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Message no. 1
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: more whining
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:45:05 -0400
THIS IS NOT A FLAME

In response to an earlier post, Gurth wrote:

>>I'm one of those GMs that considers dice rolls a guide, rather than being
>>hard and fast
>
>I usually go with the die roll, unless it means my NPCs get killed too
>quickly :) I have been known to magically make all dice successes in such
>cases *GM grin*

I can't PROVE that my gm does this since he uses my screen, but npc's seem
to have a magically high number of successes in the oddest of circumstances.
I don't like the notion of fudging the dice rolls to the detriment of pc's.
If nothing else it removes the incentive to think ahead, plan, or use good
tactics. Why bother taking cover if the npc is going to hit regardless of
the dice rolls?

At the risk of sounding overly critical, if the npc's are getting killed too
quickly, the encounter was poorly planned by the gm. As a player, I would
prefer that 'imbalance' between pc's and npc's be resolved BEFORE the gamimg
session. I can live with tough, smart, well equipped opponents. Fudging the
dice to compensate for poor planning and tactics is irritating.

One last question for all of you gm's out there - how would you feel about
having
'one of those PC's that considers dice rolls a guide, rather than being hard
and and fast' in your game? "Well Terry you need a 24 to crack the maglock
with a bic pen while hanging upside down from your heels in the dark under
the leaky steamline". [rolls 4 times behind screen]. "Well son-of-gun John,
whaddya know, 4 sixes in a row on the first die. What's behind the door?"


Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 2
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:58:18 -0700
>>>One last question for all of you gm's out there - how would you feel about
having
'one of those PC's that considers dice rolls a guide, rather than being hard
and and fast' in your game?<<<<

A lot of people seem to get the idea, somewhere along the line, that a
role-playing game is a contest between the players and the GM. It's not.
The GM has the hardest and most thankless job; it's his/her responisbility
to create the world, create the adventure, keep track of all the other
people in the world, lead the players through it, answer questions, deal
with the unexpected, and basically bust their butt to entertain a bunch
of people who then whine when they don't get enough karma/treasure/guns.
It's kind of like throwing a party at your house; you do it because you
want to have fun, and to have people bitching about your sense of taste
while they drink your booze and puke on your carpet is discouraging, to
say the least.
Back when I was playing (ugh) **&*, we had a house rule: "The
DM is God. What they say, goes." Not the rulebooks, not the dice, not
the latest munchkin supplement or how your last DM did it. There's
got to be mutual trust. If the GM *wants* you dead, you could be facing
Dunkelzhan instead of 4 street punks. But if it's essential that fighting
those 4 punks take you six rounds so that the bad guy can get away so you
can later track him to the UB Church and thus to the rest of the adventure,
then, geeze, give the GM a break and let him/her fudge the rolls. He/she's
not doing it to piss you off, or kill you; he/she's doing it so that
*THE STORY WILL ULTIMATELY BE MORE ENJOYABLE FOR YOU, THE PLAYER.*

My opinion, anyway.

-Eve

"You see a dark figure watching down the block."
"I shoot him."
(rolls dice)
"Hmm. Ok, you just shot the main NPC Johnson. He's dead. He has no ID
and nothing informative. You now have no way to enter the adventure.
Anyone for a quick game of Magic: The Addiction, or shall we all go
home?"
Message no. 3
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 10:15:55 -0700
Terry writes:

>One last question for all of you gm's out there - how would you feel about
>having
>'one of those PC's that considers dice rolls a guide, rather than being hard
>and and fast' in your game? "Well Terry you need a 24 to crack the maglock
>with a bic pen while hanging upside down from your heels in the dark under
>the leaky steamline". [rolls 4 times behind screen]. "Well son-of-gun John,
>whaddya know, 4 sixes in a row on the first die. What's behind the door?"

As a GM and a player, I will respond to this inquiry (no flames intended).
I attempt to design challenging runs, but this does not always work.
Sometimes luck players a cruel joke and either the pc's or the npc's end up
on the wrong side of the dice, this can lead to quick and sometimes very
unfilling deaths of the pc's and npc's. To avoid this, the dice may be
fudged a little, this is not to say either group is let off the hook, but it
discourages players to have their pc's or npc's die quickly (no challenge).

Thus, the pc's dice are as much a guide as are the npc's. What we gm's do
behind our screens, is behind our screens, and any number is malleable. I
understand the fear this can create in players, as I fear this myself, so I
avoid this activity as much as possible. But, when I play I try to
emphasize the role-playing aspect. If a player is role-playing very well
and the dice are not with them, the player should not be constantly
penalized for bad luck; likewise, the player with good luck but cannot
role-play worth beans should not get all the lucky breaks.

I view my role as gm as trying to provide the best possible game for my
players as possible. Rules and dice for me, are ment as a way to help guide
my ability and the players, at creating an exciting game.

Hope this helps in understanding how some of us gm's think. Thanks for the
inquiry. Enjoy.
Brian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next on Entertaining Today/Tomarrow?Tosometimes:
The movie everyone has been waiting for...
Without a Clue in Tucson
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Staring that blondest of blonds, Nurse Wratchet, with co-stars
I'll Never Tell and Dirty Little Secret.

Stay Tuned for the chill, next, after these messages.
**************************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet" aka bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
**************************************************************************
Message no. 4
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 10:21:00 -0700
On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Terry Amburgey wrote:

>
> I can't PROVE that my gm does this since he uses my screen, but npc's seem
> to have a magically high number of successes in the oddest of circumstances.
> I don't like the notion of fudging the dice rolls to the detriment of pc's.
> If nothing else it removes the incentive to think ahead, plan, or use good
> tactics. Why bother taking cover if the npc is going to hit regardless of
> the dice rolls?

I agree.

> At the risk of sounding overly critical, if the npc's are getting killed too
> quickly, the encounter was poorly planned by the gm. As a player, I would
> prefer that 'imbalance' between pc's and npc's be resolved BEFORE the gamimg
> session. I can live with tough, smart, well equipped opponents. Fudging the
> dice to compensate for poor planning and tactics is irritating.

I agree again.

> One last question for all of you gm's out there - how would you feel about
> having
> 'one of those PC's that considers dice rolls a guide, rather than being hard
> and and fast' in your game? "Well Terry you need a 24 to crack the maglock
> with a bic pen while hanging upside down from your heels in the dark under
> the leaky steamline". [rolls 4 times behind screen]. "Well son-of-gun John,
> whaddya know, 4 sixes in a row on the first die. What's behind the door?"


I've had one of these obnoxious individuals in my game. I eventually
booted him out, though I tried a lot of other things first.

>
> Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
> Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
> College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
> University of Kentucky
> Lexington, KY 40506
>

OK, enough of the pithy statements. I fudge dice rolls sometimes when I
am GMing, but ALWAYS in favor of the storyline. I do it very seldom, but
I refuse to submit to the tyrany of the dice. As game master it is my
place to make sure that those who have consented to play in my campaign
have fun, and if a really heinous die roll screws that up I overrule it.

