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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:46:40 -0400
Ok, let's see if I've sifted through all of this correctly. (If I get a
chance next weekend at Origins I plan to distill and talk to Mike about
some of this).

First off... Some of you really like the Track STyle
Adventures/Sourcebooks since they provide a lot of broad style information
and adventure ideas, without confining you to a specific, single adventure.

And on the flip side, some of you really dislike them for the same reason.

Ditto for the older style Modules, although the other way around.

ANd the spilt seems to be 50/50 as far as how many people like each type of
book.

So the question is, if FASA repackeged their module set-ups some, and
produced a modified for of both types, would that satisfy everyone for the
most part?

The Track Style adventures are nice, but I think they need to focus more on
the Background and storyline (and specific ideas) to provide more of a
sourcebook. Up to this point most SOurcebooks have either focused solely
on gear/rules (SSC, Grimmy, VR2, Rigger 2, etc), have focused on a specific
place or group of related places (London, The Tirs, Target UCAS and
Smugglers Havens), or have focused on a specific group (Lone Star, The old
Corp book).

Besides those we have had a couple others taht have been a bit more "odd".
Threats was a series of specific ideas that were fairly well detailed, but
that may or may not have actually happened in SR Canon and had no specific
adventure attached to it. Bug City was part Placebook, part campign, but
based almost solely around a single location.

So what if we had these:

Regular Modules that were nice, well detailed adventures like some of the
older books. Maybe one or two a year, or published as part of a regular
magazine.

Adventure SOurcebooks: Rather than detailing a specific location or a
specific single adventur, these are more along the lines of what BitB and
Super Tuesday are, except that rather than focusing on a series of related
runs, they would focus more on explaining the whole story arc in detail,
and then give ideas for creating runs around the storyline. I think this
is the intent of the current Track Adventures, but has gotten lost a bit in
the organization. Too much info that isn;t laid out well enough.

Anyways, I agree something needs to be done. THere is just too much
dissatisfaction among SR players about current product lines...

But, we'll see what happens...

Bull
Message no. 2
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:23:07 -0400
Bull wrote:
Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:46:40 -0400
<snip intro>

> So the question is, if FASA repackeged their module set-ups some, and
> produced a modified for of both types, would that satisfy everyone for the
> most part?
>
> The Track Style adventures are nice, but I think they need to focus more on
> the Background and storyline (and specific ideas) to provide more of a
> sourcebook. Up to this point most SOurcebooks have either focused solely
> on gear/rules (SSC, Grimmy, VR2, Rigger 2, etc), have focused on a specific
> place or group of related places (London, The Tirs, Target UCAS and
> Smugglers Havens), or have focused on a specific group (Lone Star, The old
> Corp book).
>
> Besides those we have had a couple others taht have been a bit more "odd".
> Threats was a series of specific ideas that were fairly well detailed, but
> that may or may not have actually happened in SR Canon and had no specific
> adventure attached to it. Bug City was part Placebook, part campign, but
> based almost solely around a single location.

I've stayed out of this thread mainly because I felt that there was nothing
that I could say that others weren't saying already. I've been playing SR
since it came out in '89 It took me a full year and joining the military
before I found anyone who was interested in the genre, by then I had a fair
understanding of most of the game mechanics and owned the majority of books
published at that time (not many then).

I have bought and read fully, Every book published for SR whether it was a
rules source, gear source, place source, or the odd bit. If it was SR, I read
it (I'm currently in a financial crunch keeping me from buying BitB and other
recent publications :( ). I've run SR about 100 times more often than I've
played it, and I enjoy the Scenarios but have never been able to use them as a
whole because my players always found a way to totally disregard what the book
laid out. I still like scenarios because I can utilize NPCs, gear, spells, and
other bits.

I like the regular source books for the obvious reason that they expand the
variety of gear, locations, and other parts of the enviroment.

I also like what they are doing with the track style adventures because they
give me a picture of the World of SR as the folks at FASA see/plan it. (Are
the FASA writers, the rumored Immortal Elves? Planning out history before it
happens?) I thoroughly enjoy knowing what's going on, it's like reading a
serial story on an epic scale.

>
>
> So what if we had these:
>
> Regular Modules that were nice, well detailed adventures like some of the
> older books. Maybe one or two a year, or published as part of a regular
> magazine.

Yes, making sure not to "flood" the market.

>
>
> Adventure SOurcebooks: Rather than detailing a specific location or a
> specific single adventur, these are more along the lines of what BitB and
> Super Tuesday are, except that rather than focusing on a series of related
> runs, they would focus more on explaining the whole story arc in detail,
> and then give ideas for creating runs around the storyline. I think this
> is the intent of the current Track Adventures, but has gotten lost a bit in
> the organization. Too much info that isn;t laid out well enough.

These could even have one relatively short detailed run, similar to what was
done forthe NAN volumes.

