Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 16:24:34 GMT
The morph rifle in the Tir Na nOg source book. What are people's impressions
on it ? If anything it seems underpowered, first off here's a rough description
of what the book says about it for those of you without the book.

MORPH SEEKING RIFLE

This rifle integrates through a special smartgun link into the users brain
cortex and motor functions. It also contains state of the art image
recognition that enables the gun ready to fire only when it is 99 percent
certain of it's target (the user can overule if they wish). When the gun
is ready to fire it links up with the actions of the sniper to enable to him
to get the best shot possible.

Used for counter terrorist activities these guns are specially made for each
user, a special retinal scanner, internal id, and palmprints are among the
few things that identify the user to the rifle. If an unauthorised person
uses the rifle then it explodes, most likely taking the person's hand with it.

Rough stats.
Conceal N/A
Ammo 6(m)
Damage 16 S
Smart gun link: 1.0 essence
Cost N/A

Ok, it's a nice gun but my problem is when it gets down to the bottom line
the only advantage offered in game terms is the improved damage code (16 S).
Which isn't even that much when you consider a standard sniper rifle with
explosive ammo does 15 S.

So my suggestions are:

First off the gun has two modes of operation, standard and morph seeking.

In standard mode it is just a good rifle, 16S.
In morph mode, an image of the target is fed into the gun prior to it being
fired. The system carefully controls the persons actions through the fancy
smart gun link to achieve the best shot.

In game terms I think this should mean.

a) Negating of any partial and full cover modifiers. If the target is blind
well there's not much the gun can do about a target it cannot see.

b) The addition of 6 extra dice to the firearms test. Effectively giving
most expert snipers a rifle skill of at least 12 + combat pool dice.

Let me know what you think.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Let's get out there
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | and TWAT it !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse
Message no. 2
From: Mike Loseke <MLoseke@*****.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 11:21:50 MST
>The morph rifle in the Tir Na nOg source book. What are people's impressions
>on it ? If anything it seems underpowered, first off here's a rough
>description
>of what the book says about it for those of you without the book.

{stats & stuff deleted)

>So my suggestions are:

>First off the gun has two modes of operation, standard and morph seeking.

>In game terms I think this should mean.

>a) Negating of any partial and full cover modifiers. If the target is blind
>well there's not much the gun can do about a target it cannot see.

I agree here; the weapon is most likely targetting a certain area of an
individual. If half of the guy is behind cover the weapon wouldn't care,
it would just make a solution for the bits of him that it could see.

>b) The addition of 6 extra dice to the firearms test. Effectively giving
>most expert snipers a rifle skill of at least 12 + combat pool dice.

Since the PCs should never have these weapons in the first place, I'd just
say "Bang! Yer dead!" That's the whole idea behind Tir na' Nog from my
impressions.

Legion
Message no. 3
From: ANGLISS@****.PSU.EDU
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 14:26:24 -0400
Actually, have any of you seen the Celtic Double Cross module? I looked
through it and if you get out of TNO, you win. If you don't, you either die
after a secret trial or you go to jail for a LONG time. Nasty.

Brian
Message no. 4
From: Neal A Porter <nap@*****.PHYSICS.SWIN.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 12:26:17 +1100
>
>>The morph rifle in the Tir Na nOg source book. What are people's impressions
>>on it ? If anything it seems underpowered, first off here's a rough
>>description
>>of what the book says about it for those of you without the book.
>
>{stats & stuff deleted)
>
>>So my suggestions are:
>
>>First off the gun has two modes of operation, standard and morph seeking.
>
>>In game terms I think this should mean.
>
>>a) Negating of any partial and full cover modifiers. If the target is blind
>>well there's not much the gun can do about a target it cannot see.
>
>I agree here; the weapon is most likely targetting a certain area of an
>individual. If half of the guy is behind cover the weapon wouldn't care,
>it would just make a solution for the bits of him that it could see.
>
>>b) The addition of 6 extra dice to the firearms test. Effectively giving
>>most expert snipers a rifle skill of at least 12 + combat pool dice.
>
>Since the PCs should never have these weapons in the first place, I'd just
>say "Bang! Yer dead!" That's the whole idea behind Tir na' Nog from my
>impressions.
>
>Legion
>

Good point, the chars shouldn't get one of these, and if they did it wouldn't
work for them. The rifle is made for one user only, and if the chars have the
pull to get one made for them why dont they just use a Banshee. The B would
be easier to get a hold of.
As the the effect the rifle has if used against the players, the operators of
these rifles are expert shots and that one shot will probably kill outright, with
or without extra mods.

Adeus.
Message no. 5
From: Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 21:22:15 +22310502
Since I have never seen the stats for this item, I must say that I can
include little of value regarding it's use. I must say that 6 dice is a bit
much in my opinion. Two of three at most, but probably just one would be
fine. Mabie add the two the the power too. That is if you want the players
to have it. Got to make us players fight for every bonus. Part of the fun.

If you give it to your NPC's that is another story. Our GM would include it
and make it BetaWare and give it a minimum of 6 extra dice. Then he would
send a single one of these folks after us, just to frighten the heck out of
us and keep us out of ANY elvin nation. Pretty much do the trick too.

I sort of think of it the way I do the BioWare Articulated Joints idea.
Having the additional die for all physical actions is kind of handy. There
is no real reason to make it more than one die. That is a good bit of edge
by itself. Things that increase firearms skill all the more so.

