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Message no. 1
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:24:55 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-08 09:53:32 EDT, drekhead@***.NET writes:

> > Okay then, why do Trolls and Orks (and their subset groups) have to
> > lower their Charisma then? It is for these reasons I was referring
> > to most directly.
>
> I thought it to reflect metahuman prejudice.
>
Again, a statement. Spirits don't give a flagrant shread of interest in
"Prejudice" as defined by the "flesh types." Come on folks, look to a
direction beyond the physical for once.
-Keith
Message no. 2
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:38:46 +1000
Keith wrote:
> > > Okay then, why do Trolls and Orks (and their subset groups) have to
> > > lower their Charisma then? It is for these reasons I was referring
> > > to most directly.
> >
> > I thought it to reflect metahuman prejudice.
> >
> Again, a statement. Spirits don't give a flagrant shread of interest in
> "Prejudice" as defined by the "flesh types." Come on folks, look
to a
> direction beyond the physical for once.

Backing up Keith here, if it was a physical stat, why does in determine your
Strength in Astral Space?

NightRain.

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EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 3
From: Sebastion Wires <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:21:56 PDT
>Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
>Keith wrote:
>> > > Okay then, why do Trolls and Orks (and their subset groups) have
to
>> > > lower their Charisma then? It is for these reasons I was
referring
>> > > to most directly.
>> >
>> > I thought it to reflect metahuman prejudice.
>> >
>> Again, a statement. Spirits don't give a flagrant shread of interest
in
>> "Prejudice" as defined by the "flesh types." Come on folks,
look to
a
>> direction beyond the physical for once.
>
>Backing up Keith here, if it was a physical stat, why does in determine
your
>Strength in Astral Space?
>
>NightRain.

Ok- meat world prejudice results in a difficult upbringing, poor
childhood, and POOR SELF IMAGE. Poor self image results in a lack of
social sophistication, assertiveness (as opposed to rudeness), and
confidence. That translates into a lessened Charisma. Metatypes that
are less discriminated against, and not considered ugly, have a better
self image and more social expieience. Elves get a bonusbecause they
are genaerally admired- much to manyplayers chagrin, Iv'e noticed!
There are exceptions in all metatypes- elves from Japan might have
generally lower charisma's (than other elves) (or not- they are clearly
not AS bad as "lesser" metas, orso thier ego would tell them), Trolls
from the german troll kingdom might have higher charisma's. That would
work out with stat variation, but on average, the "ugly's" would have a
harder time learnig to project themselves well.

Mongoose- elf with 4 charisma (damn wired reflexes lead to premature...
well, that between me and her)

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Message no. 4
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:39:35 +1000
Mongoose wrote:
> >Backing up Keith here, if it was a physical stat, why does in determine
> your
> >Strength in Astral Space?
> >
> >NightRain.
>
> Ok- meat world prejudice results in a difficult upbringing, poor
> childhood, and POOR SELF IMAGE. Poor self image results in a lack of
> social sophistication, assertiveness (as opposed to rudeness), and
> confidence. That translates into a lessened Charisma. Metatypes that
> are less discriminated against, and not considered ugly, have a better
> self image and more social expieience. Elves get a bonusbecause they
> are genaerally admired- much to manyplayers chagrin, Iv'e noticed!
> There are exceptions in all metatypes- elves from Japan might have
> generally lower charisma's (than other elves) (or not- they are clearly
> not AS bad as "lesser" metas, orso thier ego would tell them), Trolls
> from the german troll kingdom might have higher charisma's. That would
> work out with stat variation, but on average, the "ugly's" would have a
> harder time learnig to project themselves well.

Well I can see the point of what you are saying, but there are two things.
1) is that you have just said how the physical appearance determines your
charisma (a mental stat) and 2) Although elves do get treated better than
other metas, they are still mis-treated compared to humans. Using your line
of thought, how does this become a Charisma bonus?

NightRain.

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| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 5
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:20:14 +0000
>
> Well I can see the point of what you are saying, but there are two things.
> 1) is that you have just said how the physical appearance determines your
> charisma (a mental stat) and 2) Although elves do get treated better than
> other metas, they are still mis-treated compared to humans. Using your line
> of thought, how does this become a Charisma bonus?
>

Leaving other countries aside, most younger humans in the Seattle
area that aren't humanis or rabid racists tend to hero-worship elves.
(Because Elves Are Cool(tm) :) ) this was talked about in Harlequin
a bit, and has been sprinkled throughout the literature. You don't
hear about "Ork posers" or "Troll Posers" or "Dwarven
posers", and
even "human posers" are much more rare than "elf posers".

