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Message no. 1
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:15:46 -0500
On Fri, 3 Mar 2000 04:11:50 -0500 "Wolfstar" <wolfstar@********.net>
writes:
> > From: HHackerH@***.com
> > And just to let people know, I'll get them up on HHH, and I'm sure
> VN and
> the DR group will get them posted to their sites as soon as possible
> as
> well.
>
> And probably to be followed shortly thereafter with posting to
> Herkimer's
> Lair, since Dvixen mirrors every errata to hit the net. =)
>
> Wolfstar
>
>

Just a little note and endorsment. I don't have any of the erratta's on
my site, since I use the ones on Herkimers :-)

Besides, now we have to see about a little quirk in teh BBB and M&M.

Page 168 of BBB;
"For exampe, an adept with Magic 4 cannot have more than 4 points worth
of powers, none of which can have more than four levels"

then "adepts may purchase additional PP's at a cost of 20 GK/PP"

now, the erratta,for page 78 M&M;
"An adept whose Magic is reduced in this way cannot simultaneously use
more Power Points worth of powers than his effective Magic Rating."

So, can an adept have more PP's than his magic rating? if not, how could
he BUY any?

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 2
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:16:22 -0600
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chamber/5072/srmnvbr.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: vocenoctum@****.com <vocenoctum@****.com>

:> And probably to be followed shortly thereafter with posting to
:> Herkimer's
:> Lair, since Dvixen mirrors every errata to hit the net. =)


Where they have already appeared. Godspeed, Dvixen!
:Besides, now we have to see about a little quirk in teh BBB and M&M.
:
:Page 168 of BBB;
:"For exampe, an adept with Magic 4 cannot have more than 4 points worth
:of powers, none of which can have more than four levels"
:
:then "adepts may purchase additional PP's at a cost of 20 GK/PP"
:
:now, the erratta,for page 78 M&M;
:"An adept whose Magic is reduced in this way cannot simultaneously use
:more Power Points worth of powers than his effective Magic Rating."
:
:So, can an adept have more PP's than his magic rating? if not, how could
:he BUY any?

Yes, they can have more PP than magic rating, by buying them for 20
karma. They just can't start the game that way, which should be obvious,
but its what the first bit from p 168 reffers to.
Now, at NO time can the level of ANY power exceed thier magic rating.
M&M (with the erratta) adds the intersting caveat that the simutaniously
USED powers PP can not exceed MR. So, while bioware does not cost them PP
(since they don;t loose magic, they don't loose PP), it DOES reduce the max
levle of powers, and the number thay can use all at once.

Clear as mud, right? I'm sure somebody will put it in better terms, but
wtf...

Ok, lets start with an starting adept who has 6 magic and no bioware.
Take the powers Improved abilty / unarmed combat 6, and Improved reflexes 2.
Thats 6 PP. Then, say you get 20 karma and (instead of intiating- that
genrally raises magic AND grants a PP). Spend the PP on, say, killing hands
M. Now you've got a magic of 6, but 7 PP worth of powers.
OK, now this adept gets some bioware, 1 (or less) BI worth. Magic is
treated as being 5. No power point is lost, because no magic is actually
lost, but you can't use all 6 levels of "Improived abilty- it is limited to
5 levels. Additionally, you can only use 5 PP worth of powers at once.
Genrally, you will be using "increase reflexes". So thats 3. If you then
want to use the killing hands, you will be limited to using 2 levels of
'Improved abilty / Unarmed", because that all adds up to 5 PP. Alternately,
you could use just "increased reflexes" and 4 levels of improved ability, if
you didn't need the killing hands. Or, maybe if you didn't use it when
rolling intiaitve, you could use 5 levels (the max allowed) of improved
ability and use the killing hands (a total of 4.5 PP), all in one attack.

Or that's how I read it, anyhow. Seems that it really gives your adepts
an incentive to initiate instead of just buying PP, if they want to use ANY
bioware, but intitiation was already pretty much the best way to go...

