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Message no. 1
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Money
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 01:29:22 -0500
>First of all, at least in the USA, it is illegal for anyone other than the
>goverment to print money. I don't know if this applies to the UCAS, but I
>would think it would. Corporate Scrips is allowed in the USA, but only for use
>inside of a company.

Well, that controls who prints it. Use is another matter. For instance, when
I lived in Germany there were many German stores, proportional to the distance
from American posts, that would accept US dollars. If you say corporat
sovreignty is akin to national sovreignty as fAr as rights and priviliges go,
I think the analogy holds.

>Secondly, you don't want people outside of the corporation using your scrip
>because it cost you money! As you said the company charges twice the cost of
>production in scrip while it charges three times the cost of production in
>regular money types. If you let people outside of the corp use scrip you are
>in effect giving them the 33% discount you give corp employees who are given
>Corp Scrip instead of cash discounts. Make those people outside of the
>corp pay in gold, which money stands in for.

Well, that's true. If Alex walks across the street to Ben's store and Ben
accepts Alez's corps scrip, Ben can then spend the scrip on those discounted
prices. Does the corp care? No, because the amount of money in circulation
hasn't changed. If they want to give the discount to employees only, they
will restrict access to the store or require corp ID, rather than regulate
it through money. Of course, Ben can also exchange the corp scrip for regular
cash if he doesn't want to shop at the corp.

As for gold, I was told that we were now off the gold standard. The only thing
that makes a dollar valuable is, to use hyperbole, the faith in America. We're
all pretty confident that any given store we enter in the US will accept
greenbacks. If, for some reason, they weren't (runaway inflation, for example)
the problem would be exacerbated and the dollar would continue to dwindle
in purchasing power. There is not enough gold to honor every buck-we just
have a strong enough economy that it doesn't matter.

/
\ I / J Roberson
- 0 - "Women are from Venus. Men are from Mars.
/ I \ Me? I'm from Earth."
+ --Me, except I'm sure someone else thought of it, too.
Message no. 2
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: MONEY
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 03:18:15 -0500
>I didn't say ALL corp scrip is commonly accepted - only scrip originating from
>the Big Boys - the Fortune 100 corporations, who have better credit ratings
>than the governments. Other scrip is not commonly accepted or accepted at
>below face value.

I doubt even F100 companies would do it. Imagine the chaos of the city
of 101 currencies. I'm sure some can, but not me. Not all Gold Pieces are
created equal.

Also, I guess Japan is on pretty solid footing, considering NuYen is the
standard measure, at least as much as the dollar is today. Don't forget that
this scrip business has to be worked into the already existing Srun universe-
I think FASA's limiting corps scrip to corps is a cop-out explanation as
to why it hasn't been in the character's lives before.

>Second, the ID please rule would invalidate some of the usefulness of the
>scrip - remember, the assumption is that it will be used in corp owned stores
>for corp produced products. If you have to monitor and record all the transacti
>ons, then why even have scrip. The whole point of scrip is that it eliminates
>the need for explicit control.

Like it's a real hassle to scan the credtick (which will be used for most
transactions anyway) for ID in the check-out lane.

You're saying that asking for an ID invalidates the reason for scrip's
existence, which is to regulate the purchase or corp products in corp
stores. But that brings up a good point-why the hell are they issuing scrip
in the first place?

* Employee benefits:lower cost. Well, let's see, there are a number
of ways to do this. 1) Everyone gets on the corp credit plan. . .you get
a break when even you buy the Ares Macrotech Washing Machine. ..just as
good as the gun. 2) You mark down everything in a store and allow only corp
employees access to that store. The latter method is exactly what the US
Army has done with their PXs and AAFES outlets. Granted, some places are lax
and it is the oh-so-efficient Army, but it has worked.

* The corp wants to enter the funfunfun world of money markets, where
its scrip becomes just another product, like the dollar or NuYen. This one
makes a little more sense to me. After all, it's another opportunity to
make money.


> Third, by issuing such scrip you ensure yourself a certain market - your
>own employees by giving them a discount, BUT the corps don't want people who
>would normally pay full-price to get the discount. i.e. by ensuring yourself
>a mass market ahead of time you know you will break even with every product,
>BUT you still need regular people to buy at retail to make a profit.

