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Message no. 1
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 07:50:13 -0500
At 09:26 AM 11/25/99 +0200, you wrote:
>For those of us in the Southern hemisphere who will hopefully see M&M
>after Christmas, could someone please give us the basics on biowares
>effects on the Awakened? Pretty please :)
> - -
>Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Not sure offhand what country .za is (Zaire? <shrug>) But as a note,
rumor has it the books have reached Australian Customs, so maybe this is
good news?

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 2
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 07:51:45 -0500
At 08:35 AM 11/26/99 -0400, you wrote:
>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Jamz."
>
>] 1. You can have a body index <= Essence.
>
> Ouch...does that mean the street samurai with 0.3 essence can only
>have a maximum of 0.3 bio-index?

Actually, it's Essance +3. So your sammy mentioned above could still get 3
points of Bio... Not a whole lot, but... :]

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 3
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 08:09:01 -0500
At 03:02 PM 11/26/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Bull wrote:
> >
> >
> > Not sure offhand what country .za is (Zaire? <shrug>) But as a note,
> > rumor has it the books have reached Australian Customs, so maybe this is
> > good news?
> >
>
>It's South Africa, actually :-) God only know why they chose to spell
>it with a Z, though... Probably french, or something
>
>But I'm also not hopeful - I ordered a GM screen, and SRComp, and got
>sent the second ed versions of both... <exasperated sigh>
>
>and my corp download has been on backorder for somethng like 4 or 5
>months now
>

Yuck! Well, good luck :]

Bull

>uck :(

--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 4
From: Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 09:26:21 +0200
For those of us in the Southern hemisphere who will hopefully see M&M
after Christmas, could someone please give us the basics on biowares
effects on the Awakened? Pretty please :)
- -
Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Give me reasons why the sun has to shine
why they murdered the noisy mime
tell me the answers to the puzzles of Poe
and sing me to sleep on the rivers of woe
Message no. 5
From: Jamz JamzTheMan@****.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 02:28:15 -0600
> For those of us in the Southern hemisphere who will hopefully see M&M
> after Christmas, could someone please give us the basics on biowares
> effects on the Awakened? Pretty please :)
> - -
> Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>
>

1. You can have a body index <= Essence.
2. Bioware does not decrease Essence
3. Each point of Bioware "Virtually" reduces Magic Rating by 1 (adepts,
mages, all type)

By virtual, you still have say 6 points of magic (for burn out reasons and
such) but drain, powers, etc are all based on the virtual rating, much like
geasa.

Of course there's complete rules on overstressing and some bioware is
incompatible with other bioware...

Jamz
Message no. 6
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:35:29 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Jamz."

] 1. You can have a body index <= Essence.

Ouch...does that mean the street samurai with 0.3 essence can only
have a maximum of 0.3 bio-index?

-Boondocker
Message no. 7
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:02:06 +0200
Bull wrote:
>
>
> Not sure offhand what country .za is (Zaire? <shrug>) But as a note,
> rumor has it the books have reached Australian Customs, so maybe this is
> good news?
>

It's South Africa, actually :-) God only know why they chose to spell
it with a Z, though... Probably french, or something

But I'm also not hopeful - I ordered a GM screen, and SRComp, and got
sent the second ed versions of both... <exasperated sigh>

and my corp download has been on backorder for somethng like 4 or 5
months now

--
Allen Versfeld (once again demonstrating his incredible grasp of trivia)
moe@*******.com

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 8
From: Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:49:15 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Bull <bull@***********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 26 November 1999 02:58
Subject: Re: M&M - The big magic/bioware question


>At 09:26 AM 11/25/99 +0200, you wrote:
>>For those of us in the Southern hemisphere who will hopefully see
M&M
>>after Christmas, could someone please give us the basics on biowares
>>effects on the Awakened? Pretty please :)
>> - -
>>Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>
>
>Not sure offhand what country .za is (Zaire? <shrug>) But as a
note,
>rumor has it the books have reached Australian Customs, so maybe this
is
>good news?
>
>Bull

Worldly wise hmmm??? Actually it's South Africa and my friendly store
has a shipment of prduct coming in next week Friday. Oh Joy!

/me wonders if they have ISPs in Zaire...

- -
Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Give me reasons why the sun has to shine
why they murdered the noisy mime
tell me the answers to the puzzles of Poe
and sing me to sleep on the rivers of woe
Message no. 9
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:30:53 -0600
:> 1. You can have a body index <= Essence.

Not quite true.

: Ouch...does that mean the street samurai with 0.3 essence can only
:have a maximum of 0.3 bio-index?

No. He can get up to nine, like everybody else (more than 9 BI will
kill you). There are penalties for each point (or few points) of BI you
have. There's just some nastier penalties for your BI going past your
essence index. No sane doctor is going to put more than a few BI worth of
bioware into somebody with a .3 essence- not without payment up front, at
least.

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:47:14 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Bull."
] >] 1. You can have a body index <= Essence.
] >
] > Ouch...does that mean the street samurai with 0.3 essence can only
] >have a maximum of 0.3 bio-index?
]
] Actually, it's Essance +3. So your sammy mentioned above could still get 3
] points of Bio... Not a whole lot, but... :]

And what about those with no cyber? Is 9 points of bio-index
possible?

-Boondocker
Message no. 11
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:56:43 -0600
> ] Actually, it's Essance +3. So your sammy mentioned above
> ] could still get 3 points of Bio... Not a whole lot, but... :]
>
> And what about those with no cyber? Is 9 points of bio-index
> possible?

Yes; it's not based off Body any longer (so you troll players can't pack in
11 points of bioware anymore). The upper limit is 9 points, less any
Essence lost to cyber. (The book says it much better than I do, but I'm
half unconscious at the moments, so....)

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 12
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:33:09 -0800
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:56:43 -0600 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Yes; it's not based off Body any longer (so you troll players can't
pack in
> 11 points of bioware anymore). The upper limit is 9 points, less any
> Essence lost to cyber. (The book says it much better than I do, but
I'm
> half unconscious at the moments, so....)