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 6
From: Sebastion Wires <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 05:22:05 PDT
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
>Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
>Mongoose wrote:
>> >Backing up Keith here, if it was a physical stat, why does in
determine
>> your
>> >Strength in Astral Space?
>> >
>> >NightRain.
>>
>> Ok- meat world prejudice results in a difficult upbringing, poor
>> childhood, and POOR SELF IMAGE. Poor self image results in a lack of
>> social sophistication, assertiveness (as opposed to rudeness), and
>> confidence. That translates into a lessened Charisma. Metatypes
that
>> are less discriminated against, and not considered ugly, have a
better
>> self image and more social expieience. Elves get a bonusbecause they
>> are genaerally admired- much to manyplayers chagrin, Iv'e noticed!
>> There are exceptions in all metatypes- elves from Japan might have
>> generally lower charisma's (than other elves) (or not- they are
clearly
>> not AS bad as "lesser" metas, orso thier ego would tell them), Trolls
>> from the german troll kingdom might have higher charisma's. That
would
>> work out with stat variation, but on average, the "ugly's" would have
a
>> harder time learnig to project themselves well.
>
>Well I can see the point of what you are saying, but there are two
things.
>1) is that you have just said how the physical appearance determines
your
>charisma (a mental stat)

No, I said SELF IMAGE has a strong impact on charisma, and is partly
determined by apearance. perhaps Ichose a poor section to quote, or
didyousnip what I responded to? The psycological effects can be offset
by enviromental upbringing, but not totally, at least not in the sixth
world yet. In Earth Dawn, Trolls have fierce cultural pride, and no
Charisma penalty. Dwarves do- they tend to be nose to the grindstone
types with little time for social nicety.


2) Although elves do get treated better than
>other metas, they are still mis-treated compared to humans. Using your
line
>of thought, how does this become a Charisma bonus?
>
Cultural pride, arrogance, and a perception of admiration all play a
roll. Yes, they are mistreated, but they've rallied politically around
thier opression, established a culture, nations, and language, and have
posuer admirers and clebrities. I'm not saying this is a be-all
explanation- Its obviously partially "magical" as well.
Might as well ask "why" a dwarf has more willpower, and a troll
less. Or one person magical potential and the next none.



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Message no. 7
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:36:41 +1000
The Swift One scribed thusly:
> > Well I can see the point of what you are saying, but there are two
things.
> > 1) is that you have just said how the physical appearance determines your
> > charisma (a mental stat) and 2) Although elves do get treated better than
> > other metas, they are still mis-treated compared to humans. Using your
line
> > of thought, how does this become a Charisma bonus?
> >
>
> Leaving other countries aside, most younger humans in the Seattle
> area that aren't humanis or rabid racists tend to hero-worship elves.
> (Because Elves Are Cool(tm) :) ) this was talked about in Harlequin
> a bit, and has been sprinkled throughout the literature. You don't
> hear about "Ork posers" or "Troll Posers" or "Dwarven
posers", and
> even "human posers" are much more rare than "elf posers".

But the charisma stat bonus is universal. Elves even get it in Japan, and
there are no elf posers there. Also what about the fact that Seattle is made
of a lot more people than 'younger humans'.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:41:10 +0000
> > Leaving other countries aside, most younger humans in the Seattle
> > area that aren't humanis or rabid racists tend to hero-worship elves.
> > (Because Elves Are Cool(tm) :) ) this was talked about in Harlequin
> > a bit, and has been sprinkled throughout the literature. You don't
> > hear about "Ork posers" or "Troll Posers" or "Dwarven
posers", and
> > even "human posers" are much more rare than "elf posers".
>
> But the charisma stat bonus is universal. Elves even get it in Japan, and
> there are no elf posers there. Also what about the fact that Seattle is made
> of a lot more people than 'younger humans'.

Seattle: Well, it comes down to this. Old people distrust you, the
younger generation adores you. Your self image is *just fine*. The
old fogeys are just jealous, and you've got the admiring hordes to
prove it.

Universal: Uh....well....there's the fact that...no, that doesn't
work. I know! How about the...no, that's not right.....

Okay, so the universal deal just doesn't work. Maybe elves are born
with an innate arrogance that guarantees them a better self-image and
self-confidence regardless of outside influences? Maybe this is all
a blind rationalization of someone saying "elves look nifty, let's
give them a +2 Charisma"?

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 9
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: MORE Charisma (was:Re: Elves)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:28:48 -0400
> > > Leaving other countries aside, most younger humans in the Seattle
> > > area that aren't humanis or rabid racists tend to hero-worship elves.
> > > (Because Elves Are Cool(tm) :) ) this was talked about in Harlequin
> > > a bit, and has been sprinkled throughout the literature. You don't
> > > hear about "Ork posers" or "Troll Posers" or
"Dwarven posers", and
> > > even "human posers" are much more rare than "elf
posers".
> >
> > But the charisma stat bonus is universal. Elves even get it in Japan, and
> > there are no elf posers there. Also what about the fact that Seattle is made
> > of a lot more people than 'younger humans'.
>
> Seattle: Well, it comes down to this. Old people distrust you, the
> younger generation adores you. Your self image is *just fine*. The
> old fogeys are just jealous, and you've got the admiring hordes to
> prove it.
>
> Universal: Uh....well....there's the fact that...no, that doesn't
> work. I know! How about the...no, that's not right.....
>
> Okay, so the universal deal just doesn't work. Maybe elves are born
> with an innate arrogance that guarantees them a better self-image and
> self-confidence regardless of outside influences? Maybe this is all
> a blind rationalization of someone saying "elves look nifty, let's
> give them a +2 Charisma"?
>
Well, would an elf still get the +2 bonus if he or she had plastic surgery
to look non-elf? If so, then we can assume that charisma far more internal
than external, i.e. physical appearance is not the most important element.

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