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Message no. 1
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: More Metahumans
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 22:27:49 -0700
Personally I favor the More Metahumans rule. IMHO the standard rules make it
too difficult ot make an metahuman character who is as effective as a human.
You want proof, look at the Decker and Elven Decker Archetypes in the rulebook.
Now tell me which you would rather play stat wise.

However, I would think twice about using both the More Metahumans and Allergy
rules. That would allow you to make a more metahumans that were more effective
than humans.

My advice is that if you want to keep a more human party of runners, use the
Allergy rules, but if you want to see more metahumans use the More Metahumans
Rule (Duh!).

Of course you could use both and let humans have allergies too. I have
allergies and I'm human (mostly).

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Trust No One." *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * The late Deep Throat *
* The Nightstalker * * The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************
Message no. 2
From: "Brennan M. O'Keefe" <bmokeefe@**.COM>
Subject: More Metahumans
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 22:17:32 -0500
Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?
Message no. 3
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.ivcc.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 00:03:23 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:

> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?

We played with a variation on this rule. We played where, I think,
Trolls were A priority, Orks were B, and Dwarfs and Elves were C. It
seemed to work out pretty well. The huge bonuses for Troll offset the A,
and the somewhat lacking bonuses for elves and dwarfs lent nicely to the
C. Seemed to work out okay. None of the players minded, and I thought
it was fair.



/* Court Schuett
schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If I were a carpenter I'd
Hammer on my piglet, I'd
Collect the seven dollars and I'd
Buy a big prosthetic forehead
And wear it on my real head
-They Might Be Giants
*******************************************************************************/
Message no. 4
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 15:58:27 +1000 (EST)
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:

> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?

We use this More Metahumans rule as is, for every (metahuman) character. I
found that an A priority actually made it a penalty to become a Troll, or
whatever. The stats and things sort of even out, when they only have to
give up a C priority.


Ray.

_______________________________________________________________________
| 'The Universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be |
| missed.' |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: n1565842@*******.qut.edu.au or
r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au
Message no. 5
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:41:06 GMT
Brennan M. O'Keefe writes

> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
yes.
I got FAR too many elves, mostly because thanks Tolkin etc they have
good PC, they 'llok' nice.

> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?
>
The metahumans were set at A to enforce realistic ratios of
metahumans in the game, as it stands they are a roleplaying option.
Use more meta's and you will probably get more variety which is nice
but the results are not SR realistic (humans are still 70 odd % of
the population, it will reach lower, i think in ED dawarfs are the
most common at about 20-25% with the full mana levels).

At very low attribute priorites with an allergy it is possible to
gain attribute points over a human going Meta with more metahumans
C atts E human to C meta, E atts:
Thats 20 stat becomes 15+3 (net bonus,) + typically 4 for allergy "
this usually shows on full magicians with money B, race elf for the
huge Charisma for conjouring.

The troll combat monster won't be affected so much appart from the
fact he can how get money A and keep up with the cyber humans can buy
which is fairer if anything, certainly meta riggers are fragged with
metahumans at A if you play at ths common, wired 2, limos for
transprot power levels i usually see (eg bodyguard/former company man
archtypes power levels)

>

your choice, pointing out the abuses i know of, if you have good
players though it shouldn't be too much of a problem if they listen
to 'you can have it if the results are still sensible in SR'.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:39:28 +0100
Brennan M. O'Keefe said on 22:17/ 3 Oct 96...

> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?

A lot of people have.

> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?

I'd say go with the C priority for metahumans. SR's character generation
system is balanced, so even though you could get a troll with a million
nuyen (and as a result, a Body approaching 20) that character will have
fewer skills and Attribute points than others who didn't go for the
jackpot. Another thing you can do to stop them from taking lotsa money is
to ask them for a _good_ explanation where they got all the gear they
bought for it.

BTW, if anyon'es thinking of creating a munchkin in this sort of way, my
advise is to go for money, skills, and attributes in that order. The money
can buy you all the extra attribute points you need, but skills are much
harder to come by :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"You can ground supercalifragilistic ammo through elven illuminati!"
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 7
From: "Brennan M. O'Keefe" <bmokeefe@**.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:43:18 -0500
> From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
> To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> Subject: Re: More Metahumans
> Date: Friday, October 04, 1996 6:41 AM

> Brennan M. O'Keefe writes

> The metahumans were set at A to enforce realistic ratios of
> metahumans in the game, as it stands they are a roleplaying option.
> Use more meta's and you will probably get more variety which is nice
> but the results are not SR realistic (humans are still 70 odd % of
> the population, it will reach lower, i think in ED dawarfs are the
> most common at about 20-25% with the full mana levels).

Well, I've never really bought the demographics argument for the "A"
priority. It may better represent the distribution of the general
population. However, it's always seemed to me that there would be a lot
more metas in the Shadowrunner population. After all, as the targets of
racism, they have a harder time getting straight work. Also, a larger
portion of the metahuman races seem to be SINless, for various reasons.

> At very low attribute priorites with an allergy it is possible to
> gain attribute points over a human going Meta with more metahumans
> C atts E human to C meta, E atts:
> Thats 20 stat becomes 15+3 (net bonus,) + typically 4 for allergy "
> this usually shows on full magicians with money B, race elf for the
> huge Charisma for conjouring.

Hmm. Might not be so bad if I limit or eliminate allergies, then. Say,
limit the total bonus levels for allergies and prevent players from using
both bonuses in the same area.

> The troll combat monster won't be affected so much appart from the
> fact he can how get money A and keep up with the cyber humans can buy
> which is fairer if anything, certainly meta riggers are fragged with
> metahumans at A if you play at ths common, wired 2, limos for
> transprot power levels i usually see (eg bodyguard/former company man
> archtypes power levels)

Yeah, THIS is the reason I'm considering using more metas: to give players
a chance to have metas in non-standard roles.
Message no. 8
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:03:00 -0600 (MDT)
Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:
|
|Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
|I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
|listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
|metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
|that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
|monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
|an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?

No. But I'll tell you what I do.

In my game players don't have to assign a priority to have
a metahuman PC. But, if they do play a metahuman than
whatever priority they assign to money is lowered by one
level (A becomes B, etc). I do this to reflect the
prejiduce(sp?) agains metahumans and the idea that they
have a harder life, in general, and not as many options as
"regular" people. If you haven't guessed allready, I don't
allow players to make PC elves that start with citizenship in
any of the elven nations.

Also, I only allow one point for nuisance allergies. They
can have as many nuisance allergies as they want, but they
only gain one character point.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 9
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:05:44 -0600 (MDT)
Court Schuett wrote:
|
|On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:
|
|> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
|> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
|> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
|> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
|> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
|> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
|> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?
|
|We played with a variation on this rule. We played where, I think,
|Trolls were A priority, Orks were B, and Dwarfs and Elves were C. It
|seemed to work out pretty well. The huge bonuses for Troll offset the A,
|and the somewhat lacking bonuses for elves and dwarfs lent nicely to the
|C. Seemed to work out okay. None of the players minded, and I thought
|it was fair.

But, Elves bonuses average out higher than Trolls, Orcs and
Dwarves. I would have put Elves at A, Trolls and Orcs at
B, and Dwarves at C. Just my humble opinion.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 10
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:23:06 -0400 (EDT)
> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?

We've been using the MM rule - it doesn't seem to unbalance things. The
first game, we ended up with 3 elves, a human and an ork (and a dwarf who
joined later) which led to some interesting situations.

Then the elven shaman attacked Lone Star and totally screwed the entire party.
Bit of background, the ork and dwarf were already wanted for mass-murder -
they were hired to kill a security consultant and planted lots of C12 in the
middle of the street; they missed. My char (Kat - elf, no archetype
appropriate) was totally messed up psychologically (trust thing). The
shaman got "killed" and a new elf with ritual samples and a cortex bomb got
sent to spy on Tir Tairngire... Can you say new character time?

Now we've got 2 trolls, the rest are human. One of the trolls is a shaman...
We've got two mages, 2 physads (brothers) and a blunt-object troll (the
player responsible for the fiasco above isn't playing anymore, either).

If your players put character above grossness then you've got nothing to
worry about.

James-the-have-faith-in-your-players-guy
Message no. 11
From: Edward Paul <doyle@******.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 05:50:50 -1000
> On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:
>
> > Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character
creation?

In areas where metahumans represent a good proprotion of the
population, it would be logical (maybe mandatory) to use this rule.

Of course, there should be some guidelines. For example, Orcs and
trolls are quite common here in Hawai'i, so the more metahuman rule should
apply to them. Since elves are quite rare here, the more meta rule
shouldn't be allowed. If we were creating characters to play in Tir Nan
N'og (Ireland) where elves predominate, then the more meta rule should
apply to them.

How's this sound?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward Paul University of Hawaii at Manoa
E-Mail: doyle@******.edu
World Wide Web: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~doyle
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: "'Spaceman' WD Lee" <spaced@*.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:57:31 -0700 (PDT)
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:

> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know

I tend to use the more metas rule, but no allergies without my
approval... I've never had a problem with abuse (although one guy ALWAYS
plays a trog street sam), but then I don't tend to have really combat
heavy adventures. Our emphasis is much more on stealth with a political
background arc story. (Governor Shultz has just been assasinated.....)

The Spaceman |God said, "Let there be light." And God
spaced@*.washington.edu |separated the light from the dark. And
Check out the Bill Page! |did two loads of laundry. -Genesis 1:2.5
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P+ L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
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MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ Dr
Message no. 13
From: "Caric" <caric@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:17:19 -0700
> We played with a variation on this rule. We played where, I think,
> Trolls were A priority, Orks were B, and Dwarfs and Elves were C. It
> seemed to work out pretty well. The huge bonuses for Troll offset the A,

> and the somewhat lacking bonuses for elves and dwarfs lent nicely to the
> C. Seemed to work out okay. None of the players minded, and I thought
> it was fair.
>
But you also have to look at the fact that elves have no minuses while
trolls have some pretty serious ones not only on attributes, bit socially
as well. Elves are not AS prone to racism as trolls or orcs IMHO


Caric
Message no. 14
From: Mike Buckalew <mike_buckalew@******.COM>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 10:45:44 -0700
Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote
>Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
>I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
>listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
>metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
>that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
>monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
>an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?

