Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:15:12 -0400
Last night I posted an idea about a teleport spell using
clones, and that lead me to think about something else. You
can use DNA like a blood sample, skin, or hair as a ritual
link. Now what if the target of the ritual has a clone? Since
this clone's DNA is an exact replica of the target's, what
happens to the ritual spell? Does it affect the target, the
clone, or both simultaneously?

Let's say it's the latter (which is the result I am leaning
toward); consider this. Let's say a mage wants to take out a
large group of people in one fell swoop (like a rioting mob,
or an enemy army). Insert a group of clones (all alike) into
the mob at spaced intervals. The mage then casts a ritual into
the target; one of the clones, or the original. The spell will
ground out through all the clones. If an area effect physical
spell was cast, a very large area could be covered. The clones
would probably get wasted, but so would a lot of people in the
target area.
What do you think? Feasible, whacked-out, or just plain silly?

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 2
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:15:11 -0700
Tim Kerby wrote:

> Last night I posted an idea about a teleport spell using
> clones, and that lead me to think about something else. You
> can use DNA like a blood sample, skin, or hair as a ritual
> link. Now what if the target of the ritual has a clone? Since
> this clone's DNA is an exact replica of the target's, what
> happens to the ritual spell? Does it affect the target, the
> clone, or both simultaneously?

Ritual magic still targets a person's *aura*, not genes; the genetic
material simply gives an insight as to an individual's aura. Although
genetically identical, the two clones would have different auras - just
like real-life twins have slightly different experiences that does
indeed make them different people.

I think it'd be a pretty cool game effect if there were two people who
'shared an aura'; although a spell might not ground through both of them
simultaneously, there might be sympathetic or reverberent effects.

You'd have lots of weird mojo if this thing happened on a more general
level, though. Remember that iedntical twins are 'clones', genetically
speaking; not to mention that cloning happens on a commercial level in
SR - you'd not only hellblast the target, but fry the bio-liver implant
DocWagon was growing for him :)

Two final nails in the coffin:

To my understanding, clones can't become fully viable human beings, so
you couldn't just have them walk out into the crowd. Maybe have them
wheeled out in wheelchairs?

Also, you should be able to see *everybody* in the crowd (some a bit
more indistinctly than others) and so you wouldn't have to worry about
grounding through clones. Regardless of that their aura looks like, if
they're out of the area of effect in the astral, they're not going to be
affected by the spell - so no grounding out through them.

Interesting idea of similar auras, though - something I've been mucking
about with myself, with no great outcome.


- Matt

------------------------------------
In a dark time, the eye begins to see. - T. Roethke

GridSec: SRCard
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 3
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:15:12 -0400
> Last night I posted an idea about a teleport spell using
> clones, and that lead me to think about something else. You
> can use DNA like a blood sample, skin, or hair as a ritual
> link. Now what if the target of the ritual has a clone? Since
> this clone's DNA is an exact replica of the target's, what
> happens to the ritual spell? Does it affect the target, the
> clone, or both simultaneously?

My ever so humble guess is that magic is "smart" enough to be able to
figure out which clone the DNA sample came from... after all, there'd be
differences in the tissue from any two peopl, evenif they had the same
DNA... (different experiences of the clones would cause different
chemical balances and a host of other things)

>
>
> Let's say it's the latter (which is the result I am leaning
> toward); consider this. Let's say a mage wants to take out a
> large group of people in one fell swoop (like a rioting mob,
> or an enemy army). Insert a group of clones (all alike) into
> the mob at spaced intervals. The mage then casts a ritual into
> the target; one of the clones, or the original. The spell will
> ground out through all the clones. If an area effect physical
> spell was cast, a very large area could be covered. The clones
> would probably get wasted, but so would a lot of people in the
> target area.
> What do you think? Feasible, whacked-out, or just plain silly?

Even if the magic did effect all of the clones equally, I beleive the
BBB says that you can't ritually cast combat spells... maybe a good
damaging manipulation spell, though..

