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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Mon Feb 19 09:20:01 2001
1. Can someone give me a step by step example in game mechanics of
kicking a door in?

2. I always forget this one. :(

3. Currently my group is searching for a shadowrunner who's gone
missing. His sister is awakened(they got the run through the common
talismonger). That was about as far plot wise as I figured out last
night while we were playing. Anyone have any suggestions?

Bai Shen
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Mon Feb 19 11:45:03 2001
On 2/19/01 10:33 am, Bai Shen said:

>1. Can someone give me a step by step example in game mechanics of
>kicking a door in?
>


Lift foot

Turn your body sideways to the door

Lean back away from the door

rapidly shify your weight forward towards the door as you kick your
elevated foot towards the door

Be careful to aim for a point close to the latching mechanism

Repeat as necessary.


Steve


(sorry I just couldn't resist) :-)
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Mon Feb 19 13:35:01 2001
According to Bai Shen, on Mon, 19 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> 1. Can someone give me a step by step example in game mechanics of
> kicking a door in?

This is actually extremely simple: first of all you compare the character's
Strength against the Barrier Rating of the door. Figure out whether the
character's Strength is less than one-half; less than or equal to; or
greater than the Barrier Rating, and apply the relevant result from the
Barrier Effect Table on page 124 of SR3 to the door. If it reaches one-half
its original Barrier Rating, the door opens.

A more concrete example requires a character -- let's call him G.N. Pig,
who happens to have a Strength of 4 -- and a door, let's say of Barrier
Rating 5.

G.N.'s Strength is more than one-half the Barrier Rating, but does not
exceed it. Therefore, when G.N. kicks the door, its Barrier Rating is
reduced by 1 (SR3, p. 124) and is now 4. This is not one-half the original
rating, so the door doesn't open yet.

For his second kick, his Strength also does not exceed the Barrier Rating
(they are equal) so another point comes off, making the Barrier Rating 3.
Still not below one-half the original rating, so the door remains shut.

G.N. now gives a big shove against the door with his shoulder, putting his
Strength of 4 against the door's current rating of 3. His Strength is now
higher than the Barrier Rating, so the latter is reduced by 1, making it
2, and thereby opening the door. However, because the Power Level is one
point higher than the current Barrier Rating (4 - 3 = 1) G.N. not just
opens the door, but actually pushes his shoulder _through_ to open a
one-half meter diameter hole...

> 3. Currently my group is searching for a shadowrunner who's gone
> missing. His sister is awakened(they got the run through the common
> talismonger). That was about as far plot wise as I figured out last
> night while we were playing. Anyone have any suggestions?

Tie-in to the other thread: put the runner behind a magical barrier, else
the sister just needs to summon a watcher and that was your adventure :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
afblinken
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Mon Feb 19 13:40:04 2001
> > 1. Can someone give me a step by step example in game mechanics of
> > kicking a door in?
> This is actually extremely simple: first of all you compare the character's
> Strength against the Barrier Rating of the door. Figure out whether the
> character's Strength is less than one-half; less than or equal to; or
> greater than the Barrier Rating, and apply the relevant result from the
> Barrier Effect Table on page 124 of SR3 to the door. If it reaches one-half
> its original Barrier Rating, the door opens.

So there's no success test used? Why is there a number of successes
listed?

> A more concrete example requires a character -- let's call him G.N. Pig,
> who happens to have a Strength of 4 -- and a door, let's say of Barrier
> Rating 5.

-snip example-

Thanks, that helped some. :)

> > 3. Currently my group is searching for a shadowrunner who's gone
> > missing. His sister is awakened(they got the run through the common
> > talismonger). That was about as far plot wise as I figured out last
> > night while we were playing. Anyone have any suggestions?
> Tie-in to the other thread: put the runner behind a magical barrier, else
> the sister just needs to summon a watcher and that was your adventure :)

I figured that much.-grin- I jus' haven't decided what I want to have
happened to the brother.

Bai Shen
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Mon Feb 19 13:50:04 2001
According to Bai Shen, on Mon, 19 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

>> 1. Can someone give me a step by step example in game mechanics of
>> kicking a door in?

> This is actually extremely simple: first of all you compare the
character's
> Strength against the Barrier Rating of the door. Figure out whether the
> character's Strength is less than one-half; less than or equal to; or
> greater than the Barrier Rating, and apply the relevant result from the
> Barrier Effect Table on page 124 of SR3 to the door. If it reaches
one-half
> its original Barrier Rating, the door opens.