Does bioware have an adverse effect on critters above and beyond the
effects it has on metahumans?

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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Message no. 13
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:06:21 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Patrick Goodman."
] > ] Actually, it's Essance +3. So your sammy mentioned above
] > ] could still get 3 points of Bio... Not a whole lot, but... :]
] >
] > And what about those with no cyber? Is 9 points of bio-index
] > possible?
]
] Yes; it's not based off Body any longer (so you troll players can't pack in
] 11 points of bioware anymore). The upper limit is 9 points, less any
] Essence lost to cyber. (The book says it much better than I do, but I'm
] half unconscious at the moments, so....)

Boy, that really changes the way street samurai are built...I like
it, in a
Gonna-Have-To-Scrap-Or-Rebuild-Every-Old-Character-I've-Ever-Made kinda way.

Here's another question...if my mage has 5.6 Essence, and 0.4
Bio-Index, has he lost one or two points of Magic? Is this covered in
M&M, or is it a "GM call" question?

-Boondocker
Message no. 14
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:48:05 -0600 (CST)
Today, Scott W spoke on RE: M&M - The big magic/bioware question:

> Here's another question...if my mage has 5.6 Essence, and 0.4
> Bio-Index, has he lost one or two points of Magic? Is this covered in
> M&M, or is it a "GM call" question?

Okay, I don't have M&M, but from what I've seen of the rules on the list,
I'd say he has a 5 Magic rating with a Virtual Magic rating of 4.

This means that um, well, I don't know what that means. Could someone
elaborate on when you use the full magic rating and when you use the
virtual magic rating?

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:13:40 EST
In a message dated 11/25/1999 6:12:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iti03678@****.co.za writes:

> For those of us in the Southern hemisphere who will hopefully see M&M
> after Christmas, could someone please give us the basics on biowares
> effects on the Awakened? Pretty please :)

IF you want to look at things from a certain POV, consider that the magic
attribute is effectively altered, but the essence attribute is not. I'm not
going to go into specifics over an open forum ...

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:34:16 EST
In a message dated 11/26/1999 7:51:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
bull@***********.com writes:

> >Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>
>
> Not sure offhand what country .za is (Zaire? <shrug>) But as a note,
> rumor has it the books have reached Australian Customs, so maybe this is
> good news?

Bruce, correct me if I'm wrong, but Bull here wins the prize for guessing
doesn't he /

;-)

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 17
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:17:39 -0600
> Does bioware have an adverse effect on critters above and beyond the
> effects it has on metahumans?

I seem to recall something about critters handling bio better than cyber,
but that corps generally didn't research it. Don't have the book handy at
the moment (James had to take it back to work).

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 18
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:27:57 -0600
> ] Yes; it's not based off Body any longer (so you troll players can't
> ] pack in 11 points of bioware anymore). The upper limit is 9 points,
> ] less any Essence lost to cyber.
>
> Boy, that really changes the way street samurai are built...I like
> it, in a Gonna-Have-To-Scrap-Or-Rebuild-Every-Old-Character-I've-Ever-
> Made kinda way.

Most of mine didn't have much bio (Dancer had a Body of 4 when he got his
bio, so he never had room for much anyway), so it's not a biggie. I just
like that it's the same number for everyone now.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 19
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:54:26 -0800
On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:27:57 -0600 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
> I just like that it's the same number for everyone now.

No kidding. Okay, Troll-boy over there can handle more stuff. However,
the stuff he implants is going to take up more room and strain the body
more than human-sized stuff. I'm glad FASA changed this. I was going to
start a house rule where body index was compared against unaugmented body
without the racial adjustment. This (the M&M rule) is much better.

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Message no. 20
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:44:06 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Patrick Goodman."
] > Boy, that really changes the way street samurai are built...I like
] > it, in a Gonna-Have-To-Scrap-Or-Rebuild-Every-Old-Character-I've-Ever-
] > Made kinda way.
]
] Most of mine didn't have much bio (Dancer had a Body of 4 when he got his
] bio, so he never had room for much anyway), so it's not a biggie. I just
] like that it's the same number for everyone now.

There's a couple of mine that relied on bioware...funny thing is, one
of them only had 2 points of Essence loss, which means he can take even
_more_ bio now...excellent.
And yeah, basing it off Body was fine, but basing it off essence is
better, in game balance terms as well as realism.

-Boondocker
Message no. 21
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:49:09 -0500 (EST)
bull@***********.com (Bull) writes:
> At 08:35 AM 11/26/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Jamz."
> >
> >] 1. You can have a body index <= Essence.
> >
> > Ouch...does that mean the street samurai with 0.3 essence can only
> >have a maximum of 0.3 bio-index?
>
> Actually, it's Essance +3. So your sammy mentioned above could still get 3
> points of Bio... Not a whole lot, but... :]

Yep. Don't forget, it's not a hard limit like Essence
(barring Cybermancy). Having more than Essence+3 (but less than 9)
points of Bioware is about as bad as having more than Body bioware
used to be.

Does anyone else get the impression that the "Bioware is less
harmful to magic than Cyberware" line just isn't true anymore?

Cyberware: Lose Essence, Lose Magic, but can function as if you had
the lost magic if you choose and fulfill some Geasa

Bioware: Don't lose Essence, Lose Magic for all intents and purposes*,
but you still have it when you test for Magic loss.

*It appears that you still register as having your old Magic rating
for Assensing?

It seems like you're better off actually losing a point of Magic than
installing a point of Bioware, as far as your Magic is concerned.

Mark
Message no. 22
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 01:00:17 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Mark A Shieh."
] Does anyone else get the impression that the "Bioware is less
] harmful to magic than Cyberware" line just isn't true anymore?
]
] Cyberware: Lose Essence, Lose Magic, but can function as if you had
] the lost magic if you choose and fulfill some Geasa
]
] Bioware: Don't lose Essence, Lose Magic for all intents and purposes*,
] but you still have it when you test for Magic loss.