>
>
> - Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -



--
Stonebow
The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other
bastard die for his.
-George Patton
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:28:59 -0500
>
> Last night I posted an idea about a teleport spell using
> clones, and that lead me to think about something else. You
> can use DNA like a blood sample, skin, or hair as a ritual
> link. Now what if the target of the ritual has a clone? Since
> this clone's DNA is an exact replica of the target's, what
> happens to the ritual spell? Does it affect the target, the
> clone, or both simultaneously?
>
> Let's say it's the latter (which is the result I am leaning
> toward); consider this. Let's say a mage wants to take out a
> large group of people in one fell swoop (like a rioting mob,
> or an enemy army). Insert a group of clones (all alike) into
> the mob at spaced intervals. The mage then casts a ritual into
> the target; one of the clones, or the original. The spell will
> ground out through all the clones. If an area effect physical
> spell was cast, a very large area could be covered. The clones
> would probably get wasted, but so would a lot of people in the
> target area.
> What do you think? Feasible, whacked-out, or just plain silly?
>
Ouch. An interesting idea, and depending on how you use/define
clones I could see it being plausible. The real question is, how
does a clone connect to the original "astrally". In my game I'd
never allow it, since clones aren't pass the harvesting organ
stages.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be broken.
Message no. 5
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:19:15 +0200
> Last night I posted an idea about a teleport spell using
> clones, and that lead me to think about something else. You
> can use DNA like a blood sample, skin, or hair as a ritual
> link. Now what if the target of the ritual has a clone? Since
> this clone's DNA is an exact replica of the target's, what
> happens to the ritual spell? Does it affect the target, the
> clone, or both simultaneously?

IMO, DNA is distinct from aura. And a spell uses aura synchronization to
get its effect done. So, the target is the one from which you took the sample.
Please remember that a clone is only a subject with the DNA as you. I don't
think DNA is the only thing that makes us who we are...

> Let's say it's the latter (which is the result I am leaning
> toward); consider this. Let's say a mage wants to take out a
> large group of people in one fell swoop (like a rioting mob,
> or an enemy army). Insert a group of clones (all alike) into
> the mob at spaced intervals. The mage then casts a ritual into
> the target; one of the clones, or the original. The spell will
> ground out through all the clones. If an area effect physical
> spell was cast, a very large area could be covered. The clones
> would probably get wasted, but so would a lot of people in the
> target area.
> What do you think? Feasible, whacked-out, or just plain silly?

Nope IMO (see above). Anyway, you have more easier way to handle that :
1/ Cast a big spell. You increase the radius by 2 meters for each die. You
can also use fetish foci to increase the pool (it's to you if it also
increases the range). If you cast it during a ritual, you will add the
different pools together.
2/ If you allow a ritual to be targeted at many targets by using multiple
samples (this isn't SR canon and I would use multiple targets rule as a
GM), you could have the same kind of result.

- Cobra.
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:22:28 -0400
At 09:15 PM 5/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Tim Kerby wrote:
>
>> Last night I posted an idea about a teleport spell using
>> clones

Well, that depends on how you see a ritual link item. As I understand it,
DNA is merely "closer" to a person than a photograph is, for example.

But if you see the aura as an expression of DNA in some way, then your
concept might work.

I've got to agree with Matb's analysis, that ritual magic targets an aura,
not genetic material and that a clone would almost certainly have a
differnet aura (even if only slightly) than the original person.

There's also that slight problem that in the SR world, at least as far as
we know, fully viable and functional clones are still not yet possible.

It's an evil idea though. You'd probably be better off doing multiple
rituals with pieces of brick from the area you want to hammer, or maybe set
up a number of anchorings. Or hell, you could probably find people to
"wear this ring into the concert," not realizing it's a minimal power spell
lock allowing a fireball to be channeled into the crowds.

And again, if you or someone else really wants to do this clone idea, while
I don't think it would work within canon, it's your game to do with as you
chose. And if that means in your game this is possible, go for it. Just
have fun with it.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 7
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:45:42 -0500
> More thoughts about clones and magic (Tim Kerby , Tue 21:15)
>
> Last night I posted an idea about a teleport spell using
> clones, and that lead me to think about something else. You
> can use DNA like a blood sample, skin, or hair as a ritual
> link. Now what if the target of the ritual has a clone? Since
> this clone's DNA is an exact replica of the target's, what
> happens to the ritual spell? Does it affect the target, the
> clone, or both simultaneously?