I use this rule and it works fine. More than half of my players run meta
(3 Humans, 2 Elves, 1 Dwarf, 1 Troll), but their characters don't seem to
dominate play. It was something I let them decide. Before the campaign
started, I asked 'em which way they wanted to go. I made sure to point
out that any metahuman opposition would follow the same rules, but this
didn't dissuade them.

This actually works well for me as a DM. My Orc thugs are tougher than
my human ones, and my Elven hitmen are faster. All in all, I think it
has worked out quite well.


Buck
(Mike Buckalew)
buck@******.com

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Message no. 15
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 10:58:17 -0800
At 12:39 10/4/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Brennan M. O'Keefe said on 22:17/ 3 Oct 96...
>
>> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character
creation?
>
>A lot of people have.
>
>I'd say go with the C priority for metahumans.

Given that priority A on magic means you're a magician-- one in 1000--
I wold expect that being a metahuman-- 2 in 5-- should be much easier.
The More Metahumans rule just seems to make statistical sense.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 16
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.ivcc.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 13:52:37 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> Court Schuett wrote:
> |
> |On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:
> |
> |> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character
creation?
> |> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
> |> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
> |> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
> |> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
> |> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
> |> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?
> |
> |We played with a variation on this rule. We played where, I think,
> |Trolls were A priority, Orks were B, and Dwarfs and Elves were C. It
> |seemed to work out pretty well. The huge bonuses for Troll offset the A,
> |and the somewhat lacking bonuses for elves and dwarfs lent nicely to the
> |C. Seemed to work out okay. None of the players minded, and I thought
> |it was fair.
>
> But, Elves bonuses average out higher than Trolls, Orcs and
> Dwarves. I would have put Elves at A, Trolls and Orcs at
> B, and Dwarves at C. Just my humble opinion.

I see your point, but I still think the incredible bonuses given to
trolls, like +5 to body is just crazy. Sure they take some hits, but I
think the benefits out weigh the penalties.

I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know, what
about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
that's cool too.


/* Court Schuett

schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blue canary in the outlet by the light switch
Who watches over you
Make a little birdhouse in your soul
Not to put too fine a point on it:
Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet
Make a little birdhouse in your soul
-They Might Be Giants
*******************************************************************************/
Message no. 17
From: "Caric" <caric@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 13:12:50 -0700
> I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know, what

> about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
> that's cool too.
>
I don't know if they have discussed it on the list, but as a group we have
discussed half races and ruled them to be immpossible because its a genetic
trait manifested because of magic. Either you have the gene for an orc or
you don't no in between. Granted this is just a house rule, but that's how
we have been playing it.

Caric-the-half-kook-shaman
Message no. 18
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans -Reply
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 16:35:38 -0500
>>> Caric <caric@*******.com> 10/04/96 03:12pm >>>
>> I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know, what
>> about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
>> that's cool too.
>>
>I don't know if they have discussed it on the list, but as a group we have
>discussed half races and ruled them to be immpossible because its a genetic
>trait manifested because of magic. Either you have the gene for an orc or you
>don't no in between. Granted this is just a house rule, but that's how we have
>been playing it.
>
>Caric-the-half-kook-shaman

That's not a house rule, that's in the rulebooks.

Double Domed Mike
Message no. 19
From: Asher Rosenberg <ASROSENBERG@******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 13:47:03 -0700
Caric wrote:

[Caric, sorry for replying to your message, but I already deleted the
original message]

> Somebody else wrote:
> > I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know, what
> > about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
> > that's cool too.

See SR/II Sourcebook, page 34: "No true half-breeds or crossbreeds are
known to exist"
Message no. 20
From: "Caric" <caric@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans -Reply
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 13:59:51 -0700
> That's not a house rule, that's in the rulebooks.
>
Oh...good deal I stand corrected. <bowing humbly>


Caric-the-embarrassed-shaman :o
Message no. 21
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 17:11:19 -0500 (EST)
>> I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know, what
>
>> about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
>> that's cool too.
>>
>I don't know if they have discussed it on the list, but as a group we have
>discussed half races and ruled them to be immpossible because its a genetic
>trait manifested because of magic. Either you have the gene for an orc or
>you don't no in between. Granted this is just a house rule, but that's how
>we have been playing it.
>
In one of the Stryper stories/ovels (don't remember which one) she meets up
with a thingcalled an ogre, which was possibly a genetic hybrid which gave
the strength and general nastiness of a Troll, but put it in a fairly
human looking body the size of an ork... Or something like that. It was
described a bit fuzzily,soI can't quite recall the exact details.

In our game,Steve Tinner introduced something similar to that, briefly.
Bull has two twin children, bothe Orks... However,he briefly hada third
child that was born a year after the twins. He was supposedly stillborn, as
what was described as an ogre... basically a ork that looked completely
human, except that he was ork sized, with strands of both DNA... Or
something like that.

I'm not sure all the details,as he never told us. It was one of his
wonderful dangling plot hooks that actually led nowhere, just something for
us to worry about...:)

Unfortunately, he's not able to get his mail right now, so he can't
respond... When he gets his comp up and running I'll try to remember to ask
him about this...:) Maybe he'll explain it to ya'll..>:)

See ya later...:)

>Caric-the-half-kook-shaman
>
-Bull-the-half-baked-Decker-turned-GM



****************************************************************************
*******
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************
*******

"I say we go back to the ship, and nuke the
site from Orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
-Ripley, "Aliens"
Message no. 22
From: tglinka@*****.ASU.EDU
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 23:29:46 -0700 (MST)
On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Brennan M. O'Keefe said on 22:17/ 3 Oct 96...
>
> > Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character
creation?
>
> A lot of people have.

In my game we do use the More Metahumans option, but with a slight
twist. I am stating up front that the modification is a HOUSE RULE
before anyone complains about the lack of support in the rules. The
difference we use is simply that the metahuman characters are required to
take on an allergy using the optional allergy rules. However the benefits
from such an allergy are reduced by two levels.
For example a character with a mild allergy to an uncommon substance
would have no benefit at all (instead of +2 attributes for example). A
character with severe allergy to a common substance could have +3
attributes instead of +5 attributes.
If they don't want an allergy, well they don't get the "more metahuman"
option.
We have been using this rule for about 6 months now and it seems to
make this pretty well balanced. Our group consists of three humans, an
elf, and ork, and a troll. The allergies make for a more rounded
character (good for role playing mostly) and haven't really have much
effect on gameplay, except the time we ran into a guy with silver
bullets, but that's a long story.

> <BIG SNIP>
> BTW, if anyon'es thinking of creating a munchkin in this sort of way, my
> advise is to go for money, skills, and attributes in that order. The money
> can buy you all the extra attribute points you need, but skills are much
> harder to come by :)

I agree with the importance of skills. They can be incredibly tough to
raise after play starts.
Here are some observations my group has found. Some people who have
been around a lot longer may have differences of opinion (and this is
exactly what this is--opinion), but this is what we have come up with.
Our campaign tends to be pretty "money-friendly" and so we tend to put
skills first, money second, and attributes last. It is much easier to
raise attributes than it is to raise skills. The characters who began
the campaign with high attributes and low skills are really hurting now
compared with the "skills first" people. Most of the cyberware and
other goodies has been purchased after play started since we do tend to
make gobs of cash.
Our GM also makes us justify anything we start with, whether it be
money, skills, attributes, or cyberware stuff. We had a completely
cybered munchkin with starting stats of 12's and reaction in the high
teens. The player could not justify any of it (no imagination on his part)
and so it got nixed. This makes for better characters from a ROLE
playing stand point, at least from my group's point of view.
Just my $0.02 worth. Okay maybe it isn't worth that much.

T. Glinka
Message no. 23
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 13:09:26 +0100
David Buehrer said on 8:05/ 4 Oct 96...

> But, Elves bonuses average out higher than Trolls, Orcs and
> Dwarves. I would have put Elves at A, Trolls and Orcs at
> B, and Dwarves at C. Just my humble opinion.

All racial bonuses come out at +3 Attribute points in total. Add to that
the low-light or thermographic vision, either of which is of about the
same level of usefulness (different mods in different situations, so
they're about equal), and the running multiplier, and other pros (like the
extra reach of a troll, etc.), and it comes out that all are about
balanced against each other.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
No expenses spent.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 13:09:26 +0100
Court Schuett said on 13:52/ 4 Oct 96...

> I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know, what
> about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
> that's cool too.

Cross-breeding take 173, I think :) (Perhaps I should add this isn't meant
as a flame, it just goes to show I really am an old-timer despite my
denials about the matter :)

Anyway, cross-breeding is not possible in SR. It's explained on page 34
of the SRII rules, but to paraphrase:

Human + elf/dwarf = elf/dwarf
Human + ork/troll = ork/troll
Elf/dwarf + ork/troll = ork/troll

This happens most of the time, but not always. For example, a human and a
dwarf could have a human child, it's just not that common.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
No expenses spent.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 25
From: "John F. Lee" <jfl666@*.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 08:13:14 -0700 (PDT)
On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:

> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?
> I'm considering trying to put together a game (St. Louis area, if any
> listreaders are local), and it looks to me like this rule might create
> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?
>

Well, I, for one, rarely view it as an advantage, but, rather, just
another way to play. Sure, trolls end up getting a point or two extra,
but think of the damage to reaction. Regardless of Charisma, if you're
one of the Expression-enhanced (PC way to say goblinized), humans (plus
other magic races) are almost always going to be edgy around you.

Just my view of it.

John F. Lee / jfl666@*.washington.edu
No herky-jerky starts or stops!
Message no. 26
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:04:39 -0600 (MDT)
Gurth wrote:
|
|Anyway, cross-breeding is not possible in SR. It's explained on page 34
|of the SRII rules, but to paraphrase:
|
|Human + elf/dwarf = elf/dwarf
|Human + ork/troll = ork/troll
|Elf/dwarf + ork/troll = ork/troll
|
|This happens most of the time, but not always. For example, a human and a
|dwarf could have a human child, it's just not that common.

Don't know why, but this never dawned on me before.

So orks/trolls are genetically dominant over
elves/dwarves. No wonder there's an elvish conspiracy.