Wait, you can't take a geasa for the bioware you got? No option at
all?

-Boondocker
Message no. 23
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 01:02:16 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Scott W."
] Wait, you can't take a geasa for the bioware you got? No option at
] all?

Yes yes, one geas, many geasa. I know, I know.

-Boondocker
Message no. 24
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:51:51 -0500 (EST)
Scott W <iscottw@*****.nb.ca> writes:
> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Mark A Shieh."
> ] Does anyone else get the impression that the "Bioware is less
> ] harmful to magic than Cyberware" line just isn't true anymore?
> ]
> ] Cyberware: Lose Essence, Lose Magic, but can function as if you had
> ] the lost magic if you choose and fulfill some Geasa
> ]
> ] Bioware: Don't lose Essence, Lose Magic for all intents and purposes*,
> ] but you still have it when you test for Magic loss.
>
> Wait, you can't take a geas for the bioware you got? No option at
> all?

AFAIK (I haven't seen M&M since Wed), no. You never actually
lost the magic, I believe the rationalization goes... I believe the
Adept's option of voluntary Geas is still open, but that's not the
same thing.
Bioware also impairs your ability to heal. These drawbacks
are making me more and more happy to design my covert op (nothing
visible except datajack, headware mem, maybe cybereyes on scanners).
The Smartgun without palm pad option also makes me happy, though I
still want to know if it's a -1 or -2 TN to shoot when going through a
Datajack and Image Link. :) Unfortunately, I think the best I'm going
to get is an IMHO or IMC (In My Campaign) answer, which doesn't quite
work unless you want to come to Pittsburgh and GM for me.

Mark
Message no. 25
From: Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:34:09 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: dghost@****.com <dghost@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 28 November 1999 08:47
Subject: Re: M&M - The big magic/bioware question


>On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:27:57 -0600 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
>writes:
><SNIP>
>> I just like that it's the same number for everyone now.
>
>No kidding. Okay, Troll-boy over there can handle more stuff.
However,
>the stuff he implants is going to take up more room and strain the
body
>more than human-sized stuff. I'm glad FASA changed this. I was going
to
>start a house rule where body index was compared against unaugmented
body
>without the racial adjustment. This (the M&M rule) is much better.
>
>--
>D. Ghost

Dont have M&M yet, but do trolls and orks have to pay more for the
larger bioware implants they will need in certain cases?

- -
Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Give me reasons why the sun has to shine
why they murdered the noisy mime
tell me the answers to the puzzles of Poe
and sing me to sleep on the rivers of woe
Message no. 26
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:19:58 -0600
Scott W wrote:
>
> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Scott W."
> ] Wait, you can't take a geasa for the bioware you got? No option at
> ] all?
>
> Yes yes, one geas, many geasa. I know, I know.
>
> -Boondocker

p. 78:
"Geasa cannot be used to counteract a Magic Rating modified by bioware,
as no Magic points are actually lost."

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 27
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:21:03 -0600
Bruce wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dghost@****.com <dghost@****.com>
> To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
> Date: 28 November 1999 08:47
> Subject: Re: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
>
> >On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:27:57 -0600 "Patrick Goodman"
<remo@***.net>
> >writes:
> ><SNIP>
> >> I just like that it's the same number for everyone now.
> >
> >No kidding. Okay, Troll-boy over there can handle more stuff.
> However,
> >the stuff he implants is going to take up more room and strain the
> body
> >more than human-sized stuff. I'm glad FASA changed this. I was going
> to
> >start a house rule where body index was compared against unaugmented
> body
> >without the racial adjustment. This (the M&M rule) is much better.
> >
> >--
> >D. Ghost
>
> Dont have M&M yet, but do trolls and orks have to pay more for the
> larger bioware implants they will need in certain cases?

I didn't see anything mentioning this. Considering almost nothing else
is modified for larger people (weapons, *cyberware*, etc...) there
shouldn't be any reason to make bioware more expensive for orks and
trolls.


--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 28
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:32:43 -0600
Da Twink Daddy wrote:
>
> Today, Scott W spoke on RE: M&M - The big magic/bioware question:
>
> > Here's another question...if my mage has 5.6 Essence, and 0.4
> > Bio-Index, has he lost one or two points of Magic? Is this covered in
> > M&M, or is it a "GM call" question?
>
> Okay, I don't have M&M, but from what I've seen of the rules on the list,
> I'd say he has a 5 Magic rating with a Virtual Magic rating of 4.
>
> This means that um, well, I don't know what that means. Could someone
> elaborate on when you use the full magic rating and when you use the
> virtual magic rating?

This is a topic that is *extremely* vague in M&M. The book states:
"This modified Magic Rating is used in place of the base Magic Rating.
It counts for calculating Drain (including determining whether the Drain
does Physical damage), determing the maximum levels allowed for an adept
power (p. 168, SR3) and any other time Magic Rating is a factor, such as
warding or astral combat."

However, the book says that bioware is not as harsh on one's system as
cyberware. How is the above any better? At least magic lost to cyber can
be offset with geasa. The problem is that they seem to be hinting that
the full Magic rating still gets used sometimes, but they don't spell it
out.

1. Does a physical adept loose powers for virtual Magic?

2. Is the reduced Magic Rating (as opposed to the virtual rating) used
for calculating Spell Pool?

I can't think of other options, but I don't see how the virtual magic
rating is any better than magic lost to cyber. If the answer to both
above questions is NO, then virtual magic has all the disadvantages of
cyber-lost magic, plus geasa can't be taken. Doesn't sound like "...this
is not as drastic as the effect cyberware has on Awakened characters..."
to quote M&M.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 29
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:58:41 EST
In a message dated 11/29/1999 5:57:34 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
iti03678@****.co.za writes:

>
> Dont have M&M yet, but do trolls and orks have to pay more for the
> larger bioware implants they will need in certain cases?