IMO, the "ritual sample" is a magical / sybolical link- DNA has little
to do with it. You can use a ritual sample even from INANIMATE
OBJECTS. Say you use the CPU from the flight control comp on Fighter
jet- thats a "vital component", easily a valid linkto the plane. Does
that mean using that link would afect EVERY similar Fighter jet? Of
course not, but the jets are effectively as similar as your clones.
Also, consider this- the "platelet factory" is a modification to the
bone marrow. Bone marrow transplants are possible today. Bone marrow
produces blood. A marrow transplants blood is genetically that of the
DONOR. Would a marrow transplant recipient's, or a platelet feactory
user's, blood be a ritual link to the donor (or whatever produced the
platelet factory)? No.
BTW, the "teleport" spell you areproposing already exists, sorta, in
awkenings. It is called"possesion", and could probably be cast
ritually, on a clone of the mage (or whoever). However, the mages OLD
body must not die, and the spell is sustained duration. A "permenant"
version would seem unlikely, as would one that allowed you to let your
old body die.

-Mongoose X
Message no. 8
From: DisnyShamn <DisnyShamn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:19:51 EDT
evamarie writes:

> BTW, the "teleport" spell you areproposing already exists, sorta, in
> awkenings. It is called"possesion", and could probably be cast
> ritually, on a clone of the mage (or whoever). However, the mages OLD
> body must not die, and the spell is sustained duration. A "permenant"
> version would seem unlikely, as would one that allowed you to let your
> old body die.

Ladies and Gentlemen... May I introduce Biomancy...


- Disney Shaman
Message no. 9
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 05:57:22 -0500
> Re: More thoughts about clones and magic (DisnyShamn , Thu 15:19)

> > BTW, the "teleport" spell you are proposing already exists, sorta, in
> > awkenings. It is called"possesion", and could probably be cast
> > ritually, on a clone of the mage (or whoever). However, the mages OLD
> > body must not die, and the spell is sustained duration. A
"permenant"
> > version would seem unlikely, as would one that allowed you to let your
> > old body die.
>
> Ladies and Gentlemen... May I introduce Biomancy...

No, I'd hope not, at least not THAT way... (I hope you just forgot the
smiley)

Interesting this "blood magic" thing should come up. Indeed, what you
do TO your blood, or with anothers blood, is, IMO, important....

Think about "Bioware doner clones". Is that sacrificial blood magic?
There may be a REASON bioware weirds some people out....

-Mongoose X
Message no. 10
From: walker of shadows <wkr_shadows@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: More thoughts about clones and magic
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:00:42 PDT
>Subject: More thoughts about clones and magic
>
>Last night I posted an idea about a teleport spell using
>clones, and that lead me to think about something else. You
>can use DNA like a blood sample, skin, or hair as a ritual
>link. Now what if the target of the ritual has a clone? Since
>this clone's DNA is an exact replica of the target's, what
>happens to the ritual spell? Does it affect the target, the
>clone, or both simultaneously?
>
>Let's say it's the latter (which is the result I am leaning
>toward); consider this. Let's say a mage wants to take out a
>large group of people in one fell swoop (like a rioting mob,
>or an enemy army). Insert a group of clones (all alike) into
>the mob at spaced intervals. The mage then casts a ritual into
>the target; one of the clones, or the original. The spell will
>ground out through all the clones. If an area effect physical
>spell was cast, a very large area could be covered. The clones
>would probably get wasted, but so would a lot of people in the
>target area.
>What do you think? Feasible, whacked-out, or just plain silly?
>

Well, according to SHADOWTECH, in 2053 human Geomegeering was only in
its "vegistative" stages. hmmmm...

Well, the spell would probably only go to the target. WHY?

In one of the various SR sourcebooks it says, "The spell targets the
person's AURA."

In another it says, "Even identical twins don't have the same
fingerprints, and they don't have the same aura, as each person's is
different."

mabie i'm just fragged, but I think it would only target the target.



Walker Of Shadows

---------------------------------------------------------

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+In the shadows darkness reigns, +
+and I am the one walks the path +
+between both of these worlds. +
+ -Walker of Shadows +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about More thoughts about clones and magic, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!