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Message no. 1
From: Razors Edge. razrzedge@*****.com
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
Here we go...

The spells Transform/Shapechange (MitS p.148), can
they turn someone into any critter or only one
specific type declared at the time the spell is
learned (eg: Shapechange to bear, Transform to
goldfish)?

The Reinforce spell (MitS p.148), can it be used to
increase the barrier rating of a Physical Barrier
spell? Can it be used to improve the armor value of
non-magical personal armor?

The Shape Earth spell (MitS p.146), is the earth that
is being shaped still considered to be part of Mother
Earth? In other words, is it still a astral barrier
(special rules to project through)?

Can a Control Manipulation spell (SR3 p.196) be cast
on spirits? This spell category is described as spells
that "affect the actions and the thoughts of living
beings." Are spirits living beings? How about flesh
form Insects spirits? Zombies?

The Control Thought spell (SR3 p.196), can it be used
to spend the target's karma pool? (eg. the spell's
victim is given the thought control order of shoot to
kill a target. The resistence test by the victim to
resist and throw off the spell fails. He rolls to
attack and gets all ones. Does he spend his own
personal karma to off set that? Can the control spell
caster spend his?)

The Glue spell (MitS p.147), can it affect physical
objects other than people? If so, how would you
determine the strength of a vehicle? (eg. glueing the
tire of a stationary patrol car to the asphalt. What
would the patrol car's effective stregnth be?)

The Use(skill) spell (MitS p.146), does it have a +2
tn penalty like Magic Fingers (SR3 p.197)? Or does it
not apply because of the specialization of the spell?

Thanks for reading all of this. I understand several
of these answers would be based on your gaming group's
"house rules", but I just wanted to get an impression
of what other people thought.

Thanks again.


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Message no. 2
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:07:01 -0500
On Wed, 12 May 1999 12:03:38 -0700 (PDT) "Razors Edge."
<razrzedge@*****.com> writes:
>Here we go...
<SNIP>
>The Control Thought spell (SR3 p.196), can it be used
>to spend the target's karma pool? (eg. the spell's
>victim is given the thought control order of shoot to
>kill a target. The resistence test by the victim to
>resist and throw off the spell fails. He rolls to
>attack and gets all ones. Does he spend his own
>personal karma to off set that? Can the control spell
>caster spend his?)

I'd say that the actions, though commited by the target, are those of the
caster's. Thus, the caster may spend his own karma on those actions but
not the target's karma. This interpretation leads to another
interpretation: The roll of all 1's means that the attack missed because
the target regained control at the last minute (thus, the casyer is
spending karma, not only to avoid an oops, but also to maintain control.
:).

>The Glue spell (MitS p.147), can it affect physical
>objects other than people? If so, how would you
>determine the strength of a vehicle? (eg. glueing the
>tire of a stationary patrol car to the asphalt. What
>would the patrol car's effective stregnth be?)
<SNIP>

Off the top of my head, I would say to use the car's acceleration rating
in place of character strength. I haven't really looked into it and so I
don't know if this would work well or not. Just look at the vehicles
stats and use some good old fashioned GM descretion. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:32:27 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/1999 2:04:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
razrzedge@*****.com writes:

> Here we go...

<attaches Crash Cage and Safety Belts...what's this??? R2 doesn't come with
safety belts??!!?? (*CRASH*)>

> The spells Transform/Shapechange (MitS p.148), can
> they turn someone into any critter or only one
> specific type declared at the time the spell is
> learned (eg: Shapechange to bear, Transform to
> goldfish)?

Actually, as the copy I have reads, the words "at the time the spell is
learned" are nowhere to be found.

> The Reinforce spell (MitS p.148), can it be used to
> increase the barrier rating of a Physical Barrier
> spell? Can it be used to improve the armor value of
> non-magical personal armor?

Hmm....theoretically yes, but I'm not sure I'd allow it to work on a "magical
manifestation" of any kind, nor on something that must have a particular
amount of flexibility (as the coat would). Sure, Reinforce the strength of
the coat, and at the same time, make it a more rigid piece of undergarments
while you're at it.. ;-)

> The Shape Earth spell (MitS p.146), is the earth that
> is being shaped still considered to be part of Mother
> Earth? In other words, is it still a astral barrier
> (special rules to project through)?

Accordingly to the rules, no. "Mother Earth" needs to be "unworked"
earth
IIRC, but I could easily be wrong in my interpretation.

> Can a Control Manipulation spell (SR3 p.196) be cast
> on spirits? This spell category is described as spells
> that "affect the actions and the thoughts of living
> beings." Are spirits living beings? How about flesh
> form Insects spirits? Zombies?

(*Laughs uncontrollably*) Oh Steve, I feel SOOOO sorry for you....

> The Control Thought spell (SR3 p.196), can it be used
> to spend the target's karma pool? (eg. the spell's
> victim is given the thought control order of shoot to
> kill a target. The resistence test by the victim to
> resist and throw off the spell fails. He rolls to
> attack and gets all ones. Does he spend his own
> personal karma to off set that? Can the control spell
> caster spend his?)