I'd like to add, it would be nice to see regular place books published on a
regular basis, maybe one a year or 18 months... I like having ideas for places
to send my PCs to, but I can easily come up with adventures. Much easier than
writing out details for a new locale...



--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
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-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 3
From: Randy Nickel <DeSynn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:13:15 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-26 20:41:31 EDT, you write:

> The Track Style adventures are nice, but I think they need to focus more on
> the Background and storyline (and specific ideas) to provide more of a
> sourcebook. Up to this point most SOurcebooks have either focused solely
> on gear/rules (SSC, Grimmy, VR2, Rigger 2, etc), have focused on a specific
> place or group of related places (London, The Tirs, Target UCAS and
> Smugglers Havens), or have focused on a specific group (Lone Star, The old
> Corp book).

I think that the tracks are a nice idea but they need more detail. Set stats
for NPCs, maps of their hideouts (I hate having to draw maps), etc.

One of things that really bugged me was they way they assumed that certain
characters were bigger then the PCs. In fact one of them, I don't recall which
whether BitBR or MW, is supposed to be at least +2 initiate grades higher then
the highest mage in the part. Our highest mage was an initiate 8 and that is
pretty high as far as I was concerned. I had already set this PC up as the
biggest mage in the city and for a module to just say "oh, whatever your PCs
are at just make this NPC 2 levels higher or make sure that this person's
combat skills are higher then everyone's in the party", that just kind of
irked me.

Not that I have to obey what they wrote, I didn't intend to, but to me the PCs
should be the biggest predators on the planet with challenges coming from
multiple encounters rather then one person that is created to be really big.

Anyway, modules that assume that the runners are just not as skilled as the
opposition have always bugged me.


Otter
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:24:08 +0100
Randy Nickel said on 1:13/27 Jun 98,...

> One of things that really bugged me was they way they assumed that certain
> characters were bigger then the PCs. In fact one of them, I don't recall which
> whether BitBR or MW, is supposed to be at least +2 initiate grades higher then
> the highest mage in the part. Our highest mage was an initiate 8 and that is
> pretty high as far as I was concerned.

That's mainly, I think, because the Companion introduced the
idea of rating NPCs relative to the PCs instead of absolutely, in
order to make them about the same power level regardless of the
campaign. That way, if you run a street-level campaign where a
light pistol is considered a heavy weapon and cyberware is
severely limited, the enemy is relatively about as powerful as
when your PCs are all cyberzombies with assault cannons.

(BTW, this is another thing I don't really like about the
Companions rules for NPCs; I prefer to have absolute values.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:19:28 -0600
At 01:13 27/06/98 EDT, you wrote:

>One of things that really bugged me was they way they assumed that certain
>characters were bigger then the PCs. In fact one of them, I don't recall
which
>whether BitBR or MW, is supposed to be at least +2 initiate grades higher
then
>the highest mage in the part. Our highest mage was an initiate 8 and that is
>pretty high as far as I was concerned. I had already set this PC up as the
>biggest mage in the city and for a module to just say "oh, whatever your PCs
>are at just make this NPC 2 levels higher or make sure that this person's
>combat skills are higher then everyone's in the party", that just kind of
>irked me.

I don't much like this new way of doing things either (For one, it assumes
everyone bought the Companion..) However, it does make good sense -- I run
a much lower powered game than most people, so some of the encounters in
FASA modules are like "Yeah, right." and take tons of fixing up so the
group can go without being blown to crispy fried bits.

However, just because you assume a mage is the biggest in the city..
certainly doesn't mean he is :)

After all..somebody may hear about his rep, and decide that he wants to
take the PC mage down, or he may be a magical import.. something like that :)

-Adam J


-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
"And you know why these (Independent) movies are good? Because they come
from Bumblefuck, America." -- Kevin Smith.
Message no. 6
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:28:26 +0000
On 27 Jun 98 at 12:24, Gurth wrote:

> (BTW, this is another thing I don't really like about the
> Companions rules for NPCs; I prefer to have absolute values.)

It's a bit more work but a lot better as far as I'm concerned. Don't
you remember that when Prime Runners arrived lot of people on the
list thought the characters in there were kinda wussies? At least in
this way they no longer are, although with an initiate in the group
the runners will have a disproportionate high number of equally or
higher level initiate enemies... ah who cares.
BTW the threat ratings are an even better way to equalize an
encounter on the spot, best invention ever.
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:02:53 +0100
Martin Steffens said on 9:28/28 Jun 98,...

> > (BTW, this is another thing I don't really like about the
> > Companions rules for NPCs; I prefer to have absolute values.)
>
> It's a bit more work but a lot better as far as I'm concerned. Don't
> you remember that when Prime Runners arrived lot of people on the
> list thought the characters in there were kinda wussies?