As for letting the players have this, well, sure. Of course they have to A)
know that it exists and B) be able to find it. Our GM askes us specifically
to not look at the suppliments as players. That way we never find out about
the new equipment at all and he can put it into a game when he wants to. It
also prevents us from running to him every time a suppilment comes out and
asking for stuff. What do you all think of this? We kind of enjoy it.

Then they have to find the equipment. For the item you specified (with the
+6 dice) there would be a target # of about 36-40 and only one try at the
end of each adventure. Using the Karma Pool to search could allow us to
find it, but the odds are still poor. And of course the moment we failed
even once certain people would take an interest in who is after their tech.
Polite questioning, preferably in a remote underground bunker, would insue.
--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch
Message no. 6
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 00:09:56 -0600
The Morph God Gun:

>>a) Negating of any partial and full cover modifiers. If the target is blind
>>well there's not much the gun can do about a target it cannot see.

If a target is blind the gun cannot see? Do you mean if the wielder of this
horrible weapon cannot see the target? I presume you do.

What are the limits of this weapon's recognition abilities? If all it can see
is my hand and leather covered arm, will it recognize me as friend or foe?
I think a better definition would be defining the weapon to work with a
system similar to the modern day IFF transponders in use today on aircraft;

>I agree here; the weapon is most likely targetting a certain area of an
>individual. If half of the guy is behind cover the weapon wouldn't care,
>it would just make a solution for the bits of him that it could see.

Rather than negating both mods, try halving them or moving them a step down
(partial becomes none, full becomes partial) and see what happens. Even a little
cover helps.

>>b) The addition of 6 extra dice to the firearms test. Effectively giving
>>most expert snipers a rifle skill of at least 12 + combat pool dice.

Obscene and Munchkinous, especially if you add it to the effective skill level.
Sam with Firearms 6 + 6 additional dice and rolls his 12 die combat pool
splatters the nearest Citymaster as 20 out of 24 dice hit at close range.
Boom jam.

Even limiting it to +6 after other mods is obscene, leading to 15/18 dice
succeeding. I fail to see why it would add to skill, or even how it differs
from the standard smartlink at all, short of this "IFF" ability which is
merely moved from the Sam's to the machine's perception of friend/foe.

>Since the PCs should never have these weapons in the first place, I'd just
>say "Bang! Yer dead!" That's the whole idea behind Tir na' Nog from my

While you may be correct, it should not be this way. The opposition should
be tough, but not unstoppable. Otherwise there is no point in playing.

> Good point, the chars shouldn't get one of these, and if they did it wouldn't
>work for them. The rifle is made for one user only, and if the chars have the

What's good for the NPCs is good for the PCs. Of course, ownership of such
a weapon would garner attention of the worst kind, not only from TNO forces
but also government and corporate interests who would desire to obtain these
weapons for their own purposes, as well as removing them from the possesion
of such unstable variables as Shadowrunners.

> As to the effect the rifle has if used against the players, the operators of
>these rifles are expert shots and that one shot will probably kill outright,
>with or without extra mods.

Such instant death is already possible with existing technology. If the GM's
goal is to kill PCs, I suggest Paranoia or a militant Albedo campaign.

>Is it me or does the Morph Rifle remind you all
>of the guns that the Sandmen in Logan's Run carried.

Not offhand, no. It is a rifle, not a pistol, and while I have not perused
TNO the description of the weapon here made no mention of Gyroc-type rounds,
which is what I gathered the Sandmen to be using when I saw the movie. (I
have not seen much of the TV show). Also, I do not recall this obscene target
differentiation ability from the movie, though it's been a while since I saw
it.

>If anyone other than the user touched the handle, the
>gun exploded. It had several special rounds for it.

This is cool, and IMHO should be a security device available for more mundane
weaponry. basically it's a palmprint reader with memory for a number of
"legal" handprints, and the consequences of being an invalid user could
range from the gun simply not functioning to the aforementioned explosion
of the weapon in one's hand.

>fine. Mabie add the two the the power too. That is if you want the players
>to have it. Got to make us players fight for every bonus. Part of the fun.

Superior skill will not increase the power of an attack. If you want to
modify the mechanics of hitting someone, lower the TN rather than add
dice or increase the power of the weapon.

J Roberson
Message no. 7
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 00:54:32 -0600
>recognition that enables the gun ready to fire only when it is 99 percent
>certain of it's target (the user can overule if they wish).

99% sure that it will hit or 99% sure that the target is not a friend?
If the former is true then my previous assesment was misinformed. To me,
such a feature could prove detrimental in combat.

Try making it effectively a +3 smartgun link. Obscene, yes, but not as much as
+6 dice on a success test.

J Roberson.
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 19:37:42 +0930
>MORPH SEEKING RIFLE
>
>This rifle integrates through a special smartgun link into the users brain
>cortex and motor functions. It also contains state of the art image
>recognition that enables the gun ready to fire only when it is 99 percent
>certain of it's target (the user can overule if they wish). When the gun
>is ready to fire it links up with the actions of the sniper to enable to him
>to get the best shot possible.
>
>Used for counter terrorist activities these guns are specially made for each
>user, a special retinal scanner, internal id, and palmprints are among the
>few things that identify the user to the rifle. If an unauthorised person
>uses the rifle then it explodes, most likely taking the person's hand with it.
>
>Rough stats.
>Conceal N/A
>Ammo 6(m)
>Damage 16 S
>Smart gun link: 1.0 essence
>Cost N/A
>
>Ok, it's a nice gun but my problem is when it gets down to the bottom line
>the only advantage offered in game terms is the improved damage code (16 S).
>Which isn't even that much when you consider a standard sniper rifle with
>explosive ammo does 15 S.
>
Why do you object to this? What do you want, a rifle that does more damage
than a Panther Assault Cannon??