Mongoose
Message no. 3
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 03:24:54 EST
In a message dated Fri, 3 Mar 2000 8:19:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, vocenoctum@****.com
writes:

> Besides, now we have to see about a little quirk in teh BBB and M&M.
>
> Page 168 of BBB;
> "For exampe, an adept with Magic 4 cannot have more than 4 points worth
> of powers, none of which can have more than four levels"
>
> then "adepts may purchase additional PP's at a cost of 20 GK/PP"
>
> now, the erratta,for page 78 M&M;
> "An adept whose Magic is reduced in this way cannot simultaneously use
> more Power Points worth of powers than his effective Magic Rating."
>
> So, can an adept have more PP's than his magic rating? if not, how could
> he BUY any?

Hey VN ... there are errata for the BBB that correct this IIRC. It's meant to say
something like "4 levels of powers", not 4 points worth.

-Keith
Message no. 4
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 06:18:29 -0800 (PST)
<Snippola(TM)>
> Besides, now we have to see about a little quirk in
teh BBB and M&M.
>
> Page 168 of BBB;
> "For exampe, an adept with Magic 4 cannot have more
than 4 points worth of powers, none of which can have
more than four levels"
>
> then "adepts may purchase additional PP's at a cost
of 20 GK/PP"
>
> now, the erratta,for page 78 M&M;
> "An adept whose Magic is reduced in this way cannot
simultaneously use more Power Points worth of powers
than his effective Magic Rating."
>
> So, can an adept have more PP's than his magic
rating? if not, how could he BUY any?
> Vocenoctum

Nothing funky here, man.

The apparent discrepancy in BBB has already been
answered. That original quote is talking about
characters who haven't used the 20 karma for a power
point thing. It's saying "although adepts start out
with a magic rating 6 and 6 power points, if their
magic rating is reduced, so is there number of power
points".

Now, MitS - look at the wording. "Simultaneously use".
That means that a magic rating 6 adept with 2 points
of bioware (virtual magic rating 4) can't USE more
than 4 points worth of power at once. So say the adept
had Increase Reflexes 2 (3 points) and Serious Killing
Hands (2 points) he couldn't use them both at once,
because they add up to 5 points in total. If he wanted
to whack someone with his Killing Hands he'd have to
wait until a new combat round and forego using his
reflex increase for that round.

Simple enough, really. Any adept can have more power
points than his virtual magic rating, he just can't
use more than his VMR at once, and any adept can have
more power points than his actual magic rating, as
long as he pays for them at 20 karma a pop. At least,
I think the latter is still valid. I'm under the
impression that the 20 karma for a PP trade was a
stopgap measure to allow adepts to improve before MitS
and the new initiation rules came out, but I've never
seen anything that says "if you have MitS, you can use
initiation, but not the 20 karma for a PP rule".

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 5
From: Jalong1@***.com Jalong1@***.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 17:13:47 EST
HHackerH wrote:

> > So, can an adept have more PP's than his magic rating? if not, how could
> > he BUY any?
>
> Hey VN ... there are errata for the BBB that correct this IIRC. It's
meant
> to say something like "4 levels of powers", not 4 points worth.

Actually I looked, but as of Errata version 7 there's not errata for this,
unless I'm just overlooking it.

Of course knowing my luck this has been already answered two or three time
already I just won't see it till the Digest gets back some time tomorrow...

Eh what the hell... <hits the send key> so lets make it four :)

Jalong1
Message no. 6
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 20:08:18 -0500
On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 06:18:29 -0800 (PST) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> > Page 168 of BBB;
> > "For exampe, an adept with Magic 4 cannot have more
> than 4 points worth of powers, none of which can have
> more than four levels"
> >
> > then "adepts may purchase additional PP's at a cost
> of 20 GK/PP"
> >
> > now, the erratta,for page 78 M&M;
> > "An adept whose Magic is reduced in this way cannot
> simultaneously use more Power Points worth of powers
> than his effective Magic Rating."
> >
> > So, can an adept have more PP's than his magic
> rating? if not, how could he BUY any?
> > Vocenoctum
>
> Nothing funky here, man.
>
> The apparent discrepancy in BBB has already been
> answered. That original quote is talking about
> characters who haven't used the 20 karma for a power
> point thing. It's saying "although adepts start out
> with a magic rating 6 and 6 power points, if their
> magic rating is reduced, so is there number of power
> points".

