst and autofire
bonuses? Could a spirit with a force of 4, shrug off a
single blast from a Enfield AS-7 (8S) but be damaged
by a burst from the same gun (11D)? Or would it be
immune from any amount fire from an Enfield?

Thanks.

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Message no. 42
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:05:34 -0500
On Tue, 11 May 1999 11:55:04 EDT TalonMail@***.com writes:
>Hi all, apologies in advance for the snippage, but I wanted to keep my
reply
>to this thread as concise as possible:
>
>Re: Astral Combat against spirits:
<SNIP>
>Re: Killing Hands
<SNIP>
>Re: Shooting Spirits
<SNIP>

Maybe I just need to sit down and read the sections again but how does
this affect mundanes in (un)armed combat with spirits? Does the ItNW
apply vrs unarmed? (I was under the impression that it did not but did
apply versus armed attacks.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 43
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:33:35 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/1999 2:31:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

>
> Maybe I just need to sit down and read the sections again but how does
> this affect mundanes in (un)armed combat with spirits? Does the ItNW
> apply vrs unarmed? (I was under the impression that it did not but did
> apply versus armed attacks.)

You're right D.Ghost, Unarmed Combat is not effected by ItNW.

-K
Message no. 44
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:49:32 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 17:33 on 12 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Maybe I just need to sit down and read the sections again but how does
> > this affect mundanes in (un)armed combat with spirits? Does the ItNW
> > apply vrs unarmed? (I was under the impression that it did not but did
> > apply versus armed attacks.)
>
> You're right D.Ghost, Unarmed Combat is not effected by ItNW.

In third edition, the way the text is worded on pages 188 and 264, it
seems to me that spirits have ItNW against _all_ attacks, whether ranged
or HTH, armed or unarmed (though ranged, unarmed combat is a bit tricky :)
Specifically, on page 188 it says "Physical spirits have the power of
Immunity to Normal Weapons (...) against all attacks." Note the word "all"
in this sentence.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 45
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:49:31 +0200
According to TalonMail@***.com, at 13:51 on 12 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Not as far as I know. Of course, Immunity to Normal Weapons DOES provide
> fairly substantial protection against explosives.

...for spirits with a moderate to high Force rating. Force 1 or 2 in close
proximity to a grenade explosion will not survive much longer than a
shadowrunner at that same distance, and probably even shorter.

> If you prefer for things like grenades, etc. to have less effect on
> spirits, I would: 1) ignore the overpressure rules for spirits; and/or
> 2) drop the damage level of explosives against spirits by one.

That's much the same as I was thinking of doing. Or do away with the dice
rolled to stage up the damage from the blast.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Another year and then you'll be happy.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 46
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:30:05 EDT
>>In a message dated 5/12/1999 12:59:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>>TalonMail@***.com writes
>> >>>If you astrally quest for "Learn Spell" which reduces the
force of the
>> spell for purposes of karma by one point per rating and adds one dice per
>> rating (p. 94 bottom right corner). Does this mean that I can make a
>> rating 5 astral quest for a force 5 spell and not have to pay any karma
>> for it? (Which would seem to me would eliminate both the time and karma
>> cost of the spell to zero.)<<<
>>
>> IMHO, the effective Force of the spell cannot drop below 1.
>
>OH YES!!!!! (sorry, had to do that). This is something that I've been
>wondering what happened too since Grimoire I. Hell Steve, got a flipside
>question for you then. If you do the same thing for an Enchantment
>Formulae...what then????

I would recommend not reducing the Karma cost of things like foci using
astral quests; it quickly lets them get out of control. If you do, however,
I'd recommend the same limit, that the rating never drop below 1.

Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com
Message no. 47
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:30:07 EDT
"Razors Edge." <razrzedge@*****.com> writes:
>>>Is it the base power value of the weapon we look at or
the total power as modified by burst and autofire
bonuses? Could a spirit with a force of 4, shrug off a
single blast from a Enfield AS-7 (8S) but be damaged
by a burst from the same gun (11D)? Or would it be
immune from any amount fire from an Enfield?<<<

Base power, just like Hardened Armor.

dghost@****.com writes:
>>>Maybe I just need to sit down and read the sections again but how does
this affect mundanes in (un)armed combat with spirits? Does the ItNW
apply vrs unarmed? (I was under the impression that it did not but did
apply versus armed attacks.)<<<

OK, here's how it works. The inheirent Immunity to Normal Weapons possessed
by a materialized spirit works as Hardened Armor equal to twice the spirit's
Force against ALL attacks: ranged, armed, unarmed, etc. with two exceptions:

* Magical weapons ignore the spirit's Immunity. This includes weapon foci,
spells, an adept's Killing Hands, and (at the GMs discretion) critter powers.
The attacker uses his normal combat skill, Combat Pool, etc. Use the spirit's
normal material stats, but it gets no armor.

* A battle of wills allows a person in *melee* with the spirit to roll
Willpower as if it were a Combat Skill. The attacker gets no Combat Pool.
Reach modifiers for weapons still apply, but damage is (Charisma)M Stun
regardless of weapon. The spirit rolls its Body to resist damage normally,
but gets no armor.

So, you can either attack a material spirit in melee normally, getting to use
your normal skill, Combat Pool, and damage (and hope you have an attack that
can overcome its armor), or engage it in a battle of wills, rolling
(generally) fewer dice, with less damage, but ignoring its armor. You pays
your nuyen, and you takes your chances.

Me, I'm gonna yell at the magician to banish the fraggin' thing. : )

Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 48
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: MITS/Magic Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:03:20 -0400
At 11:30 AM 5/13/99 , TalonMail@***.com wrote:
>>OH YES!!!!! (sorry, had to do that). This is something that I've been
>>wondering what happened too since Grimoire I. Hell Steve, got a flipside
>>question for you then. If you do the same thing for an Enchantment
>>Formulae...what then????
>
>I would recommend not reducing the Karma cost of things like foci using
>astral quests; it quickly lets them get out of control. If you do, however,
>I'd recommend the same limit, that the rating never drop below 1.
>
>Steve

I just though that I would throw out a big thanks to you for loggin all of
these answers to tha various twistings of the rules that we're all coming
up with here. Its nice to see that you care enough about the product that
you helped to create to clarify things like this that might be a little
fuzzy, or were never thought of in the first place.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 49
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:22:58 -0500
:> Maybe I just need to sit down and read the sections again but how does
:> this affect mundanes in (un)armed combat with spirits? Does the ItNW
:> apply vrs unarmed? (I was under the impression that it did not but did
:> apply versus armed attacks.)
:
:You're right D.Ghost, Unarmed Combat is not effected by ItNW.
:-K


Are you sure about that, K? I don't see any such note under the
"immunity" description on p.264, in the "physical form" description on
p.
188, or in the unarmed combat rules. A mundanes fists are, afaik, "normal
weapons" used in a physical attack. A mundane can make a melee attack using
"force of will" (per p. 188), but you can use a melee weapon to do so
(although it won't affect damage, it can give you reach).

Mongoose
Message no. 50
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:28:31 +1000
At 11:30 13/05/99 -0400, TalonMail@***.com wrote:
>* A battle of wills allows a person in *melee* with the spirit to roll
>Willpower as if it were a Combat Skill. The attacker gets no Combat Pool.
>Reach modifiers for weapons still apply, but damage is (Charisma)M Stun
>regardless of weapon. The spirit rolls its Body to resist damage normally,
>but gets no armor.
>

The rules on p188 say that the spirit, in this physical melee vs. a character's
Willpower, may only resist damage with its Force (not its Body - they may be
different - is this a typo?), no armor protects and no combat pool can be used
in this resistance test.