And metahumans are genetically dominant over humans.
That's a recruiting slogan for Humanis if I ever heard
one. "Join us or Humanity will be bred out of existance!"
<evil GM grin>

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 27
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:08:24 -0600 (MDT)
Gurth wrote:
|
|David Buehrer said on 8:05/ 4 Oct 96...
|
|> But, Elves bonuses average out higher than Trolls, Orcs and
|> Dwarves. I would have put Elves at A, Trolls and Orcs at
|> B, and Dwarves at C. Just my humble opinion.
|
|All racial bonuses come out at +3 Attribute points in total. Add to that
|the low-light or thermographic vision, either of which is of about the
|same level of usefulness (different mods in different situations, so
|they're about equal), and the running multiplier, and other pros (like the
|extra reach of a troll, etc.), and it comes out that all are about
|balanced against each other.

Yet again I learn something new. But I would still put the
priorities where I did, so that someone might actually play
a dwarf (hasn't happened yet in any of my games).

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 28
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 16:19:46 -0500 (EST)
>Yet again I learn something new. But I would still put the
>priorities where I did, so that someone might actually play
>a dwarf (hasn't happened yet in any of my games).
>
We've had one Dwarf in our game so far, and we, as teh PC's, killed him. Of
course, that was cause he ratted us out to teh government, but...

I agree, though. that Dwarves are an undervalued and underused class. I
would like to see someone come up with a way to make the little buggers more
attractive as characters...





****************************************************************************
*******
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************
*******
"Listen... You smell that?"
-Dr. Peter Venkman, "Ghostbusters"
Message no. 29
From: olafurg@******.is (olafur gunnarsson)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 20:27:31 GMT
>>Yet again I learn something new. But I would still put the
>>priorities where I did, so that someone might actually play
>>a dwarf (hasn't happened yet in any of my games).
>>
>We've had one Dwarf in our game so far, and we, as teh PC's, killed him. Of
>course, that was cause he ratted us out to teh government, but...
>
>I agree, though. that Dwarves are an undervalued and underused class. I
>would like to see someone come up with a way to make the little buggers more
>attractive as characters...
>
>
Well you might try pointing out to a player that the Dwarf Makes a Kick ass
mage with that extra wp. Ive had one Mage Dwarf played in my group. And see
the little bugger cast
spells that would kill a normal human mage and shrug of the drain almost
made me cry.
Also there have been two other dwarfs played in the group one was by a total
munchkin whom im trying to break in this character was created using the
more meta rules so he set A to Resources B to Statz C to race and D to
skills then he had four skills all combat and all rated about six or so. I
canceled that character right quick.
The other being played in my game now is a former gang member with the Brain
eaters
who turned first to strong arming for the yaks and then running when his
brothers girlfriend was kidnaped and he and a bunch of other friends made a
rescue raid ona a
corporate lab.
>
Message no. 30
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 21:08:27 -0600 (CST)
Bull-the-....... wrote:


>In one of the Stryper stories/ovels (don't remember which one) she meets up
>with a thingcalled an ogre, which was possibly a genetic hybrid which gave
>the strength and general nastiness of a Troll, but put it in a fairly
>human looking body the size of an ork... Or something like that. It was
>described a bit fuzzily, so I can't quite recall the exact details.
>

As I recall the Ogre was discribed in the Para. Animals of Europe. It was
discribed as a variation on the Ork with no differences in atributes. The
only differences was the size and appearance. (smaller than an Ork and
hairless if memory serves)

Minotars (sp?) are similarly discribed as a form of troll.

I think my brother has the book in question, so if someone could look his
up I would appreciate support or correction. :)


Piatro-pointing-the-way-on-the-path-to-enlightenment-(sp?)
Message no. 31
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 21:08:23 -0600 (CST)
Caric wrote:

>But you also have to look at the fact that elves have no minuses while
>trolls have some pretty serious ones not only on attributes, bit socially
>as well. Elves are not AS prone to racism as trolls or orcs IMHO
>


No way man! Haven't you looked at either of the Tirs? I'd say that Elves
as a society have a strong pregudice (sp?) against every one else in general,
with Trolls and Orks getting the worst rap.

Now, if you meant to say that they are the _target_ of less racism, then I
agree with you. Especially when dealing with Humans, they are accepted much
more than the other meta-races.

Piatro
Message no. 32
From: "Brennan M. O'Keefe" <bmokeefe@**.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 22:32:31 -0500
> |We played with a variation on this rule. We played where, I think,
> |Trolls were A priority, Orks were B, and Dwarfs and Elves were C. It
> |seemed to work out pretty well. The huge bonuses for Troll offset the
A,
> |and the somewhat lacking bonuses for elves and dwarfs lent nicely to the

> |C. Seemed to work out okay. None of the players minded, and I thought
> |it was fair.

> But, Elves bonuses average out higher than Trolls, Orcs and
> Dwarves. I would have put Elves at A, Trolls and Orcs at
> B, and Dwarves at C. Just my humble opinion.

Elves may have more net points in bonuses, but they aren't THAT far outside
of Human limits. The Trolls' Strength and Body bonuses, on the other hand,
can go well over what any human can manage. Also consider the Trolls'
non-attribute bonuses -- reach, armor, etc. It seems to me that these
things give Trolls more potential for abuse.
Message no. 33
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 04:12:40 -0500 (EST)
>Bull-the-....... wrote:
>
>
>>In one of the Stryper stories/ovels (don't remember which one) she meets up
>>with a thingcalled an ogre, which was possibly a genetic hybrid which gave
>>the strength and general nastiness of a Troll, but put it in a fairly
>>human looking body the size of an ork... Or something like that. It was
>>described a bit fuzzily, so I can't quite recall the exact details.
>>
>
>As I recall the Ogre was discribed in the Para. Animals of Europe. It was
>discribed as a variation on the Ork with no differences in atributes. The
>only differences was the size and appearance. (smaller than an Ork and
>hairless if memory serves)
>
>Minotars (sp?) are similarly discribed as a form of troll.
>
>I think my brother has the book in question, so if someone could look his
>up I would appreciate support or correction. :)
>
>
>Piatro-pointing-the-way-on-the-path-to-enlightenment-(sp?)
>
You're correct on the point of the European Orks and Minotaurs,and I believe
they weredetailedin the Germany sourcebook. However, the creature described
in the Stryper novel was definately something a bit different. It was
something that had been bioengineered, and they may not have used the term
Ogre,,, That may have been STeve Tinners label for it... then again, they
may have... It's been a couple years since I read taht book, so...

-Bull-the-trying-to-remember-the-book-but-can't-decker-turned-GM



****************************************************************************
*******
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************
*******
"Listen... You smell that?"
-Dr. Peter Venkman, "Ghostbusters"
Message no. 34
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 12:41:55 +0100
olafur gunnarsson said on 20:27/ 5 Oct 96...

> Well you might try pointing out to a player that the Dwarf Makes a Kick
> ass mage with that extra wp. Ive had one Mage Dwarf played in my group.
> And see the little bugger cast spells that would kill a normal human mage
> and shrug of the drain almost made me cry.

That's exactly the reason there's a dwarf shaman running around in my
group. The player had decided on a magician, and looked over the racial
modifiers, so immediately decided on a dwarf, and followed it up by
putting 6 points into Willpower.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
No expenses spent.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 35
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 05:06:29 +0100
In article <325577C7.549@******.COM>, Asher Rosenberg
<ASROSENBERG@******.com> writes
>Caric wrote:
>
>[Caric, sorry for replying to your message, but I already deleted the
>original message]
>
>> Somebody else wrote:
>> > I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know, what
>> > about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
>> > that's cool too.
>
>See SR/II Sourcebook, page 34: "No true half-breeds or crossbreeds are
>known to exist"

That was true in 2054 when the Core book was written, but we're now in
2057 (2062 in my game) and as elves are so "pretty" it seems reasonable
to assume that there is a goodly chance of half elves knocking around,
half orcs/trolls? Hmm, might be difficult, but there are some strange
people out there, ISR that in some other games half Orcs/Trolls were
explained away by their "evil" nature (pillaging/raping that sort of
thing), but seeing as FASA has decided to protray them differently, this
would be unworkable. Allowing for mankind's propensity for deviant
behaviour, yes I can see that there would be half race metahumans
around. Three years is a long time in *any* world, in SR it's several
lifetimes.

I do have half race meta's in my world, I don't see that they are
"against" the core rules in any way, and allowing for the very nature of
(meta)human behaviour it is distinctly likely. Of course, this will
remain unconfirmed until FASA introduce inter-racial sex into the game
(unlikely seeing as it's supposed to be a "family" affair - pun
intended).

Just my thoughts.

Pete.

--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 36
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 05:09:34 +0100
In article <199610042211.RAA29198@***.ncweb.com>, Steven Ratkovich
<chaos@*****.com> writes
[snip cross race question]
>>I don't know if they have discussed it on the list, but as a group we have
>>discussed half races and ruled them to be immpossible because its a genetic
>>trait manifested because of magic. Either you have the gene for an orc or
>>you don't no in between. Granted this is just a house rule, but that's how
>>we have been playing it.
>>
>In one of the Stryper stories/ovels (don't remember which one) she meets up
>with a thingcalled an ogre, which was possibly a genetic hybrid which gave
>the strength and general nastiness of a Troll, but put it in a fairly
>human looking body the size of an ork... Or something like that. It was
>described a bit fuzzily,soI can't quite recall the exact details.

As far As I can recall, Ogres are in fact European Orcs, I think they
are slightly larger than the standard Orc (seeing as there is an Orc
population in the UK there must be some difference), but they are
according to FASA, European, from the mediterranean I think, or was that
Minotaurs?? Anyway, Ogres are from Europe, unless some emigrated. :)


Pete
--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 37
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 16:18:14 +0100 (BST)
On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Court Schuett wrote:

> > Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character
creation?
>
> We played with a variation on this rule. We played where, I think,
> Trolls were A priority, Orks were B, and Dwarfs and Elves were C. It
> seemed to work out pretty well. The huge bonuses for Troll offset the A,
> and the somewhat lacking bonuses for elves and dwarfs lent nicely to the
> C. Seemed to work out okay. None of the players minded, and I thought
> it was fair.
Well all the stat modifiers combine to a total of +3 for ALL metahuman
types. So its only the extras which make any differnece between the
races
e.g. Dermal Armour, Reach, Thermographic vision, resistance to disease
etc.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun
Message no. 38
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 13:22:52 -0700
----------
> From: Steven Ratkovich <chaos@*****.com>
> To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> Subject: Re: More Metahumans
> Date: Friday, October 04, 1996 3:11 PM
>
> >> I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know,
what
> >
> >> about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
> >> that's cool too.
<SNIP>
> In one of the Stryper stories/ovels (don't remember which one) she meets
up
> with a thingcalled an ogre, which was possibly a genetic hybrid which
gave
> the strength and general nastiness of a Troll, but put it in a fairly
> human looking body the size of an ork... Or something like that. It was
> described a bit fuzzily,soI can't quite recall the exact details.
>
> In our game,Steve Tinner introduced something similar to that, briefly.
> Bull has two twin children, bothe Orks... However,he briefly hada third
> child that was born a year after the twins. He was supposedly stillborn,
as
> what was described as an ogre... basically a ork that looked completely
> human, except that he was ork sized, with strands of both DNA... Or
> something like that.