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast
Message no. 5
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:45:50 +0600
> OK, enough of the pithy statements. I fudge dice rolls sometimes when I
> am GMing, but ALWAYS in favor of the storyline. I do it very seldom, but
> I refuse to submit to the tyrany of the dice. As game master it is my
> place to make sure that those who have consented to play in my campaign
> have fun, and if a really heinous die roll screws that up I overrule it.
>
> Edmund Metheny

I whole-heartedly agree with what's been said here... At times, GM'ing a run can be
an extremely thankless task. Most of my enjoyment comes out of role-playing
NPC's... From ignorant gutter-punks to corp heads.

I also agree with the premise that the dice aren't the be-all, end-all judges
of what happens in a game. I've GMed a run where, over the course of 4 or 5
hours, the dice were rolled maybe 4 times. But then again, I tend to go at all of
this from more of a story-telling standpoint. Many people do it differently.

Jeff Norrell
University of Texas at Austin
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Message no. 6
From: "John R. Wicker II" <jrwick00@***.UKY.EDU>
Subject: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 00:16:24 -0400
Terry Amburgey wrote:

>I can't PROVE that my gm does this since he uses my screen, but npc's seem
>to have a magically high number of successes in the oddest of=
circumstances.

You don't have to prove it, cuz I will tell you flat out- I'm your
GM, and I do it!

>I don't like the notion of fudging the dice rolls to the detriment of pc's.
>If nothing else it removes the incentive to think ahead, plan, or use good
>tactics. Why bother taking cover if the npc is going to hit regardless of
>the dice rolls?

I guess you have some specific situations in mind here, and I would
be happy to address them with you one on one in e-mail if you want, but as a
blanket statement, let me just say this: Any dice fudging that I (or any
other GM, for that matter) do is almost always going to be done to preserve
a storyline in some way.

>At the risk of sounding overly critical, if the npc's are getting killed=
too
>quickly, the encounter was poorly planned by the gm. As a player, I would
>prefer that 'imbalance' between pc's and npc's be resolved BEFORE the=
gamimg
>session. I can live with tough, smart, well equipped opponents. Fudging the
>dice to compensate for poor planning and tactics is irritating.

Sometimes drek happens. Let's face it- PC's are an inventive lot,
and I cannot count the number of times that a particulary ingenious plan on
the part of a PC has totally undone what I had planned to do during a gaming
session. That's a part of being GM that I have come to expect, and even
enjoy under the right circumstances.
I don't consider it a situation of "GM vs. PC's" and I would never
allow that situation to develop, so if things start happening that seem
"odd" and "magical" start happening, it's a function of storytelling,
and
not a case of "John's gonna get Gypsy one way or another".
In regards to the balancing of a situation- I hate to say this, but
I am *constantly* balancing situations. Tom Dowd told me something about
NPC's and threat pool that I really took to heart- if the NPC's aren't tough
enough, give them another couple of dice in threat pool. If they're beating
the drek out of the PC's, take a couple away. I live and die by this control
measure during combat. The NPC's that start out with 4 threat pool dice will
probably be rolling only 1 threat pool dice towards the end of a
particularly nasty encounter. The same thing happens in reverse- those three
guys that were supposed to cause major problems just got reduced to one guy.
Suddenly, he realizes he's in deep drek, and concentrates really hard on
what he's doing.
Is it completely fair in all situations? No. Does it sacrifice NPC
reality to the story sometimes? Yes. Does it keep things interesting for the
PC's? I hope so.

Brian A. Stewart wrote:

>Sometimes luck players a cruel joke and either the pc's or the npc's end up
>on the wrong side of the dice, this can lead to quick and sometimes very
>unfilling deaths of the pc's and npc's.

Boy, those are a real pain. When the big encounter with the dragon
comes and the poor wyrm is taken down by the first blast from a Panther
Cannon, you either fudge it a little bit, or you tell everyone to go home=
early.
By the same token, that ganger with the streetline special just
rolled five sixs on a head shot. Oops, I guess you should start making a new
character, eh?

>Thus, the pc's dice are as much a guide as are the npc's. What we gm's do
>behind our screens, is behind our screens, and any number is malleable.

What's even better is what we GM's do in front of them- I often tell
characters to roll a skill without giving them a target number. How do they
know if they succeed? Simple- I just determine what kind of info they should
get, or how badly they need to be inside of that door with a Maglock 4 on
it. Do I fudge these rolls? All the fragging time, chummer.

¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥=
¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥=
¥
If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too
much space! Embrace the revolution!
-Found poem, 1995
¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥=
¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥=
¥
¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥=
¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥=
¥
"If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Embrace the revolution!"
-A found poem, 1995

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Message no. 7
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:06:00 +0200
:->> One last question for all of you gm's out there - how would you feel about
:->> having
:->> 'one of those PC's that considers dice rolls a guide, rather than being hard
:->> and and fast' in your game? "Well Terry you need a 24 to crack the maglock
:->> with a bic pen while hanging upside down from your heels in the dark under
:->> the leaky steamline". [rolls 4 times behind screen]. "Well son-of-gun
John,
:->> whaddya know, 4 sixes in a row on the first die. What's behind the door?"
:->
:->
:->I've had one of these obnoxious individuals in my game. I eventually
:->booted him out, though I tried a lot of other things first.

Our group concentrates mainly on Role-playing rather than ROLL-
playing <grin>. So far our record is in 5 games we rolled dice a
total of twice. (Both of them etti-quwettis)

Andre'
Man is a teller of stories, he lives by and is surrounded by his
own stories and those of other people, he sees everythings that
happens to him in terms of these stories and thus has to live
enacting them
-Sarte

GARFIELD !
-Jon
Message no. 8
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@**.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:31:41 +0000
On Jul 25, 12:45pm, Terry Amburgey wrote:
> Subject: more whining
> I can't PROVE that my gm does this since he uses my screen, but npc's seem
> to have a magically high number of successes in the oddest of circumstances.
> I don't like the notion of fudging the dice rolls to the detriment of pc's.
> If nothing else it removes the incentive to think ahead, plan, or use good
> tactics. Why bother taking cover if the npc is going to hit regardless of
> the dice rolls?

I'm a part-time GM, and I can assure you that this never happens. Not only for
me, but for all the GMs in the world. Anyway, you have a point: the number of
successes generated by npcs is _always_ greater than those of the pcs.

There is a scientific explanation.

Many GMs, in many civilized countries, use a particular kind of dice specially
designed and handcrafted for GMs. The peculiarity of those dice is that, once
rolled by a GM, they generate a ludicruous amount of sixes, while, when rolled
by a PC, the highest number they give is, sometimes, 4.

Many says that this is impossible, that a die cannot recognize the roller, that
the laws of probability should give every roller the same chanches, but it is a
fact. If you have an orichalcum detector handy, try to read the orichalcum
count coming from your GM's dice. If it is twice the normal background
orichalcum count, then he has a set of those dice. And no, there is no
advantage to use those dice for your character rolls. They recognize who is
rolling.