However, can the spirit use its combat pool for counter-attacking this
Willpower attack? The attacker does not have access to combat pool but if the
spirit can use the pool for counter-attacking then the person attacking by
strength of Will has a very tough job. (The sentence which states that the
spirit may not use combat pool is obviously referring to the resistance test
only.)


Chris
Message no. 51
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic Questions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:09:12 -0400
On Thu, 13 May 1999 11:30:05 EDT TalonMail@***.com writes:
>>>In a message dated 5/12/1999 12:59:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>>>TalonMail@***.com writes
>>> >>>If you astrally quest for "Learn Spell" which reduces
the force
>of the
>>> spell for purposes of karma by one point per rating and adds one
>dice per
>>> rating (p. 94 bottom right corner). Does this mean that I can
>make a
>>> rating 5 astral quest for a force 5 spell and not have to pay any
>karma
>>> for it? (Which would seem to me would eliminate both the time
>and karma
>>> cost of the spell to zero.)<<<
>>>
>>> IMHO, the effective Force of the spell cannot drop below 1.
>>
>>OH YES!!!!! (sorry, had to do that). This is something that I've
>been
>>wondering what happened too since Grimoire I. Hell Steve, got a
>flipside
>>question for you then. If you do the same thing for an Enchantment
>>Formulae...what then????
>
>I would recommend not reducing the Karma cost of things like foci
>using
>astral quests; it quickly lets them get out of control. If you do,
>however,
>I'd recommend the same limit, that the rating never drop below 1.
>
Okay, Steve, what about the original question? Can you really learn a
spell for "free" by using an astral quest?

*************************************************************************
********************
Griffin Industries
http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

"If you just want to kill things, play D&D."

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Message no. 52
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: MITS/Magic Questions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 01:41:48 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Hunter."
] Okay, Steve, what about the original question? Can you really learn a
] spell for "free" by using an astral quest?

He already answered that. He recommends not letting the rating drop
below 1.

-Murder of One
Message no. 53
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic Questions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:58:33 -0400
On Fri, 14 May 1999 01:41:48 -0300 Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>
writes:
>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Hunter."
>] Okay, Steve, what about the original question? Can you
>really learn a
>] spell for "free" by using an astral quest?
>
> He already answered that. He recommends not letting the rating
>drop
>below 1.
>
Actually it was:
"I would recommend not reducing the Karma cost of things like foci using
astral quests; it quickly lets them get out of control. If you do,
however,
I'd recommend the same limit, that the rating never drop below 1."
As far as I can tell he's refering to foci not spells.
But that could just be the way I'm reading it.

*************************************************************************
********************
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http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

"If you just want to kill things, play D&D."

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Message no. 54
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MITS/Magic Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:51:27 -0700 (PDT)
> Actually it was:
> "I would recommend not reducing the Karma cost of things like foci
using astral quests; it quickly lets them get out of control. If you
do, however, I'd recommend the same limit, that the rating never drop
below 1."
> As far as I can tell he's refering to foci not
> spells.
> But that could just be the way I'm reading it.
> Griffin Industries

Hunter -

See where Steve says, "I'd recommend the SAME limit"? Well, what he's
talking about there is a previous comment related to learning spells
via quests, wherein he said in his opinion, the cost shouldn't be
reduced below 1.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 55
From: Jamz Jamz@*********.Net
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 05:14:11 -0500
> OK, here's how it works. The inheirent Immunity to Normal Weapons
possessed
> by a materialized spirit works as Hardened Armor equal to twice the
spirit's
> Force against ALL attacks: ranged, armed, unarmed, etc. with two
exceptions:
>
> * Magical weapons ignore the spirit's Immunity. This includes weapon foci,
> spells, an adept's Killing Hands, and (at the GMs discretion) critter
powers.
> The attacker uses his normal combat skill, Combat Pool, etc. Use the
spirit's
> normal material stats, but it gets no armor.
>
> * A battle of wills allows a person in *melee* with the spirit to roll
> Willpower as if it were a Combat Skill. The attacker gets no Combat Pool.
> Reach modifiers for weapons still apply, but damage is (Charisma)M Stun
> regardless of weapon. The spirit rolls its Body to resist damage normally,
> but gets no armor.
>
> So, you can either attack a material spirit in melee normally, getting to
use
> your normal skill, Combat Pool, and damage (and hope you have an attack
that
> can overcome its armor), or engage it in a battle of wills, rolling
> (generally) fewer dice, with less damage, but ignoring its armor. You pays
> your nuyen, and you takes your chances.
>
> Me, I'm gonna yell at the magician to banish the fraggin' thing. : )
>
> Steve
>
> Kenson's Cranial Collection
> http://members.aol.com/talonmail
>