Sure, most likely (and, thats how I'd take it) but the book doesn't
mention anything about it being just at start. Like has been said, I
think it should be an erratta'd line (sure, thats a word..)<shrug>

>
> Now, MitS - look at the wording. "Simultaneously use".
> That means that a magic rating 6 adept with 2 points
> of bioware (virtual magic rating 4) can't USE more
> than 4 points worth of power at once. So say the adept
> had Increase Reflexes 2 (3 points) and Serious Killing
> Hands (2 points) he couldn't use them both at once,
> because they add up to 5 points in total. If he wanted
> to whack someone with his Killing Hands he'd have to
> wait until a new combat round and forego using his
> reflex increase for that round.

okay, so a guy has purchased 6 points of powers. He started with a MR of
6, but got a point of bio.

Before said bio, he could use ALL the powers, now he can only use half.
Sure, he muddled his powers, so he suffered. Acceptable losses, neh?

Now, lets say same guy got a point of cyber, not bio.
He can use all 11 points, plus has the option of getting a geas for one
point of powers to have his full 12?

Good thing Bio is so much more mage-friendly :-)

This is actually part of an arguemtn Twist mentioned (not an argument
with ME mind you) about how bio was/wasn't more mage friendly.
I just don't know that this new addition really makes sense. They're
(adepts) are already lossing for it. If its a limit, than it should also
apply to cybered types IMO.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 7
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 20:09:50 -0500
On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 03:24:54 EST HHackerH@***.com writes:
>> >
> > So, can an adept have more PP's than his magic rating? if not, how
> could
> > he BUY any?
>
> Hey VN ... there are errata for the BBB that correct this IIRC.
> It's meant to say something like "4 levels of powers", not 4 points
> worth.
>

not the latest one I saw on Herkimers, but I think it should be.

(oh, and I saw Jal's post already saying this, I just wanted to show my
support :-)


Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 8
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 02:27:32 +0000
> Or that's how I read it, anyhow. Seems that it really gives your adepts
> an incentive to initiate instead of just buying PP, if they want to use ANY
> bioware, but intitiation was already pretty much the best way to go...

Personally I always thought the incentive was that until higher levels of
initiation (if you have a group and do an ordeal) you are looking at a huge
difference in karma costs with initiation being cheeper and granted additonal
abilities.
Message no. 9
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:15:26 -0600
:> Now, MitS - look at the wording. "Simultaneously use".
:> That means that a magic rating 6 adept with 2 points
:> of bioware (virtual magic rating 4) can't USE more
:> than 4 points worth of power at once. So say the adept
:> had Increase Reflexes 2 (3 points) and Serious Killing
:> Hands (2 points) he couldn't use them both at once,
:> because they add up to 5 points in total. If he wanted
:> to whack someone with his Killing Hands he'd have to
:> wait until a new combat round and forego using his
:> reflex increase for that round.
:
:okay, so a guy has purchased 6 points of powers. He started with a MR of
:6, but got a point of bio.
:
:Before said bio, he could use ALL the powers, now he can only use half.
:Sure, he muddled his powers, so he suffered. Acceptable losses, neh?

He can only use half AT ONCE. This is admittedly an odd example, but if he
has 5 levels of "Freefall", "Killing Hands: D" and 5 levels on varios
things
like improved stealth and gun skills, that's never goanna come up. He gets
to keep all the powers and use them all like normal. Most adepts don't do
that sort of thing, but then, most adepts don't buy 6 PP at 20 karma each;
they inititiate.