Check the back of the Paranormal Animals of Europe book for stats on Ogre's
(European expression of the Ork). Probably what was being referred to in
both these cases.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 39
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 22:23:59 -0700
> Gurth wrote:
> |
> |Anyway, cross-breeding is not possible in SR. It's explained on page 34

> |of the SRII rules, but to paraphrase:
> |
> |Human + elf/dwarf = elf/dwarf
> |Human + ork/troll = ork/troll
> |Elf/dwarf + ork/troll = ork/troll
> |
> |This happens most of the time, but not always. For example, a human and
a
> |dwarf could have a human child, it's just not that common.
>
> Don't know why, but this never dawned on me before.
>
> So orks/trolls are genetically dominant over
> elves/dwarves. No wonder there's an elvish conspiracy.
>
> And metahumans are genetically dominant over humans.
> That's a recruiting slogan for Humanis if I ever heard
> one. "Join us or Humanity will be bred out of existance!"
> <evil GM grin>

So strikingly similar to the KKK nowadays it's spooky. Watch some talk
shows on racists and sumpremists and it'll give you good ideas for Humanis
presence in your games.

What gets really weird is when you do get the occasional racial supremecy
debtor that can speak educatedly or logically on the topic, as you pointed
out with the genetic dominance of the meta-gene.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 40
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 22:26:20 -0700
> >Yet again I learn something new. But I would still put the
> >priorities where I did, so that someone might actually play
> >a dwarf (hasn't happened yet in any of my games).
> >
> We've had one Dwarf in our game so far, and we, as teh PC's, killed him.
Of
> course, that was cause he ratted us out to teh government, but...
>
> I agree, though. that Dwarves are an undervalued and underused class. I
> would like to see someone come up with a way to make the little buggers
more
> attractive as characters...

Bonus to will power should do it for the magic types, but you still really
never see it. <shrug>

Loki-the-wondering-why-dwarves-are-only-PC's-GM


CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 41
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 22:52:34 -0700
> Caric wrote:
>
> >But you also have to look at the fact that elves have no minuses while
> >trolls have some pretty serious ones not only on attributes, bit
socially
> >as well. Elves are not AS prone to racism as trolls or orcs IMHO
> >
>
>
> No way man! Haven't you looked at either of the Tirs? I'd say that
Elves
> as a society have a strong pregudice (sp?) against every one else in
general,
> with Trolls and Orks getting the worst rap.
>
> Now, if you meant to say that they are the _target_ of less racism, then
I
> agree with you. Especially when dealing with Humans, they are accepted
much
> more than the other meta-races.
>
> Piatro

I think he was meaning that elves aren't as prone to being the target of
racism as are the golinized races. Elves are more a novelty, big in
entertainment industries, or some corp's sexual trophy...they're attractive
and have alot of myth and fairy tale behind them. You're born an ef or a
dwarf.

The orks and trolls weren't born that way to begin with. The "monkeyed out"
for weeks, torturing in hospitals and clinics. It was paniful, their
screams heard through the halls. The majority went slightly unbalanced
during the frist few epidemics of goblinization which attributes to
societies belief of orks being short-fused and violent, not to mention
media coining the words goblinization, orks and trolls. I'm sure there were
movies and tri-vid mini-series that didn't help matters either.

I think this was the point Caric was trying to make.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 42
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 22:59:25 -0700
> >Bull-the-....... wrote:
> >
> >
> >>In one of the Stryper stories/ovels (don't remember which one) she
meets up
> >>with a thingcalled an ogre, which was possibly a genetic hybrid which
gave
> >>the strength and general nastiness of a Troll, but put it in a fairly
> >>human looking body the size of an ork... Or something like that. It
was
> >>described a bit fuzzily, so I can't quite recall the exact details.
> >>
> >
> >As I recall the Ogre was discribed in the Para. Animals of Europe. It
was
> >discribed as a variation on the Ork with no differences in atributes.
The
> >only differences was the size and appearance. (smaller than an Ork and
> >hairless if memory serves)
> >
> >Minotars (sp?) are similarly discribed as a form of troll.
> >
> >I think my brother has the book in question, so if someone could look
his
> >up I would appreciate support or correction. :)
> >
> >
> >Piatro-pointing-the-way-on-the-path-to-enlightenment-(sp?)
> >
> You're correct on the point of the European Orks and Minotaurs,and I
believe
> they weredetailedin the Germany sourcebook. However, the creature
described
> in the Stryper novel was definately something a bit different. It was
> something that had been bioengineered, and they may not have used the
term
> Ogre,,, That may have been STeve Tinners label for it... then again,
they
> may have... It's been a couple years since I read taht book, so...
>
> -Bull-the-trying-to-remember-the-book-but-can't-decker-turned-GM

To which Striper novel do you refer? I don't remember this thing in Striper
Assassin. However, I have not read the more recent one Who Hunts the
Hunter. The reference of a bio-enginered creature make me think of the
Doppleganger magically and genetically enigineered by the corporation in
Never Deal with a Dragon, the firt in the Secrets of Power trilogy.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 43
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 23:13:12 -0700
<SNIP quote on rules of no half-races>
> That was true in 2054 when the Core book was written, but we're now in
> 2057 (2062 in my game) and as elves are so "pretty" it seems reasonable
> to assume that there is a goodly chance of half elves knocking around,
> half orcs/trolls? Hmm, might be difficult, but there are some strange
> people out there, ISR that in some other games half Orcs/Trolls were
> explained away by their "evil" nature (pillaging/raping that sort of
> thing), but seeing as FASA has decided to protray them differently, this
> would be unworkable. Allowing for mankind's propensity for deviant
> behaviour, yes I can see that there would be half race metahumans
> around. Three years is a long time in *any* world, in SR it's several
> lifetimes.
>
> I do have half race meta's in my world, I don't see that they are
> "against" the core rules in any way, and allowing for the very nature of
> (meta)human behaviour it is distinctly likely. Of course, this will
> remain unconfirmed until FASA introduce inter-racial sex into the game
> (unlikely seeing as it's supposed to be a "family" affair - pun
> intended).

I tend to disagree with you, but hey it's your game. Go with it if it works
for you. I don't allow half-races because:
1. It smacks too much of AD&D
2. FASA's ruled against it and I've already detered with too many
house-rules in other areas to bend this one.
3. There's too much meta-racism and poli-clubbing I try to protray in the
6th world. Let alone the can of worms to open with half-race babies being
brought in.

As I said, if it works for you, it's your game. Still, I'll steer clear of
half-breeds for now. ;o)

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 44
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 23:15:10 -0700
> <SNIP quote on rules of no half-races>
> > That was true in 2054 when the Core book was written, but we're now in
> > 2057 (2062 in my game) and as elves are so "pretty" it seems
reasonable
> > to assume that there is a goodly chance of half elves knocking around,
> > half orcs/trolls? Hmm, might be difficult, but there are some strange
> > people out there, ISR that in some other games half Orcs/Trolls were
> > explained away by their "evil" nature (pillaging/raping that sort of
> > thing), but seeing as FASA has decided to protray them differently,
this
> > would be unworkable. Allowing for mankind's propensity for deviant
> > behaviour, yes I can see that there would be half race metahumans
> > around. Three years is a long time in *any* world, in SR it's several
> > lifetimes.
> >
> > I do have half race meta's in my world, I don't see that they are
> > "against" the core rules in any way, and allowing for the very nature
of
> > (meta)human behaviour it is distinctly likely. Of course, this will
> > remain unconfirmed until FASA introduce inter-racial sex into the game
> > (unlikely seeing as it's supposed to be a "family" affair - pun
> > intended).
>
> I tend to disagree with you, but hey it's your game. Go with it if it
works
> for you. I don't allow half-races because:
> 1. It smacks too much of AD&D
> 2. FASA's ruled against it and I've already detered with too many
> house-rules in other areas to bend this one.
> 3. There's too much meta-racism and poli-clubbing I try to protray in the
> 6th world. Let alone the can of worms to open with half-race babies being
> brought in.
>
> As I said, if it works for you, it's your game. Still, I'll steer clear
of
> half-breeds for now. ;o)

Oops! Forgot something. Out of curiousity, what game mechanics and stats do
you apply to creating and playing half-races?

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 45
From: NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:23:09 -0700
At 10:26 PM 10/6/96 -0700, Loki wrote:
>> >Yet again I learn something new. But I would still put the
>> >priorities where I did, so that someone might actually play
>> >a dwarf (hasn't happened yet in any of my games).
>> >
>> We've had one Dwarf in our game so far, and we, as teh PC's, killed him.
>Of
>> course, that was cause he ratted us out to teh government, but...
>>
>> I agree, though. that Dwarves are an undervalued and underused class. I
>> would like to see someone come up with a way to make the little buggers
>more
>> attractive as characters...
>
>Bonus to will power should do it for the magic types, but you still really
>never see it. <shrug>
>
>Loki-the-wondering-why-dwarves-are-only-PC's-GM
>
>
Probably because they didn't take over two small contries and aren't really
healvily biased against. The rest it absolutely no PR. They screwed
everywhere else why no SR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 46
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 02:46:13 -0500 (EST)
>To which Striper novel do you refer? I don't remember this thing in Striper
>Assassin. However, I have not read the more recent one Who Hunts the
>Hunter. The reference of a bio-enginered creature make me think of the
>Doppleganger magically and genetically enigineered by the corporation in
>Never Deal with a Dragon, the firt in the Secrets of Power trilogy.
>
It actually might have been in the short story in Into the Shadows... And
it officially was called an "Orak Hai" (SP???) or something similar... It
was an orc with the bonuses of a troll that looked quite human, but was ork
sized... Something like that... The japanese name was what threw me off (I
asked Tinner about it) and I belive it was coined an ogre about a year or
two before Germany came out by Tom Dowd in an APA that he was in called
Scrawls from the Sprawls that Tinner was in...:)



****************************************************************************
*******
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************
*******
"Listen... You smell that?"
-Dr. Peter Venkman, "Ghostbusters"
Message no. 47
From: NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:46:30 -0700
>> I do have half race meta's in my world, I don't see that they are
>> "against" the core rules in any way, and allowing for the very nature
of
>> (meta)human behaviour it is distinctly likely. Of course, this will
>> remain unconfirmed until FASA introduce inter-racial sex into the game
>> (unlikely seeing as it's supposed to be a "family" affair - pun
>> intended).

