Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Rob Siemborski <robsiemb@******.ORG>
Subject: More Matrix 2.0 Utility Qualms...
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:53:50 -0400
In my continuing quest to write this matrix 2.0 program calculator I've
had to do extensive checking of my work, and to do that I've been using
the programs that are listed in the hacker house section of VR2.

Everything is working out great and I've found several problems with what
I was doing (and learned how to write these programs correctly for the
first time as well), however one program has me stuck, and I worked it out
by hand and it looks like it's an error in the book. Here's my work, if
someone could check it and get back to me so I know that I'm not crazy,
I'd appreicate it.

The program is Hand Of Doom, according to the stats it is:

Attack-10D, Targeting, Skulk (stealth)-6, optimization, squeeze.

That means that it's base size (no options) is

10 * 10 * 5, or 500

Now, Adding in +2 for targeting, +6 for the stealth, and +1 for squeeze
(this is to find the design size):

19 * 19 * 5 = 1805

And we double that because of the optimization:

1805 * 2 = 3610. If you multiply this by the appropriate cost modifier
you get the price in the book, so this design size is the one they have.

However, the actual size is something different. Squeeze, as stated on
page 104: "The squeeze rating modifier affects the utility's design size
only, not it's actual size."

So we have to recompute the base size, this time with +2 for targeting and
+6 for stealth (no +1 for squeeze).

18 * 18 * 5 = 1620

If you account for the optimization, by dividing by 2 you get

1620 / 2 = 810 -> This is the actual size of the program.

However, in VR2 it lists the actual size as 901 (450 for uploads).

The only way that I have been able to get this is by including the +1 for
squeeze when I compute the actual size:

19 * 19 * 5 = 1805

1805 / 2 is ALMOST equal to 901 (it's 902.5, but it's close enough).

SO:

First, is my math right.
Second, which example do I follow, the one where squeeze isn't included in
the actual size or the one where it is (the latter doesn't make much sense
to me because squeeze is supposed to reduce the actual size, but...)

Thanks for your help!

- Rob -

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rob Siemborski * http://www.bergen.org/~robsiemb (Has PGP Public Key)
Wow! Web Wonders <> http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Wow/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----
Version: 3.1
GCS/IT/CM d- s+:- a--- C++++>$ UI++>++++ UA++ UL>+ UB+$>++++ UV$>++++
P+$>+++$ L+ E---- W+++ N+ o K- w+(++++)>+++++$ O-(+) M--(+)>! Y PGP++
t+ 5+++>++++ !X R++>+++ tv(+) b++(+++) DI+ D++(+++) G e- h+>++ r y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 2
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: More Matrix 2.0 Utility Qualms...
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:05:19 +1000
> First, is my math right.
> Second, which example do I follow, the one where squeeze isn't included
in
> the actual size or the one where it is (the latter doesn't make much
sense
> to me because squeeze is supposed to reduce the actual size, but...)

I would have to say that you use the rule that says it does not count.
FASA has a nasty habit of saying one thing in the rules, and another in the
summary or whatever, and they always say that the rule is right. I guess
that it would apply in this case as well.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: More Matrix 2.0 Utility Qualms...
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:43:17 +0100
Rob Siemborski said on 20:53/26 May 97...

> In my continuing quest to write this matrix 2.0 program calculator I've
> had to do extensive checking of my work, and to do that I've been using
> the programs that are listed in the hacker house section of VR2.
[snip]
> Attack-10D, Targeting, Skulk (stealth)-6, optimization, squeeze.
>
> That means that it's base size (no options) is
[snip math]
> 1805 * 2 = 3610. If you multiply this by the appropriate cost modifier
> you get the price in the book, so this design size is the one they have.

This is the size a little program size calculator I once wrote gives too.
Design size 3610 Mp, actual size 902.5 Mp. (Incidentally, the base time
needed to write this little proggy is 3610 days... Even on a mainframe
it'd take a single character 722 days to write, assuming 1 success :)

> However, the actual size is something different. Squeeze, as stated on
> page 104: "The squeeze rating modifier affects the utility's design size
> only, not it's actual size."

A very weird line, that. My guess is that with "design size" the book
means the file size you write, not what's called the "design size" in
other parts of the book. With this program, the design size as meant by
Squeeze would (IMO) be 451.25 Mp, namely 902.5 / 2.
Actual size in this text, I think, means the full 902.5 Mp the program
takes up when it's decompressed for use.

> So we have to recompute the base size, this time with +2 for targeting and
> +6 for stealth (no +1 for squeeze).
[snip a bit more math]
> 1805 / 2 is ALMOST equal to 901 (it's 902.5, but it's close enough).

I think your first set of calculations is correct, and the line under
Squeeze is poorly written.

> SO:
>
> First, is my math right.

Looks like it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And everytime it rains...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 4
From: tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: More Matrix 2.0 Utility Qualms...
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:57:06 -1000
>>AttackD-10
>Would take 722 days to program.
p.100 of VR2.0 says that the time to program (base) is = to Rating x 2
in days. 20 days base for your example.

>Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>"Black IC!!! You bloated code! You sick little program! I will DELETE
YOU!!!!"
Message no. 5
From: Rob Siemborski <robsiemb@******.ORG>
Subject: Re: More Matrix 2.0 Utility Qualms...
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:13:13 -0400
On Tue, 27 May 1997, tom Cone wrote:

> >>AttackD-10
> >Would take 722 days to program.
> p.100 of VR2.0 says that the time to program (base) is = to Rating x 2
> in days. 20 days base for your example.

Whoops! I checked this (I thought it looked wrong) and if you read
carefully it's the program's [design] SIZE and not the rating that is
doubled to find the base time.

- Rob -

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rob Siemborski * http://www.bergen.org/~robsiemb (Has PGP Public Key)
Wow! Web Wonders <> http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Wow/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----
Version: 3.1
GCS/IT/CM d- s+:- a--- C++++>$ UI++>++++ UA++ UL>+ UB+$>++++ UV$>++++
P+$>+++$ L+ E---- W+++ N+ o K- w+(++++)>+++++$ O-(+) M--(+)>! Y PGP++
t+ 5+++>++++ !X R++>+++ tv(+) b++(+++) DI+ D++(+++) G e- h+>++ r y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 6
From: tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: More Matrix 2.0 Utility Qualms...
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 02:01:09 -1000
>Whoops! I checked this...
Thanks<grumble>. I have said before that I'm not infallible. I still
find it annoying and more than a little, well, stupid, to have a design
take that long to create, but since I avg about 7 success, and I get to
divvy by that number...not bad no matter how I slice it. I'm a little
ticked I didn't notice, but I really do appreciate the help.

>Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>"Black IC!!! You bloated code! You sick little program! I will DELETE
YOU!!!!"
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: More Matrix 2.0 Utility Qualms...
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:54:09 +0100
tom Cone said on 0:57/27 May 97...

> >>AttackD-10
> >Would take 722 days to program.
> p.100 of VR2.0 says that the time to program (base) is = to Rating x 2
> in days. 20 days base for your example.

Nope, it says the _size_ of the program multiplied by 2.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And everytime it rains...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about More Matrix 2.0 Utility Qualms..., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!