NO!!! Karma is a fact of free will. Otherwise Free Spirits with Possession
would be the most Karmic Rich things on the face of the planet...

> The Glue spell (MitS p.147), can it affect physical
> objects other than people? If so, how would you
> determine the strength of a vehicle? (eg. glueing the
> tire of a stationary patrol car to the asphalt. What
> would the patrol car's effective stregnth be?)

IMO, I would double either the Bod of the vehicle (as a representation of
Mass to be imparted in momentum) or as a representation of it's Accel (yes,
this means Jet engines *WILL* get away ;)

> The Use(skill) spell (MitS p.146), does it have a +2
> tn penalty like Magic Fingers (SR3 p.197)? Or does it
> not apply because of the specialization of the spell?

IMO, I would say yes, for the spell is being *VERY* selective as to what is
going to be performable. Please note however that the Sustaining Modifier
will be involved.

> Thanks for reading all of this. I understand several
> of these answers would be based on your gaming group's
> "house rules", but I just wanted to get an impression
> of what other people thought.

Actually, I thought they were rather good.

-K (who would *really* like to see Steve's response to that Flesh Form one
above..>)
Message no. 4
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:30:04 EDT
"Razors Edge." <razrzedge@*****.com> wrote:
>>>The spells Transform/Shapechange (MitS p.148), can
they turn someone into any critter or only one
specific type declared at the time the spell is
learned (eg: Shapechange to bear, Transform to
goldfish)?<<<

Any critter. A version of either spell that could only do one form has the
Very Restricted Target modifier (-1 Drain Level).

>>>The Reinforce spell (MitS p.148), can it be used to
increase the barrier rating of a Physical Barrier
spell? Can it be used to improve the armor value of
non-magical personal armor? <<<

I wouldn't allow the spell to work on magical "force fields" like a barrier.
I can affect things like armor. However, I'd tend to say that the spell
causes flexible things like armor to become more rigid, so every +1 Armor
Rating subtracts 1 die from the wearer's Combat Pool.

>>>The Shape Earth spell (MitS p.146), is the earth that
is being shaped still considered to be part of Mother
Earth? In other words, is it still a astral barrier
(special rules to project through)?<<<

I'd say yes, provided the material shaped remains in contact with natural
earth. (Makes for good quick astral barriers).

>>>Can a Control Manipulation spell (SR3 p.196) be cast
on spirits? This spell category is described as spells
that "affect the actions and the thoughts of living
beings." Are spirits living beings? How about flesh
form Insects spirits? Zombies?<<<

Yes, spirits are living beings and so can be affected by Control
Manipulations. However, for bound spirits I'd give them bonus dice on the
resistance test equal to their summoner's Charisma and use a Threshold of
half the spirit's Force or half it's summoner's Charisma (whichever is
higher). Bugs under the control of a Queen/Mother spirit use her Willpower
instead of their own to resist the spell (and to calculate Threshold). I'd
also say that Free Spirits are immune to Control Manipulations unless the
caster knows the spirit's True Name (that includes spirits like Insect
Queens).

>>>The Control Thought spell (SR3 p.196), can it be used
to spend the target's karma pool? (eg. the spell's
victim is given the thought control order of shoot to
kill a target. The resistence test by the victim to
resist and throw off the spell fails. He rolls to
attack and gets all ones. Does he spend his own
personal karma to off set that? Can the control spell
caster spend his?)<<<

No. The subject can't be forced to spend Karma because (IMHO) Karma is
intimately associated with free will. The caster cannot spend his own Karma
on the subject's actions, either. It reflects the fact that mind-controlled
puppets are rarely as effective as people acting of their own free will.

>>>The Glue spell (MitS p.147), can it affect physical
objects other than people? If so, how would you
determine the strength of a vehicle? (eg. glueing the
tire of a stationary patrol car to the asphalt. What
would the patrol car's effective stregnth be?)<<<

I like the idea of using the vehicle's Acceleration. Jon, any thoughts on
this one? Keep in mind that it's likely the vehicle's tires will probably
shred long before its Strength becomes much of an issue.

>>>The Use(skill) spell (MitS p.146), does it have a +2
tn penalty like Magic Fingers (SR3 p.197)? Or does it
not apply because of the specialization of the spell?<<<

The modifer still applies.

Take care,
Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 5
From: sean jamieson elf61@*******.com
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:50:58 PDT
> > The Glue spell (MitS p.147), can it affect physical
> > objects other than people? If so, how would you
> > determine the strength of a vehicle? (eg. glueing the
> > tire of a stationary patrol car to the asphalt. What
> > would the patrol car's effective stregnth be?)
>
>IMO, I would double either the Bod of the vehicle (as a representation of
>Mass to be imparted in momentum) or as a representation of it's Accel (yes,
>this means Jet engines *WILL* get away ;)
Just the engine though;-p
and that depends on whether or not the engine stays attached. could be a fun
thing to do.(grin)


when war is on the horizon, the law becomes silent.

Friends may come and go, and enemies may accumulate, but morons reproduce.