In reply to the half concept of the Meta-races. It does go against one core
concept of the main book and the world created by FASA. Genetics it was only
said and backed up by the rest of the books that one set of getetic type was
doninant. Ork + Human = one genetic type ( Ork or Human in most cases, Troll
Dwarf or Elf in some rare cases.) Not Human + Elf = pretty little half
breed. With bonuses and no penalties either in stats or social discrimination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 48
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:49:04 +1000 (EST)
> Has anybody tried using the "More Metahumans" rule for character creation?

We use it pretty much all the time. Cooler, that way, and hell, it's
still hard enough to put together a metahuman character that's gonna take
it to the humans without a few-hundred-Karma-injection

> metahuman characters more in line with human character power levels. I know
> that there is some potential for abuse, such as building the Troll combat
> monster from Hell. Still, the advantages for most races hardly seem worth
> an "A" priority. Any comments or suggestions?

Agreed... and decent RP might solve any munchkinising. If you think the
players will take advantage of the C priority for metahumans to create
monsters, then don't do it...


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 49
From: NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:59:42 -0700
At 02:23 AM 10/6/96 -0700, NightLife wrote:
>At 10:26 PM 10/6/96 -0700, Loki wrote:
>>> >Yet again I learn something new. But I would still put the
>>> >priorities where I did, so that someone might actually play
>>> >a dwarf (hasn't happened yet in any of my games).
>>> >
>>> We've had one Dwarf in our game so far, and we, as teh PC's, killed him.
>>Of
>>> course, that was cause he ratted us out to teh government, but...
>>>
>>> I agree, though. that Dwarves are an undervalued and underused class. I
>>> would like to see someone come up with a way to make the little buggers
>>more
>>> attractive as characters...
>>
>>Bonus to will power should do it for the magic types, but you still really
>>never see it. <shrug>
>>
>>Loki-the-wondering-why-dwarves-are-only-PC's-GM
>>
>>

Let me try this sentence again.

>Probably because they didn't take over a few small contries and aren't really
>healvily biased against. Everybody like a elf and probably want one for a
sex slave. The rest it absolutely no PR. They screwed everywhere else why
not in SR.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 50
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:28:32 +0100
The Digital Mage said on 16:18/ 6 Oct 96...

> Well all the stat modifiers combine to a total of +3 for ALL metahuman
> types. So its only the extras which make any differnece between the
> races
> e.g. Dermal Armour, Reach, Thermographic vision, resistance to disease
> etc.

If you look very closely, you'll see that a -1 running multiplier
translates into 2 extra points in something else, which is a bit more
limited that just extra attributes: dwarfs get +2 body vs. pathogens,
while trolls get +1 reach and 1 point dermal armor.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everything looks better in black and white.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 51
From: olafurg@******.is (olafur gunnarsson)
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:50:10 GMT
>>To which Striper novel do you refer? I don't remember this thing in Striper
>>Assassin. However, I have not read the more recent one Who Hunts the
>>Hunter. The reference of a bio-enginered creature make me think of the
>>Doppleganger magically and genetically enigineered by the corporation in
>>Never Deal with a Dragon, the firt in the Secrets of Power trilogy.
>>
>It actually might have been in the short story in Into the Shadows... And
>it officially was called an "Orak Hai" (SP???) or something similar... It
>was an orc with the bonuses of a troll that looked quite human, but was ork
>sized... Something like that... The japanese name was what threw me off (I
>asked Tinner about it) and I belive it was coined an ogre about a year or
>two before Germany came out by Tom Dowd in an APA that he was in called
>Scrawls from the Sprawls that Tinner was in...:)
>
It is from into the shadows and the creature was called Uruck Hai wich is a
name used for a special type of Orcs in the lord of the rings series they
were allied with the wisard who attacked Helms deep.
The Uruck Hai in the story was also an orc but one that had been
genengineered into a
real power house.
Also there are other metatypes mostly allready existing metas who goblinize
turn into creatures such as goblins Doz qu nua and a couple of others i dont
remember.
Message no. 52
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:15:27 +0000
On 6 Oct 96 at 16:18, The Digital Mage wrote:
> Well all the stat modifiers combine to a total of +3 for ALL metahuman
> types. So its only the extras which make any differnece between the
> races
> e.g. Dermal Armour, Reach, Thermographic vision, resistance to disease
> etc.
...racism...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 53
From: "Caric" <caric@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:38:41 -0700
> I think he was meaning that elves aren't as prone to being the target of
> racism as are the golinized races. Elves are more a novelty, big in
> entertainment industries, or some corp's sexual trophy...they're
attractive
> and have alot of myth and fairy tale behind them. You're born an ef or a
> dwarf.
>
> The orks and trolls weren't born that way to begin with. The "monkeyed
out"
> for weeks, torturing in hospitals and clinics. It was paniful, their
> screams heard through the halls. The majority went slightly unbalanced
> during the frist few epidemics of goblinization which attributes to
> societies belief of orks being short-fused and violent, not to mention
> media coining the words goblinization, orks and trolls. I'm sure there
were
> movies and tri-vid mini-series that didn't help matters either.
>
> I think this was the point Caric was trying to make.


Sorry I didn't respond directly till now, but Loki did pretty much hit my
point right on.
Elves take less drek from other races than say your ork or troll, but I
agree that they can be arrogant, haughty, snobbish, bastards. :) Elves are
probably the most racist against other races 'course that could be just in
Loki's world so who knows.

Caric-the-hopefully-more-clear-now-shaman
Message no. 54
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:03:26 +1000 (EST)
> The metahumans were set at A to enforce realistic ratios of
> metahumans in the game, as it stands they are a roleplaying option.
> Use more meta's and you will probably get more variety which is nice
> but the results are not SR realistic (humans are still 70 odd % of
> the population, it will reach lower,

Hmmm... I know that in the general population base humans are at least
70% of the population, but does that necessarily hold true for
shadowrunners? I know many would see shadowrunning as a 'step up', a way
out of the low-life rut many metahumans are forced into. I think a
greater than average percent of metahumans present in shadowrunning could
be quite realistic.


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 55
From: "Brennan M. O'Keefe" <bmokeefe@**.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:53:31 -0500
> From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
> To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> Subject: Re: More Metahumans
> Date: Monday, October 07, 1996 12:26 AM

> > We've had one Dwarf in our game so far, and we, as teh PC's, killed
him.
> > Of course, that was cause he ratted us out to teh government, but...
> > I agree, though. that Dwarves are an undervalued and underused class.
I
> > would like to see someone come up with a way to make the little buggers
> > more attractive as characters...

> Bonus to will power should do it for the magic types, but you still
really
> never see it. <shrug>

Dwarfs make fairly good fighters with strength and body bonuses (not to
mention a little extra willpower to resist mana bolts), but the problem is
that Orks and Trolls really overshadow them in this regard. Anyone who
simply wants a combat monster on general principles will pick one of the
latter, since they don't expect int/charisma minuses to affect them. The
only Dwarf PCs I've ever seen in Shadowrun were from players who simply
liked Dwarfs on principle. The only thing I could really see to make Dwarfs
more attractive would be to give the various races different aptitudes for
skills, etc.
Message no. 56
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:34:23 +1000 (EST)
> I see your point, but I still think the incredible bonuses given to
> trolls, like +5 to body is just crazy. Sure they take some hits, but I
> think the benefits out weigh the penalties.

Wellllll, not really. If you add them all up, every race comes out with
+3. I guess it's just that since trolls get such HUGE bod & str bonuses
they gotta lose out somewhere.

> I'm pretty new to the group, but, what about cross-races? You know, what
> about a half-troll, half-ork or something? If it's been discussed,
> that's cool too.

I can't remember it being discussed in the 9 months or so I've been on
the list, but it states directly in Shadowtech that it can't be done.
Look in the background info on genetics.




Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 57
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:08:56 +1000 (EST)
> I agree with the importance of skills. They can be incredibly tough to
> raise after play starts.

Eurrrrrgh... no kidding. Try playing a physical mage, and then see if
there's anything you DON'T have to spend Karma on! *shudder*

> Our campaign tends to be pretty "money-friendly" and so we tend to put
> skills first, money second, and attributes last. It is much easier to
> raise attributes than it is to raise skills. The characters who began
> the campaign with high attributes and low skills are really hurting now
> compared with the "skills first" people. Most of the cyberware and
> other goodies has been purchased after play started since we do tend to
> make gobs of cash.

That makes sense. We're using a house rule (it may be a first edition
rule, I'm not sure) that you may only raise your attributes a limited
number of times. It used to be once, but we've since upped that to twice.

This is a jolly good rule, in this humble player's opinion. It preserves
the benefits to those who spend decent priorities on their attributes,
and it means that you DON'T eventually wind up with a team full of
maxed-out characters.



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 58
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 00:54:36 +0100
In article <199610070607.XAA06129@***.netzone.com>, Loki
<loki@*******.com> writes
[big snip regarding half races}
>
>Oops! Forgot something. Out of curiousity, what game mechanics and stats do
>you apply to creating and playing half-races?
>
<cheeky mode on>
Not telling you yet, you said you don't use them :)

Maybe I'll tell you later, when I am less likely to get into trouble
over it :) - Like around the time FASA confirm their existence. :)
<cheeky mode off>

Pete

--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 59
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 00:52:43 +0100
In article <199610070605.XAA05977@***.netzone.com>, Loki
<loki@*******.com> writes
[snip half breed notes]
>I tend to disagree with you, but hey it's your game. Go with it if it works
>for you. I don't allow half-races because:
>1. It smacks too much of AD&D

Yes there is that disadvantage to it, but there you go.
>2. FASA's ruled against it and I've already detered with too many
>house-rules in other areas to bend this one.
I know they did, but I changed that :)

>3. There's too much meta-racism and poli-clubbing I try to protray in the
>6th world. Let alone the can of worms to open with half-race babies being
>brought in.