I guess if you read something enough times, it starts to make since ;) No
more arguments from me..

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
>
> The rules on p188 say that the spirit, in this physical melee vs. a
character's
> Willpower, may only resist damage with its Force (not its Body - they may
be
> different - is this a typo?), no armor protects and no combat pool can be
used
> in this resistance test.
>
> However, can the spirit use its combat pool for counter-attacking this
> Willpower attack? The attacker does not have access to combat pool but if
the
> spirit can use the pool for counter-attacking then the person attacking by
> strength of Will has a very tough job. (The sentence which states that the
> spirit may not use combat pool is obviously referring to the resistance
test
> only.)
>
>
> Chris
>

I can see the argument here but it looks more like the case of FASA not
wording it very well. If you want to rule lawyer this one, I would say that
the spirit gets the combat pool for his melee counter-attack roll but
personally I don't think that's what was intended and would only allow the
spirit to roll it's reaction dice.

Me, I agree with Steve and being the mage...I'm banishing the fraggin thing
:)

Peace,
Jamz@*********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 56
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic Questions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:12:14 EDT
In a message dated 5/13/1999 10:43:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
TalonMail@***.com writes:

>
> >OH YES!!!!! (sorry, had to do that). This is something that I've been
> >wondering what happened too since Grimoire I. Hell Steve, got a flipside
> >question for you then. If you do the same thing for an Enchantment
> >Formulae...what then????
>
> I would recommend not reducing the Karma cost of things like foci using
> astral quests; it quickly lets them get out of control. If you do,
however,
> I'd recommend the same limit, that the rating never drop below 1.

Oh of course, however, part of my point is that if the rating of the Quest to
do this is the number of points that is reduced, then Foci aren't going to be
quite as potentially abused (at least, not around here) as spells might be,
due to the concept of Foci *usually* having a higher karma cost.

-K
Message no. 57
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:15:19 EDT
In a message dated 5/13/1999 11:16:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

>
> Are you sure about that, K? I don't see any such note under the
> "immunity" description on p.264, in the "physical form"
description on p.
> 188, or in the unarmed combat rules. A mundanes fists are, afaik, "normal
> weapons" used in a physical attack. A mundane can make a melee attack
using
> "force of will" (per p. 188), but you can use a melee weapon to do so
> (although it won't affect damage, it can give you reach).
>
Steve clarified this one in another post. "Unarmed Combat" is effected by
the ItNW power, BUT there are some major restrictions. The "Test of Wills"
that Steve mentions might appear to be "Unarmed Combat", but it would be the
Willpower attribute at work, not all the rest of it.

-K
Message no. 58
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MITS/Magic questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:06:44 EDT
Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.org.au> wrote:
>>>The rules on p188 say that the spirit, in this physical melee vs. a
character's
Willpower, may only resist damage with its Force (not its Body - they may be
different - is this a typo?), no armor protects and no combat pool can be used
in this resistance test.<<<

Force, not Body. I stand corrected.

>>>However, can the spirit use its combat pool for counter-attacking this
Willpower attack?<<<

I'd say no.

Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail

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