A side effect of this is that, if the GM occasionally is a player, the dice
sense this transition and behave themselves as a normal set of player's dice
(thus giving, on best occasions, 4 as the highest number rolled).

Should be the karma, who knows?

Bye, Paolo :P

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci
marcucci@**.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/~marcucci/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, a big TV with a hi-fi VCR and a nice
stereo, a full fridge, a microwave, a UNIX system, two phone lines,
a high speed modem, internet access.... and thou."
Message no. 9
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:46:41 +0200
:->There is a scientific explanation.
:->
:->Many GMs, in many civilized countries, use a particular kind of dice specially
:->designed and handcrafted for GMs. The peculiarity of those dice is that, once
:->rolled by a GM, they generate a ludicruous amount of sixes, while, when rolled
:->by a PC, the highest number they give is, sometimes, 4.

Sounds familiar. Mages rolls 16 of GM's dice highest number....5.
GM rolls 3 dice, lowest number 13,highest 27..
:->
:->Many says that this is impossible, that a die cannot recognize the roller, that
:->the laws of probability should give every roller the same chanches, but it is a
:->fact. If you have an orichalcum detector handy, try to read the orichalcum
:->count coming from your GM's dice. If it is twice the normal background
:->orichalcum count, then he has a set of those dice. And no, there is no
:->advantage to use those dice for your character rolls. They recognize who is
:->rolling.

I found that by threatening the dice with destruction helps....
sometimes, it's just they become vindictive at critical moments. As
for the oricalcum detector, we don't need one, those (scruffy,
cracked, chiped dice positively glow)

:->
:->A side effect of this is that, if the GM occasionally is a player, the dice
:->sense this transition and behave themselves as a normal set of player's dice
:->(thus giving, on best occasions, 4 as the highest number rolled).
:->
That has yet to be prooved. those dice seem to roll well (for the
GM) no matter what the system...

Heres a neat spell I learned. Roll all your dice, take the
ones that roll 1's. Reroll until you have only 1 die left. Place dice
in a magic circle about 1/2 meter in diameter around said low
rolling die. Raise the mystic hammer saying these words: ' If thoust
roll low this is what happens'. Bring down hammer with great force on
said quivering die. Store broken die with rest of dice as a reminder,
take 2L drain from flying die parts and strain of lifting hammer..

It works wonders....

Andre'
Man is a teller of stories, he lives by and is surrounded by his
own stories and those of other people, he sees everythings that
happens to him in terms of these stories and thus has to live
enacting them
-Sarte

GARFIELD !
-Jon
Message no. 10
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 03:50:05 -0400
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Paolo Marcucci wrote:
> A side effect of this is that, if the GM occasionally is a player, the dice
> sense this transition and behave themselves as a normal set of player's dice
> (thus giving, on best occasions, 4 as the highest number rolled).
> Should be the karma, who knows?
> Bye, Paolo :P

<BG> The scary thing is, when I GM, I *do* roll a _LOT_ more
sixes than I do when I play...;) I remember once, I rolled 6 sixes out
of 7 dice, then rolled again for 5 sixes...;) I have to agree,
though... There is orichalcum in my dice(hey, I got 'em cheap!):)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 11
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@**.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:51:20 +0000
On Jul 26, 3:50am, Dave Stone wrote:
> Subject: Re: more whining
> On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Paolo Marcucci wrote:
> > A side effect of this is that, if the GM occasionally is a player, the dice
> > sense this transition and behave themselves as a normal set of player's
dice
> > (thus giving, on best occasions, 4 as the highest number rolled).
> > Should be the karma, who knows?
> > Bye, Paolo :P
>
> <BG> The scary thing is, when I GM, I *do* roll a _LOT_ more
> sixes than I do when I play...;) I remember once, I rolled 6 sixes out
> of 7 dice, then rolled again for 5 sixes...;) I have to agree,
> though... There is orichalcum in my dice(hey, I got 'em cheap!):)
>
> Dave

Hey, you all believe that I was joking? That's the plain, old thruth.
I *never* use the same dice while GM or playing. I have a special set of dice,
with dots instead of numbers, marbled light blue when I play. They have proven
ok in my player's hands. When I use them as a GM, they fail everytime.

I'm not superstitious but I have to separate bags for dice. They never touch
themselves. Maybe it's not a direct contact disease, but until further
investigation, they stay in two bags.

Bye, Paolo

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci
marcucci@**.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/~marcucci/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, a big TV with a hi-fi VCR and a nice
stereo, a full fridge, a microwave, a UNIX system, two phone lines,
a high speed modem, internet access.... and thou."
Message no. 12
From: "Mattson, Michael" <E2X@*****.WA.GOV>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:33:00 PDT
Paolo Marcucci wrote:

>>>>>
Hey, you all believe that I was joking? That's the plain, old thruth.
I *never* use the same dice while GM or playing. I have a special set of
dice,
with dots instead of numbers, marbled light blue when I play. They have
proven
ok in my player's hands. When I use them as a GM, they fail everytime.
>>>>>

This is no bull-drek. I have been GMing for nigh on 16 years now. It
doesn't seem to matter what the system, or what type of dice you use (eg.
**&* 20 siders and so forth). The GM ALWAYS rolls better. I can use the
same dice as a player and roll terribly for weeks straight. I change back
to GM and all things return to normal.

This could be the root of why us GM's always return to the head of the table
and can't stay in the players seat for too very long. It becomes
frustrating always getting those ludicrously low die rolls.

Michael Mattson
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:43:25 GMT
> From: "Mattson, Michael" <E2X@*****.WA.GOV>
>
> This is no bull-drek. I have been GMing for nigh on 16 years now. It
> doesn't seem to matter what the system, or what type of dice you use (eg.
> **&* 20 siders and so forth). The GM ALWAYS rolls better. I can use the
> same dice as a player and roll terribly for weeks straight. I change back
> to GM and all things return to normal.
>
> Michael Mattson
>
ah yes d6's that average 2, and that D4 !! 4-4-4-4-3. The local ED GM
is getting very fed up with D4's that keep doing this, or similar.
Then there is the case of magic, attack, pile of clutter, you missed,
same dice roll drain, typically target number 2, 4555666 and so it
goes on.

Mark
Message no. 14
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:50:21 -0700
>> Heres a neat spell I learned. Roll all your dice, take the
>>ones that roll 1's. Reroll until you have only 1 die left. Place dice
>>in a magic circle about 1/2 meter in diameter around said low
>>rolling die. Raise the mystic hammer saying these words: ' If thoust
>>roll low this is what happens'. Bring down hammer with great force on
>>said quivering die. Store broken die with rest of dice as a reminder,
>>take 2L drain from flying die parts and strain of lifting hammer..
>>
>> It works wonders....
>>
>> Andre'

Love the spell. I use a doll that looks like the dice and every time they
misbehave I stick it with pins, or put it near an open flame, ect... It is
amazing how well they behave after that. Of course lately Ihave been having
the strangest dreams...about gieant dice sticking me with pins. But that is
only a dream. Ouch, it feels like Ihave a pin stuck through my hand.