That's precisely why I did it. One of my players was a member of a
policlub :) and I just decided to play with him a bit. :)

>
>As I said, if it works for you, it's your game. Still, I'll steer clear of
>half-breeds for now. ;o)

Don't blame you, they add a lot of trouble and conflict into the game,
that only makes worse what's already there. :)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.
Message no. 60
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 00:48:36 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961006094630.00677644@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
>>> I do have half race meta's in my world, I don't see that they are
>>> "against" the core rules in any way, and allowing for the very
nature of
>>> (meta)human behaviour it is distinctly likely. Of course, this will
>>> remain unconfirmed until FASA introduce inter-racial sex into the game
>>> (unlikely seeing as it's supposed to be a "family" affair - pun
>>> intended).
>
>In reply to the half concept of the Meta-races. It does go against one core
>concept of the main book and the world created by FASA. Genetics it was only
>said and backed up by the rest of the books that one set of getetic type was
>doninant. Ork + Human = one genetic type ( Ork or Human in most cases, Troll
>Dwarf or Elf in some rare cases.) Not Human + Elf = pretty little half
>breed. With bonuses and no penalties either in stats or social discrimination.

Yes I know, I'm aware of the core rules regarding the cross-mating thing
and how the metagene will take over in preference to human genes, but
then *nature* is a strage thing. Put a few female frogs into a tank,
and leave them there, eventually a couple will mutate into males and
vice versa. Nature has a way of dealing with imbalances, and that is
the logic I use to explain the phenomenon in my game. As I have stated
in other posts, I'm not a rules lawyer, so I appreciate that I'm
probably wrong, but then I don't use just the core rules, there is an
awful lot of other stuff I've incorporated as well.

One of my players wanted a half elf, and after we all talked about it
for a while we came up with the above theory (one of us - can't remember
who) mentioned the little speech from Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park
regarding reptiles, and we just considered this in light of human
nature, and mother nature, and decided, that "yes it was *possible*. :)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 61
From: Asher Rosenberg <ASROSENBERG@******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:28:03 -0700
Pete Sims wrote:
>
> That was true in 2054 when the Core book was written, but we're now in
> 2057 (2062 in my game) and as elves are so "pretty" it seems reasonable
> to assume that there is a goodly chance of half elves knocking around,
> half orcs/trolls? Hmm, might be difficult, but there are some strange
> people out there, ISR that in some other games half Orcs/Trolls were
> explained away by their "evil" nature (pillaging/raping that sort of
> thing), but seeing as FASA has decided to protray them differently, this
> would be unworkable. Allowing for mankind's propensity for deviant
> behaviour, yes I can see that there would be half race metahumans
> around. Three years is a long time in *any* world, in SR it's several
> lifetimes.

Good point. Except that Dwarves and ELves have been around since 2011 (SR2, page 23),
while Trolls and Orks started Goblinizing in 2021 (SR2, pg 25). So by 2054 there would
have been more than 40 years for Dwarf/Elf/Human Hybrids to emerge. I think that's more
than enough time for (at least some of) these cross breeds to have emerged, if they
could.


> I do have half race meta's in my world, I don't see that they are
> "against" the core rules in any way, and allowing for the very nature of
> (meta)human behaviour it is distinctly likely. Of course, this will
> remain unconfirmed until FASA introduce inter-racial sex into the game
>

But FASA does discuss inter-racial sex (SR2, page 34) and from what it says there,
half-anythings are very unlikely.

Sorry if I'm getting strident about this, but in my experience, any cross breeding not
specifically mentioned in a Source book almost always has results that magically
metamorphasize into munchkins on their 1st birthday :-).
Players who are not happy with the races (and classes if applicable) that a Gaming
System offers usuallu have anew Race in mind that will unbalance the game.

<<The above is only my opinion. Which means its probably correct.>>
<<But it may be wrong. Stranger things have happened. >>
Message no. 62
From: NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:23:24 -0700
At 12:48 AM 10/8/96 +0100, Pete Sims wrote:
>In article <1.5.4.32.19961006094630.00677644@******.san.uc.edu>,
>NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
>>>> I do have half race meta's in my world, I don't see that they are
>>>> "against" the core rules in any way, and allowing for the very
nature of
>>>> (meta)human behaviour it is distinctly likely. Of course, this will
>>>> remain unconfirmed until FASA introduce inter-racial sex into the game
>>>> (unlikely seeing as it's supposed to be a "family" affair - pun
>>>> intended).
>>
>>In reply to the half concept of the Meta-races. It does go against one core
>>concept of the main book and the world created by FASA. Genetics it was only
>>said and backed up by the rest of the books that one set of getetic type was
>>doninant. Ork + Human = one genetic type ( Ork or Human in most cases, Troll
>>Dwarf or Elf in some rare cases.) Not Human + Elf = pretty little half
>>breed. With bonuses and no penalties either in stats or social discrimination.
>
>Yes I know, I'm aware of the core rules regarding the cross-mating thing
>and how the metagene will take over in preference to human genes, but
>then *nature* is a strage thing. Put a few female frogs into a tank,
>and leave them there, eventually a couple will mutate into males and
>vice versa. Nature has a way of dealing with imbalances, and that is
>the logic I use to explain the phenomenon in my game. As I have stated
>in other posts, I'm not a rules lawyer, so I appreciate that I'm
>probably wrong, but then I don't use just the core rules, there is an
>awful lot of other stuff I've incorporated as well.
>
>One of my players wanted a half elf, and after we all talked about it
>for a while we came up with the above theory (one of us - can't remember
>who) mentioned the little speech from Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park
>regarding reptiles, and we just considered this in light of human
>nature, and mother nature, and decided, that "yes it was *possible*. :)
>
>Pete
>--
>Pete Sims
>Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
>being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
> Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
>
Ok I se it now we've devolved into using movie genetics to get what we want.
And for the frog example 9 times out of 10 the frogs die before the cases of
mutation ever occur.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 63
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 18:08:04 +0000
On 7 Oct 96 at 15:53, Brennan M. O'Keefe wrote:
> Dwarfs make fairly good fighters with strength and body bonuses (not to
> mention a little extra willpower to resist mana bolts), but the problem is
> that Orks and Trolls really overshadow them in this regard. Anyone who
> simply wants a combat monster on general principles will pick one of the
> latter, since they don't expect int/charisma minuses to affect them. The
> only Dwarf PCs I've ever seen in Shadowrun were from players who simply
> liked Dwarfs on principle.
[snip]

Exactly. And it's not nice to pick on dwarfs - they have such a short live
anyway!
Message no. 64
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:16:04 -0600 (MDT)
The Jestyr wrote:
|
|> The metahumans were set at A to enforce realistic ratios of
|> metahumans in the game, as it stands they are a roleplaying option.
|> Use more meta's and you will probably get more variety which is nice
|> but the results are not SR realistic (humans are still 70 odd % of
|> the population, it will reach lower,
|
|Hmmm... I know that in the general population base humans are at least
|70% of the population, but does that necessarily hold true for
|shadowrunners? I know many would see shadowrunning as a 'step up', a way
|out of the low-life rut many metahumans are forced into. I think a
|greater than average percent of metahumans present in shadowrunning could
|be quite realistic.

I don't believe in applying general statistics to small
groups. Currently my gaming group has no female players,
yet 50% of the population are females. Does that mean
we're doing it wrong? Ditto for SR teams. If it turns out
that every single player ends up playing an elven mage then
I don't have a problem with it.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 65
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:25:52 +0000
On 7 Oct 96 at 9:23, NightLife wrote:
[snipped 40 lines]
> Ok I se it now we've devolved into using movie genetics to get what we want.
> And for the frog example 9 times out of 10 the frogs die before the cases of
> mutation ever occur.
Ok, now it's enough. Next time I have to check 30 or 40 or 50 lines of text
which the 3-line does NOT refer to,
I
WILL
SCREAM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 66
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 23:01:40 -0700
> >Oops! Forgot something. Out of curiousity, what game mechanics and stats
do
> >you apply to creating and playing half-races?
> >
> <cheeky mode on>
> Not telling you yet, you said you don't use them :)
>
> Maybe I'll tell you later, when I am less likely to get into trouble
> over it :) - Like around the time FASA confirm their existence. :)
> <cheeky mode off>

Fine! Be that way then. ;o)

I don't actually plan on using them, still one of the reasons would seem
not to have to create a whole other set of modifiers for half-ork,
half-troll, half-dwarf, half-elf, ork/troll mix, ork/dwarf mix, ork/elf
mix, dwarf/elf mix, and so on, and so on. Not to mention if low-light or
thermo would be dominate. Average age/life-span. Where to work half-races
into the prioritization table. It's kinda dizzying, ain't it...

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 67
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:24:15 -0700
<SNIPPED 41 lines if text>
> Ok I se it now we've devolved into using movie genetics to get what we
want.
> And for the frog example 9 times out of 10 the frogs die before the cases
of
> mutation ever occur.

Hey Nightlife, if you're going to rant about people not trimming text so
rampently, next time try snipping some yourself as well.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 68
From: Marty <s457033@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:01:27 +1000 (EST)
> Hey Nightlife, if you're going to rant about people not trimming text so
> rampently, next time try snipping some yourself as well.
>
Hear Hear.
Message no. 69
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:16:01 +0100
In article <199610100553.WAA23803@***.netzone.com>, Loki
<loki@*******.com> writes

[snip]
>> <cheeky mode on>
>> Not telling you yet, you said you don't use them :)
>>
>> Maybe I'll tell you later, when I am less likely to get into trouble
>> over it :) - Like around the time FASA confirm their existence. :)
>> <cheeky mode off>
>
>Fine! Be that way then. ;o)
>
I will, so there ! >:)

>I don't actually plan on using them, still one of the reasons would seem
>not to have to create a whole other set of modifiers for half-ork,
>half-troll, half-dwarf, half-elf, ork/troll mix, ork/dwarf mix, ork/elf
>mix, dwarf/elf mix, and so on, and so on. Not to mention if low-light or
>thermo would be dominate. Average age/life-span. Where to work half-races
>into the prioritization table. It's kinda dizzying, ain't it...