I think I just missed debate that due to forced unsubscription a
little while before you arrived on the list :) I do remember Erik
setting up Edge Runners because of this, though.

> At least in
> this way they no longer are, although with an initiate in the group
> the runners will have a disproportionate high number of equally or
> higher level initiate enemies... ah who cares.

But the trouble there is that you get descriptions of what the
characters are like, but no game stats. All it'll say is "[Whoever]
is Superior to the PC group's decker" or something like that. Like
Adam said, that first of all assumes everybody owns the
Companion and likes those particular rules. Second it means you
have to think about the character before the game and make up
stats for him or her, or waste time during the game doing the
same thing.

> BTW the threat ratings are an even better way to equalize an
> encounter on the spot, best invention ever.

Those are what I use. If characters turn out to be too powerful, I
just decide they won't use all of their TR dice, or if they're too
weak I'll add a few dice.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:40:17 -0600
Gurth Wrote:


>But the trouble there is that you get descriptions of what the
>characters are like, but no game stats. All it'll say is "[Whoever]
>is Superior to the PC group's decker" or something like that. Like
>Adam said, that first of all assumes everybody owns the
>Companion and likes those particular rules. Second it means you
>have to think about the character before the game and make up
>stats for him or her, or waste time during the game doing the
>same thing.
>
>> BTW the threat ratings are an even better way to equalize an
>> encounter on the spot, best invention ever.
>
>Those are what I use. If characters turn out to be too powerful, I
>just decide they won't use all of their TR dice, or if they're too
>weak I'll add a few dice.
>


You just gave the solution to your stated problem. You don't have to draw
up complete stats for the NPC, just alter those of the PC. In the example
of the decker you can make his deck a little faster and bump up the power
of his software. If the NPC would have resarched the PC he was going to be
facing (and you as the GM are feeling nasty) you can give him software that
will counter all of the PC's favorite moves.

You don't even have to do this ahead of time. Give the NPC a certain
chance to have the perfect program for any situation. I prefer rolling
percentage dice for this but you could say roll his threat rating against a
TN of 3 (or 2 hehehehehe).

I think this makes it easyer, but then again I love having a fudge factor.

Piatro
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:22:30 +0100
Pete Wilson said on 15:40/28 Jun 98,...

> You just gave the solution to your stated problem. You don't have to draw
> up complete stats for the NPC, just alter those of the PC.

That I don't like, because then each NPC will be a clone of the PC
to a greater or smaller extent, at least stat-wise.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:27:28 +0000
On 28 Jun 98 at 12:02, Gurth wrote:


> But the trouble there is that you get descriptions of what the
> characters are like, but no game stats. All it'll say is "[Whoever]
> is Superior to the PC group's decker" or something like that. Like
> Adam said, that first of all assumes everybody owns the
> Companion and likes those particular rules.

Well yeah, but don't all the books do that? I haven't found one that
didn't say "you need that and that book for this"

> Second it means you
> have to think about the character before the game and make up
> stats for him or her, or waste time during the game doing the
> same thing.

Just make copies of your PC sheets and scribble the
increased/decreased values next to the real ones. Heck I often let
PC's fight against old characters or slightly changed copies of
themselves. With all the work for the GM it's nice to let the PC's do
something too for a change :)

> Those are what I use. If characters turn out to be too powerful, I
> just decide they won't use all of their TR dice, or if they're too
> weak I'll add a few dice.

I usually end up adding a few, since my main NPC's have a tendency to
walk into these annoying lucky shots by players which would send them
to kingdom come before they can even do as much as taunt them
with maniacal laughter.
I do suspect my dice of treachery, but they won't admit...


Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 11
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:05:21 EDT
In a message dated 6/29/98 4:27:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
chimerae@***.IE writes:

> > Second it means you
> > have to think about the character before the game and make up
> > stats for him or her, or waste time during the game doing the
> > same thing.

Actually, at least for me (and now Mike), all we really have to do is think
about the former, and skip the latter). AKA, we pretty much know what the
PC's are all about (the one real benefit to having older characters that have
been around for a while) and as such, it's okay to come up with an NPC or two
that are "recurring" (and as such, have special files on the Rig and the
PacBell here in the Den. Anything more, we literally wing based more or less
upon the "what is average for this situation". IF you say the place is
"heavy
in security", then wuahlah!!! Heavy Security Code weapons and Armor. If you
say it's "light in security", then wuahlah!!! Lighter Security code weapons
and Armor. Status for the Matrix and the Magic are the same as well.

Corporate Shadowfiles was really helpful in this regard. We used the
"security ratings" as the stats ranges for the dice thrown by the NPC's. So
if a system has a "Matrix of 4", then the base rating is a "4", with a
color
code usually in the Green or Orange. ACIFS are rolled from that number.
Security officers would have a "4" in their base skills (including reaction),
with a "Threat/Professional" rating not higher than a "4" on average.