Well, as I said above, you don't need to issue scrip to get your employees
to buy things. The discount is enough. Using scrip as a regulatory device
is superfluous and silly.

getting back to your previous example example, where 1 trillion dollars
changing hands 6 times results in a 6 trillion dollar economy. . .wouldn't
the same mechanics make it worthwhile for the corp to see the money change
hands as often as possible? I.E., if for some strange reason Ares money
piles up to the top, where it's used more than NuYen, and becomes the standard
of exchange (see SR3 Hardback, Equipment Section), doesn't that inspire
confindence in a company?

Also, who the hell polices this stuff?

"Lone Star. Drop your credstick and put your hands on your hips (and jump to
the right)."

You can argue that corps can lobby for enforcement of such silly laws, but
I rather doubt that the laissez-faire governments of Shadowrun will
bother enforcing the rules of corps that are essentially sovereign anyway.

Sorry, but I fail to see how a corps can benefit from a closed economy. In
all things, growth depends on openness and cooperation. I just don't see
it happening.

/
\ I / J Roberson
- 0 - "Women are from Venus. Men are from Mars.
/ I \ Me? I'm from Earth."
+ --Me, except I'm sure someone else thought of it, too.
Message no. 3
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Money
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 11:49:17 -0400
| We're all pretty confident that any given store we enter in the US will
| accept greenbacks.

It also helps that the bills have (had? -- I don't have any US money
at work) the magical word 'legal tender for all debts public and private'
written on them. ie, it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

- cks
Message no. 4
From: Mr CM Scott <cmsco2@*****.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU>
Subject: Money
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 14:29:28 EST
Fellow runners,

As much as I love ShadowRun there is one critical aspect that always
irritates me greatly, money. Some runs you don't even have a
enough to buy a double choc from your local Stuffer Shack and others
you get just to damn much. Take my last run for example, me and my
chummers had to wipe out what in my opinion was perhaps a moderately
difficult gang with some major Yakuza backing. Sure this was tough
but when you receive two million nuyen a player it doesn't really
matter. One or two of these missions and you're ready to take out
the fraggin yakuza yourself. So watch out how much nuyen ya shell
out.

Anyone currently on the net who wants a chat drop me a letter at
CMSCO2@*****.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU, please do so. If there is anyone out there
in the Latrobe Valley area (Victoria, Australia) and wish to join a new set
of runners please drop me a line.


Iceman
(Rigger/Mechanic extraordinaire)
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Money
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 16:46:12 +1000
Mr CM Scott writes:

> Fellow runners,

Hi there Iceman. Welcome aboard. Another Australian! Great (we're taking
over <evil malicious laughter> :-))

> [Minor gripe on nuyen awarded for runs]

It really depends on your gaming group though, doesn't it? If you run a
nuyen rich game, then it isn't really a hassle. And a lot depends on the
difficulty of the run, no? If it is a simple, basic run, like breaking
someones legs (someone unimportant and undefended), then you wouldn't expect
to get paid much. Breaking into the ziabatsu (sp?) orbitals OTOH... But I
suppose if the payment your group receives wavers from a few thousand into
the millions, then perhaps some runs are being underpaid and others overpaid
(two _million_? Isn't that a /little/ too much? That's the kind of money
you'd be expecting the absolute top notch runners ot get paid, for doing
some really hell raising stuff. But, like I said, depends on gaming style).

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Money
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 16:18:35 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
> It really depends on your gaming group though, doesn't it? If you run a
> nuyen rich game, then it isn't really a hassle. And a lot depends on the
> difficulty of the run, no? If it is a simple, basic run, like breaking
> someones legs (someone unimportant and undefended), then you wouldn't expect
> to get paid much. Breaking into the ziabatsu (sp?) orbitals OTOH... But I
> suppose if the payment your group receives wavers from a few thousand into
> the millions, then perhaps some runs are being underpaid and others overpaid
> (two _million_? Isn't that a /little/ too much? That's the kind of money
> you'd be expecting the absolute top notch runners ot get paid, for doing
> some really hell raising stuff. But, like I said, depends on gaming style).