Yes it gets kinda dizzying, but only if you *really* want to work out
the full game mechanics. I only have a half elf in the campaign at the
moment, there was no request for any other race. I allow other races as
well, like the ones you mention, but for the moment, I wing it as
regards these, and only use them as NPCs anyway. At the moment, the
half elf is a sub plot to an ongoing thread that the players have been
embroiled in for several months now, and the character himself is quite
integral to the plot. (Strangely enough it was the creation of this
character that created the sub-plot) Can't give too many details as my
players are lurking in here now.

I still go with the theory that they are possible. I mean let's face
it, depending on which gene became dominant, and what the cross was, how
the hell would you tell anyway. :). (Please don't dig up the tolkien
manuals and such like, as I don't want to get into the "well they look
like this thing") :)

I know FASA have stated how genetic mutation occurs in their system, and
that cross breeding is not possible (I didn't know FASA were racist) :)
OK, they're not really, just didn't want to be tagged as AD&D with guns.
But I still go with my own theory that nature is a strange beast, and
will overcome what is possible and what is not. We will eventually find
out. :)

I like half elves. I have lots of fun with half elves, but then I liked
Spock as well. Nothing like a nice argument with your other half, for
some comic relief. :) OK, so I break the rules - sue me :)

Pete

--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 70
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:19:22 +0100
In article <199610100715.AAA29555@***.netzone.com>, Loki
<loki@*******.com> writes
><SNIPPED 41 lines if text>
>> Ok I se it now we've devolved into using movie genetics to get what we
>want.
>> And for the frog example 9 times out of 10 the frogs die before the cases
>of
>> mutation ever occur.
>
>Hey Nightlife, if you're going to rant about people not trimming text so
>rampently, next time try snipping some yourself as well.
>
In reply to Nightlife's rant about movie genetics ( and further
admittance that it's real life too) 9 times out of 10 they fail, means
1 time in 10 there is a mutation. Reflected in game terms, it can be
transalated as

9 times out of 10 = true elf
1 time in 10 = half elf
the metagene is stronger, so there will be elven influence in the
appearance.

Thankyou very much Nightlife for so adequately confirming my usage of
half elves. See. Loki, it's been confirmed by Mr. Scientist there. It
*can* happen. :) :)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Message no. 71
From: Peter <wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 23:35:38 -0600
Loki wrote:

[SNIP inciting post and my _first_ paragraph]

>> Now, if you meant to say that they are the _target_ of less racism,
>> then I agree with you. Especially when dealing with Humans, they
>> are accepted much more than the other meta-races.
>>
>> Piatro
>
>I think he was meaning that elves aren't as prone to being the target of
>racism as are the golinized races. Elves are more a novelty, big in
>entertainment industries, or some corp's sexual trophy...they're attractive
>and have alot of myth and fairy tale behind them. You're born an ef or a
>dwarf.
>
>The orks and trolls weren't born that way to begin with. The "monkeyed out"
>for weeks, torturing in hospitals and clinics. It was paniful, their
>screams heard through the halls. The majority went slightly unbalanced
>during the frist few epidemics of goblinization which attributes to
>societies belief of orks being short-fused and violent, not to mention
>media coining the words goblinization, orks and trolls. I'm sure there were
>movies and tri-vid mini-series that didn't help matters either.
>
>I think this was the point Caric was trying to make.
>

I realize that, please read the _entire_ post before responding to it.

Piatro
Message no. 72
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:38:48 -0700
Snip
>Thankyou very much Nightlife for so adequately confirming my usage of
>half elves. See. Loki, it's been confirmed by Mr. Scientist there. It
>*can* happen. :) :)
>
Your getting desperate to confrim your idea's aren't you? Oh by way the 1
time that mutation occured. The hormone levels were articifically changed.
So without radiation, chemicals, hormone therapy, etc.... it isn't going to
anturally happen. There! Do what you want thats just a reality check for you.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 73
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 01:47:44 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961010233848.0066d190@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
>Snip
>>Thankyou very much Nightlife for so adequately confirming my usage of
>>half elves. See. Loki, it's been confirmed by Mr. Scientist there. It
>>*can* happen. :) :)
>>
>Your getting desperate to confrim your idea's aren't you? Oh by way the 1
>time that mutation occured. The hormone levels were articifically changed.
>So without radiation, chemicals, hormone therapy, etc.... it isn't going to
>anturally happen. There! Do what you want thats just a reality check for you.

Not particularly, it was originally only an observation on the fact that
I do allow them. Fasa said in the core rules this was not possible. I
don't believe them. I think that this is biologically inaccurate. but
then it is only *my* opinion. Many people couldn't give a damn what my
opinion is, as they stick to the core ruling, and save themselves the
hassle of dealing with it. Desperate to prove a point, NAH!! That's
why I stuck the smileys on it - a joke... :) Unfortunately I did use
your reply as the foil for the joke, but well, it was there :) :)

One question though, what's reality???? :)
This is Shadowrun, Shadowrun is Science Fiction/Fantasy, and has no
bearing on *reality* :) :) <ducks out of sight>

Pete
--
Pete Sims
And when I shall die, take him and cut him out in little stars, and he will make
the face of heaven so fine, that all the world will be in love with night, and
pay no worship to the garish sun.
Message no. 74
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:23:09 -0700
>I do allow them. Fasa said in the core rules this was not possible. I
>don't believe them. I think that this is biologically inaccurate. but
>then it is only *my* opinion. Many people couldn't give a damn what my
>opinion is, as they stick to the core ruling, and save themselves the
>hassle of dealing with it. Desperate to prove a point, NAH!! That's
>why I stuck the smileys on it - a joke... :) Unfortunately I did use
>your reply as the foil for the joke, but well, it was there :) :)
>
>One question though, what's reality???? :)
>This is Shadowrun, Shadowrun is Science Fiction/Fantasy, and has no
>bearing on *reality* :) :) <ducks out of sight>
>
>Pete

ARRGGHH! Ok never mind it just a game that doesn't have a real bearing. i
just thought is was a quasi scientific debate. Ohhh what did i do to myself
when I joined this list.
<grin> You can't hide I'll find you < Grin > :) See I'm in a much better
mood. ;)


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 75
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 06:52:23 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961014072309.00687d58@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes

[snip poor Nightlife being used as butt of joke]
>>One question though, what's reality???? :)
>>This is Shadowrun, Shadowrun is Science Fiction/Fantasy, and has no
>>bearing on *reality* :) :) <ducks out of sight>
>>
>>Pete
>
>ARRGGHH! Ok never mind it just a game that doesn't have a real bearing. i
>just thought is was a quasi scientific debate. Ohhh what did i do to myself
>when I joined this list.
><grin> You can't hide I'll find you < Grin > :) See I'm in a much better
>mood. ;)

Now really Nightlife... you should have figured out that I was one of
the less than sensible posters on this list, by the simple fact that i
used Jurassic Parkas part of the argument for crying out loud :) :)

Not exactly based in scientifc fact was it :) Even though some of it
had vague referneces to factual material, Mr Spielberg did get a bit
silly. :)

Never mind, You have been recognised by one of the nutters in here. And
when a nutter has found you he rarely let's go.

Do you like weddings ???? <rips up travel pass and throws bits in the
air> I lurve weddings :)


Pete
--
Pete Sims
Message no. 76
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 02:40:01 -0700
>Do you like weddings ???? <rips up travel pass and throws bits in the
>air> I lurve weddings :)
>
>
>Pete
I personally advocate eloping. But I don't "Lurve" them I not even sure what
"Lurve" means. < grin >


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 77
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:46:00 +0100
<SNIP>
> Fasa said in the core rules this <half meta-races> was not possible.
I
> don't believe them. I think that this is biologically inaccurate.

If today's biological laws still applied to the 6th world, why all the
hoop-la to try and uncover the meta-gene factors. Science in the S/R
universe is no longer the only law. Magic kinda punted standard
scientific
theory out the door. Maybe biologically it's in accurate, but magically
it
doesn't have to be...

Try adding the magical factor into the frog experiment and see what
things
develop. ;o)

Before you go there, I know...it's your game. I just had to add my .02
worth. :o)

@>-,--'--- Loki

Erm... didn't Spielberg already cover the magical aspect... He made
dinosaurs out of frog DNA, :) :)

Pete <the about to get in trouble again SAD person>

--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 78
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:00:33 -0700
Yep your in trouble again. Lets see.

>If today's biological laws still applied to the 6th world, why all the
>hoop-la to try and uncover the meta-gene factors. Science in the S/R
>universe is no longer the only law. Magic kinda punted standard
>scientific
>theory out the door. Maybe biologically it's in accurate, but magically
>it
>doesn't have to be...

They postulum behind that is the genes manifest when energy(magic) saturates
the gene activating it.


>Try adding the magical factor into the frog experiment and see what
>things
>develop. ;o)


Ok. 10 dead magically charged frogs. maybe even awakened frogs but still dead.
Remember this isn't D&D magic is a detectabe energy form. Not the D&D
magical energy web.

snip

>Erm... didn't Spielberg already cover the magical aspect... He made
>dinosaurs out of frog DNA, :) :)
>
No he didn't he used the frog DNA to replace strands that were to damaged to
be use able and to add the capability to induce a full male to female
transition making it easier to do in the lab. Not just secondary
characteristics. He however forgot highly revelant info about the reptile
world. As for the ones in the "wild" changing remember in crocs the
temperature determines the sex of a egg. Warm = female, cool = male. So
there is a likely explination for the chages in the wild. Assuming all
revelant genetic factors. Now if you want to take this to the mad scientist
realm making a hybrid would likely reslut in a couple of ways. One in this
forced meger a sterile being incapable of reproduction. Two a very damaged
being(?) if you coukld call the reslut of this experiment anything but a
abomination. I.E. deformed, retarded, etc...... In a closer non hostile unin
tarits would have to be chosen one by one starnd by stand. Still likely to
result in a sterile being. Or only capable of reproducing with a like
creature. If the reproductive abilites couple be preserved somehow. this a
almost guarented reslut. Hybrid + Human = Human, Hybrid + Elf = Elf assuming
the hybrid if the half-elf varity you get the idea. A non hybrid say a dwarf
+ hybrid = 1 sterile mutant, or 2. nothing, 3. still born mutant. once again
you get the idea.
However changing the sex of a creature has no bearing on craeting a hybrid.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 79
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:50:43 -0700
> >Erm... didn't Spielberg already cover the magical aspect... He made
> >dinosaurs out of frog DNA, :) :)

> Now if you want to take this to the mad scientist
> realm making a hybrid would likely reslut in a couple of ways. One in this
> forced meger a sterile being incapable of reproduction. Two a very damaged
> being(?) if you coukld call the reslut of this experiment anything but a
> abomination. I.E. deformed, retarded, etc.
<SNIP Technobabble>

Anyone else out there read the sequel to Jurassic Park?
It's called The Lost World, and it describes exactly the scenario you
describe here.