>-------------------------
>Hey, you all believe that I was joking? That's the plain, old thruth.
>I *never* use the same dice while GM or playing. I have a special set of dice,
>with dots instead of numbers, marbled light blue when I play. They have proven
>ok in my player's hands. When I use them as a GM, they fail everytime.
>
>I'm not superstitious but I have to separate bags for dice. They never touch
>themselves. Maybe it's not a direct contact disease, but until further
>investigation, they stay in two bags.
>
>Bye, Paolo
>
I keep my dice seperated as well. I have standard gm dice, pc dice, really
mean gm dice, and dice I will let anyone touch. I think it is a contact
disease, sometimes their traits will crossover just by me touching them.
You might want to try Andre's spell and see if it helps to cure them.

Enjoy.
Brian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next on Entertaining Today/Tomarrow?Tosometimes:
The movie everyone has been waiting for...
Without a Clue in Tucson
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Staring that blondest of blonds, Nurse Wratchet, with co-stars
I'll Never Tell and Dirty Little Secret.

Stay Tuned for the chill, next, after these messages.
**************************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet" aka bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu aka
brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
**************************************************************************
Message no. 15
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:51:36 GMT
> THIS IS NOT A FLAME

Good! My skin is purest asbestos these days. (Although the heat-proof
tiles keep dropping off...)

> >I usually go with the die roll, unless it means my NPCs get killed too
> >quickly :) I have been known to magically make all dice successes in such
> >cases *GM grin*
>
> I can't PROVE that my gm does this since he uses my screen, but npc's seem
> to have a magically high number of successes in the oddest of circumstances.
> I don't like the notion of fudging the dice rolls to the detriment of pc's.
> If nothing else it removes the incentive to think ahead, plan, or use good
> tactics. Why bother taking cover if the npc is going to hit regardless of
> the dice rolls?

I don't do this sort of thing (crap deliberately on PCs for no good reason).
But if, for instance, a battle is meant to be significant (and make the
PCs ask "Why was this place so well-protected?") I'll fudge and fiddle to make
them sweat, then let them win. Now they're wondering why their easy, simple
run took them against such tough opposition: if I let the dice stand
then they might cream the opposition and miss the rest of the plot :-) Or get
killed instead, also missing the plot.

Also, it goes both ways: a PC doing something I feel is in character, but
that exposes them to risk, sometimes finds me "losing" NPC successes against
them. Example was a Dog shaman going back for a wounded team-mate: the dice
said he should have died. Okay, perhaps it's unfair on people who maximise
all tactical advantage, but I reward good role-playing over tactical analysis.

Actually, in an ambush it's sometimes hard to find reasons *not* to kill all
the PCs... I mean, who uses laser sights in an ambush? And if a Firearms-6
sniper has aimed for three actions, he's, like, *really* going to "just miss"
his first shot... That is where creative GM cheating really comes in.

> At the risk of sounding overly critical, if the npc's are getting killed too
> quickly, the encounter was poorly planned by the gm. As a player, I would
> prefer that 'imbalance' between pc's and npc's be resolved BEFORE the gamimg
> session. I can live with tough, smart, well equipped opponents. Fudging the
> dice to compensate for poor planning and tactics is irritating.

Well, our group trusts each other (we only really use dice on printed runs
these days anyway). We also debate outcomes with the GM. But then our style
wouldn't suit a lot of other people.

It's amazing what a team can do to a GM. One team of high-powered NPCs got
cut to pieces by the team because of blind luck (the team magician threw
a Chaotic World and completely maxed her successes), another time an
all-skills-and-attributes-at-3 generic guard held off two PC physical adepts
in hand-to-hand combat for two full turns. And I saw those dice rolling:
just freak luck. One of them had to burn Karma not to take a Moderate wound
at one point...

Often it doesn't matter and you can laugh about it. If I cheat the players
then it's because they'll enjoy the adventure more if I steer it in this
direction, rather than let it go that way. I certainly don't do it because
I like to kill PCs.

> One last question for all of you gm's out there - how would you feel about
> having
> 'one of those PC's that considers dice rolls a guide, rather than being hard
> and and fast' in your game? "Well Terry you need a 24 to crack the maglock
> with a bic pen while hanging upside down from your heels in the dark under
> the leaky steamline". [rolls 4 times behind screen]. "Well son-of-gun John,
> whaddya know, 4 sixes in a row on the first die. What's behind the door?"

<Rolls dice on Random Encounter Table>. "Great Cthulhu, in his incarnation as
Patron Saint of Dice, manifests in anger at your cheating and closes the door.
Roll those dice where I can see them."

It comes down to trust. If players and GM trust each other it doesn't really
matter. A few players will cheat rolls. It's not exactly hard to spot: do
the same thing back to them. I used to borrow one persistent offender's
dice to use "his lucky high-rollers" when NPCs shot at him. He took the hint.
On the other hand I don't usually ask for target numbers: just let them roll
and decide who gets it open, if it's really vital. Or yank their chains for
a while about what might be behind it... if they could only get it open.
Point is they trust me not to mess with them *too* much.

Besides, fiddling an encounter is one thing. But making a whole adventure
dependent on one dice roll ("Everyone tried, and we used every colour Bic
pen we had, but nobody got the door open. You go home, dejected by your
failure to roll a 24.") is asking for that kind of abuse.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 16
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:29:08 GMT
> I found that by threatening the dice with destruction helps....
> sometimes, it's just they become vindictive at critical moments. As
> for the oricalcum detector, we don't need one, those (scruffy,
> cracked, chiped dice positively glow)

A friend once took a particularly obnoxious die and pounded it to dust with
a concrete block, in sight of the others. Sadly, it did not produce the
desired effect. I tried it myself, also without success.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 17
From: Charles KcKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:28:31 -0500
> This is no bull-drek. I have been GMing for nigh on 16 years now. It
> doesn't seem to matter what the system, or what type of dice you use (eg.
> **&* 20 siders and so forth). The GM ALWAYS rolls better. I can use the
> same dice as a player and roll terribly for weeks straight. I change back
> to GM and all things return to normal.

I'v been playing and GMing for 8 or 9, and I've found that even in **&*,
the PLAYERS roll better. Seems almost unavoidable that the big dude with
the magic sword will roll the first initiative against the huge nasty
Bad Thing(TM) at the end of the adventure and critically hit with max
damage and a charge...

Kilroy
Message no. 18
From: "Mattson, Michael" <E2X@*****.WA.GOV>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:43:00 PDT
Kilroy was here . . . .

>>>>>
Seems almost unavoidable that the big dude with
the magic sword will roll the first initiative against the huge nasty
Bad Thing(TM) at the end of the adventure and critically hit with max
damage and a charge...
>>>>>

Well, there is that . . . .

I like to make my huge nasty Bad Thing(TM) a bit tougher when this happens.
Shadowrun is great for this. Just increase the Threat Dice a bit.

