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Message no. 1
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:07:33 +0100
According to Arclight, on Wed, 04 Dec 2002 the word on the street was...

> >Have you ever tried to find out what monwire costs per
> >meter? Not a monowhip. Not the damage it does. A
> >spool of monowire. The kind some sec chief had to
> >cost out for accounting to approve. How much?
>
> AFAICR you can find that in "Corporate Security". And if I hadn't packed
> all my stuff already, I'd look it up. Something like 5¥ per 1m or so ...

I think that's the cost I came up with for the Cyberpunk conversions stuff,
on the basis that it sounded reasonable; however, Man & Machine has the
official price, which is a ludicrous 2,000 nuyen per meter (see pages 95
and 96). Yes, TWO THOUSAND per meter... Here's a quote from page 95:
"monowire can be stretched atop fences" -- sure, you have two hundred
meters of fence around your facility, and want to put three strands of
monowire over it, like people put barbed wire there nowadays. Goodbye, 1.2
million bucks. Now try imagining coils of the stuff...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Je moet knoeien met de riemen die je hebt.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:44:22 -0800 (PST)
--- Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Arclight, on Wed, 04 Dec 2002 the word
> on the street was...
>
> > >Have you ever tried to find out what monwire
> costs per
> > >meter? Not a monowhip. Not the damage it does.
> A
> > >spool of monowire. The kind some sec chief had
> to
> > >cost out for accounting to approve. How much?
> >
> > AFAICR you can find that in "Corporate Security".
> And if I hadn't packed
> > all my stuff already, I'd look it up. Something
> like 5¥ per 1m or so ...
>
> I think that's the cost I came up with for the
> Cyberpunk conversions stuff,
> on the basis that it sounded reasonable; however,
> Man & Machine has the
> official price, which is a ludicrous 2,000 nuyen per
> meter (see pages 95
> and 96). Yes, TWO THOUSAND per meter... Here's a
> quote from page 95:
> "monowire can be stretched atop fences" -- sure, you
> have two hundred
> meters of fence around your facility, and want to
> put three strands of
> monowire over it, like people put barbed wire there
> nowadays. Goodbye, 1.2
> million bucks. Now try imagining coils of the
> stuff...

Someone was extrapolating from the cost of monowhip
it seems. :)

Seriously, I've checked through the Corporate Security
Handbook cover to cover numerous times. They list NO
prices for monowire. The only thing, in fact, for
which they give prices are the things they apparently
assume runners will eventually be trying to buy or
fence.

I use a price of 15¥ per meter for monowire purchased
in bulk with a security/military permit. It has a
S.I. of 5, some legality issues (requires a permit
akin to comercial demolitions equipment), and is a
pain to transport without the proper secondary gear.

Lastly, I question if monowire is rigid enough to
arrange in a coil. IMO, it has to stretched taught
unless you run a mild current through it so it repels
itself. This is how I run monowhips, btw. They are
"live", just enough to have magnetic properties. The
line repels itself slightly. I don't see how they'd
work anything like a whip otherwise.

======Korishinzo
--my players are not big fans of monowhips, thank goodness

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Message no. 3
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:44:56 +0000
In message <02120511073302.00576@***************>, Gurth
<Gurth@******.nl> writes
>I think that's the cost I came up with for the Cyberpunk conversions stuff,
>on the basis that it sounded reasonable; however, Man & Machine has the
>official price, which is a ludicrous 2,000 nuyen per meter (see pages 95
>and 96). Yes, TWO THOUSAND per meter... Here's a quote from page 95:
>"monowire can be stretched atop fences" -- sure, you have two hundred
>meters of fence around your facility, and want to put three strands of
>monowire over it, like people put barbed wire there nowadays. Goodbye, 1.2
>million bucks. Now try imagining coils of the stuff...
>
Ignoring the other points about essence because I was being overly
pedantic and I don't think I was actually disagreeing with anyone (not
that it normally stops me arguing...) but I think that a lot of the
prices in SR are whacked anyway. Look at cell-phones - even the massive
re-adjustment between SR versions has failed to keep up with RL
technology/prices (heh - anyone remember SR1 cell phones' weight?). The
whole gear section revolves around game mechanics - if it's not
computing, communications, commuting or combat it's not in (and as with
all RPGs there's a massive weighting to combat (both rules and gear)).