> Just make copies of your PC sheets and scribble the
> increased/decreased values next to the real ones. Heck I often let
> PC's fight against old characters or slightly changed copies of
> themselves. With all the work for the GM it's nice to let the PC's do
> something too for a change :)

Ah hell, who needs to scribble.... ;)

> > Those are what I use. If characters turn out to be too powerful, I
> > just decide they won't use all of their TR dice, or if they're too
> > weak I'll add a few dice.

Always something nice to consider if you want things to be a challenge and not
outright "Murderous".

> I usually end up adding a few, since my main NPC's have a tendency to
> walk into these annoying lucky shots by players which would send them
> to kingdom come before they can even do as much as taunt them
> with maniacal laughter.
> I do suspect my dice of treachery, but they won't admit...

Yours too eh? More than once I've had that thought....however, on a different
note...

That comment made earlier about "letting the PC's do it for you." I once had
an "evil's campaign" bad in AD$D. Everyone playing it took great glee, up
until one of the players suddenly realized what I was doing. I was setting up
their own "bad guys" to go up against their own "good guys". Gosh was
it fun,
they even liked it in the end....talk about letting the "Players" do it all
for ya... ;p

-K
Message no. 12
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:42:38 -0400
At 10:27 AM 6/29/98 +0000, Martin Steffens wrote these timeless words:
>On 28 Jun 98 at 12:02, Gurth wrote:
>
>
>> But the trouble there is that you get descriptions of what the
>> characters are like, but no game stats. All it'll say is "[Whoever]
>> is Superior to the PC group's decker" or something like that. Like
>> Adam said, that first of all assumes everybody owns the
>> Companion and likes those particular rules.
>
Ok, I don;t have my books readily available right now (They're curently
locked in my office at school, and another guy went and lost the key to the
cabinet :/ ), so can someone help me out and explain what exactly this
"Rule" is?

Sounds an awful lot like it's more flexibility than anything else... And
it's not something I need a rule for, it's something i always do... I
don;t remember this little bit from the Companion for some reason...

>Well yeah, but don't all the books do that? I haven't found one that
>didn't say "you need that and that book for this"
>
Also keep in mind, the companion is also considered a "core" book, meaning
that it is supposed to be as valid as the BBB and can and will be used as
rules for sourcebooks and the like.

However, I do have to say this is a bit odd since the Companion is suppsed
to be all optional rules... :] Oh well... Guess FASA has decided to take
that option <g>

>> Second it means you
>> have to think about the character before the game and make up
>> stats for him or her, or waste time during the game doing the
>> same thing.
>
>Just make copies of your PC sheets and scribble the
>increased/decreased values next to the real ones. Heck I often let
>PC's fight against old characters or slightly changed copies of
>themselves. With all the work for the GM it's nice to let the PC's do
>something too for a change :)
>
No offense, but really, is whipping up a set of stats really that hard or
time consuming? I scratch built a team of 6 runners as opposition a couple
weeks ago, complete with real basic gear, in about 15 minutes... Hell, I
spend longer than that deciding to get out of bed some mornings...

Bull
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:14:41 +0100
Martin Steffens said on 10:27/29 Jun 98,...

> Well yeah, but don't all the books do that? I haven't found one that
> didn't say "you need that and that book for this"

Okay, that's true for the most part. It's just that I feel you
shouldn't need to refer to a non-core rulebook to find out
essential information.

> I do suspect my dice of treachery, but they won't admit...

Unfortunately you're in the wrong country now to let Jomanda
treat them... :)

BTW, does anyone else find that dice sometimes seem to have a
will of their own? I've had several characters now who tend to roll
one or two successes on Intelligence tests, nbut almost never
more or less. Similarly, last Friday the GM managed to roll for the
NPCs in such a way that just about every time it would benefit
us; and then of course there's the "Four choices -- I'll roll a die.
Five! Roll again... Six! Again... Five!"

Or am I the only one suffering from this?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:50:17 -0400
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:14:41 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>BTW, does anyone else find that dice sometimes seem to have a
>will of their own? I've had several characters now who tend to roll
>one or two successes on Intelligence tests, nbut almost never
>more or less. Similarly, last Friday the GM managed to roll for the
>NPCs in such a way that just about every time it would benefit
>us; and then of course there's the "Four choices -- I'll roll a die.
>Five! Roll again... Six! Again... Five!"
>
>Or am I the only one suffering from this?

Hardly. I'm playing an ork street shaman in a friend's game. You'd
think that a shaman could perform magic, y'know, being a shaman. Not
according to the rebellious dice I was using last night. Failed all but
one tests and botched two. It wasn't what I'd call pretty.