Exactly... if you start getting the two-million runs, you'll stop getting
the two-thousand runs.
On the other hand... you can have a lot of fun laundering that kind of
money. :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Money
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 10:59:35 +0200
>As much as I love ShadowRun there is one critical aspect that always
>irritates me greatly, money.

Me too. I never seem to have enough of it :)

>Sure this was tough
>but when you receive two million nuyen a player it doesn't really
>matter. One or two of these missions and you're ready to take out
>the fraggin yakuza yourself. So watch out how much nuyen ya shell
>out.

Two million per player would be a bit much I think... Maybe your GM should
keep it at a couple of tens of thousands per player (like, 20-30K) for a
reasonable job, up to maybe a hundred or more for the big leagues...
millions would definitely be too much IMO. What would be better is to keep
payments at reasonable levels, and occassionally throw in something the
players can sell for lots of cash (but _not_ every adventure) -- for
instance, back before FoF, my players found a broken Ares MP Laser in one
adventure, which they decided to repair, sell, and split the profits between
them. I think it netted them around 300,000 nuyen each.
I say this as a GM who tends to pay generously, but still manages to make
one character run out of money at times...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But before all that, we kick off with a bit of culture...
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 8
From: Lyndon Baugh <lyndon@*****.COM>
Subject: Money
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:36:21 GMT
I did some accidental research on survival of physical money in mid
21st century.

In Michael Stackpole's book WOLF AND RAVEN, on the last page of Fair
Game, our narrator gets a small package with some coins as change for
cab fare and etc. (etc. would equal minor spoiler so I won't detail
it). A footnote does say, "Yeah, coins are archaic ..."

More generally, how canonically do people treat novels? (I'm new
here.)

My reaction to novels written from a definite view point are as
accurate and truthful as a first person account from that person would
be. If it's from an unidentified omnicient author viewpoint it is
less convincing to me.

Lyndon the part-time lurker
Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Money
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:38:24 +0100
And verily, did Lyndon Baugh hastily scribble thusly...
|More generally, how canonically do people treat novels? (I'm new
|here.)

They're sometimes used as examples for how the world is, but are viewed
stictly as NON cannon...

Mainly because the writers are always breaking the rules of the game in the
name of a good? plot.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
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Message no. 10
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Money
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 17:06:17 -0600
At 21:36 05/07/98 GMT, you wrote:
>More generally, how canonically do people treat novels? (I'm new
>here.)

Plot is cannon -- FASA uses the novels to further the plot of the game
world, obviously.

Some of the things that the characters do break the rules of the game, so
in that respect, saying "So and so did X in such and such a novel" is NOT
an argument to use about rules on this list :)

-Adam J
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Money
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:37:15 +0100
Lyndon Baugh said on 21:36/5 Jul 98,...

> More generally, how canonically do people treat novels? (I'm new
> here.)
>
> My reaction to novels written from a definite view point are as
> accurate and truthful as a first person account from that person would
> be. If it's from an unidentified omnicient author viewpoint it is
> less convincing to me.

How I view novels depends on how closely the author sticks to
SR's world and game rules. Many books take liberties with what's
possible or accepted standard in SR -- for example Headhunters
(most recent SR novel I read, so it's still kinda fresh in my
memory), where the magicians somehow can only stay astral for
a few minutes instead of the hours we all take for granted, and
they come out pretty tired as well IIRC. Or Burning Bright, where
it's mentioned that you can't astrally project through a wooden
wall. Oh? I'd say that kind of wood is dead material...

Anyway, I feel it's best to not try and quote novels as if they were
source material, even if they're from a first-person (or a false
third-person) perspective. In just about all SR novels I've read,
something didn't fit with one or more sourcebooks...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Money
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:44:48 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-06 05:49:22 EDT, you write:

> Anyway, I feel it's best to not try and quote novels as if they were
> source material, even if they're from a first-person (or a false
> third-person) perspective. In just about all SR novels I've read,
> something didn't fit with one or more sourcebooks...

I don't know if this is the case with any of the Shadowrun authors, but I know
that R.A. Salvatore (the guy who created al of the dark-elf-as-PC madness in
AD&D) purposely puts in at least one thing in every novel that is completely
and totally illegal by the rules, just so no one can point to his books and
say "Drizz't did it! Why can't I?"

Nexx

Further Reading

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