Don't get me wrong. I don't do this to screw with players or to kill PC's.
An earlier post stated it great when they said that it was a shame to have
to tell everyone, "well, that's it. See you next week!" Keep the game
going. If this encounter NEEDS must be Bad-To-The-Bone(TM) then modify it a
little.

Always, as a GM, keep in mind your plot and story-line. If it won't
change/modify your story line, let it happen (It's good for PC moral to
decimate the evil Bad Thing(TM) in one mighty blow). If it will kill your
story, fix it!!!!!

Always make Role Playing (Not Roll Playing) your goal and ALWAYS make sure
the Players are having a blast (Not to be confused with a hand grenade
blast, but those are fun too!!).

Later.

Michael Mattson
Please post flames to someone@***.cares
Please post private eMail to mmattson@***.net
Message no. 19
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:44:00 -0700
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:

> A friend once took a particularly obnoxious die and pounded it to dust with
> a concrete block, in sight of the others. Sadly, it did not produce the
> desired effect. I tried it myself, also without success.

My favorite ploy is to take the recalcatrant dice down into the basement
(i.e. dungeon), put the sacrificial victem in the bench vice in full view
of the others, and then crank the vice up just tight enough that I start
to hear crackling sounds coming from the die. Then I stand back and
watch gleefully. In about 15 seconds the die EXPLODES!

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast


P.S. Kids! Don't try this at home! Do it in some more public place
instead.
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 23:03:31 +0200
>A lot of people seem to get the idea, somewhere along the line, that a
>role-playing game is a contest between the players and the GM. It's not.

Damn right. I've been getting a non-RP-er to play Shadowrun today (the guy
didn't even know what an RPG was until I showed him the rulebook), and so he
had the idea that it was something of a win/lose game. It took me some time
to get that out of his head, and after a short game (3 1/2 hours or so) he
said he really liked it :)

> Back when I was playing (ugh) **&*, we had a house rule: "The
>DM is God. What they say, goes."

I've said nearly the same thing twice on this mailing list, the first time
people agreed, the second time I got flamed for it. It seems opinions are
divided, but my regular player sometimes (jokingly, I might add, before it
all starts again) says something like "God, is it OK I roll my dice now?"


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
En ik zeg je weer niet wat ik nu denk dat ik je eigenlijk zeggen wil...
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 23:03:37 +0200
>One last question for all of you gm's out there - how would you feel about
>having
>'one of those PC's that considers dice rolls a guide, rather than being hard
>and and fast' in your game? "Well Terry you need a 24 to crack the maglock
>with a bic pen while hanging upside down from your heels in the dark under
>the leaky steamline". [rolls 4 times behind screen]. "Well son-of-gun John,
>whaddya know, 4 sixes in a row on the first die. What's behind the door?"

There's a real neat trick to avoid this. It's called the "Say: 'Roll The
Dice' Method." I almost never give target numbers except in combat or
healing, where they can be calculated easily from tables. If someone wants
to open a maglock, I say "roll the dice," and if they roll high, the player
succeeds. If they roll low, well, tough luck but the lock stays shut. No
actual numbers, most of the time, just "That looks good. Let's keep it."


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
En ik zeg je weer niet wat ik nu denk dat ik je eigenlijk zeggen wil...
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 23:03:55 +0200
>I'm not superstitious but I have to separate bags for dice. They never touch
>themselves.

You've got very prudish dice there, Paolo :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
En ik zeg je weer niet wat ik nu denk dat ik je eigenlijk zeggen wil...
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 23
From: Nilo Nolasco <nilo@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:28:36 -0600
On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
> A lot of people seem to get the idea, somewhere along the line, that a
> role-playing game is a contest between the players and the GM. It's not.
> The GM has the hardest and most thankless job; it's his/her responisbility
> to create the world, create the adventure, keep track of all the other
> people in the world, lead the players through it, answer questions, deal
> with the unexpected, and basically bust their butt to entertain a bunch
> of people who then whine when they don't get enough karma/treasure/guns.
> It's kind of like throwing a party at your house; you do it because you
> want to have fun, and to have people bitching about your sense of taste
> while they drink your booze and puke on your carpet is discouraging, to
> say the least.

And for some reason, us GMs keep going back and doing it. Sure,
some players REALLY test our tolerance but that's part of our job - to
keep the game running smoothly and hopefullY, EVERYONE is having a good
time (more or less). It can be a contest between the players and the GM
but it's more of a match of wits, like a chess game. The only difference
is that at every encounter, the GM throws at you something new or
different and players are there to adjust to it, overcome it, and/or take
it. The challenge of EACH puzzle or encounter between PCs and the GM's
NPCs is what makes it fun for both parties.

> Back when I was playing (ugh) **&*, we had a house rule: "The
> DM is God. What they say, goes." Not the rulebooks, not the dice, not
> the latest munchkin supplement or how your last DM did it. There's
> got to be mutual trust. If the GM *wants* you dead, you could be facing
> Dunkelzhan instead of 4 street punks. But if it's essential that fighting
> those 4 punks take you six rounds so that the bad guy can get away so you
> can later track him to the UB Church and thus to the rest of the adventure,
> then, geeze, give the GM a break and let him/her fudge the rolls. He/she's
> not doing it to piss you off, or kill you; he/she's doing it so that
> *THE STORY WILL ULTIMATELY BE MORE ENJOYABLE FOR YOU, THE PLAYER.*

Hear, hear! GMs (like myself) do not, I repeat DO NOT take
pleasure in inflicting serious injuries, maming OR even killing a
character. I was once a player of The Unmentionable Game as well as a DM
of it and I believe that the many stereotypes of the
PSYCHOCRAZYDEATHTOALLPCs gamemaster originated from there. PCs have this
view that if they piss off their GM, BAD things are bound to happen to
their character. Not true (in most cases, anyway)! I have GMed
Shadowrun since 1989 and played as a PC only 5 or 6 times; I ADMIT that
the players can be a pain, they screw up my beloved campaign, mess up my
house - I love being the GM more than ever... Not for the power or the
delight in stomping PCs to the ground, but in the company of friends and
the enjoyment of the players when they succeed on a major objective or
when take down the big guy! When I see that they're having fun, I'm
quite content because I WAS responsible in making them have an enjoyable
session (and to take them out from reality and into a make believe one
for a few hours).

Nilo
Message no. 24
From: Nilo Nolasco <nilo@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:53:24 -0600
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Paolo Marcucci wrote:
> Many GMs, in many civilized countries, use a particular kind of dice specially
> designed and handcrafted for GMs. The peculiarity of those dice is that, once
> rolled by a GM, they generate a ludicruous amount of sixes, while, when rolled
> by a PC, the highest number they give is, sometimes, 4.
>
> Many says that this is impossible, that a die cannot recognize the roller, that
> the laws of probability should give every roller the same chanches, but it is a
> fact. If you have an orichalcum detector handy, try to read the orichalcum
> count coming from your GM's dice. If it is twice the normal background
> orichalcum count, then he has a set of those dice. And no, there is no
> advantage to use those dice for your character rolls. They recognize who is
> rolling.
>
> A side effect of this is that, if the GM occasionally is a player, the dice
> sense this transition and behave themselves as a normal set of player's dice
> (thus giving, on best occasions, 4 as the highest number rolled).