:Now, lets say same guy got a point of cyber, not bio.
:He can use all 11 points, plus has the option of getting a geas for one
:point of powers to have his full 12?
:
:Good thing Bio is so much more mage-friendly :-)

Yeah, that's kinda funky, I agree. OTOH, if he intiated 6 times (more
likely than sprending 120 karma on plain old PP), his magic would be 12 (he
may have some geas, but he can do it). Then that 1 point of bioware would
limit him to using 11 PP worth of powers at once- hardly a problem. He
doesn't loose any PP because of bioware, or need a geas to keep any powers,
so actually the loss is not as bad as cyber would cause. I think most
players whose adepts use bioware will also be using initiation...

:I just don't know that this new addition really makes sense. They're
:(adepts) are already lossing for it. If its a limit, than it should also
:apply to cybered types IMO.

The alternative (just reducing max power level to the BI modified magic
rating) allows an adept with a magic rating of 6 who has "Improved reflexes
3" and "Improved ability: pistols 2" to get 3 BI worth of bioware with NO
affect on their abilities. This would be better?

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:23:54 -0500
On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:15:26 -0600 "Sebastian Wiers"
<m0ng005e@*********.com> writes:
> He can only use half AT ONCE. This is admittedly an odd example,
> but if he
> has 5 levels of "Freefall", "Killing Hands: D" and 5 levels on
> varios things
> like improved stealth and gun skills, that's never goanna come up.
> He gets
> to keep all the powers and use them all like normal. Most adepts
> don't do
> that sort of thing, but then, most adepts don't buy 6 PP at 20 karma
> each;
> they inititiate.

Well, if he has invested in increase reflexes-3, and killing hands, and
increased unarmed combat until he has become the perfet munchy combat
machine.
If he gets bio or 1 point, he loses the 1 PP of power (trims off a little
bit of his increased unarmed combat we'll say)
He also loses the ability to use half his powers at the same time as the
other half. In combat, suddenly he can't use his increased reflexes with
his other stuff.

He he had a point of cyber, besides being able to use a geas to avoid
losing that 1 PP of powers, he also would still be able to use all his
powers at once.


> :Good thing Bio is so much more mage-friendly :-)
>
> I think
> most
> players whose adepts use bioware will also be using initiation...

Definetly, and since you don't burn out with Bio, it has some advantages.
For a mage, you could initiate 9 times, and get 8.99 points of bio, and
still have the magic you started with.

Also, obviously, it seems wierd to use the rules from Man and Machine,
but not have Magic in teh Shadows, but that could happen as well.
Initiation might be just a rumor to some out there.
It still means that adepts are penalized more for using bio than for
cyber, given this rule.
NOTE: bio can often have the same results as cyber for a lower cost, but
not always.

> :I just don't know that this new addition really makes sense.
> They're
> :(adepts) are already lossing for it. If its a limit, than it should
> also
> :apply to cybered types IMO.
>
> The alternative (just reducing max power level to the BI
> modified magic
> rating) allows an adept with a magic rating of 6 who has "Improved
> reflexes
> 3" and "Improved ability: pistols 2" to get 3 BI worth of bioware
> with NO
> affect on their abilities. This would be better?

Thats how cyber operates, so yes, it would be better. The same adept
could get some cyber and not have a problem at all either, neh?


Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 11
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 14:43:03 -0600
:> The alternative (just reducing max power level to the BI
:> modified magic
:> rating) allows an adept with a magic rating of 6 who has "Improved
:> reflexes
:> 3" and "Improved ability: pistols 2" to get 3 BI worth of bioware
:> with NO
:> affect on their abilities. This would be better?
:
:Thats how cyber operates, so yes, it would be better. The same adept
:could get some cyber and not have a problem at all either, neh?

I meant a starting character, who had not spent any karma buying PP's.
With cyber, either the adept would loose magic (and powers, which they could
buy back) to the cyber, or they would have a geas on some of those powers.
I don't see that as "no problem". When an adept gets cyber, it should be a
problem- if it isn't, theres something wrong with THOSE rules!