No


-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 30
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:03:16 EST
In a message dated 11/29/1999 10:36:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
lericson@****.edu writes:

> Does a physical adept loose powers for virtual Magic?
>
> 2. Is the reduced Magic Rating (as opposed to the virtual rating) used
> for calculating Spell Pool?

I just LOVE both of these examples, as they are not detailed in any of the
material I have ever had either. My *PERSONAL* opinion is that the Adept
does *NOT* loose any "power points", only has a lower "cap" of how
many
"levels" of an ability that can be bought.

Now the second one is a bit trickier as well, as "Magic Rating" is now part
of the integral information used to define the Spell Pool. Personally, I'm
still not sure I'm gonna use this.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 31
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:59:15 -0500
At 09:32 AM 11/29/99 -0600, you wrote:
>This is a topic that is *extremely* vague in M&M. The book states:
>"This modified Magic Rating is used in place of the base Magic Rating.
>It counts for calculating Drain (including determining whether the Drain
>does Physical damage), determing the maximum levels allowed for an adept
>power (p. 168, SR3) and any other time Magic Rating is a factor, such as
>warding or astral combat."
>
>However, the book says that bioware is not as harsh on one's system as
>cyberware. How is the above any better? At least magic lost to cyber can
>be offset with geasa. The problem is that they seem to be hinting that
>the full Magic rating still gets used sometimes, but they don't spell it
>out.
>
>1. Does a physical adept loose powers for virtual Magic?

I would say not. His Magic Rating has not changed, so the number of Power
POints he gets to spend on powers should not change. However, for all of
those powers that have a limit of Magic Rating for how many levels can be
purchased, use the virtual rating.

>2. Is the reduced Magic Rating (as opposed to the virtual rating) used
>for calculating Spell Pool?

The virtual rating (which is the reduced rating) should be used to
calculate the spell pool. The mage has more trouble channeling more mana,
so doesn't have as much of a pool to control that mana.

I thought that the resistor example that they gave was actually a very good
one. Think of the mage as a length of wire. It transmits 6 units of X. If
the mage gets cyberware, he's reducing that wire to length 4, say, and
can't transmit as much. If he gets bioware, he's putting a resistor in the
circuit. The wire can still carry 6 units of X, but the bioware is slowing
it down.

>I can't think of other options, but I don't see how the virtual magic
>rating is any better than magic lost to cyber. If the answer to both
>above questions is NO, then virtual magic has all the disadvantages of
>cyber-lost magic, plus geasa can't be taken. Doesn't sound like "...this
>is not as drastic as the effect cyberware has on Awakened characters..."
>to quote M&M.

One of the advantages that it has over cyber-lost magic is that its not
lost. Although you can't access it, you're not losing it. So if you got 6
points of cyberware, you've just lost your magic rating and become a
mundane. If you get 6 points of bio, you're magic pool sucks, but you're
not considered a mundane. You can still cast spells, summon spirits, etc...

The reason that the book has that phrase about less drastic deals with the
cost. I just finished my first read through last night, so I haven't
compared costs yet. But, in Shadowtech if compared the prices you generally
got the same benefits for less absolute cost. For example, Muscle
Replacement (cyber) cost 1 essence each level. Muscle Aug (bio) cost .8
Body Index for each level. Like I said, I have to go back and check the
costs, but it'll probably be something like that.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 32
From: Quippish@***.com Quippish@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:01:48 EST
In a message dated 11/29/1999 10:25:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lericson@****.edu writes:
> Bruce wrote:
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dghost@****.com <dghost@****.com>
> > To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
> > Date: 28 November 1999 08:47
> > Subject: Re: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
> >
> > >On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:27:57 -0600 "Patrick Goodman"
<remo@***.net>
> > >writes:
> > ><SNIP>
> > >> I just like that it's the same number for everyone now.
> > >
> > >No kidding. Okay, Troll-boy over there can handle more stuff.
> > However,
> > >the stuff he implants is going to take up more room and strain the
> > body
> > >more than human-sized stuff. I'm glad FASA changed this. I was going
> > to
> > >start a house rule where body index was compared against unaugmented
> > body
> > >without the racial adjustment. This (the M&M rule) is much better.
> > >
> > >--
> > >D. Ghost
> >
> > Dont have M&M yet, but do trolls and orks have to pay more for the
> > larger bioware implants they will need in certain cases?
>
> I didn't see anything mentioning this. Considering almost nothing else
> is modified for larger people (weapons, *cyberware*, etc...) there
> shouldn't be any reason to make bioware more expensive for orks and
> trolls.

*delurk*

Sure? SR3 page 272 "Racial Modifications" says differently. Of course
'gear' isn't
really defined to well. This is one of those things I've wondered about for
a long time.
Any opinions out there?
Message no. 33
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:36:10 -0600
Sommers wrote:
>
> At 09:32 AM 11/29/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >This is a topic that is *extremely* vague in M&M. The book states:
> >"This modified Magic Rating is used in place of the base Magic Rating.
> >It counts for calculating Drain (including determining whether the Drain
> >does Physical damage), determing the maximum levels allowed for an adept
> >power (p. 168, SR3) and any other time Magic Rating is a factor, such as
> >warding or astral combat."
> >
> >However, the book says that bioware is not as harsh on one's system as
> >cyberware. How is the above any better? At least magic lost to cyber can
> >be offset with geasa. The problem is that they seem to be hinting that
> >the full Magic rating still gets used sometimes, but they don't spell it
> >out.
> >
> >1. Does a physical adept loose powers for virtual Magic?
>
> I would say not. His Magic Rating has not changed, so the number of Power
> POints he gets to spend on powers should not change. However, for all of
> those powers that have a limit of Magic Rating for how many levels can be
> purchased, use the virtual rating.

No this makes a phys ad very dangerous. There are a lot of adept powers
that are not taken at many levels (Increased Reflexes, Magic Resistance,
Everthing without a level (senses, missile mastery, etc...). Here's
another wrench into the system...

What about magician adepts and the Magical Power ability?