That's why I have my own dice for GMing and I try not to lend
these dice to my players, all they'll get out of them is a whole bunch of
ones. Strangely, these dice have never let me down. Let's say, I need 3
successes and wouldn't you know it, the darn things then give me five.
"Whoops, sorry Chris. Looks like I took yer arm off there." Then again,
when I use this same dice to play Battletech or Blood Bowl - let's just
say I blame my dice and not my skills on either game.

NN
Message no. 25
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:47:38 -0700
>>> <BG> The scary thing is, when I GM, I *do* roll a _LOT_ more
sixes than I do when I play...;) I remember once, I rolled 6 sixes out
of 7 dice, then rolled again for 5 sixes...;) I have to agree,
though... There is orichalcum in my dice(hey, I got 'em cheap!):)
<<<

What's scary is handing dice to Adam Getchell... dice LOVE him. They
love him when he's GM'ing and they love another friend of ours named
Kurt when Kurt is making a character. I'm not saying either of them
cheat, they just are dice-empathic or something.

I had one set of red dice that were very nice, and only used for one
character. But when that character underwent a drastic change, suddenly
the dice lost interest and never rolled that well again.

Yeah, it's superstition. But it's also true. :)

"Magic is a crutch for people who don't know how to drive."
-Tigger the Rigger
Message no. 26
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:59:00 MDT
>A side effect of this is that, if the GM occasionally is a player, the dice
>sense this transition and behave themselves as a normal set of player's dice
>(thus giving, on best occasions, 4 as the highest number rolled).
>
>Should be the karma, who knows?


They do! They also seem to sense when it's time for one of those famous
critical failures.


Jill
Message no. 27
From: "Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:50:41 -0700
A. The exception is when you are GM and a roll is key to the
Plot.

3. Dice will roll better if they are more expensive ie. Gem dice
and pearled dice will behave better than standard dice

4. New dice will perform better than older ones <they have not yet
learned what they can get away with>

5. Dice are vindictivedon't ever threaten them.
Message no. 28
From: "Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:02:17 -0700
Whoa my mail program mangled that one, I'll fix it


*-------------------------------------------*
|Stephen M. Bugge|<bugge@********.edu> |
|President, |<buug@***.com> |
|College GOP @ SU|<75764.240@**********.com>|
*-------------------------------------------*
1. other people will do better with your dice

2. the GM always rolls better.
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Stephen M. Bugge wrote:

> A. The exception is when you are GM and a roll is key to the
> Plot.
>
> 3. Dice will roll better if they are more expensive ie. Gem dice
> and pearled dice will behave better than standard dice
>
> 4. New dice will perform better than older ones <they have not yet
> learned what they can get away with>
>
> 5. Dice are vindictivedon't ever threaten them.
Message no. 29
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 18:16:00 MDT
>There's a real neat trick to avoid this. It's called the "Say: 'Roll The
>Dice' Method." I almost never give target numbers except in combat or
>healing, where they can be calculated easily from tables. If someone wants
>to open a maglock, I say "roll the dice," and if they roll high, the player
>succeeds. If they roll low, well, tough luck but the lock stays shut. No
>actual numbers, most of the time, just "That looks good. Let's keep it."
>


That's what I do. Usually, that's when one of the players rolls a 29.
Message no. 30
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 18:25:00 MDT
>I had one set of red dice that were very nice, and only used for one
>character. But when that character underwent a drastic change, suddenly
>the dice lost interest and never rolled that well again.
>
>Yeah, it's superstition. But it's also true. :)
>


I've had the same set for over five years. About two years I had a
character who could not fail any etiquette test. She was the same way with
negotiation/fast talk. My dice haven't rolled the same since.
Message no. 31
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@**.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 08:32:59 +0000
On Jul 26, 11:44am, Edmund M. Metheny wrote:
> Subject: Re: more whining
> On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:
>
> > A friend once took a particularly obnoxious die and pounded it to dust with
> > a concrete block, in sight of the others. Sadly, it did not produce the
> > desired effect. I tried it myself, also without success.
>
> My favorite ploy is to take the recalcatrant dice down into the basement
> (i.e. dungeon), put the sacrificial victem in the bench vice in full view
> of the others, and then crank the vice up just tight enough that I start
> to hear crackling sounds coming from the die. Then I stand back and
> watch gleefully. In about 15 seconds the die EXPLODES!
>
> Edmund Metheny

...this thing chills me... how can you be so cruel?

Anyway, a thing I've done in the past was to add npc to the encounter to keep
it during more than three secs. There was this MainBadGuy (tm) who was caught
by the pcs while riding his car down the street of seattle to a building where
he had his hq. Just near the building, the pcs starts pouring lead to the car.
Car stops :) and the BadGuy runs out into the building with his driver firing
smg rounds to the pcs (attacker running, target running, fire coming from the
car, no way to score a hit, but it kept the pc's head down)

You have to understand that this guy HAD to stay alive for the adventure to
continue, only the players were too smart (and the gm, me, was particulary dumb
that evening) and found him.

Suddenly I (like god) put an helicopter on the roof with a pilot armed with a
sniper rifle. Even so, the pcs managed to run up to the roof and almost blow
the helicopter to pieces. Well, it was not fair, but the adventure has
continued. And that was the time when the pc's dice rolled better than mine.

Bye, Paolo

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci
marcucci@**.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/~marcucci/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, a big TV with a hi-fi VCR and a nice
stereo, a full fridge, a microwave, a UNIX system, two phone lines,
a high speed modem, internet access.... and thou."
Message no. 32
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:33:40 +0200
:->>There's a real neat trick to avoid this. It's called the "Say: 'Roll The
:->>Dice' Method." I almost never give target numbers except in combat or
:->>healing, where they can be calculated easily from tables. If someone wants
:->>to open a maglock, I say "roll the dice," and if they roll high, the
player
:->>succeeds. If they roll low, well, tough luck but the lock stays shut. No
:->>actual numbers, most of the time, just "That looks good. Let's keep
it."
:->>
:->
:->
:->That's what I do. Usually, that's when one of the players rolls a 29.
:->

I assume that counts for the 44 a player rolled for athletics one
(vs T#2)
Andre'
Man is a teller of stories, he lives by and is surrounded by his
own stories and those of other people, he sees everythings that
happens to him in terms of these stories and thus has to live
enacting them
-Sarte

GARFIELD !
-Jon
Message no. 33
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:08:00 PDT
> I say "roll the dice," and if they roll high, the player
>:->>succeeds. If they roll low, well, tough luck but the lock stays shut.
No
>:->>actual numbers, most of the time, just "That looks good. Let's keep
it."