With bioware, it is theoretically possible (even likely, for very small
amounts of bioware) that the BI impact on magic will have no effect on the
use of existing adept powers (even with the erratta effect). With
cyberware, that is NEVER the case (there's always a geas or power loss
involved).

However, I agree that it might work a little more smoothly (in cases
where PP exceede magic) if the number of PP they could use simultaniously
was just reduced by BI. Its never explicitely stated, but normally you can
use all your PP at once, regardless of magic; bioware could just reduce that
by your BI. So, if an adept (like the one you first mentioned in the
thread) had 6 magic, 12 PP, and 5 BI, they could use 7 PP simultaniously.
That's probably how I would handle such (unusual) cases.

Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:48:32 -0500
On Sun, 5 Mar 2000 14:43:03 -0600 "Sebastian Wiers"
<m0ng005e@*********.com> writes:
> :Thats how cyber operates, so yes, it would be better. The same
> adept
> :could get some cyber and not have a problem at all either, neh?
>
> I meant a starting character, who had not spent any karma buying
> PP's.
> With cyber, either the adept would loose magic (and powers, which
> they could
> buy back) to the cyber, or they would have a geas on some of those
> powers.
> I don't see that as "no problem". When an adept gets cyber, it
> should be a
> problem- if it isn't, theres something wrong with THOSE rules!
>
> With bioware, it is theoretically possible (even likely, for
> very small
> amounts of bioware) that the BI impact on magic will have no effect
> on the
> use of existing adept powers (even with the erratta effect). With
> cyberware, that is NEVER the case (there's always a geas or power
> loss
> involved).


Well, the bioware implant still costs the power point of the magic "lost"
so either way the adept loses access to a point of powers.
With cyber though, he can get a geas. With Bio, its just gone until he
removes the bio.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 13
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:12:23 -0800 (PST)
> > Nothing funky here, man.
> >
> > The apparent discrepancy in BBB has already been
answered. That original quote is talking about
characters who haven't used the 20 karma for a power
point thing. It's saying "although adepts start out
with a magic rating 6 and 6 power points, if their
magic rating is reduced, so is there number of power
points".
>
> Sure, most likely (and, thats how I'd take it) but
the book doesn't mention anything about it being just
at start. Like has been said, I think it should be an
erratta'd line (sure, thats a word..)<shrug>

I wouldn't argue with you about that.

> > Now, MitS - look at the wording. "Simultaneously
use". That means that a magic rating 6 adept with 2
points of bioware (virtual magic rating 4) can't USE
more than 4 points worth of power at once. So say the
adept had Increase Reflexes 2 (3 points) and Serious
Killing Hands (2 points) he couldn't use them both at
once, because they add up to 5 points in total. If he
wanted to whack someone with his Killing Hands he'd
have to wait until a new combat round and forego using
his reflex increase for that round.
>
> okay, so a guy has purchased 6 points of powers. He
started with a MR of 6, but got a point of bio.
>
> Before said bio, he could use ALL the powers, now he
can only use half. Sure, he muddled his powers, so he
suffered. Acceptable losses, neh?
>
> Now, lets say same guy got a point of cyber, not
bio. He can use all 11 points, plus has the option of
getting a geas for one point of powers to have his
full 12?
>
> Good thing Bio is so much more mage-friendly :-)
>
> This is actually part of an arguemtn Twist mentioned
(not an argument with ME mind you) about how bio
was/wasn't more mage friendly. I just don't know that
this new addition really makes sense. They're (adepts)
are already lossing for it. If its a limit, than it
should also apply to cybered types IMO.
>
> Vocenoctum

Well, I see your point. That's why instead of getting
6 power points (at 20 karma a pop), I'd join an
initiatory group and start initiating and getting my
magic rating up - AND learn some metamagic abilities,
AND (at lower levels) pay less karma!

Like I said, the 20 point method is really just a
stopgap. If you have MitS, you should USE it - I'd
only recommend using the 20 point method once you've
initiated so high that it isn't economical to initiate
any more.