There's also some badly skewed economics - especially with cyberware.
Just how many Smartgun links are produced every year to bring the cost
down to Y2500 when compared to the UBIQUITOUS datajack (at only Y1k) and
a radio /receiver/ at Y3700. Every source I've seen indicates that
military grunts don't get cybered (that's why smartgoggles were
invented) so who the hell buys them?

--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:56:01 -0700
"pedantic"

Okay, be honest, who else had to look it up?
To be overly concerned with rules and book learning, you get 2 karma points
for a good use of language, thank you for expanding my mind by one word
today. Now I just have to try and not forget it.

Pedantic, pedantic, pedantic

Thanks
Message no. 5
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:29:08 +0100
According to Paul Squires, on Thu, 05 Dec 2002 the word on the street was...

> Ignoring the other points about essence because I was being overly
> pedantic and I don't think I was actually disagreeing with anyone (not
> that it normally stops me arguing...) but I think that a lot of the
> prices in SR are whacked anyway.

This, as I've said before, is most likely because FASA set prices for a lot
of stuff based on what PCs get paid rather than basing what PCs are paid on
what stuff costs. Add in some wild-assed guesswork for gear of which nobody
at FASA knew real-world prices, and I have a feeling you'll get very close
to equipment prices in SR...

> Look at cell-phones - even the massive
> re-adjustment between SR versions has failed to keep up with RL
> technology/prices (heh - anyone remember SR1 cell phones' weight?).

You have to keep in mind late-1980s cellphones here, though. For those,
Conceal 6 and 1 kg seems pretty high-tech. OTOH, by today's standards,
Conceal 12 and 0.1 kg almost seem too low and too high, respectively.

> The
> whole gear section revolves around game mechanics - if it's not
> computing, communications, commuting or combat it's not in (and as with
> all RPGs there's a massive weighting to combat (both rules and gear)).

The reasons that RPGs have lengthy combat rules are because RPGs evolved
from wargames (which obviously have lengthy combat rules) and also because
combat is a situation where you can reasonably predict what's going to
happen and where it's important to players that the outcome is
well-established and fair. In social situations, though, there are many
more variables at play that will affect the outcome, so writing rules is
much harder -- not to mention the players would _very_ quickly get bored
with gameplay like:

Player: "I want to try and negotiate with the seoulpa ring member over
whether he'll release the mafia don's daughter they're holding hostage. I
try to come across as being on their side, you know, to make them trust me
more easily."
GM: "Roll your Negotiation skill, target number ... *starts mumbling to
self while checking tables, like a good GM does* ... Negotiating Over
Hostage Release: base target number is 8, Hostagetakers Are Seoulpa Ring
Members: +2, Players Work For Mafia: -1, Hostage Is Female: -1,
Hostagetakers Have Ace Up Their Sleeve: +1 to +4 ... uhh... yeah, that's
worth about a +3, Players Trying To Be Friendly: -2. Yeah, that's about
it... Your target number is a 9."
Player: "That's 5 dice from my Negotiation skill, plus I'll add another
three from my Stressful Social Situations pool. *rolls the dice* I got two
successes."
GM: The seoulpa ring guy rolls against your Willpower to resist your
negotiation attempt, and *rolls* ouch -- gets no successes at all! He hands
over the don's daughter and wishes you good luck with her."

:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Je moet knoeien met de riemen die je hebt.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:13:14 +0100
According to Ice Heart, on Thu, 05 Dec 2002 the word on the street was...

> Someone was extrapolating from the cost of monowhip
> it seems. :)

Funnily enough, that's the exact same conclusion I drew when I first saw
that price :) I figure FASA went with it partly so as no-one would go, "But
if a meter of monowire costs <insert reasonable price here>, then why is a
mono_whip_ a few hundred times as expensive?"

> Seriously, I've checked through the Corporate Security
> Handbook cover to cover numerous times. They list NO
> prices for monowire. The only thing, in fact, for
> which they give prices are the things they apparently
> assume runners will eventually be trying to buy or
> fence.