It is considered a physical adept power. Assuming it is not taken at a
level higher than the reduced magic rating, a magician adept can have
bioware with no penalty since all the pools and everything for magician
related stuff is based of the Magical Power levels. Am I reading this
right?

> >2. Is the reduced Magic Rating (as opposed to the virtual rating) used
> >for calculating Spell Pool?
>
> The virtual rating (which is the reduced rating) should be used to
> calculate the spell pool. The mage has more trouble channeling more mana,
> so doesn't have as much of a pool to control that mana.

I think you are confusing the virtual magic rating with the reduced one.
It describes a "virtual reduction" from bioware. I would argue that
means a person with a 4(6) as a result of bioware has a real magic
rating of 4 and a virtual magic rating of 6. Am I mixing this up?

Anyways, if the spell pool uses the lowered magic rating, than what
advantage does bioware give over cyber other than the advantage/cost
mentioned below. Most awakened runners I've known who have cyber or
bioware only have a couple points because it lowers their magic rating
and reduces their effectiveness (mostly in drain and spell pool). As it
stands now, bioware still effectively lowers the magic rating making
runners just as ineffectual in magicas someone with cyber.

> I thought that the resistor example that they gave was actually a very good
> one. Think of the mage as a length of wire. It transmits 6 units of X. If
> the mage gets cyberware, he's reducing that wire to length 4, say, and
> can't transmit as much. If he gets bioware, he's putting a resistor in the
> circuit. The wire can still carry 6 units of X, but the bioware is slowing
> it down.

I agree that the bioware affects on magic is very good fluff (i.e.
background material). However, my argument is that the game mechanics
don't hold up to their qualitative claims. BTW, your description of the
analogy is flawed in the sense that a wire has negligible resistance to
electricity. Basicly, if the human body acts like ten small resistors in
series, each piece of bioware replaces one of those resistors with a
larger valued one. Thus the total current passed for a given voltage is
less.

> One of the advantages that it has over cyber-lost magic is that its not
> lost. Although you can't access it, you're not losing it. So if you got 6
> points of cyberware, you've just lost your magic rating and become a
> mundane. If you get 6 points of bio, you're magic pool sucks, but you're
> not considered a mundane. You can still cast spells, summon spirits, etc...

I think this is a very specialized case. Almost 95% of awakened runners
with bioware are not going to have so much that they burn out. This kind
of scenario usually has to be orchestrated and initiated by the player
from the beginning (i.e. wants to play a burned out mage). I think this
is a minor benefit.

> The reason that the book has that phrase about less drastic deals with the
> cost. I just finished my first read through last night, so I haven't
> compared costs yet. But, in Shadowtech if compared the prices you generally
> got the same benefits for less absolute cost. For example, Muscle
> Replacement (cyber) cost 1 essence each level. Muscle Aug (bio) cost .8
> Body Index for each level. Like I said, I have to go back and check the
> costs, but it'll probably be something like that.

That is a good point that I hadn't considered.


--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 34
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:47:00 -0600
:] Bioware: Don't lose Essence, Lose Magic for all intents and purposes*,
:] but you still have it when you test for Magic loss.
:
: Wait, you can't take geasa for the bioware you got? No option at
:all?


No option except increasing you magic rating (using initiation or a
power focus). However, if Bioware causes your magic to drop to 0 (or less),
you are NOT mundane- get a good power focus, and you can still sling mojo.
There is no actual magic loss- instead, your use of magic is somewhat
"blocked".
Geasa as a concept that actually AID IN the use of magic are pretty new-
previous to MiTS, they were just an extra penalty you took for magic loss,
and did NOT restore use of the magic point. The "crutch" they now give does
not help in all cases- for example, (temporary) magic reduction caused by a
mana warp can not be handled with geas.

Mongoose
Message no. 35
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:08:52 -0500
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/29/1999 10:36:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> lericson@****.edu writes:
>
> > Does a physical adept loose powers for virtual Magic?
> >
> ><LittleSnip (TM)>

> I just LOVE both of these examples, as they are not detailed in any of the
> material I have ever had either. My *PERSONAL* opinion is that the Adept
> does *NOT* loose any "power points", only has a lower "cap" of
how many
> "levels" of an ability that can be bought.
>
> <MEDIUMSNIP>

Well, our house rule for SR2 and, up to this point for SR3 (though I think it's
been changed by M&M, when it is most needed) is this: you buy clonal bioware
and you don't lose magic. Easy, simple to handle, no fuss, no muss.
Message no. 36
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:14:24 -0500
Mark A Shieh wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Bioware: Don't lose Essence, Lose Magic for all intents and purposes*,
> but you still have it when you test for Magic loss.
>
> <LittleSnip (TM)>

> It seems like you're better off actually losing a point of Magic than
> installing a point of Bioware, as far as your Magic is concerned.
>

Yup, that's what it looks like. Game balance wise, I agree. Can you imagine a
troll physad with muscle aug 4, attribute boost (strength) +6 dice, and killing
hands (D)? Can you say OUCH?!? Game mechanics-wise? I think that's BS and I'm
sure it'll change. Maybe you lose 1/2 the points of Body Index of magic.

About the muscle augmentation split, what do you think? I kinda like it, I
usually bought muscle aug for the speed so now it's cheaper, but you lose the
strength benefit.

>
> Mark
Message no. 37
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:29:47 -0600
Mark wrote:

>Scott W <iscottw@*****.nb.ca> writes:
>> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Mark A Shieh."
>> ] Does anyone else get the impression that the "Bioware is less
>> ] harmful to magic than Cyberware" line just isn't true anymore?
>> ]
>> ] Cyberware: Lose Essence, Lose Magic, but can function as if you had
>> ] the lost magic if you choose and fulfill some Geasa
>> ]
>> ] Bioware: Don't lose Essence, Lose Magic for all intents and purposes*,
>> ] but you still have it when you test for Magic loss.
>>
>> Wait, you can't take a geas for the bioware you got? No option at
>> all?
>
> AFAIK (I haven't seen M&M since Wed), no. You never actually
>lost the magic, I believe the rationalization goes... I believe the
>Adept's option of voluntary Geas is still open, but that's not the
>same thing.
<Snip>

P 78 M&M Last paragraph of "BIOWARE AND THE AWAKENED
"Geasa cannot be used to counteract a Magic Rating midified by bioware, as no
Magic Points are actually lost. ..."