Btw, Voce, where is Twist? I haven't heard from him
about anything for AGES (not on the list, not for his
game, not for my games).

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 14
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:47:12 -0500
On Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:12:23 -0800 (PST) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> Well, I see your point. That's why instead of getting
> 6 power points (at 20 karma a pop), I'd join an
> initiatory group and start initiating and getting my
> magic rating up - AND learn some metamagic abilities,
> AND (at lower levels) pay less karma!
>
> Like I said, the 20 point method is really just a
> stopgap. If you have MitS, you should USE it - I'd
> only recommend using the 20 point method once you've
> initiated so high that it isn't economical to initiate
> any more.

sure, I'd initiate also, but not everyone actually has MitS.
It just doesn't seem worth the time to add the little thing that they can
only use so many points simultaneously :-)

>
> Btw, Voce, where is Twist? I haven't heard from him
> about anything for AGES (not on the list, not for his
> game, not for my games).
>

He's addicted to EverCrack...er...Everquest.
He doesn't do much of anything anymore, including show up to GM our
Friday night game <sigh>
I think we need an intervention.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:48:48 -0800 (PST)
> sure, I'd initiate also, but not everyone actually
has MitS. It just doesn't seem worth the time to add
the little thing that they can only use so many points
simultaneously :-)

As a GM, I think it is. If someone doesn't have MitS,
then they need to fiddle the biotech rules - as you
said, though, I can't see an adept play getting M&M,
but not MitS.

<quote>
Inconceivable!
</quote>

I'd suggest dropping the "simultaneous use" part if
they don't have MitS. I think you're talking
pipedreams, though. :)

> He's addicted to EverCrack...er...Everquest. He
doesn't do much of anything anymore, including show up
to GM our Friday night game <sigh> I think we need an
intervention.

Oh, lordy - addictive personality, or is the game
seriously that good?

In any event, an intervention sounds good. I was
finally gonna be a play-tester, dammit! ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 16
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 07:15:31 EST
In a message dated 3/5/00 6:49:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
vocenoctum@****.com writes:

>
> He's addicted to EverCrack...er...Everquest.
> He doesn't do much of anything anymore, including show up to GM our
> Friday night game <sigh>
> I think we need an intervention.

Not likely, his personality never really supported purer forms of willpower,
and EQ (though I have long since liked the "Evercrack" nickname) is not going
to release him easily.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 17
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:04:53 -0600
:> With bioware, it is theoretically possible (even likely, for
:> very small
:> amounts of bioware) that the BI impact on magic will have no effect
:> on the
:> use of existing adept powers (even with the erratta effect). With
:> cyberware, that is NEVER the case (there's always a geas or power
:> loss
:> involved).
:
:
:Well, the bioware implant still costs the power point of the magic "lost"
:so either way the adept loses access to a point of powers.

Does bioware do that? AFAIK, it does not actually cost any PP when you
get bioware, because no magic point is actually lost. That seems the main
point of having the errata rule, in fact!

Perhaps we have a basic difference in how we are reading the rules on
bioware and magic. AFAIK, Bioware reduces the magic rating as used for
various tests and comparisons, but no magic is lost. Therefore, no power
points are lost when you get bioware. Sometimes you can't use all of those
PP, but sometimes you can use them exactly as before, with no noticeable
effect!

Mongoose
Message no. 18
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:20:30 -0500
On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:04:53 -0600 "Sebastian Wiers"
<m0ng005e@*********.com> writes:
> :Well, the bioware implant still costs the power point of the magic
> "lost"
> :so either way the adept loses access to a point of powers.
>
> Does bioware do that? AFAIK, it does not actually cost any PP
> when you
> get bioware, because no magic point is actually lost. That seems
> the main
> point of having the errata rule, in fact!
>

What Mike M said was that the power point associated with that magic
point is also "suppressed" along with teh magic. So, a point is lost
while the bio is implanted.
Unless this has changed recently.
so, if you have 6 magic, and the attached 6 pp, and get a point of bio,
you now have 5 magic and 5 pp "virtually".


Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 19
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 04:08:12 EST
In a message dated 3/6/00 8:26:46 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
vocenoctum@****.com writes:

>
> What Mike M said was that the power point associated with that magic
> point is also "suppressed" along with teh magic. So, a point is lost
> while the bio is implanted.
> Unless this has changed recently.
> so, if you have 6 magic, and the attached 6 pp, and get a point of bio,
> you now have 5 magic and 5 pp "virtually".
>
VN: If you wouldn't mind, do you have this on log file as well? The reason
I'm asking, is I have my responses from Mike as well, and want to make sure
one of us isn't misinterpreting things, vs. Mike getting wires/comms crossed.

Thanks.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 20
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 03:12:26 -0800
At vocenoctum@****.com, 08:15 PM 03/03/00 wrote:

>Just a little note and endorsment. I don't have any of the erratta's on
>my site, since I use the ones on Herkimers :-)

You should really really add it to your links page, ya know. ;)

>Besides, now we have to see about a little quirk in teh BBB and M&M.
>
>Page 168 of BBB;
>"For exampe, an adept with Magic 4 cannot have more than 4 points worth
>of powers, none of which can have more than four levels"
>
>then "adepts may purchase additional PP's at a cost of 20 GK/PP"
>
>now, the erratta,for page 78 M&M;
>"An adept whose Magic is reduced in this way cannot simultaneously use
>more Power Points worth of powers than his effective Magic Rating."
>
>So, can an adept have more PP's than his magic rating? if not, how could
>he BUY any?
>
>Vocenoctum
><http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;
>
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Message no. 21
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:13:20 -0500
On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 03:12:26 -0800 Dvixen <dvixen@****.com> writes:
> At vocenoctum@****.com, 08:15 PM 03/03/00 wrote:
>
> >Just a little note and endorsment. I don't have any of the
> erratta's on
> >my site, since I use the ones on Herkimers :-)
>
> You should really really add it to your links page, ya know. ;)

Yeah, someday :-)
funny part, I don't have a link on my page, I don't have it in the
browser, so I actually follow the link to Masn's page, then use HIS link
to the Resonance.


<snip whole other subject>
<refrains from asking Dvixen to trim excess posting just to have some
fun>
:-)



Vocenoctum
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Message no. 22
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:11:18 -0500
On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 04:08:12 EST HHackerH@***.com writes:
> In a message dated 3/6/00 8:26:46 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> vocenoctum@****.com writes:
>
> >
> > What Mike M said was that the power point associated with that
> magic
> > point is also "suppressed" along with teh magic. So, a point is
> lost
> > while the bio is implanted.
> > Unless this has changed recently.
> > so, if you have 6 magic, and the attached 6 pp, and get a point
> of bio,
> > you now have 5 magic and 5 pp "virtually".
> >
> VN: If you wouldn't mind, do you have this on log file as well? The
> reason
> I'm asking, is I have my responses from Mike as well, and want to
> make sure
> one of us isn't misinterpreting things, vs. Mike getting wires/comms
> crossed.
>
> Thanks.

It was actually in an email I think, Through another person.
I'll ask him if he's at this chat, along with the other bio question that
started it.
Just off hand though, what info did he give you?


Vocenoctum
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Message no. 23
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: M&M erratta (Power Points)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 01:26:18 EST
In a message dated Tue, 7 Mar 2000 8:16:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, vocenoctum@****.com
writes:

> It was actually in an email I think, Through another person.
> I'll ask him if he's at this chat, along with the other bio question that
> started it.
> Just off hand though, what info did he give you?

That the "virtual magic attribute" only effected the levels of abilities that
could be used, and did NOT detract from the number of power points in any way. It also
didn't effect the number of abilities being used, just that no ability could have a cost
higher than the VMA.

-Keith

Further Reading

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

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