With the sole exception of the NAGRL, that has always been the case in SR,
ever since the first-edition main rules -- and it's one of the reasons why
I like CP2020 :)

> I use a price of 15¥ per meter for monowire purchased
> in bulk with a security/military permit. It has a
> S.I. of 5, some legality issues (requires a permit
> akin to comercial demolitions equipment), and is a
> pain to transport without the proper secondary gear.

Sounds good enough to me. Given the official price in M&M, it's probably
easiest to just divide the price there by 100 or 500 or something, and also
lower its Availability (which is about the same as for a monowhip).

> Lastly, I question if monowire is rigid enough to
> arrange in a coil.

Probably not, at least without a system of supports or something. OTOH, if
you were to take a rod and add arms around it like a spiral staircase, you
could run monowire around the outside to form coils. Since the wire weighs
next to nothing anyway, the supports wouldn't need to be very strong, heavy
or thick either.

> IMO, it has to stretched taught
> unless you run a mild current through it so it repels
> itself. This is how I run monowhips, btw. They are
> "live", just enough to have magnetic properties. The
> line repels itself slightly. I don't see how they'd
> work anything like a whip otherwise.

They have a weight at the end (check the illo in SR1 :) so that means you
can swing them. Not like a proper whip, but at least well enough -- given a
little practice -- to hurt someone. Quite possibly yourself.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Je moet knoeien met de riemen die je hebt.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 18:45:19 +0000
At 09:44 AM 5/12/2002 -0800, Korishinzo wrote:
>I use a price of 15¥ per meter for monowire purchased
>in bulk with a security/military permit. It has a
>S.I. of 5, some legality issues (requires a permit
>akin to comercial demolitions equipment), and is a
>pain to transport without the proper secondary gear.

I charge a little more (although with a lower S.I. (4)) I put it at 200¥
per meter if you buy it by that length, or 10,000¥ for a 1km spool.
Looking at how much it costs at the moment to create a buckytube less than
1 micron long I can't see it being much cheaper than that. But making a
single, very long buckytube is a lot cheaper than making several shorter
ones (hence the bulk discount.)

>Lastly, I question if monowire is rigid enough to
>arrange in a coil. IMO, it has to stretched taught
>unless you run a mild current through it so it repels
>itself. This is how I run monowhips, btw. They are
>"live", just enough to have magnetic properties. The
>line repels itself slightly. I don't see how they'd
>work anything like a whip otherwise.

If high density ceramics or industrial diamond form the spool on which the
monowire is wound it shouldn't be a problem, I like the charge idea though.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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GCC0.2: y75>?.uk[NN] G87 S@:@@[SR] B+++ f+ RM(RR) rm++ rr++ l++(--) m- w
s+(+++) GM+++(-) A GS+(-) h++ LA+++ CG--- F c+

"Yes Kate, I want you to become a prostitute."
Blackadder II (Bells)
Message no. 8
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:46:50 +0000
In message
<3E7EE9F3DC166348AE10F612A0EE73D90EAD87@************.utcnet.com>, Mike
Amos <mamos@*****.com> writes
>"pedantic"
>
>Okay, be honest, who else had to look it up?
>To be overly concerned with rules and book learning, you get 2 karma points
>for a good use of language, thank you for expanding my mind by one word
>today. Now I just have to try and not forget it.
>
>Pedantic, pedantic, pedantic
>
>Thanks

In any self description it's the first word that springs to mind (well,
unless you count "bloody-minded" as a single word)

And given Gurth's wonderful negotiation example I think he understands
;)

The point about RPGs and combat is well made - we all (in all systems)
seem to be trying to escape from the dominance of combat in gaming and
failing miserably (my *other* game mailing list goes through this every
few months. If anyone understands the reference "naked dwarf" I've said
too much).
--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: belgand@**************.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 13:55:10 -0600
At 12/5/2002 11:44 AM, you wrote:
The whole gear section revolves around game mechanics - if it's not
computing, communications, commuting or combat it's not in (and as with all
RPGs there's a massive weighting to combat (both rules and gear)).