>So my suggestions are:
>
>First off the gun has two modes of operation, standard and morph seeking.
>
>In standard mode it is just a good rifle, 16S.
>In morph mode, an image of the target is fed into the gun prior to it being
>fired. The system carefully controls the persons actions through the fancy
>smart gun link to achieve the best shot.
>
>In game terms I think this should mean.
>
>a) Negating of any partial and full cover modifiers. If the target is blind
>well there's not much the gun can do about a target it cannot see.

Why full cover? Full cover is exactly that: FULL. You have to shoot through
it to hit the target.

I'd also object to the negation of the partial cover modifiers. Given that
the TN, with partial cover, is only going to be 8 (assuming it's got a
scope), and aiming can reduce this down to 5, negation is going to make it
impossible to avoid. (Of course that might be the idea).

>
>b) The addition of 6 extra dice to the firearms test. Effectively giving
>most expert snipers a rifle skill of at least 12 + combat pool dice.
>
Most definately NO NO NO NO NO!!!! Most importantly, WHY?? What I'd read it
as is allowing the smartgun link to work with the scope.

(BTW, I'd say an expert sniper would have a skill of 8, minimum.)

>Phill.

--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 9
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 14:41:56 GMT
MORPH WEAPONS - The debate continues...........................................

Ok, I'll just reply to this post regarding the morph guns but my comments go
for the other posts as well.

> If a target is blind the gun cannot see? Do you mean if the wielder of this
> horrible weapon cannot see the target? I presume you do.

Both, I suppose, the gun has an advanced image recognition system built into
it that identifies targets. If the target is blind then there is nothing to
see, same goes for the sniper.

> What are the limits of this weapon's recognition abilities? If all it can see
> is my hand and leather covered arm, will it recognize me as friend or foe?
> I think a better definition would be defining the weapon to work with a
> system similar to the modern day IFF transponders in use today on aircraft;

Good question, and one that isn't explained very well by the short description
in the TNO book. I guess if all it sees is a hand then it can only indicate
a 5 percent probability of correct target acquisition and so it's up to the
sniper if he wants to overule the weapon and fire at that hand. In that case
you have a normal sniper rifle that does 16S damage.

Btw what's an IFF transponder ?

> Rather than negating both mods, try halving them or moving them a step down
> (partial becomes none, full becomes partial) and see what happens. Even a
little
> cover helps.

I like this idea, not quite as munchkin as negating the mods, I think I'd halve
them though instead of moving them down a level.

> >>b) The addition of 6 extra dice to the firearms test. Effectively giving
> >>most expert snipers a rifle skill of at least 12 + combat pool dice.
>
> Obscene and Munchkinous, especially if you add it to the effective skill
level.
> Sam with Firearms 6 + 6 additional dice and rolls his 12 die combat pool
> splatters the nearest Citymaster as 20 out of 24 dice hit at close range.
> Boom jam.

Yep, the sniper would have alot of dice but I doubt that he would be able to
take out Citymasters, I think their armour is about 15 at least.

> Even limiting it to +6 after other mods is obscene, leading to 15/18 dice
> succeeding. I fail to see why it would add to skill, or even how it differs
> from the standard smartlink at all, short of this "IFF" ability which is
> merely moved from the Sam's to the machine's perception of friend/foe.

Alot of dice admittedly, someone suggested +3 only, maybe this would be more
reasonable. As to the smartgun link, look at how much essence this baby uses
1.0, and that's the beta version, this thing doesn't have a standard version.
I think you should get something for that extra 0.5 point of essence that you
don't get from a normal smartgun link.

> >Since the PCs should never have these weapons in the first place, I'd just
> >say "Bang! Yer dead!" That's the whole idea behind Tir na' Nog from my
>
> While you may be correct, it should not be this way. The opposition should
> be tough, but not unstoppable. Otherwise there is no point in playing.

Well here comes the big admission, I gave one of my characters this weapon but
I'm still deciding on it's abilities, at the moment they haven't used it but
I said I was considering making it more useful instead of the 16 S damage code.
Before people start shouting saying, it's an NPC only gun, I have my reasons,
the character playing is a new character and isn't munchkinous at all, nor do
I run a munchkinous campaign, but when I heard this characters background (he's
from the TT not TNO), I decided to get creative.

> > Good point, the chars shouldn't get one of these, and if they did it
wouldn'
> >work for them. The rifle is made for one user only, and if the chars have the
>
> What's good for the NPCs is good for the PCs. Of course, ownership of such
> a weapon would garner attention of the worst kind, not only from TNO forces
> but also government and corporate interests who would desire to obtain these
> weapons for their own purposes, as well as removing them from the possesion
> of such unstable variables as Shadowrunners.

Ah but in general it really shouldn't be for PC's, I know I gave one of mine
one but he had it it before he came to Seattle (there's loads of background
which results in a slightly non-standard SR game, but we're happy). The best
part is none of the other characters know about this gun. Should they see it
and try to use it then they'll find out that this is an exploding gun. The
character who owns it is also under strict orders from his boss (Lord Shen
Tathern) that no one should find out about it as it's top secret weaponry that
they nicked from TNO.