You get bioware - your screwed. AFA Magic Rating goes. But, hey... it's your
chioce to go with bio.

The only benefit you get over cyber AFA Magic rating is that a V.M.R. (Virtual
Magic Rating) reduced to 0 via bio can still be raised to 1 by initiating. With
cyber you get a magic rating of 0, your mundane. The big drawbacks are; No
Geasa to offset virtual loss, and the vitual loss is not figured in when
checking for lost magic points from deadly wounds and the like (actually I can
not find this last part in the book... Can someone give us a reference for
this?).
Message no. 38
From: Razors Edge. razrzedge@*****.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:01:09 -0800 (PST)
Also you get your full essence stat for determining
Target # for heal spells. Very excellent advantage.

--- Sebastian Wiers <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:
>
> :] Bioware: Don't lose Essence, Lose Magic for all
> intents and purposes*,
> :] but you still have it when you test for Magic
> loss.
> :
> : Wait, you can't take geasa for the bioware you
> got? No option at
> :all?
>
>
> No option except increasing you magic rating
> (using initiation or a
> power focus). However, if Bioware causes your magic
> to drop to 0 (or less),
> you are NOT mundane- get a good power focus, and you
> can still sling mojo.
> There is no actual magic loss- instead, your use of
> magic is somewhat
> "blocked".
> Geasa as a concept that actually AID IN the use
> of magic are pretty new-
> previous to MiTS, they were just an extra penalty
> you took for magic loss,
> and did NOT restore use of the magic point. The
> "crutch" they now give does
> not help in all cases- for example, (temporary)
> magic reduction caused by a
> mana warp can not be handled with geas.
>
> Mongoose
>
>
>

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Message no. 39
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:20:44 EST
In a message dated 11/29/1999 1:09:43 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
strago@***.com writes:

>
> Well, our house rule for SR2 and, up to this point for SR3 (though I think
> it's
> been changed by M&M, when it is most needed) is this: you buy clonal
bioware
> and you don't lose magic. Easy, simple to handle, no fuss, no muss.

And a House Rule, its' something that has been very commonly encountered, and
we used it ourselves. However, with the expansions made to Bioware, it may
not be the best option any longer.

-K (who has talked with Mike on some questions, got very good/upfront
answers, and feels *MUCH* better now)
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 40
From: John john@*******.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:25:24 -0500
So, you're still a mage but with a Virtual Magic rating of 0. You still
glow in Astral Space like a standard Mage of rating 6? And what of the
Foci overdose rules, at what level are you suseptable? Your virtual
rating or your real rating?

If it's the virtual one then you are screwed, but if you use the real
rating you could still cast spells with out the intense threat of losing
a magic point. Any thought on this one?
Message no. 41
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:37:28 EST
In a message dated 11/29/1999 3:23:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
john@*******.com writes:

> So, you're still a mage but with a Virtual Magic rating of 0. You still
> glow in Astral Space like a standard Mage of rating 6? And what of the
> Foci overdose rules, at what level are you suseptable? Your virtual
> rating or your real rating?
>
> If it's the virtual one then you are screwed, but if you use the real
> rating you could still cast spells with out the intense threat of losing
> a magic point. Any thought on this one?

After the conversation I had about 30 minutes ago or so, I would advise this.

Use literally what is in the book right now and do NOT apply any changes for
other stuff.

So, the "Foci Addiction" concept would apply to the full magic attribute, not
the Virtual One. The "Path of the Mage" Adepts would still have their
attributes, but their effectiveness (which btw affects drain comparison, but
NOT area of effect IIRC) would only be slightly effected. Also remember that
if a point of "magic loss" happens to an adept, it is applied to the
"Magician" aspect before the Adept part.

Prioritize it folks, it's already outlined, now use it.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 42
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:30:24 -0500
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/29/1999 3:23:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> john@*******.com writes:
>
> <SNIP>

> After the conversation I had about 30 minutes ago or so, I would advise this.
>

Could you expound on what was said, or is that against the rules?

>
> Use literally what is in the book right now and do NOT apply any changes for
> other stuff.
>
> So, the "Foci Addiction" concept would apply to the full magic attribute,
not
> the Virtual One. The "Path of the Mage" Adepts would still have their
> attributes, but their effectiveness (which btw affects drain comparison, but
> NOT area of effect IIRC) would only be slightly effected. Also remember that
> if a point of "magic loss" happens to an adept, it is applied to the
> "Magician" aspect before the Adept part.
>
>

But does this affect physads? If they get bioware installed, do they not get or,
if they were already created lose, their powers?

> Prioritize it folks, it's already outlined, now use it.
>
> -K
> "Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
> [Hoosier Hacker House]
> [http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
> ICQ#-51511837

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance.
In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 43
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:28:02 -0800 (PST)
<Snippola(TM)>
> But does this affect physads? If they get bioware
installed, do they not get or, if they were already
created lose, their powers?
> --Strago

Josh, I haven't read it all too thoroughly, but as a
GM, here's my interpretation.

Magical Adepts, as K said, lose points from their
"Magic" adept ability first. So if they EFFECTIVELY
lose ALL their "Magic" ability points, then they lose
the ability to cast spells. TEMPORARILY. As it's only
a VIRTUAL loss of magic points, they haven't actually
lost the ability - their spellcasting talent has
merely been impeded to a sufficient degree that they
can't cast spells atm. If they subsequently initiate
and take another point of magical ability (and that
point takes their points of magical ability higher
than their points of bioware - e.g. 3 points of bio
and 4 points of magical ability), they can then cast
spells again, albeit with a MUCH reduced ability.