I guess otherwise you end up with Rifts. Ignoring the fact that the rules
seem to change on a whim (auto-fire anyone?) and everything get
increasingly out of control and overpowered in each new release just so it
can be more powerful than the last it also tends to have only the items you
don't want. I don't have the book right in front of me, but I remember it
being easier to find the price for a plastic statue of Elvis, a t-shirt
(damaged), t-shirt(undamaged), t-shirt (concert, non-metal), etc. than it
is to find things like razorwire. Sure they focus on game stuff a great
deal too, but they also import a ton of largely-useless (S.D.C.) melee
weapons from the fantasy books.

--
Mark M. Smith
belgand@**************.com

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Message no. 10
From: belgand@**************.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:02:19 -0600
At 12/5/2002 12:29 PM, you wrote:
>According to Paul Squires, on Thu, 05 Dec 2002 the word on the street was...
> In social situations, though, there are many
>more variables at play that will affect the outcome, so writing rules is
>much harder -- not to mention the players would _very_ quickly get bored
>with gameplay like:

<snip>

>GM: The seoulpa ring guy rolls against your Willpower to resist your
>negotiation attempt, and *rolls* ouch -- gets no successes at all! He hands
>over the don's daughter and wishes you good luck with her."

Hey, you forget to add in the bonuses from my Wired Tongue, Rhetori-Link 2,
and Pheremone Stimulators! I relaly should have had *rolls some dice,
mutters a bit* 5 successes and I get a second round of talking because I
was using my Debate:Speed-Talker (a real creature in competitive debate...
scary and fast like debate ninja but a lot louder). Occording to *this*
chart this combined with my Mojo rating means he offers me his own daughter
two and all three of us head into the back.

Better break out the fishbowl of dice to resolve this bit.


--
Mark M. Smith
belgand@**************.com

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Message no. 11
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:36:55 -0800 (PST)
--- "Mark M. Smith" <belgand@**************.com>
wrote:
> At 12/5/2002 11:44 AM, you wrote:
> The whole gear section revolves around game
> mechanics - if it's not
> computing, communications, commuting or combat it's
> not in (and as with all
> RPGs there's a massive weighting to combat (both
> rules and gear)).
>
> I guess otherwise you end up with Rifts. Ignoring
> the fact that the rules
> seem to change on a whim (auto-fire anyone?) and
> everything get
> increasingly out of control and overpowered in each
> new release just so it
> can be more powerful than the last it also tends to
> have only the items you
> don't want. I don't have the book right in front of
> me, but I remember it
> being easier to find the price for a plastic statue
> of Elvis, a t-shirt
> (damaged), t-shirt(undamaged), t-shirt (concert,
> non-metal), etc. than it
> is to find things like razorwire. Sure they focus on
> game stuff a great
> deal too, but they also import a ton of
> largely-useless (S.D.C.) melee
> weapons from the fantasy books.

As one of my players said this morning while we were
driving to work, "Stats are the metaphysics of the
gaming universe, and the characters CANNOT know them."
Every single weapon of a give sort (swords, knives,
shotguns, light pistols, rockets) should have
identical stats for Range, Damage, etc. Weapon mods
are allowable, from extended clips to laser sights.

Here is the way I think it should be done. Give every
weapon you want to put in a source book a short
paragraph of description, with a picture if you have
an artist on hand. Describe any mods the weapon has
from norm, and identify its template. A katana could
be a Sword, with a Sharpness mod. That is all the
descrption would have to say about stats. Everyone
knows that all Swords are Conc. 5, Wt. 2, Dam Str+2 M
(or something). They could consult the back of the
book to find that the Sharpness mod adds +1 to the
attack power. The rest of the Katana description
could be the Price/Availability and flavor text.
"Japanese weapon smiths use the lastest forging and
milling techniques in downtown Chiba to accurately
recreate the work of swordmakers from centuries past.
Folding compsite steel produces a flexible,
dangerously sharp, slightly brittle weapon prized both
for its beauty and its lethality. Etc, etc, etc." A
picture of a katana could garce the sidebar. Maybe a
pair of Shadowtalk quotes from some Sammie named
Kensai and another named Swordbreaker. You could fill
book after book like this, and people would buy them.
I have found that, deprived of stats, players tend to
pic gear that "looks cool" or "sounds cool". Well,
hell, isn't that the point. After all, their
character doesn't even know what 9M means. "It makes
a igger hole in my target than that pea shooter Bob is
using." Or, if they are a ballistics nut, "It's
increased weight and size allow it to chamber heavy,
large caliber rounds with high grain count without
warping the barrel or breaking the user's wrist. It
has an order of magnitude greater stopping power, but
overpenetration is a problem." They could be talking
about a Predator or a Warhawk or a Savalette.