> > As to the effect the rifle has if used against the players, the operators
of
> >these rifles are expert shots and that one shot will probably kill outright,
> >with or without extra mods.
>
> Such instant death is already possible with existing technology. If the GM's
> goal is to kill PCs, I suggest Paranoia or a militant Albedo campaign.

Well instant death is a different argument but when it comes down to it these
things are _less_ powerful than an assault cannon and believe me I've known
players that use these things for sniper rifles. I suggested the mods because
such a big fuss is made in the TNO book about how secret this weapon is and
how powerful it is, but when it came down to the stats it was not a patch on
an assault cannon which I know many players in campaigns have.

> >Is it me or does the Morph Rifle remind you all
> >of the guns that the Sandmen in Logan's Run carried.
>
> Not offhand, no. It is a rifle, not a pistol, and while I have not perused
> TNO the description of the weapon here made no mention of Gyroc-type rounds,
> which is what I gathered the Sandmen to be using when I saw the movie. (I
> have not seen much of the TV show). Also, I do not recall this obscene target
> differentiation ability from the movie, though it's been a while since I saw
> it.

Can't remember much of the guns, loved the series though, my favourite things
were the android and the solar powered car. But the gun is a rifle and as far
as I understand it fires standard ammo, no mention is made of it firing anything
else.

> >If anyone other than the user touched the handle, the
> >gun exploded. It had several special rounds for it.
>
> This is cool, and IMHO should be a security device available for more mundane
> weaponry. basically it's a palmprint reader with memory for a number of
> "legal" handprints, and the consequences of being an invalid user could
> range from the gun simply not functioning to the aforementioned explosion
> of the weapon in one's hand.

Ah, but palm-prints can be faked, this thing is even better it only works with
one particular smart gun link. Ie each gun is specially tailored for 1 user.
It also includes such things as a retina scan using the fancy smart gun link
again.


To summarise.

The gun is described as being state of the art and very powerful but the game
stats don't stand out that description, except for the improved smart gun link
which takes 1.0 point of essence but adds no extra abilities bar the gun - user
recognition system.

What I suggested was 2 modes of operation.

1) Standard : Simply a sniper rifle that does 16 S with a built in SGL that
checks to see if the person using it is the person that should be using it.

2) Target mode : As above but now uses the fancy electronics in the gun and
SGL.

An image of the target is fed in prior and the gun only becomes
ready to fire when it is 99 percent certain that it has it's target (this
can be overuled but that makes it like the standard rifle again).

When the target is identified the gun's electronics integrate with the motor
fucntions of the snipers brain to provide an optimal shot.

In game terms (now revised from before) I think this would mean :-
+3 firearms dice
halving of partial and full cover mods

That doesn't sound too bad now, but when I get chance I'll bring my TNO book
to the lab so that I can type in exactly what the book says about the weapon.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Let's get out there
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | and TWAT it !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse
Message no. 10
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 10:22:53 -0600
~>a) Negating of any partial and full cover modifiers. If the target is blind
~>well there's not much the gun can do about a target it cannot see.

~Why full cover? Full cover is exactly that: FULL. You have to shoot through
~it to hit the target.

You know, I thought about that too, but I figure full cover isn't literally
full. If it was you'd be firing through a barrier. I think it means more
than 75% of the target is covered, like if he blindly fires
by sticking his arm around a corner.


J Roberson
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 02:22:08 +0930
>
>~>a) Negating of any partial and full cover modifiers. If the target is blind
>~>well there's not much the gun can do about a target it cannot see.
>
>~Why full cover? Full cover is exactly that: FULL. You have to shoot through
>~it to hit the target.
>
>You know, I thought about that too, but I figure full cover isn't literally
>full. If it was you'd be firing through a barrier. I think it means more
>than 75% of the target is covered, like if he blindly fires
>by sticking his arm around a corner.
>
>
>J Roberson

Well, that's how I play full cover. :)
There were full cover modifiers in 1st ed, but not in 2dn, as far as I can
tell.



--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 12
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 15:19:09 -0500
On Wed, 15 Dec 1993, The Powerhouse wrote:

> Both, I suppose, the gun has an advanced image recognition system built into
> it that identifies targets. If the target is blind then there is nothing to
> see, same goes for the sniper.

Sounds heavy to me
>
> Btw what's an IFF transponder ?
>
that is Identification Friend or Foe - a term usually assoa\ciated with
transponders and aircraft - and before the hail of they are on this or
that - i did say usually
> Ah, but palm-prints can be faked,....It also includes such things as a
retina scan using the fancy smart gun link.
>
these thing can be overcome too by using the real owners hand or eye..of
course the owner is usually hesitant to part with these body parts but...

the whole idea sound kinda boring to me..i mean a weapon that gives a 99%
chance to hit or id a friend kinda takes the fun out of things
-------------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 13
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 11:10:57 GMT
> > Both, I suppose, the gun has an advanced image recognition system built into
> > it that identifies targets. If the target is blind then there is nothing to
> > see, same goes for the sniper.
>
> Sounds heavy to me

Not really, if the target is blind then it means you can't see it therefore no
optical system will be able to see the target either.

> that is Identification Friend or Foe - a term usually assoa\ciated with
> transponders and aircraft - and before the hail of they are on this or
> that - i did say usually

I didn't think Americans used them at all :)

> > Ah, but palm-prints can be faked,....It also includes such things as a
> retina scan using the fancy smart gun link.
> >
> these thing can be overcome too by using the real owners hand or eye..of
> course the owner is usually hesitant to part with these body parts but...