[Lots deleted for brevity]

I think this is a potentially bad example. The strength of a door isn't
usually the door itself, but how well the latching mechanism works with the
door frame. You don't kick down a door, you kick OUT the latch. That's
why you're supposed to kick right by the handle.

Personally, I wouldn't try to make some complicated rule. Just wing it.
The average Str 4 character should be able to kick in your average door. If
it is a steel door set directly into concrete .. they aren't going to kick
it down. Use the barrier rules that Gurth suggested. But odds are in 2060
they're still using wood and/or cheap plastic for doorframes in normal,
non-security settings. Afterall, if it is a security setting, they
shouldn't be able to knock down the door without explosives or a vehicle.

-Meatnog
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Mon Feb 19 21:30:00 2001
> I think this is a potentially bad example. The strength of a door
isn't usually the door itself, but how well the latching mechanism
works with the door frame. You don't kick down a door, you kick OUT
the latch. That's why you're supposed to kick right by the handle.

You're right, of course, the latch/frame might be weaker than the
door. So might the hinges. You might be able to represent this by
allowing an Athletics test to increase Strength (like a test to
improveyour Quickness for the purposes of running). Then maybe
they'll get it in one try, maybe in four.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 00:05:01 2001
>> > 1. Can someone give me a step by step example in game mechanics of
>> > kicking a door in?
>> This is actually extremely simple: first of all you compare the
character's
>> Strength against the Barrier Rating of the door. Figure out whether the
>> character's Strength is less than one-half; less than or equal to; or
>> greater than the Barrier Rating, and apply the relevant result from the
>> Barrier Effect Table on page 124 of SR3 to the door. If it reaches
one-half
>> its original Barrier Rating, the door opens.
>
>So there's no success test used? Why is there a number of successes
>listed?

You could make an attack on the door- melee attacks increase in power once
you stage them past D, so a good attack might take the door down even if you
aren't normally strong enough to do it in one hit.

-mongoose
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 00:05:04 2001
> > I think this is a potentially bad example. The
strength of a door isn't usually the door itself, but
how well the latching mechanism works with the door
frame. You don't kick down a door, you kick OUT the
latch. That's why you're supposed to kick right by
the handle.
>
> You're right, of course, the latch/frame might be
weaker than the door. So might the hinges. You might
be able to represent this by allowing an Athletics
test to increase Strength (like a test to improve your
Quickness for the purposes of running). Then maybe
they'll get it in one try, maybe in four.
> -Boondocker

But what's the point of an adept getting the Smashing
Blow power, then? Would you only use this rule where
the target has a demonstrable weak point (the hinges
or latch), so that only adepts have a chance of doing
stuff like punching through a concrete wall?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 05:55:01 2001
According to Michael Yacht, on Mon, 19 Feb 2001 the word on the street
was...

> I think this is a potentially bad example. The strength of a door isn't
> usually the door itself, but how well the latching mechanism works with the
> door frame. You don't kick down a door, you kick OUT the latch. That's
> why you're supposed to kick right by the handle.

Agreed in principle, but what I was doing was explaining the rules as they
are in SR3, which is what was asked. A Barrier Rating 5 door will open at
the third kick/punch/shove of a Strength 4 character, and that's basically
that...

> Personally, I wouldn't try to make some complicated rule. Just wing it.
> The average Str 4 character should be able to kick in your average door. If
> it is a steel door set directly into concrete .. they aren't going to kick
> it down. Use the barrier rules that Gurth suggested. But odds are in 2060
> they're still using wood and/or cheap plastic for doorframes in normal,
> non-security settings. Afterall, if it is a security setting, they
> shouldn't be able to knock down the door without explosives or a vehicle.

Let's see if I have this straight: first you say the example isn't a very
good one, and then you propose doing exactly what the example was there to
clarify?

The easiest way of doing this, is to use the lower of the Barrier Ratings
of the door and the doorframe. A BR 10 door in a BR 2 doorframe will be
easy to kick open because the latch and/or hinges will rip from the
doorframe. A BR 2 door in a BR 10 doorway will be just as easy to open, but
now because the door itself will break when you try to kick it in. The game
rules used are the same, though, as is the net result.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
afblinken
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 05:55:08 2001
According to Bai Shen, on Mon, 19 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

[kicking down doors]
> So there's no success test used?