This applies to other gear than weapons. All, and I
mean ALL armor could be broken into 9 categories.
Civilian, Security, and Military...Light, Medium,
Heavy. Done. The rest could be flavor text and mods.
Enviroseal, Extra Plates, Sturdy Weave, Looks <one
category lower>, Concealed Armor,...blah, blah, blah.
The rest is flavor text, cost, and maybe a picture.

And I may not need prices for a microwave, but I'd
love a description of a kitchen in the 2060s. Or a
detailed breakdown of a trid/telecom. Bring the great
books like Shadowbeat, NAGTRL, and Shadowtech into
SR3. Show the other side of life in 2060. Not with
more stats. We need LESS stats. Give me a book I can
hand my players and say, "That is what tech will look
like/"feel" like in 2060." I was looking through one
of my SR1 hardcovers the other day and recalled one of
the NEATEST things it had. A picture of a chipjack
and some <blank>softs. To scale. And a drawing of a
smartlink induction pad in a hand. That did more for
my players than all the stats in all the books
combined. "Oh, so people DO have obvious holes in
their head in SR!" Yep. All those datajacks and
chipjacks and carefully cropped hairdos are visible.
An accepted part of daily life. Blew their minds.
Changed the whol;e way they visualized the game world.
The only person who needs to know what 9M and Str +1
S mean is me, the GM. And the less I have to look
those numbers up the better. The more times I can
open a book and say, "The copr goon is holding that
<pointing>.", the better the game is. From all the
way back in the days of D&D, game designers have
apparently misunderstood what really makes the games
come alive. Less stats and more flavor. Pictures of
critters, pictures of gear, pictures of places...and
vivid, exciting descriptions. Heck, when I run AD&D,
I use about 10 or 12 sets of monster stats. Period.
The rest is in the description. Swords do about D8
damage, whether they are "wickedly curved falchions
with a serated back edge" or "a slender elven
broadsword with scalloped edges and sharpened
quillions". I have been systematically doing this in
SR as well. Character generation takes long enough
for some newbie without forcing them to agonize of
incremental gear differences for 20 minutes per item.
You might be surprised how many players brought you a
character with a collection of Shield Wall and Mara
Mercurial T-shirts listed on their sheet if prices
were included in their list of available gear. Platic
Elvis statues are only useless because you haven't
given one to an annoying/delightfully clever player.
Lock such a player's character in a cell with only
their underwear and that Plastic Elvis, and see what
comes up. You might have to raise the price.

Healine in Seattle Weekly:

"Miraculous Statue Defends Convict In New Appeal: The
King Studied Law in Hell!"

GM: '*sigh* Now I know why he picked up ventriloquism
at char gen.' ;D

======Korishinzo
--starring as the voice of Plastic Elvis in new Disney Trid

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Message no. 12
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:52:23 +0000
At 12:36 PM 5/12/2002 -0800, Korishinzo wrote:
> The only person who needs to know what 9M and Str +1
>S mean is me, the GM. And the less I have to look
>those numbers up the better.