Not just that but you have the problem of the SGL, this thing wends it's way
from your hand to the eyes and brain, so you'd need the actuall person then
force them to fire the gun for you. Control actions spell would be the best
way.

> the whole idea sound kinda boring to me..i mean a weapon that gives a 99%
> chance to hit or id a friend kinda takes the fun out of things

Not a 99% chance to hit, just a 99% indentification. The TN is still going to
be vary depending on the situation. As to taking the fun out of things, well
this is a specialist sniper rifle, you need the morph (image of target ?)
signature prior to using the gun in this mode. If you just want to use it as
a standard rifle then it acts only as good sniper rifle with some very good
anti theft gear built into it.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Let's get out there
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | and TWAT it !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse
Message no. 14
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 03:29:27 -0600
>> If a target is blind the gun cannot see? Do you mean if the wielder of this
>> horrible weapon cannot see the target? I presume you do.

>Both, I suppose, the gun has an advanced image recognition system built into
>it that identifies targets. If the target is blind then there is nothing to
>see, same goes for the sniper.

When you say the target is blind you mean "target cannot be seen". Read what you
wrote very carefully, because what you're saying is that if the target is
physically unable to see, as in, he is blind, with dog and cane, the gun
wil not work as described. What soes it do, scold the marksman for shooting
poor defenseless blind people? :)

>Yep, the sniper would have alot of dice but I doubt that he would be able to
>take out Citymasters, I think their armour is about 15 at least.

Give me a point for hyperbole :)

>Ah, but palm-prints can be faked, this thing is even better it only works with
>one particular smart gun link. Ie each gun is specially tailored for 1 user.
>It also includes such things as a retina scan using the fancy smart gun link
>again.

But many scanners are smart and will recognize if a body part is dead, either
via separation or dragging a corpse around.


J Roberson
Message no. 15
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 17:28:16 GMT
In reply to The Deb Decker .....

> When you say the target is blind you mean "target cannot be seen". Read
what
you
> wrote very carefully, because what you're saying is that if the target is
> physically unable to see, as in, he is blind, with dog and cane, the gun
> wil not work as described. What soes it do, scold the marksman for shooting
> poor defenseless blind people? :)

Oh sorry didn't I mention that additional feature of the gun ? No, it won't
shoot blind people, disabled people, any socially disadvantaged group, people
who go round with "Green War" logo's on their shirts, women oh and whales.

> >Yep, the sniper would have alot of dice but I doubt that he would be able to
> >take out Citymasters, I think their armour is about 15 at least.
>
> Give me a point for hyperbole :)

[Looks up hyperbole in the dictionary] sorry not in this one :)

> But many scanners are smart and will recognize if a body part is dead, either
> via separation or dragging a corpse around.

Yep, see my comments in a previous message. The user really has to be alive to
use this thing, no one else can unless through a control actions spell.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Let's get out there
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | and TWAT it !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse
Message no. 16
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 18:06:25 -0500
>
> But many scanners are smart and will recognize if a body part is dead, either
> via separation or dragging a corpse around.
>
>
> J Roberson
>
THIs is true however, i would almost bet that a portable [the spelling on
that word just doesn't look right] scanner would probably not be that
complex
-------------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 17
From: Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 19:39:37 +22310502
I had assumed that it comes with its own special rifle too. If not the
additional power is a bit out of line. It should require a hardware
modification to accomplish that.

This sounds like a device that was born for use with a tactical computer...
--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch
Message no. 18
From: Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 19:48:10 +22310502
I don't think it should tell you if the target is a friend of foe. Let
anyone who has ths system buy a tactical computer if they want that option.
It costs that much essence for a reason.

It is always creates an interesting situation for the players when they
shoot the wrong person...

Player 1: "er...is that the guy we were supposed to shoot?"

Player 2: "no, but I hope he wasn't important...um...are those his body
guards?..."

--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch
Message no. 19
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph seeking weapons
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 02:13:02 -0600
Regarding the ability of scanners to differentiate between living and
dead prints:

>ThIs is true however, i would almost bet that a portable [the spelling on
>that word just doesn't look right] scanner would probably not be that
>complex

This is of course simply a matter of opinion, but I don't think it's too
much more complex. At the least it measures heat, though admittedly such
a simple means of differentiation could be fooled with the flick of a bic.

J Roberson
Message no. 20
From: James dillane <lakashim@*******.COM>
Subject: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:19:37 PDT
Hi. Back again.

What is the point behind the Morph Seeking Weapons in Tir Na Nog? 1
essence point for a sniper rifle with a smart link? The book also
mentions something about computer interlink to recognize faces. But what
good would this do? Couldn't joe average anti-terrorist assassin
recognize a target or potential target just as well?

The other thing is, in Celtic Double Cross they say the data about the
rifle is worth 4 million nuyen. The data store has plans about a rifle
and it's interface worth that much and it only recognizes terrorists? I
must be missing something. And I don't think the reason the data is so
valuable is because of the Terrorist profiles and ID's. That is
mentioned in a different Data Store.

So could someone explain this to me?
Thanks for the help.