Standard adepts, on the other hand, effectively lose
as many power points of abilities as they have points
of bioware. They get to choose which points are
effected. While they still HAVE the ability/ies, the
bioware has impeded their ability to use them. So an
adept who installed 1.4 points of bioware would have
to choose 2 points of abilities they couldn't use. If
they later initiate or buy a new power point, they get
to choose new powers as normal - but they can ALSO
choose whether or not to "reaccess" their old
abilities (and not be able to use the new ones), or
use the new ones (and still not be able to access the
old ones).

Anyway, that seems fair to me as a GM, so unless M&M
makes it clearer, that's how I'll do it.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 44
From: Jalong1@***.com Jalong1@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:36:52 EST
> In a message dated 11/29/1999 10:36:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> lericson@****.edu writes:
>
> > Does a physical adept loose powers for virtual Magic?
> >
> > 2. Is the reduced Magic Rating (as opposed to the virtual rating) used
> > for calculating Spell Pool?

I understood it as being more along the lines of if the Adept had a Magic
Rating of 6 and say a Virtual Rating of 5 that the adept could take 6 points
worth of abilities, but could only have 5 points worth active at any point
and time.

As for the other question from what I can tell if Magic Rating is needed use
the virtual rating. The advantage mentioned though is that while you have a
lower rating (which will happen if you go cyber or bio) the bioware will not
turn you into a mundane if you take so much bioware that you go to a 0 Magic
Rating (something that would happen if you were to reduce your Magic Rating
via, Cyberware and/or failed rolls due to Deadly damage) so you can still
cast spells (hard as hell to cast anything, but you can still do so).
The question I got which I don't see anywhere is: If you have a piece of
Bioware removed will the Magic Rating be returned to the level it was before
the Bioware was installed (along with the bioindex being lowered as well) or
will it be permanent.
Though personally until it is ruled otherwise (or someone points to the page
I missed reading) I'll be considering that you would get the point back once
the Bio is removed, but I figured I'd ask the question anyway.


Jalong1
Message no. 45
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:33:25 -0500
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> <Snippola(TM)>
> > But does this affect physads? If they get bioware
> installed, do they not get or, if they were already
> created lose, their powers?
> > --Strago
>
> Josh, I haven't read it all too thoroughly, but as a
> GM, here's my interpretation.
>

Wait, how do you know my real name? I'm confused.

>
> <SNIP the explanation>

That works for me. Thanks.

>
>
> ====> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.
>
> .sig Sauer
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the
Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+
(o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 46
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:11:35 -0800 (PST)
> > Josh, I haven't read it all too thoroughly, but as
a GM, here's my interpretation.
>
> Wait, how do you know my real name? I'm confused.

*Doc' frowns. "Don't be silly, Josh. Josh. Josh Josh.
Josh Josh Josh Josh Josh."*

> That works for me. Thanks.

*"You're welcome, Josh. Josh. Josh Josh. Josh Josh
Josh Josh Josh."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
Message no. 47
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:36:00 -0500
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > > Josh, I haven't read it all too thoroughly, but as
> a GM, here's my interpretation.
> >
> > Wait, how do you know my real name? I'm confused.
>
> *Doc' frowns. "Don't be silly, Josh. Josh. Josh Josh.
> Josh Josh Josh Josh Josh."*
>
> > That works for me. Thanks.
>
> *"You're welcome, Josh. Josh. Josh Josh. Josh Josh
> Josh Josh Josh."*
>

*Strago looks at Doc' for a second and ponders what is wrong with him.
Then he realizes he doesn't have a psychiatric degree or the time it would
require.*

>
> ====> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.
>
> .sig Sauer
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the
Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+
(o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 48
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:03:25 -0600
:The question I got which I don't see anywhere is: If you have a piece of
:Bioware removed will the Magic Rating be returned to the level it was
before
:the Bioware was installed (along with the bioindex being lowered as well)
or
:will it be permanent.

Which brings us to the surgery rules...
No, removing bioware has no automatic impact on BI, but well planned and
perfomed removal surgery can reduce the BI a lot (eliminating it would be a
medical miracle, but in Shadotech, it was simply impossible). I assume the
impact on the character's magic would depend on what thier BI ended up being
after the surgery.
Check out the "positive options" for transimplant surgery on p. 150-
"Bio Index Reduction" is used to reduce the BI impact of new bioware or
remove it when bioware is removed.

Mongoose
Message no. 49
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:04:18 -0800 (PST)
> > > Wait, how do you know my real name? I'm
confused.
> >
> > *Doc' frowns. "Don't be silly, Josh. Josh. Josh
Josh. Josh Josh Josh Josh Josh."*
> >
> > > That works for me. Thanks.
> >
> > *"You're welcome, Josh. Josh. Josh Josh. Josh Josh
Josh Josh Josh."*
>
> *Strago looks at Doc' for a second and ponders what
is wrong with him. Then he realizes he doesn't have a
psychiatric degree or the time it would require.*

What can I say?

The man knows his limitations.

;-)

*Doc' is dragged away by the men in white coats,
kicking and screaming. "No! Josh! Don't do this to me!
I LOVE YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUuUuuuuuu...

"But I love Strawberry, too..."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
Message no. 50
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:18:30 -0600
> About the muscle augmentation split, what do you think? I kinda like it,
> I usually bought muscle aug for the speed so now it's cheaper, but you
> lose the strength benefit.