Precisely. Just about everyone I've ever played SR with when this came up,
wants to roll their Strength to break down a door. BTB, though, no roll is
necessary at all.

> Why is there a number of successes listed?

Where? The rules for breaking through barriers on SR3 page 125 don't list
any kind of test at all in my copy of that book.

> Thanks, that helped some. :)

It's much quicker if you get yourself a table showing Power Level vs.
Barrier Ratings -- all you need to do is cross-reference the two, so
there's no need for the calculations. And you're in luck, NAGEE 7 at
http://plastic.dumpshock.com/nagee has just such a table :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
afblinken
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 09:50:01 2001
> > So there's no success test used?
> Precisely. Just about everyone I've ever played SR with when this came up,
> wants to roll their Strength to break down a door. BTB, though, no roll is
> necessary at all.

-chuckle- I see.-grin-

> > Why is there a number of successes listed?
> Where? The rules for breaking through barriers on SR3 page 125 don't list
> any kind of test at all in my copy of that book.

Right able the table that shows the power level vs effect. It lists a
number of successes.

> > Thanks, that helped some. :)
> It's much quicker if you get yourself a table showing Power Level vs.
> Barrier Ratings -- all you need to do is cross-reference the two, so
> there's no need for the calculations. And you're in luck, NAGEE 7 at
> http://plastic.dumpshock.com/nagee has just such a table :)

Coo. I'll check it out. :)

Bai Shen
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 09:50:04 2001
> It's much quicker if you get yourself a table showing Power Level vs.
> Barrier Ratings -- all you need to do is cross-reference the two, so
> there's no need for the calculations. And you're in luck, NAGEE 7 at
> http://plastic.dumpshock.com/nagee has just such a table :)

Maybe I'm lookin' in the wrong place, but I didn't see a table anywhere.

Bai Shen
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 13:55:03 2001
According to Bai Shen, on Tue, 20 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> > > Why is there a number of successes listed?
> > Where? The rules for breaking through barriers on SR3 page 125 don't list
> > any kind of test at all in my copy of that book.
>
> Right able the table that shows the power level vs effect. It lists a
> number of successes.

Assuming you're looking at the table at the bottom right of page 124 in the
SR3 main rules, that's actually another table -- the Barrier Effect Table
is the lower part of the gray box, and it doesn't have any successes on it
at all. The upper (narrower) part of the gray box is for a _character_
avoiding being knocked down when taking damage. This is for use with the
Knockdown rules in the left-hand column, and doesn't have anything to do
with the Barriers rules on pages 124-125.

It would have been better if the Barrier Rating Table and Barrier Effect
Table had been put into a single box, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
afblinken
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 13:55:12 2001
According to Bai Shen, on Tue, 20 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> > It's much quicker if you get yourself a table showing Power Level vs.
> > Barrier Ratings -- all you need to do is cross-reference the two, so
> > there's no need for the calculations. And you're in luck, NAGEE 7 at
> > http://plastic.dumpshock.com/nagee has just such a table :)
>
> Maybe I'm lookin' in the wrong place, but I didn't see a table anywhere.

It's in the Shadow U. article, if I'm not mistaken at
http://plastic.dumpshock.com/html/nagee/7/shadow%20u.html -- scroll down the
page until you get to the barriers section. Alternatively, download the PDF
and turn to that article.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
afblinken
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mike & Linda Frankl)
Subject: More Q's
Date: Tue Feb 20 17:20:01 2001
Boonie said:
> > I think this is a potentially bad example. The strength of a door
> isn't usually the door itself, but how well the latching mechanism
> works with the door frame. You don't kick down a door, you kick OUT
> the latch. That's why you're supposed to kick right by the handle.
>
> You're right, of course, the latch/frame might be weaker than the
> door. So might the hinges. You might be able to represent this by
> allowing an Athletics test to increase Strength (like a test to
> improveyour Quickness for the purposes of running). Then maybe
> they'll get it in one try, maybe in four.

There is also the school of thought that the door ratings are already
focused on breaking the latch or other weaker components as opposed to
thinking just about the actual door material. The concept of the barrier
rating might considered too literally in the initial posted example.

;)

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/

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