For that matter in the SR world, check out the original Striper story in
"Into the Shadows."
Everyone's favorite were-kitten fights a hybrid Orc/Troll called an
Uruk-Hai.
It was certainly violent, and pretty close to what I'd call retarded and
an abomination.
Message no. 80
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:06:28 -0700
><SNIP Technobabble>
>
>Anyone else out there read the sequel to Jurassic Park?
>It's called The Lost World, and it describes exactly the scenario you
>describe here.
>
>For that matter in the SR world, check out the original Striper story in
>"Into the Shadows."
>Everyone's favorite were-kitten fights a hybrid Orc/Troll called an
>Uruk-Hai.
>It was certainly violent, and pretty close to what I'd call retarded and
>an abomination.
>
Snipping my technobabble. Ehh...<grin>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 81
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:37:39 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961016060033.006646e4@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
>Yep your in trouble again. Lets see.

What me, never :) I;m much to slippery (must be all those carps I keep
attracting :)

[snip]
>>theory out the door. Maybe biologically it's in accurate, but magically
>>it
>>doesn't have to be...
>
>They postulum behind that is the genes manifest when energy(magic) saturates
>the gene activating it.

Yeah, agreed, the higher the mana level the more the metagene manifests
and the more metahumans there are. :)

>>Try adding the magical factor into the frog experiment and see what
>>things
>>develop. ;o)
>
>Ok. 10 dead magically charged frogs. maybe even awakened frogs but still dead.
>Remember this isn't D&D magic is a detectabe energy form. Not the D&D
>magical energy web.

Oh no not more frogs <hops off to next paragraph>

[snip]
>>Erm... didn't Spielberg already cover the magical aspect... He made
>>dinosaurs out of frog DNA, :) :)
>>
>No he didn't he used the frog DNA to replace strands that were to damaged to

Ok I was a bit generic with the comment, but it was only used loosely :)

[snip]
>revelant genetic factors. Now if you want to take this to the mad scientist
>realm making a hybrid would likely reslut in a couple of ways. One in this
>forced meger a sterile being incapable of reproduction. Two a very damaged
>being(?) if you coukld call the reslut of this experiment anything but a
>abomination. I.E. deformed, retarded, etc...... In a closer non hostile unin
>tarits would have to be chosen one by one starnd by stand. Still likely to
>result in a sterile being. Or only capable of reproducing with a like
>creature. If the reproductive abilites couple be preserved somehow. this a
>almost guarented reslut. Hybrid + Human = Human, Hybrid + Elf = Elf assuming
>the hybrid if the half-elf varity you get the idea. A non hybrid say a dwarf
>+ hybrid = 1 sterile mutant, or 2. nothing, 3. still born mutant. once again
>you get the idea.
>However changing the sex of a creature has no bearing on craeting a hybrid.

I must admit to a bit of confusion here, the sex question arose as a
matter of humour in another area... and seems to have carried over. :(

As regards hybrids, this gets into the realms of genetic experimentation
and research, not a field that I have *any* knowledge about bar what is
sensationalised in the press, or murdered in the movies, so I'm not
going to get drawn into the mad scientist debate. I *still* think that
FASA were a little harsh in their usage of *pure* stock only.

That is merely my decision and my usage in my game. I was not trying,
at any point to say that half races *must* exist because.... Just that
half breeds *could* exist. I use them because I have several ongoing
plots where these are in fact central to the theme. It became easier to
use half race than *pure* race, seeing as the scenario is based on
racism from two opposing factions, and refelcts upon the "mutant" half
races caught in the middle of it all. One of the players is half race,
hence the creation of these creatures.

It does appear that a simple reply to a question posted elsewhere has
got a little carried away.. I have no wish to get into a long debate
about the logical medical/genetic/natural/hysterical reasoning behind
it, I do not possess the necessary scientific knowledge to carry out
that kind of a debate.

I use them... I see no *real* reason why they cannot exist. Other
creatures have been thought to be impossible, yet *they* exist. It is
only recently that we have begun to understand certain things about
prehistory, things that heretofore were considered *impossible*. as a
reference point, faster than light travel is *impossible*, but that
doesn't mean that in 60 years it still will be, the same for time
travel. :)

Yes I know I'm getting a little esoterical, and thrashing around a bit.
But the point is I'm not up on a soap box, saying half races etc must be
possible because *I* say so. I don't, all I did was suggest that they
*may* be *possible*. Evetually in further source material this subject
may be covered again by FASA, maybe it won't, but one day we will know.
Until then I will continue to use half races. It is not any kind of
order that other people should. Merely a different view of a world.
Hell just because the rules don't have a colony on the moon in 60 years
doesn't mean there isn't one. :)

I am now leaving this debate before I *really* get myself into trouble
:) :)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Message no. 82
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:13:25 -0700
>I must admit to a bit of confusion here, the sex question arose as a
>matter of humour in another area... and seems to have carried over. :(

One of you guys. You know I even remember why that was used as a example.
Not to be cruel, but it was way off the hybrid concept.

>I *still* think that FASA were a little harsh in their usage of *pure*
stock >only.

Ok your opinion.

>I use them... I see no *real* reason why they cannot exist. Other
>creatures have been thought to be impossible, yet *they* exist. It is
>only recently that we have begun to understand certain things about
>prehistory, things that heretofore were considered *impossible*. as a
>reference point, faster than light travel is *impossible*, but that
>doesn't mean that in 60 years it still will be, the same for time
>travel. :)

Impossible was never said by me. Just 99.99% improbable.

>Hell just because the rules don't have a colony on the moon in 60 years
>doesn't mean there isn't one. :)

Ok another not to great example. That one thing we have the tech for right now.
<grin>

>I am now leaving this debate before I *really* get myself into trouble
>:) :)

So you're giving up huh? Maybe it's time for a victory dance <grin>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 83
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:53:40 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961016081325.0068d29c@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
>>I must admit to a bit of confusion here, the sex question arose as a
>>matter of humour in another area... and seems to have carried over. :(
>
>One of you guys. You know I even remember why that was used as a example.
>Not to be cruel, but it was way off the hybrid concept.

Probably me actually, I seem to recall mentioning Frogs once. :) Though
I'm sure it had nothing to do with sex, just that occassionally if left
alone long enough .... Oh no, you're not getting me on that one again :)

>>I *still* think that FASA were a little harsh in their usage of *pure*
>stock >only.
>
>Ok your opinion.

No it's not it's his opinion, my opinion collapsed ages ago :)

>>doesn't mean that in 60 years it still will be, the same for time
>>travel. :)
>
>Impossible was never said by me. Just 99.99% improbable.

Ah, but once you have illiminated the impossible whatever remains
however imporbable must be the truth :)
Thankyou Conan Doyle ) :) :) :)

>>Hell just because the rules don't have a colony on the moon in 60 years
>>doesn't mean there isn't one. :)
>
>Ok another not to great example. That one thing we have the tech for right now.
><grin>

Hey, I never claimed to be *good* with examples :)
I *like* clutching at straws :)

>>I am now leaving this debate before I *really* get myself into trouble
>>:) :)
>
>So you're giving up huh? Maybe it's time for a victory dance <grin>

In best Lion King voice "Is that a challenge?"

Pete :)

--
Pete Sims
When in doubt, make it sound convincing.
Message no. 84
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:53:35 -0700
>Probably me actually, I seem to recall mentioning Frogs once. :) Though
>I'm sure it had nothing to do with sex, just that occassionally if left
>alone long enough .... Oh no, you're not getting me on that one again :)

Actually I think if my memory serves it was the idea of sex being changed by
a lick of males in a group.

>No it's not it's his opinion, my opinion collapsed ages ago :)

Hmmm.... ;-)


>Ah, but once you have illiminated the impossible whatever remains
>however imporbable must be the truth :)
>Thankyou Conan Doyle ) :) :) :)

Nice try. ;-)


>Hey, I never claimed to be *good* with examples :)
>I *like* clutching at straws :)

Just grab one that a little more secure. Geez I just had aviod something
that couls have been taken as a sexual innuendo.

>In best Lion King voice "Is that a challenge?"
>

Hey when there a gauntlet on the ground I'll always pick it up. I just kind
of that way.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 85
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:02:40 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961017065335.00687ebc@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU> writes
>>Probably me actually, I seem to recall mentioning Frogs once. :) Though
>>I'm sure it had nothing to do with sex, just that occassionally if left
>>alone long enough .... Oh no, you're not getting me on that one again :)
>
>Actually I think if my memory serves it was the idea of sex being changed by
>a lick of males in a group.
>
A what of males??? That's right, natural genetic expression :) I
remember now :)

>>No it's not it's his opinion, my opinion collapsed ages ago :)
>
>Hmmm.... ;-)
>
>
>>Ah, but once you have illiminated the impossible whatever remains
>>however imporbable must be the truth :)
>>Thankyou Conan Doyle ) :) :) :)
>
>Nice try. ;-)
>

But nevertheless irrefutable :)

>
>>Hey, I never claimed to be *good* with examples :)
>>I *like* clutching at straws :)
>
>Just grab one that a little more secure. Geez I just had aviod something
>that couls have been taken as a sexual innuendo.

Close, but no cigar :)

>
>>In best Lion King voice "Is that a challenge?"
>>
>
>Hey when there a gauntlet on the ground I'll always pick it up. I just kind
>of that way.

Nah!!! I hadn't noticed :) ...

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Message no. 86
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Metahumans
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:45:03 -0700
>A what of males??? That's right, natural genetic expression :) I
>remember now :)


Actually I meant to say lack of males before. Just poor typing skills on my
part.


>But nevertheless irrefutable :)


Only in dectitive novels. Try that in quantum physics.


>Close, but no cigar :)

Oh a Freudian slip I see. Remember in Freuds own words sometime a cigar is
just a cigar.


>Nah!!! I hadn't noticed :) ...

You're to kind. ;-)


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Further Reading

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