So buy both muscle augmentation and muscle toner; added together, it comes
out the same as muscle augmentation the old way.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 51
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:29:03 -0500
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > > > Wait, how do you know my real name? I'm
> confused.
> > >
> > > *Doc' frowns. "Don't be silly, Josh. Josh. Josh
> Josh. Josh Josh Josh Josh Josh."*
> > >
> > > > That works for me. Thanks.
> > >
> > > *"You're welcome, Josh. Josh. Josh Josh. Josh Josh
> Josh Josh Josh."*
> >
> > *Strago looks at Doc' for a second and ponders what
> is wrong with him. Then he realizes he doesn't have a
> psychiatric degree or the time it would require.*
>
> What can I say?
>
> The man knows his limitations.
>
> ;-)
>
> *Doc' is dragged away by the men in white coats,
> kicking and screaming. "No! Josh! Don't do this to me!
> I LOVE YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUuUuuuuuu...
>
> "But I love Strawberry, too..."*
>

I think I should be scared. First K and a_e want to strip me nekkid (I
just read some of the archives) and now Doc' says he loves me. I'm sensing
a disturbing trend. Maybe I should start hitting on Rat in order to fix
it. What do you say Rat? Do you want to go with Strago? :P

*Strago is jesting. Except for the Rat part ;^)*

>
> ====> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.
>
> .sig Sauer
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the
Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+
(o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 52
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:34:50 EST
In a message dated 11/29/1999 5:32:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
strago@***.com writes:

> > After the conversation I had about 30 minutes ago or so, I would advise
> this.
> Could you expound on what was said, or is that against the rules?

I could do so, but I've already done. Basically this. Don't try and read
too much into the rules. Read the rules in their entirety and don't fixate
on stuff like singular items of cyber/bio or even single sentences/paragraphs
in which statements can counfound the rules if the sentence is NOT kept in
context with the whole material.

> > So, the "Foci Addiction" concept would apply to the full magic
attribute,
> not
> > the Virtual One. The "Path of the Mage" Adepts would still have
their
> > attributes, but their effectiveness (which btw affects drain comparison,
> but
> > NOT area of effect IIRC) would only be slightly effected. Also remember
> that
> > if a point of "magic loss" happens to an adept, it is applied to the
> > "Magician" aspect before the Adept part.
> But does this affect physads? If they get bioware installed, do they not
get
> or, if they were already created lose, their powers?


No, there are NO POWER POINTS LOST ... this was said in a different email and
stated correctly (even if it was just a hypothesis). The Level of an adept
is restricted, but NOT the power points. So if an adept had lost 3 points of
magic to the "Virtual Magic Attribute", they could still have Improved
Reflexes Level 3, but they could not have Mystic Armor Level 4.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 53
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:47:45 EST
In a message dated 11/29/1999 10:18:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

>
> So buy both muscle augmentation and muscle toner; added together, it comes
> out the same as muscle augmentation the old way.

And you'll even get more out of them than you would have originally.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 54
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:13:20 -0600
> > So buy both muscle augmentation and muscle toner; added together,
> > it comes out the same as muscle augmentation the old way.
>
> And you'll even get more out of them than you would have originally.

Really? Haven't done the comparative math yet.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 55
From: Raije murk@****.org.au
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:39:19 +1100
Well, holidays have hit, and the temperature is starting to rise again.
This can mean only one thing....time to photosynthesise...

I'll be unsubscribing ot the list soon, especially coz the traffic is
getting a bt much at the moment...too many mails, too little time.

Well, I'll prolly resub next year in february some time, but in the
meantime, have a great christmas, and a happy new year!

_____________________sabrepunk@**********.net_
Raije
sabrepunk@**********.net
UIN-2799894
~Simple Guide to Cyberpunk~
http://gateway.to/cyberpunk/
"Shit Happens, So Carry Toilet Paper"
Message no. 56
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:09:54 EST
In a message dated 11/29/1999 11:13:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

> > And you'll even get more out of them than you would have originally.
>
> Really? Haven't done the comparative math yet.

Ah, I'm talking benefits here, not Essence Index vs. Body Index (or whatever
the hell it was once referred to as).

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 57
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:59:17 +0100
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 0:09 on 30 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> > > And you'll even get more out of them than you would have originally.
> >
> > Really? Haven't done the comparative math yet.
>
> Ah, I'm talking benefits here, not Essence Index vs. Body Index (or whatever
> the hell it was once referred to as).

Are you sure? +1 Strength/level, +1 Quickness/level, and +1 Reaction/2
levels for 0.8 Body Index/45,000 nuyen seems much the same to me as +1
Strength per level for 0.4 Bio Index/20,000Y and +1 Quickness/level plus
+1 Reaction/2 levels for 0.4 Body Index/25,000Y.

In fact muscle augmentation/toner now has an extra drawback: it's
specifically mentioned to be incompatible with muscle replacement, which
wasn't the case in Shadowtech.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 58
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:32:49 -0600
> > > And you'll even get more out of them than you would have originally.
> >
> > Really? Haven't done the comparative math yet.
>
> Ah, I'm talking benefits here, not Essence Index vs. Body Index
> (or whatever the hell it was once referred to as).

Oh, that's what I was talking about as well. And it used to be Body Index.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 59
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: M&M - The big magic/bioware question
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:25:10 -0200
On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:03:16 EST
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/29/1999 10:36:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> lericson@****.edu writes:
>
> > Does a physical adept loose powers for virtual Magic?
> >
> > 2. Is the reduced Magic Rating (as opposed to the virtual rating) used
> > for calculating Spell Pool?
>
> I just LOVE both of these examples, as they are not detailed in any of the
> material I have ever had either. My *PERSONAL* opinion is that the Adept
> does *NOT* loose any "power points", only has a lower "cap" of
how many
> "levels" of an ability that can be bought.
>
> Now the second one is a bit trickier as well, as "Magic Rating" is now part

> of the integral information used to define the Spell Pool. Personally, I'm
> still not sure I'm gonna use this.
>
> -K

It will probably take me three months to get the book, but I
think a nice way to deal with Bioware is to add Bio Index and Essence
loss from cyberware to see how much Magic the mage loses... He doesn't
actually loose Essence with biological implants, and will be able to use
geasa to offset the loss.
Perhaps the official rules use these "Virtual Magic ratings" to
say that you get your magic back if you remove the bioware. Essence
doesn't come back (at least they say it in Shadowtech), so this would be
the "less drastic effect" caused by bioware.
I'm not going to use this once the book arrives, since I say
Essence does get back :) .


Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455

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