-Matt da Ork

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Message no. 15
From: Randy Nickel <RANNIC@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:35:45 -0700
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:14:41 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
writes:
>>BTW, does anyone else find that dice sometimes seem to have a
>>will of their own? I've had several characters now who tend to
roll
>>one or two successes on Intelligence tests, nbut almost never
>>more or less. Similarly, last Friday the GM managed to roll
for the
>>NPCs in such a way that just about every time it would benefit
>>us; and then of course there's the "Four choices -- I'll roll
a die.
>>Five! Roll again... Six! Again... Five!"
>>
>>Or am I the only one suffering from this?

-Matt da Ork
>Hardly. I'm playing an ork street shaman in a friend's game.
You'd
>think that a shaman could perform magic, y'know, being a
shaman. Not
>according to the rebellious dice I was using last night.
Failed all but
>one tests and botched two. It wasn't what I'd call pretty.

I hate dice rolling. I really do for exactly the above reasons.
I sometimes use the White Wolf approach and just role-play through a
scene asking a character what his score is in say Street Etiquette and
then telling him what information he gets from his contact. I hate
having to roll dice for everything. Even combat. Sometimes it is fun to
just do a descriptive combat asking the players what they want to do and
telling them what happens.

It's like one of my players pointed out....

"We are supposed to be the best and sometimes the dice just fail
you."

So I lower the target numbers for some things. I don't recall
the charts but I go with something like 3 is easy, 4 is normal, 5 is
difficult, 6 & 7 are very difficult, 8 is heroic and 9 & 10 are nigh
impossible. I still use modifiers for equipment, preparation, and wounds
though.

The only time I have target numbers higher then 10 is when I
want the players to say "maybe we shouldn't so this."

Otter
Message no. 16
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:02:10 -0500
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:46:40 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>Ok, let's see if I've sifted through all of this correctly. (If I get a
>chance next weekend at Origins I plan to distill and talk to Mike about
>some of this).

Cool. Which Neaxt weekend is that? June 27/28 or July 4/5? :)

>First off... Some of you really like the Track STyle
>Adventures/Sourcebooks since they provide a lot of broad style
information
>and adventure ideas, without confining you to a specific, single
adventure.
>
>And on the flip side, some of you really dislike them for the same
reason.
>
>Ditto for the older style Modules, although the other way around.
>
>ANd the spilt seems to be 50/50 as far as how many people like each type
of
>book.
>
>So the question is, if FASA repackeged their module set-ups some, and
>produced a modified for of both types, would that satisfy everyone for
the
>most part?

Well, the problem is (for me at least) is I don't want to buy adventures.
I only buy sourcebooks. It's too expensive to buy adventures and I write
my own. I don't like BitB, MW!, etc because people say they are
adventures with source material in them. Now, FASA's own writer's
guidelines say that is a no-no. Now, if they want to throw adventures
(mini-adventures, full adventures, and/or track adventures) into
sourcebooks, I've got no problems. But the other way around is too much
of a drain on my bank account ...

>The Track Style adventures are nice, but I think they need to focus more
on
>the Background and storyline (and specific ideas) to provide more of a
>sourcebook. Up to this point most SOurcebooks have either focused
solely
>on gear/rules (SSC, Grimmy, VR2, Rigger 2, etc), have focused on a
specific
>place or group of related places (London, The Tirs, Target UCAS and
>Smugglers Havens), or have focused on a specific group (Lone Star, The
old
>Corp book).
>
>Besides those we have had a couple others taht have been a bit more
"odd".
>Threats was a series of specific ideas that were fairly well detailed,
but
>that may or may not have actually happened in SR Canon and had no
specific
>adventure attached to it. Bug City was part Placebook, part campign,
but
>based almost solely around a single location.
>
>So what if we had these:
>
>Regular Modules that were nice, well detailed adventures like some of
the
>older books. Maybe one or two a year, or published as part of a regular
>magazine.
>
>Adventure SOurcebooks: Rather than detailing a specific location or a
>specific single adventur, these are more along the lines of what BitB
and
>Super Tuesday are, except that rather than focusing on a series of
related
>runs, they would focus more on explaining the whole story arc in detail,
>and then give ideas for creating runs around the storyline. I think
this
>is the intent of the current Track Adventures, but has gotten lost a bit
in
>the organization. Too much info that isn;t laid out well enough.

I don't know ... If they are mostly sourcebooks, maybe. If they are half
adventure or mostly adventure, I'll feel like I'm wasting money ...