On the other hand (and an opportunity for me to gloat a little) in my group
I need to know the numbers, but I'm not the only one... With five
reasonably regular players; three of whom are our GMs (Yes I did just say
three, yes I know I've always said 2, but one of the players has now
brought his own creativity to the mix)
With three of us GMs and one of the players being... how to put this
delicately... less than enthusiastic about "making a fool out of [herself]"
we embellish the numbers, we resolve the attacks and then describe the
effects (not necessarily the GM, I can throw out a moderate wound and let
the players describe it. (although we have to stop quite a lot... "Do you
have to!"... She's a little squeemish :-)

I like the pictures and the shadowtalk, I wouldn't do without it but my
players have limits and as I'm sure of said before but I can't think where...
When it comes to initiative the players faces drop so much more when I say
"...and the bad guy's on 26." rather than trying to describe how fast he's
moving.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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"Yes Kate, I want you to become a prostitute."
Blackadder II (Bells)
Message no. 13
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 05:39:54 +0000 (GMT)
--- Mike Amos <mamos@*****.com> wrote: > "pedantic"
>
> Okay, be honest, who else had to look it up?
> To be overly concerned with rules and book learning,
> you get 2 karma points
> for a good use of language, thank you for expanding
> my mind by one word
> today. Now I just have to try and not forget it.
>
> Pedantic, pedantic, pedantic
>
> Thanks

Mike obviously wasn't around during the era of
Pedantic Wo/Man. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:49:21 +0100
According to Ice Heart, on Thu, 05 Dec 2002 the word on the street was...

> As one of my players said this morning while we were
> driving to work, "Stats are the metaphysics of the
> gaming universe, and the characters CANNOT know them."

Depends on the game... I mean, if you're playing Over The Edge, I can see a
situation where someone[1] says to your character, "So I hear you have Kick
People's Butts at three dee six? Cool, wish I could do that in real
life..." ;)

[1] Probably you yourself, at a certain point in one of the built-in
campaigns...

> Here is the way I think it should be done. Give every
> weapon you want to put in a source book a short
> paragraph of description, with a picture if you have
> an artist on hand. Describe any mods the weapon has
> from norm, and identify its template. A katana could
> be a Sword, with a Sharpness mod. That is all the
> descrption would have to say about stats. Everyone
> knows that all Swords are Conc. 5, Wt. 2, Dam Str+2 M
> (or something). They could consult the back of the
> book to find that the Sharpness mod adds +1 to the
> attack power.

It can be argued that this is already the case, but that it's written down
as a katana causing (Str+3)M damage for ease of reference. I know I'd
quickly get mildly frustrated if I had to look up five different things
every time someone wanted to buy a gun, because they didn't want an Ares
Predator II but a heavy pistol with smartlink (internal), +5 rounds in the
clip and +0.5 kg weight (or whatever).

> This applies to other gear than weapons. All, and I
> mean ALL armor could be broken into 9 categories.
> Civilian, Security, and Military...Light, Medium,
> Heavy. Done. The rest could be flavor text and mods.
> Enviroseal, Extra Plates, Sturdy Weave, Looks <one
> category lower>, Concealed Armor,...blah, blah, blah.
> The rest is flavor text, cost, and maybe a picture.

Maybe what you need is a book set up like Ultramodern Firearms or the
Vehicle Sourcebook, both for the now-unsupported Millennium's End. These
basically describe the weapons and vehicles in RL terms, with a picture of
nearly all items described, and only have tables of stats in the back of
the book. Additionally, they have tables where you can compare important
features of the real thing (including ones that have no impact on the game
at all), allowing you to pick the one you like best, or that suits your
purposes best. Using the pictures in the older sourcebooks as a starting
point, it should be possible to set up similar tables for SR if you really
want to.

> We need LESS stats.

Phoenix Command lovers might disagree with you on that one ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Je moet knoeien met de riemen die je hebt.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Monowire (was Re: Game Mechanics and Flavor Text)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:37:28 +0100
According to Mark M. Smith, on Thu, 05 Dec 2002 the word on the street was...

> Hey, you forget to add in the bonuses from my Wired Tongue, Rhetori-Link
> 2, and Pheremone Stimulators!

Yeah, it was a quick example, not an exhaustive one :) But it seems I got
the point across, so it was probably a good example nonetheless.

> I relaly should have had *rolls some dice,
> mutters a bit* 5 successes and I get a second round of talking because I
> was using my Debate:Speed-Talker (a real creature in competitive
> debate... scary and fast like debate ninja but a lot louder).

I prefer the feng-shui ninja :)

> Better break out the fishbowl of dice to resolve this bit.

You wouldn't need many more dice than for combat, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Je moet knoeien met de riemen die je hebt.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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