"Sipping from the Spring of Immortality is only the Beginning..." Psalm
of Ananda


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 21
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:25:50 EDT
In a message dated 7/29/98 9:20:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
lakashim@*******.COM writes:

> What is the point behind the Morph Seeking Weapons in Tir Na Nog? 1
> essence point for a sniper rifle with a smart link? The book also
> mentions something about computer interlink to recognize faces. But what
> good would this do? Couldn't joe average anti-terrorist assassin
> recognize a target or potential target just as well?
>
> The other thing is, in Celtic Double Cross they say the data about the
> rifle is worth 4 million nuyen. The data store has plans about a rifle
> and it's interface worth that much and it only recognizes terrorists? I
> must be missing something. And I don't think the reason the data is so
> valuable is because of the Terrorist profiles and ID's. That is
> mentioned in a different Data Store.
>
> So could someone explain this to me?
>
The whole thing about the Morphseeker guns is this ... you can set the gun to
determine the accuracy rating (usually set for 100%) and this determines the
succcess rating, without having to roll any dice at all.

That is why a Morphseeker is something to be truly afraid of.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 22
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:54:25 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-29 22:22:05 EDT, you write:

> The other thing is, in Celtic Double Cross they say the data about the
> rifle is worth 4 million nuyen. The data store has plans about a rifle
> and it's interface worth that much and it only recognizes terrorists? I
> must be missing something.

It's not so much as the Terrorist profiles would be worth so much, but the
tech would. Tir Na Nog has rights to the Morph-Seeking sniper rifles and
they're not sharing.

The 1 Essence point is for the Smartlink and Recognition software. They could
recognize terrorists, but what if the terrorist had his face changed (I've
heard about the IRA pulling that before, as well as criminal organizations)? A
computer would be more apt to recognize subtle similarities than a human
brain. It would eb a public relations nightmare if innocent civilians or the
wrong target got geeked because they looked like what the shooter though was
the target. What if they accidently capped an influential person? There would
be Hell to pay, even if the Tir gummint passed it off as a terrorist gunman to
cover their mistake, they would be admitting that terrorist snipers could
pretty much kill whoever they wanted to without the goverment being able to do
a damn thing about it. Next thing you know, there's a public outcry because a
lot of bodies end up with 7.62mm holes in their skulls, and no 'terrorists'
are being caught, killed, brought to justice, or even seen.

It's all in the name of government CMA (Cover My Ass, for the TLA impared.
What's a TLA? Three Letter Acronym ;] ).

Mgkelly
Message no. 23
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:58:21 EDT
In a message dated 7/29/1998 9:20:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
lakashim@*******.COM writes:

>
> What is the point behind the Morph Seeking Weapons in Tir Na Nog? 1
> essence point for a sniper rifle with a smart link? The book also
> mentions something about computer interlink to recognize faces. But what
> good would this do? Couldn't joe average anti-terrorist assassin
> recognize a target or potential target just as well?
>
> The other thing is, in Celtic Double Cross they say the data about the
> rifle is worth 4 million nuyen. The data store has plans about a rifle
> and it's interface worth that much and it only recognizes terrorists? I
> must be missing something. And I don't think the reason the data is so
> valuable is because of the Terrorist profiles and ID's. That is
> mentioned in a different Data Store.
>
> So could someone explain this to me?
> Thanks for the help.

Nearly coughing up all of his soda here...

Okay, Morphseeker Technology is a -BIG- nasty in the SR Universe, and is one
of those things that the current DLoH is likely to remove from the game system
if he gets the chance.

Morphseeker is the effect of combing tactical computers, smartlink, DNA-
Recognition Sensor technology and a kick-butt sniper rifle all into one thing.

Imagine if you could turn / invert the Smartlink in your average cyberware.
Make it so it only shoots "when it matches <X> silhouette". Now combine
that
with incredible skill and patience of the user. Make it so that it can
penetrate (due to it's high technology level) most illusions spells and
possibly even recognize altered DNA pattersn due to Morphic Magic (like a
shapechange, only for human forms).

Now, imagine what would happen when the gun's system proclaims "99% target
accuracy, do you wish to fire?" Imagine putting all of your combat pool
behind your skill and having every single die in the roll come up a success.

I think you can get the idea.

-K (who had this conversation with someone in FASA years ago)
Message no. 24
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:03:20 -0500
>Okay, Morphseeker Technology is a -BIG- nasty in the SR Universe, and is
one
>of those things that the current DLoH is likely to remove from the game
system
>if he gets the chance.

DLoH? Does someone have a list of these things somewhere? I coulda sworn I
saw one somewhere, and it would sure save me from asking a lot of stupid
questions in future....
Message no. 25
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:06:18 +1200
Quoth Patrick Goodman (1803 30-7-98 NZT):

>>Okay, Morphseeker Technology is a -BIG- nasty in the SR Universe, and
is
>one
>>of those things that the current DLoH is likely to remove from the
game
>system
>>if he gets the chance.
>
>DLoH? Does someone have a list of these things somewhere? I coulda
sworn I
>saw one somewhere, and it would sure save me from asking a lot of
stupid
>questions in future....

DLoH = 'Dark Lord on High', FASA's Shadowrun line developer. At the
moment, this is the highly esteemed (and likely over-worked) Mike
Mulvihill. And the ShadowRN FAQ
(http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/srnintro.html) lists all the usual
acronyms, but it's off-line at the moment while Dvixen takes to it with
a spanner and a sledgehammer... :-)

Danyel Woods - 9604801@********.ac.nz
'No, I'm Chaos and he's Mayhem. We're a double act.'
Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:22:22 +0100
Patrick Goodman said on 1:03/30 Jul 98,...