>Anyways, I agree something needs to be done. THere is just too much
>dissatisfaction among SR players about current product lines...
>
>But, we'll see what happens...
>
>Bull

BTW, for me it's not that I HAVE to have all the rules / material FASA
puts out but rather I'd like to have as much of FASA's canon world as
possible ... and if FASA spreads it too thin accross too many books, I
can't do that ... :(

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 17
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:02:34 -0500
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:14:41 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>Martin Steffens said on 10:27/29 Jun 98,...
<SNIP>
>> I do suspect my dice of treachery, but they won't admit...
>
>Unfortunately you're in the wrong country now to let Jomanda
>treat them... :)
>
>BTW, does anyone else find that dice sometimes seem to have a
>will of their own? I've had several characters now who tend to roll
>one or two successes on Intelligence tests, nbut almost never
>more or less. Similarly, last Friday the GM managed to roll for the
>NPCs in such a way that just about every time it would benefit
>us; and then of course there's the "Four choices -- I'll roll a die.
>Five! Roll again... Six! Again... Five!"
>
>Or am I the only one suffering from this?
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl -
<SNIP Sig>

I know which of my dice tend to roll high (I -LOVE- those chaos dice I
got from Gamemasters!) and which tend to roll low (Those solid plastic,
red & white ones suck!) and tend to pick my dice accordingly ;)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 18
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:34:30 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:14 PM 6/29/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>BTW, does anyone else find that dice sometimes seem to have a
>will of their own? I've had several characters now who tend to roll
>one or two successes on Intelligence tests, nbut almost never
>more or less. Similarly, last Friday the GM managed to roll for the
>NPCs in such a way that just about every time it would benefit
>us; and then of course there's the "Four choices -- I'll roll a die.
>Five! Roll again... Six! Again... Five!"

Dice usually do have slight sweetspots in their probability curves. It
all stems from the fact that you would get a exact 1-in-6 chance for
each face ONLY if your dice were a Perfect Cube (we're talking pure
Platonic Solid here, measured down to the pico-angstrom) with an
absolutely homogenous distribution of mass. ANY deviation, and the
sides with the larger faces will be more stable, less likely to tip
over to the next face, and the center of gravity will always try to
seek the lowest point.

However, most imperfections in dice aren't enough to radically skew
the the results. It would take hundreds of rolls to be able to
document the difference. I should know. I won a few math fairs with
statistical measurements of my collection of dice. (The strange thing
about making several thousand dice rolls in the space of a fortnight,
is that you get to see the odd, statistcally improbable rolls. One
roll spun on the corner of the die, like a top, for a good 15
minutes.)
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 19
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:07:43 -0400
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:02:34 -0500 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
writes:

>I know which of my dice tend to roll high (I -LOVE- those chaos dice I
got from >Gamemasters!) and which tend to roll low (Those solid plastic,
red & white ones >suck!) and tend to pick my dice accordingly ;)

A friend of mine who GMs seemingly can use *any* dice to roll what he
wants. He's been RPGing since the first edition of AD$D came out. It's
really interesting to watch him do it, too. He does this sort of
wrist-flick motion. "Oh, darn. Guess that troll sammie hits ya! Try an
beat six successes."

-Matt, Ork at Large

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Message no. 20
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:20:28 EDT
In a message dated 29/06/98 23:18:56 Central Daylight Time, steelclaw@****.COM
writes:

> A friend of mine who GMs seemingly can use *any* dice to roll what he
> wants. He's been RPGing since the first edition of AD$D came out. It's
> really interesting to watch him do it, too. He does this sort of
> wrist-flick motion. "Oh, darn. Guess that troll sammie hits ya! Try an
> beat six successes."
>
> -Matt, Ork at Large

Dammit, I knew I recognized that address from somewhere! Matt Penn, aka
Laserbeak, correct? Or am I about to make myself look like an ass in front of
150 people?

Nexx
Message no. 21
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:46:57 -0400
On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:20:28 EDT Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM> writes:

>Dammit, I knew I recognized that address from somewhere! Matt Penn, aka
>Laserbeak, correct? Or am I about to make myself look like an ass in
front of 150 >people?

Do you know how tempting it is to say, "Who the hell you're talking
about?" Almost overwhelming. <G> But, it's me. Gotten tired of
Palladium and the PML. They were making NPCs of their ex-girlfriends for
chrissakes. Fortunately, a pal introduced me to Shadowrun, which
truthfully I like better anyhow. Here I be.

-Matt, Ork at Large
"Bug City? Why's it called that? Ah...I see..."

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Message no. 22
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:16:16 EDT
In a message dated 29/06/98 23:47:22 Central Daylight Time, steelclaw@****.COM
writes:

> Do you know how tempting it is to say, "Who the hell you're talking
> about?" Almost overwhelming. <G>

Coming from you? I was surprised you didn't.

> But, it's me. Gotten tired of
> Palladium and the PML. They were making NPCs of their ex-girlfriends for
> chrissakes. Fortunately, a pal introduced me to Shadowrun, which
> truthfully I like better anyhow. Here I be.

I'm almost tempted to send Gabe the subscribing instructions, just so he can
see how well it runs.

For those of you wondering what we're talking about, we were both on the
Palladium Mailing List, which has a real problem with abject stupidity, but
has a really great official presence, and has been mentioned in a few books
(one book was dedicated to the Admin, in fact). But, like I said, the stupids
tend to rule that list, and so every so often everyone with an ounce of sense
unsubscribes, simply to get away from the stupidity.