>:->That's what I do. Usually, that's when one of the players rolls a 29.
>:->

>I assume that counts for the 44 a player rolled for athletics one
>(vs T#2)

Which brings up a thing I've been thinking about...

When the player just "rolls the dice" which is worth most? Rolling 24 on one
of the 4 dice or rolling all 6es ? Which should be considered the most
impressive feat?

How do you guys do it? I usually say "ok it worked" if the players roll a
single die above 9 or so. Could really piss them of to say "Man...only ONE
24? Sorry, didn't work."


MxM
Message no. 34
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@**.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:10:31 +0000
On Jul 27, 11:08am, Lindblom Fredrik, Training wrote:
> Subject: Re: more whining
> When the player just "rolls the dice" which is worth most? Rolling 24 on
one
> of the 4 dice or rolling all 6es ? Which should be considered the most
> impressive feat?
>
> How do you guys do it? I usually say "ok it worked" if the players roll a
> single die above 9 or so. Could really piss them of to say "Man...only ONE
> 24? Sorry, didn't work."

It depends. If you only need one success, then a 24 is an astoudingly better
way to do what you are required (gm's description and discretion)

If you need *more* than one success, well, no good.

Bye, Paolo

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci
marcucci@**.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/~marcucci/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, a big TV with a hi-fi VCR and a nice
stereo, a full fridge, a microwave, a UNIX system, two phone lines,
a high speed modem, internet access.... and thou."
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:54:21 +0200
>PCs have this
>view that if they piss off their GM, BAD things are bound to happen to
>their character. Not true (in most cases, anyway)!

If you look at the character mortuary on my page, there are at least two or
three entries that read "Cause of death: <blah blah blah> (pissed off the
GM)." When I type those in I always wonder what kind of GMs those are...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
En ik zeg je weer niet wat ik nu denk dat ik je eigenlijk zeggen wil...
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 36
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:54:26 +0200
>I've had the same set for over five years. About two years I had a
>character who could not fail any etiquette test. She was the same way with
>negotiation/fast talk. My dice haven't rolled the same since.

Since we're talking about how one character always rolls this or that, our
shaman, up until about a month ago, rolled 17 for initiative 9 out of 10
times. Wound modifiers or not, her total initiative was nearly always 17.
And my rigger/samurai/wannabe-rocker usually rolls only one success on any
Intelligence test, even against a TN of 4 with the 8 dice he's got.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
En ik zeg je weer niet wat ik nu denk dat ik je eigenlijk zeggen wil...
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 37
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:18:08 +0200
:->> I say "roll the dice," and if they roll high, the player
:->>:->>succeeds. If they roll low, well, tough luck but the lock stays shut.
:->No
:->>:->>actual numbers, most of the time, just "That looks good. Let's
keep
:->it."
:->
:->>:->That's what I do. Usually, that's when one of the players rolls a 29.
:->>:->
:->
:->>I assume that counts for the 44 a player rolled for athletics one
:->>(vs T#2)
:->
:->Which brings up a thing I've been thinking about...
:->
:->When the player just "rolls the dice" which is worth most? Rolling 24 on
one
:->of the 4 dice or rolling all 6es ? Which should be considered the most
:->impressive feat?
:->
:->How do you guys do it? I usually say "ok it worked" if the players roll a
:->single die above 9 or so. Could really piss them of to say "Man...only ONE
:->24? Sorry, didn't work."
:->
:->
Even if with the 24 you only get one success, the way we work the
system is the style in which it is done. Ok you may not throw the
most perfect punch, get the info that quickly or what ever, but still
24 is 24, that occurs rarely, the style in which you managed to
achieve the task will be remembered. (Added to that your opponents
attribute you more skill than you actually have)

That aside, we reworked the system slightly, for each uneven multiple
of a number you recieve another success. ie Phoenix (our resident
pyromaniac) rolls vs T#2 for a spell. He manages on 6 dice
10,7,4,4,3,1. Normally this would be 5 successes normally. However
under our system the 10 counts as 3 successes (2*5), the 7 two,
and each of the others 1 a total of 8 successes

T#*1 = 1 success
T#*3 = 2 successes
T#*5 = 3 successes
our limit is 3 successes per die. If you roll above 23, well
then you have an option of a Karma point or the successes

Andre'

Man is a teller of stories, he lives by and is surrounded by his
own stories and those of other people, he sees everythings that
happens to him in terms of these stories and thus has to live
enacting them
-Sarte

GARFIELD !
-Jon
Message no. 38
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 22:22:56 +1000
Paul Jonathan Adam writes:

> It comes down to trust. If players and GM trust each other it doesn't really
> matter. A few players will cheat rolls. It's not exactly hard to spot: do
> the same thing back to them. I used to borrow one persistent offender's
> dice to use "his lucky high-rollers" when NPCs shot at him. He took the
hint.

I know that feeling. One of my players is a notorious cheat when it comes to
dice rolling. He comes up with an absolutely amazing number of 6's when he
rolls dice. Fortunately I know (actually, everyone in our group knows, and
he knows everyone knows, it's kind of a running joke), and so it's easy to
compensate for. Thing is, he gets real grumpy when the others watch him roll
so's that he can't change the numbers, or roll them on the other side of his
chair from the rest of us, or whatever, so I just let him do it and
compensate with the figures and stats behind my screen. It doesn't do to
have grumpy players, as grumpy players don't enjoy themselves as much.

As for other dice roll fudging, I tend to steer right away unless it's
absoluetly critical to the plot of the run (excepting the BigBadDude at the
end sometimes [no good for the runners to arrive at Bad Guy HQ, fight their
way through hoards of enemies intent on ending their miserable lives for
them, only to kill the BigBadDude in under a turn - kinda dissapointing].

I remember when I ran Dragon Hunt, at the end one of the players shot
Blackwing with a grenade. And I rolled, and out of 14 dice I had 6 1's, 4
2's and a single 5. Blackwing got minced. But, that's good luck, if he
hadn't have gone down them in one foul blow, he'd have escaped, and been
good for future runs. But, luck is luck, so I let it stand since it wasn't
really important to the run. I don't think really lucky or unlucky rolls
should be "altered" if at all possible, unless it's really critical to the
storyline. After all, most of the truely exciting parts of many novels and
movies either come about due to luck or are solved by it. Besides, such
situations are often highly amusing. Like when an astral wagemage beats the
crap out of two astral PC initiates, forcing them to use team karma to avoid
losing the fight.

Nor do I really think characters should be saved if they really bung up big
time and get themselves into a situation where a sniper with Firearms 6 has
three turns to aim at them. If they got there by accident, or bad luck,
maybe, but not really if it was due to extremely poor planning. But I'm a
hypocrite, as I'd probably wrangle some way to save their worthless hides
anyway (I'm a softy :-)).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 19:42:18 +0200
>When the player just "rolls the dice" which is worth most? Rolling 24 on one
>of the 4 dice or rolling all 6es ? Which should be considered the most
>impressive feat?