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Message no. 6
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:57 -0500
:>>>The spells Transform/Shapechange (MitS p.148), can
:they turn someone into any critter or only one
:specific type declared at the time the spell is
:learned (eg: Shapechange to bear, Transform to
:goldfish)?<<<
:
:Any critter. A version of either spell that could only do one form has the
:Very Restricted Target modifier (-1 Drain Level).

It still has all the same valid targets as before (eleves, orks, trolls,
the caster, his friends)-its the EFFECT that is restricted, no? By the
spell design rules, it seems the level of change is the same, so the drain
would be. Maybe the spell would be easier to cast, having a better effect
for a given force, given its specialized nature?
[Sheesh, I just realized I'm (still) arguing again with the guy who
WROTE those rules. The numbers work for me, its just a terminology thing.]

:>>>The Glue spell (MitS p.147), can it affect physical
:objects other than people? If so, how would you
:determine the strength of a vehicle? (eg. glueing the
:tire of a stationary patrol car to the asphalt. What
:would the patrol car's effective stregnth be?)<<<


Q for Steve- Do people targeted by this spell get a resitance test when
it is cast (allowing the spell to simply not work), or do they HAVE to try
to tear free? If they don't get a resitance test, does shielding /
reflection / spell defense have any effect on the spells use?

:I like the idea of using the vehicle's Acceleration. Jon, any thoughts on
:this one? Keep in mind that it's likely the vehicle's tires will probably
:shred long before its Strength becomes much of an issue.

Some low acceleration vehicles have GOBS of torque, and could rip a
stump from the earth. Isn't there a vehicle test for pulling heavy objects
or something? That would be the thing to use.
By its description, the Glue spell seems to weak to stop most vehicles;
Strenght equal to force. If a CHARACTER with that strength can't stop (or
hold down) the vehicle, the SPELL should not. I'd say, if vehicle's load
rating exceeds force x 20 (the amount the spell can "lift"), the vehicle
would break free quite easily. That lets it stop small drones, but not most
cars. I'm not sure the tires would be hamred, as tires stop heavy vehicles
under heavy breaking without undue damage, and that takes a LOT more
strength than the spell is described as having.
[Damn, I'm doing it again...]

Sebastian Wiers, AKA Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:27:37 +0200
According to Mongoose, at 12:21 on 13 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> By its description, the Glue spell seems to weak to stop most vehicles;
> Strenght equal to force. If a CHARACTER with that strength can't stop (or
> hold down) the vehicle, the SPELL should not. I'd say, if vehicle's load
> rating exceeds force x 20 (the amount the spell can "lift"), the vehicle
> would break free quite easily. That lets it stop small drones, but not most
> cars.

You're forgetting motorcycles. They tend to have Load ratings of 40 or so,
meaning that with this rule, most Glue spells (and characters) could stop
them easily. I somehow don't think it's that simple.

--
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Another year and then you'll be happy.
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Message no. 8
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:37:20 EDT
> >>>The Glue spell (MitS p.147), can it affect physical
> objects other than people? If so, how would you
> determine the strength of a vehicle? (eg. glueing the
> tire of a stationary patrol car to the asphalt. What
> would the patrol car's effective stregnth be?)<<<

> I like the idea of using the vehicle's Acceleration. Jon, any thoughts on
> this one? Keep in mind that it's likely the vehicle's tires will probably
> shred long before its Strength becomes much of an issue.

Actually, I would say Body + Acceleration. An Ares Citymaster, for example,
has a really crappy pickup, but I doubt that even a troll could stop it
from moving if it wanted to. (Can you say troll pancake?)

As far as shredding the tires and such, well, it depends. Do you know how
much actual surface area of a tire is in contact with the ground at any one
time? Not a lot, no more than a few square centimeters. Assuming the spell
only causes the vehicle to "stick" only where the two surfaces make
contact, then if the vehicle breaks free, all that will show is a
bald spot on each tire, from where it used to touch the ground. (On the
other hand, if you use the Glue Strip area spell, all bets are off. The
same thing too for tracked vehicles also.)

-- Jon
Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: MitS Spell Questions
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:16:56 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> >>>The Reinforce spell (MitS p.148), can it be used to increase the
barrier rating of a Physical Barrier spell? Can it be used to improve
the armor value of non-magical personal armor? <<<
>
> I wouldn't allow the spell to work on magical "force fields" like a
barrier. I can affect things like armor. However, I'd tend to say that
the spell causes flexible things like armor to become more rigid, so
every +1 Armor Rating subtracts 1 die from the wearer's Combat Pool.
<BigSnip(TM)>
<SteveK>

Hey, Steve, here's an idea.

Instead of making it a simple 1 for 1, why not use the rules for
layered armour in SR3?

Or just use the armour spell, if you don't mind people knowing you have
magical armour (I assume the Reinforce spell doesn't create the
'glowing field' effect - if it DOES, Armour is a better spell all the
way for improving personal armour).

*Doc' is stunned. "I think I actually came up with a useful rule
variation for Shadowrun...somebody pinch me..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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