> DLoH? Does someone have a list of these things somewhere? I coulda sworn I
> saw one somewhere, and it would sure save me from asking a lot of stupid
> questions in future....

It should be in the FAQ (don't tell me you don't know what that
stands for either :) in the list of common abbreviations.

DLOH stands for Dark Lord On High, and was the title used to
refer to Tom Dowd when he was Shadowrun line developer at
FASA. After he left it got applied to Mike Mulvihill, who now holds
that position. (I don't think Carl Sargent was ever really
recognized as the DLOH during his short time as line developer,
though.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: James dillane <lakashim@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:33:25 PDT
Herc: Regarding your response of :"you can set the gun to determine the
accuracy rating (usually set for 100%) and this determines the success
rating, without having to roll any dice at all." I don't think so.

The over 99% accuracy the book is talking about is the computers ability
to identify it's targets. Also there would be no point in have a rifle
with an adjustable accuracy rating. Even if you wanted to miss and scare
a target, you could just aim to miss. And I don't think that any item
that automatically hits for 16S damage is worth only 1 Essence point.
Hell, even tactical computers start at 3 or 4 and they only improve the
odds, not guarantee a hit.

But thanks for responding.

Any other ideas on what these things would do.

"Sipping from the Spring of Immortality is only the Beginning..." Psalm
of Ananda


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 28
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:07:46 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/98 6:34:14 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
lakashim@*******.COM writes:

> Herc: Regarding your response of :"you can set the gun to determine the
> accuracy rating (usually set for 100%) and this determines the success
> rating, without having to roll any dice at all." I don't think so.
>
> The over 99% accuracy the book is talking about is the computers ability
> to identify it's targets. Also there would be no point in have a rifle
> with an adjustable accuracy rating. Even if you wanted to miss and scare
> a target, you could just aim to miss. And I don't think that any item
> that automatically hits for 16S damage is worth only 1 Essence point.
> Hell, even tactical computers start at 3 or 4 and they only improve the
> odds, not guarantee a hit.

Then what else does it mean then?!?

According to the book it maximizes the sniper's shot so that the shot only
hits that person.

Does this then mean that in game mechanics terms that the morpseeker sniper
has target numbers of 2's to hit anything once the gun says "Shooting Solution
Acquired."

Admittedly the target number option is probably the correct one, but for
instilling FEAR and RESPECT and HUMILITY into pcs, K and I go with the 100%
hit with no dice rolling.

Some more nuyen on the topic.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 29
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:23:19 -0400
At 04:33 AM 7/30/98 PDT, you wrote:
>Herc: Regarding your response of :"you can set the gun to determine the
>accuracy rating (usually set for 100%) and this determines the success
>rating, without having to roll any dice at all." I don't think so.

I don't agree with that concept either.

I've always understood the entire purpose of the gun was to be able to make
absolutely positively sure you only shot (and presumably killed) the
intended target. No mistaken identity, no collateral damage (i.e. dead
civilians), just one dead target.

Now with a smartgun link, a sniper rifle and lots of skill (they're not
going to let amatuers use the gun!) you're practically assured of one shot
one kill anyway.

No, this thing (I think someone else mentioned this) is designed to see
through disguises and alterations and the like and remove any (or at least
nearly all) human emotion and doubt from the target selection process. The
human (or elf I guess) still has to pull the trigger, but the machine
decides *who* is going to be shot, based on the information it was given.

I've always questioned the One Essence point also, since it seems a bit
high and that much of the cyber could probably simply be built into the
gun, but hey, *I* didn't design it. I've never thought it was really that
bad-ass either, but it is somewhat impressive as a representation of the
tech level.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 30
From: "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)" <jeanpell@****.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:16:40 -0400
Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> once wrote,

(snipped)

>Then what else does it mean then?!?
>
>According to the book it maximizes the sniper's shot so that the shot only
>hits that person.
>
>Does this then mean that in game mechanics terms that the morpseeker sniper
>has target numbers of 2's to hit anything once the gun says "Shooting
Solution
>Acquired."
>
>Admittedly the target number option is probably the correct one, but for
>instilling FEAR and RESPECT and HUMILITY into pcs, K and I go with the 100%
>hit with no dice rolling.

No no no... Tir Na Nog explicitly states that the gun helps for pattern
recognition, not aiming, and will only fire on approved targets (that's a
side effect, I think). Otherwise, there's no help for aiming, except for
the smartgun link.

That's still a heck of an advantage. Case in point, Haze (My most humble
character) shot dead Paul J. Adam's character Lilith Lynch on the ShadowTK
Fiction list. Lilith wasn't dressed as usual (she used a look Haze didn't
know about), so Haze thought, at first that his target was not there. But,
his rifle analysed one of the figures, and unmasked Lilith, who was then
promptly killed.
It's not a full-fledged Morph-seeking weapon (I call it a Biometrics
Recognition System, and it can analyse and match a set pattern to a sniper's
target, but without the +2 Power level and the other goodies. It's as close
as I could get to a Morph-seeker without falling into muchkinism), but you
can see how handy it can come when faced with such a situation.

Remember, too, that the gun itself goes from 14S to 16S, probably from that
wicked pattern recognition system. And it's impossible to give a gun a 100%
chance of hitting a target... You never know what can happen (bird suddenly
passes by, gusts of wind, sudden movement from the target, yedda yedda
yedda).