Rolling four 6s. It doesn't matter how high you roll, as long as you beat
the TN. Even if you manage to roll 217635273 on one die, you still have only
one success.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
En ik zeg je weer niet wat ik nu denk dat ik je eigenlijk zeggen wil...
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 40
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:58:24 -0700
>:->When the player just "rolls the dice" which is worth most? Rolling 24
on one
>:->of the 4 dice or rolling all 6es ? Which should be considered the most
>:->impressive feat?
>:->
>:->How do you guys do it? I usually say "ok it worked" if the players
roll a
>:->single die above 9 or so. Could really piss them of to say "Man...only ONE
>:->24? Sorry, didn't work."
>:->
>:->
> Even if with the 24 you only get one success, the way we work the
>system is the style in which it is done.
>
>That aside, we reworked the system slightly, for each uneven multiple
>of a number you recieve another success. ie Phoenix (our resident
>pyromaniac) rolls vs T#2 for a spell. He manages on 6 dice
>10,7,4,4,3,1. Normally this would be 5 successes normally. However
>under our system the 10 counts as 3 successes (2*5), the 7 two,
>and each of the others 1 a total of 8 successes
>
> T#*1 = 1 success
> T#*3 = 2 successes
> T#*5 = 3 successes
> our limit is 3 successes per die. If you roll above 23, well
>then you have an option of a Karma point or the successes.
>
> Andre'
>
We modified the system as well (my players had an uncanny knack for rolling
at least one die at 20+ ). We said for every 7 points over the TN rolled an
additional success was gained. Thus in Andre's example TN2 would need a roll
of a 9, 16, 23, ect... With a 10,7,4,4,3,1 there would be 5 + 1 success =
6. (Why 7? we played with several different techniques, and this seemed to
produce the most balanced results, not too many or two few) I like Andre's
system as well.

Additionally, if a TN was exceed by 4* its rating (TN 2 would be an 8) a
special effect would occur, as decided by a gm (not like special effects
didn't occur anyway, but for those players that like to see the numbers we
created this rule).

Enjoy.
Brian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next on Entertaining Today/Tomarrow?Tosometimes:
The movie everyone has been waiting for...
Without a Clue in Tucson
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Staring that blondest of blonds, Nurse Wratchet, with co-stars
I'll Never Tell and Dirty Little Secret.

Stay Tuned for the chill, next, after these messages.
**************************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet" aka bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu aka
brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
**************************************************************************
Message no. 41
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:48:00 MDT
>How do you guys do it? I usually say "ok it worked" if the players roll a
>single die above 9 or so. Could really piss them of to say "Man...only ONE
>24? Sorry, didn't work."
>
>


I tend to ask what were the numbers, say there was a 2, 4, 11, and a 24. To
me that's worth alot of information. On the other hand, if he would have
gotten, say 2, 4, 5, and a 9. He wouldn't have gotten all the details he
got with the previous roll. It just depends on how tired I am, and how much
thought I'm going to put into it.


(P.S. Watching an incredible roll of an 24 and just saying; "She really,
REALLY loves you!" will get you killed.)


Jill
Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:13:30 +0200
>(P.S. Watching an incredible roll of an 24 and just saying; "She really,
>REALLY loves you!" will get you killed.)

How do you figure that?

Actually, I don't really see the point in re-rolling until you don't get a 6
anymore. The way we play it is the basic SR method of "Above the TN? A
success" no matter how high you roll.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Expect nothing
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 43
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 13:19:00 PDT
>Actually, I don't really see the point in re-rolling until you don't get a
6
>anymore. The way we play it is the basic SR method of "Above the TN? A
>success" no matter how high you roll.

Yeah. That works fine when you have a fixed TN. However, some of us aren't
always sure of what the players should roll to succeed. Or how many times
they should roll it. I usually tell them, for example, "Ok, roll physical
sciences..." without having an idea of what they should roll. Thinking it up
100% correct could slow down game pace too much. So I check what the guy
rolled and then figure if he made it or not. When I saw that others did this
too I wanted to know what they valued most. Four sixes or a single 24 was
just an example.


MxM
Message no. 44
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 13:10:15 GMT
"Lindblom Fredrik, Training"writes

> Yeah. That works fine when you have a fixed TN. However, some of us aren't
> always sure of what the players should roll to succeed. Or how many times
> they should roll it. I usually tell them, for example, "Ok, roll physical
> sciences..." without having an idea of what they should roll.
often easy to just say roll ______ skill/ attribute for knowing and
noticing things.

> Thinking it up 100% correct could slow down game pace too much.
leafing through rules books - to be avoided if possible, i cannot
remember when i last read that section of the main book, i also just
have a look at the dice.

> So I check what the guy
> rolled and then figure if he made it or not. When I saw that others did this
> too I wanted to know what they valued most. Four sixes or a single 24 was
> just an example.
>
usually if i ask for rolls like this its a case of 'a piece of
information' that the plyers might like, eg identifying coincidences,
and all i am really looking for is a good selection of reasonable
rolls, (around the 5 area) or 1 really decent roll (10 to 11) either
will do , number above 12 are typically good enough though a 12+
might be worth 2 6's it is probalbly not worth what those 6's open
end to (say an 8 and 10). Matter of what i feel like at the time,
seems reasonable, and keeps the action going as fast as possible.
(nothing wrecks a good bit of roleplaying or firefight more than the
gm dissapearing into a pile of books for 5 minutes while he does
loads of reading/maths)

>
> MxM
>
ok not a clear answer but i don't really have one.

Mark
Message no. 45
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 17:16:00 MDT
>Actually, I don't really see the point in re-rolling until you don't get a 6
>anymore. The way we play it is the basic SR method of "Above the TN? A
>success" no matter how high you roll.
>
>


When we're rolling against a TN, your right, there is no point in
re-rolling. Once you fail, you fail. I'm pretty lax when I'm giving out
information, and ONLY information. With the higher the roll, I figure,
either a) they paid good money for really detailed info or b) they got the
right person drunk.
Message no. 46
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: more whining
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 10:01:33 +0200
>Yeah. That works fine when you have a fixed TN. However, some of us aren't
>always sure of what the players should roll to succeed. Or how many times
>they should roll it. I usually tell them, for example, "Ok, roll physical
>sciences..." without having an idea of what they should roll. Thinking it up
>100% correct could slow down game pace too much. So I check what the guy
>rolled and then figure if he made it or not. When I saw that others did this
>too I wanted to know what they valued most. Four sixes or a single 24 was
>just an example.

I know what you mean, I run into these sorts of things a lot too. My
solution is still the "Say: 'Roll The Dice' Method." When the player does
so, I look at the dice. If he's got any sixes /and/ I feel like opening my
mouth again (it's important everything qualifies for both these points :), I
say "And the six(es)?" and then he rolls them again. Simple as that. No
fixed TN, if I like what he's rolled without the re-rolled 6s, I keep that.
If I don't, I let him roll them again...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Expect nothing
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
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Guru :)

Further Reading

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