Nexx
Message no. 23
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:23:12 +0000
On 29 Jun 98 at 12:42, Bull wrote:

[using old PC's as NPC's later]
> No offense, but really, is whipping up a set of stats really that hard or
> time consuming? I scratch built a team of 6 runners as opposition a couple
> weeks ago, complete with real basic gear, in about 15 minutes... Hell, I
> spend longer than that deciding to get out of bed some mornings...

Not really, but I often forget to do that, and then it's handy to
have a stack of ex-PC's handy for your competitive decker/sam/etc.
Although I tend to get caught up in it when I do make up stats for
NPC runners... it certainly takes me more than 15 minutes.


Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 24
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:43:22 EDT
In a message dated 6/29/98 11:37:13 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
chaos@*****.COM writes:

> >Just make copies of your PC sheets and scribble the
> >increased/decreased values next to the real ones. Heck I often let
> >PC's fight against old characters or slightly changed copies of
> >themselves. With all the work for the GM it's nice to let the PC's do
> >something too for a change :)
> >
> No offense, but really, is whipping up a set of stats really that hard or
> time consuming? I scratch built a team of 6 runners as opposition a couple
> weeks ago, complete with real basic gear, in about 15 minutes... Hell, I
> spend longer than that deciding to get out of bed some mornings...
>
Boy, now if that doesn't just say something for the establishment of priority.

Back OnT now...Bull, how on earth did you "whip up" some NPC's in 15 minutes?
I am assuming you literally whipped them up, and didn't follow any of the
design concepts used for player characters?

-K
Message no. 25
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:55:55 -0600
At 12:43 30/06/98 EDT, you wrote:

>> No offense, but really, is whipping up a set of stats really that hard or
>> time consuming? I scratch built a team of 6 runners as opposition a
couple
>> weeks ago, complete with real basic gear, in about 15 minutes... Hell, I
>> spend longer than that deciding to get out of bed some mornings...

>Back OnT now...Bull, how on earth did you "whip up" some NPC's in 15
minutes?
>I am assuming you literally whipped them up, and didn't follow any of the
>design concepts used for player characters?

<shrug> For one shot NPC's it doesn't take much beyond: Okay, she's a
decker, intelligence 5, charisma 4, etc, she has such and such important
skills, and she looks like Chris's sister, but blonde and not-so-short.

Just like basing an NPC off one of the contact books. You knock up a few
stats, you knock down a few stats, and you're done. NPC's that won't last
don't need anything fancy, and none of them need chargen rules and all that
jazz.

-Adam J
-
/ http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ 2350330 \
/ ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / RPGA Reviwer \ TSS Productions \
/ The Shadowrun Supplemental / SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ Pocket Sec '98 \
\ FreeRPG Webring Admin / SR Webring Admin \ The Entity responsible for /
\ Bringing the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball to the Internet /
Message no. 26
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:00:09 -0400
At 12:43 PM 6/30/98 EDT, K is the Symbol wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 6/29/98 11:37:13 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>chaos@*****.COM writes:
>
>> >Just make copies of your PC sheets and scribble the
>> >increased/decreased values next to the real ones. Heck I often let
>> >PC's fight against old characters or slightly changed copies of
>> >themselves. With all the work for the GM it's nice to let the PC's do
>> >something too for a change :)
>> >
>> No offense, but really, is whipping up a set of stats really that hard or
>> time consuming? I scratch built a team of 6 runners as opposition a
couple
>> weeks ago, complete with real basic gear, in about 15 minutes... Hell, I
>> spend longer than that deciding to get out of bed some mornings...
>>
>Boy, now if that doesn't just say something for the establishment of
priority.
>
>Back OnT now...Bull, how on earth did you "whip up" some NPC's in 15
minutes?
>I am assuming you literally whipped them up, and didn't follow any of the
>design concepts used for player characters?
>
Bascially, i have some generic templates made out that have three "NPC
Character Sheets" per page.

They looks a bit like this (And ths takes roughly 15 seconds to write up :] )

Name:
Type:
Bod: Cha: Reaction: Skills:
Gear:
Qui: Int: Initiative:
Str: Wil: Pool:
NOTES:


Then I decide what my team will be... Orc Sammy, Female Elven Mer, Troll
Wolf Shaman, Human Sammy, Human Rigger, Human Female Decker.

I throw in the appropriate stats for the character, give them some
appropriate gear (Depending on how perful the runners I'm dealing with,
usually Wired 1 or 2, maybe some Muscles or Bioware booster, VCS for the
rigger, Spel lock or two as needed for the Shaman, and a few guns and armor
[Standard Standby is Armor Jacket or light sec armor])

I then throw in a one sentance description of physical appearance [I'll use
the shaman] (8'8", log, shaggy brown hair, one broken tusk, silver pendant
with a wolf's head on it), a name (Allen Anderson, aka Chomper), a several
word personality (Loud, obnoxious, mean.) And any appropriate behavioral
notes as necessary (Drinks a lot when off duty).

The stats get applied as necessary. I have one group that's a bit
powerful, so I often apply higher end stats (5-6 for most things), though I
mostly follow Max stats for metas... If during the game this turns out to
be too good, then I tone them down some.

Skills usually follow the two or three that are most appropriate to class,
plus Unarmed Combat and Firearms. I usually go with 5's or 6's here too,
unless my characters are weak,

IF the character is going to be a more important NPC, then I might spend a
little more time and give him a real character sheet. Or if he survives
the encounter (Which can be rare with some of the twonks in my game.
McKenna loves to shoot the plot device), and I liked him or my players did
and want to deal with him again, I'll flesh it out a bit more.

But that's ll there really is to it. No need to go too into detail ahead
of time, since who knows how much I'll actually use the character :]

It really becomes subjective to what I have as players, and all numbers can
and do change frequantly. AT best, anything I write down is a guideline,
reference notes for the character. I flub half my dice rolls anyways :]

After all, what are dice but Sound Effects to make the players nervous :]

Bull
Message no. 27
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:07:15 EDT
In a message dated 6/29/98 11:21:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Nexx3@***.COM
writes:

> > -Matt, Ork at Large
>
> Dammit, I knew I recognized that address from somewhere! Matt Penn, aka
> Laserbeak, correct? Or am I about to make myself look like an ass in front
> of
> 150 people?
>
nah, Nexx, you don't have to do anything to make yourself look like that :P

-K (hit and run, hit and run)
Message no. 28
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:13:50 EDT
In a message dated 6/29/98 11:47:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
steelclaw@****.COM writes:

> -Matt, Ork at Large
> "Bug City? Why's it called that? Ah...I see..."
>
Hey Matt, how about

Matt, Ork -IS- Large!!!


:)

-K
Message no. 29
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:40:53 EDT
In a message dated 98-06-30 14:14:56 EDT, you write:

> > -Matt, Ork at Large
> > "Bug City? Why's it called that? Ah...I see..."
> >
> Hey Matt, how about
>
> Matt, Ork -IS- Large!!!

Nah, he should just stick with Laserbeak.

Nexx, the Naked Dwarven Knight
Message no. 30
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:02:36 +0100
At 30-Jun-98 wrote K is the Symbol:



>Back OnT now...Bull, how on earth did you "whip up" some NPC's in 15
minutes?
>I am assuming you literally whipped them up, and didn't follow any of the
>design concepts used for player characters?

Errr Well when I GM I whip up most NPCs on the fly write down the stuff that
interest me
atm about the NPC. So I have a solid base for later uses of the same NPC.
Of course core NPCs get abit more thought :)

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: Randy Nickel <RANNIC@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:27:05 -0700
>Errr Well when I GM I whip up most NPCs on the fly write down the stuff
that
>interest me atm about the NPC. So I have a solid base for later uses of
the same NPC.
>Of course core NPCs get abit more thought :)

>-Barbie

I pretty much do something like this.....

Rent-a-cop, Security Guard - Combat skill/Important Attributes: 3,
Threat: 2. Reaction: 4 +1D

Standard Lone Star, Trained Security, Low Level Mobsters (Yaks, Mafia,
etc.) - Combat skill/Important Attributes: 4, Threat: 2 to 4, Reaction
5 +1D*

Knight Errant, Lone Star SWAT, Low Level Runners - Combat
skill/Important Attributes: 5, Threat: 4, Reaction: 5 +1D*

Named-Runners, Hit Men (Corp or Mob): Combat skill/Important Attributes:
6+, Threat: 5+, Reaction: 8 +**D

Prime Runners: I make sheets for these guys.

*May have some limited cyber/bioware
** Will always have something (magic, cyber/bioware) that increases
reaction and/or attributes.

Just thought that I would throw that out there.

Otter
Message no. 32
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Modules and Sourcebook/Trackline Adventures
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:18:15 -0400
Matt Penn wrote:
Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:07:43 -0400

> A friend of mine who GMs seemingly can use *any* dice to roll what he
> wants. He's been RPGing since the first edition of AD$D came out. It's
> really interesting to watch him do it, too. He does this sort of
> wrist-flick motion. "Oh, darn. Guess that troll sammie hits ya! Try an
> beat six successes."

<snip sig>

I used to "tap" dice to be more likely to roll what I wanted. I would
physically tap the dice on a hard surface, making sure the desired number I
wanted was on bottom. It worked on about 80% of the rolls, but of course
everyone else either got annoyed by this, or knew to expect something when I
was GMing.

--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
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PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------

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