And, between you and me, a sniper with decent skill, aiming, combat pool, a
called shot and Smartgun link lvl. 2, will rarely, if ever, miss his shot.
So I guess the point is moot.

Trinity
-------------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Dead Can Dance - "Aeon"

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" - M. Gandhi
Message no. 31
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:45:58 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-29 23:56:11 EDT, you write:

> Next thing you know, there's a public outcry because a
> lot of bodies end up with 7.62mm holes in their skulls, and no 'terrorists'
> are being caught, killed, brought to justice, or even seen.

If you look in history, the Mossad was bumping a terrorist group off left
and right, until they got caught because they hit a decoy. They got in huge
trouble (well as much as such an agency can get into) for hitting an innocent.
Message no. 32
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:04:14 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/98 3:20:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
jeanpell@****.QC.CA writes:

> >Does this then mean that in game mechanics terms that the morpseeker sniper
> >has target numbers of 2's to hit anything once the gun says "Shooting
> Solution
> >Acquired."
> >
> >Admittedly the target number option is probably the correct one, but for
> >instilling FEAR and RESPECT and HUMILITY into pcs, K and I go with the
100%
> >hit with no dice rolling.
>
> No no no... Tir Na Nog explicitly states that the gun helps for pattern
> recognition, not aiming, and will only fire on approved targets (that's a
> side effect, I think). Otherwise, there's no help for aiming, except for
> the smartgun link.

A simple thing may explain the target number of a 2 ... the gun is telling the
morph-sniper when he is able to shoot ... what this means is that the maximum
number of simple actions spent aiming have been maximized ... and considering
the skill of most morph-snipers is usually higher than a 10 ... the number of
simple actions spent aiming can be a lot.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 33
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:52:36 -0600
K confused me by saying:

>Morphseeker is the effect of combing tactical computers, smartlink, DNA-
>Recognition Sensor technology and a kick-butt sniper rifle all into one thing.
>

DNA-Recognition Sensor technology? Where did you get that from? I just
rechecked TTN and It didn't say anything about this. How would the gun be
obtaining the DNA to confirm the target?

>Imagine if you could turn / invert the Smartlink in your average cyberware.
>Make it so it only shoots "when it matches <X> silhouette". Now
combine that
>with incredible skill and patience of the user. Make it so that it can
>penetrate (due to it's high technology level) most illusions spells and

The software involved would see through any mana based illusion, but the
physical illusion spells would still be effective.

>possibly even recognize altered DNA pattersn due to Morphic Magic (like a
>shapechange, only for human forms).
>

Again please give a reference for this. It sounds _very_ unlikely without
physical sampleing.

Piatro
Message no. 34
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:19:32 -0600
Herc Wrote:


>
>According to the book it maximizes the sniper's shot so that the shot only
>hits that person.
>

No. The book says that it only fires at the preselected target. They go
on to say that, "the Reach Fuileach have an _unequalled_ record for clean
kills." Not perfect, as would be indicated by your assumption of 100%
targeting.

>Does this then mean that in game mechanics terms that the morpseeker sniper
>has target numbers of 2's to hit anything once the gun says "Shooting Solution
>Acquired."
>

TTN does not give any information on increased chance to hit with this
wapon, but the 1 essence required for the motor cortex connection indicates
an additional -1 TN.

>Admittedly the target number option is probably the correct one, but for
>instilling FEAR and RESPECT and HUMILITY into pcs, K and I go with the 100%
>hit with no dice rolling.
>

You could say the same thing about the chance of any significantly skilled
sniper, that the chance to hit is so low that you don't have to roll. The
really intimidating thing is the ability of this weapon system to see
through illusion and disguise. With enough of a database you could be
identified by body movements and size alone.

A Lone Star team with this type of equipment could identify possible
suspects (filmed from behind by a security camera?) in the course of an
investigation. It probably wouldn't be enough for a conviction, but it
would justify issuing warents.

This could be fun! (another evil GM grin)

Piatro
Message no. 35
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:19:20 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/98 6:26:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> (I don't think Carl Sargent was ever really
> recognized as the DLOH during his short time as line developer,
> though.)

When was he DLOH?

-Bandit
Message no. 36
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:05:07 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/1998 10:50:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
piatro@**********.COM writes:

> Again please give a reference for this. It sounds _very_ unlikely without
> physical sampleing.
>
> Piatro
>
Okay, how do you define "Physical Sampling?" I do have a reason for asking
that will stand up to defend my reasoning and explain my statements in the
previous posting.

-K
Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:15:00 +0100
Michael vanHulst said on 19:45/30 Jul 98,...

> If you look in history, the Mossad was bumping a terrorist group off left
> and right, until they got caught because they hit a decoy. They got in huge
> trouble (well as much as such an agency can get into) for hitting an innocent.

Agencies like that can also get in trouble for doing their job, just
ask the SAS about the IRA in Gibraltar...

Still, those morph-seeking weapons sound a bit over the top to
me, and not fitting into SR at all. I don't own the Tir na nOg
sourcebook so I can't read for myself what they are and do, but
the whole concept comes across as rather munchkinous to me
(and knowing who wrote that book, I'm not all that surprised
about it...).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's pretty scary.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 38
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:15:42 -0600
K wrote:

>In a message dated 7/30/1998 10:50:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>piatro@**********.COM writes:
>
>> Again please give a reference for this. It sounds _very_ unlikely without
>> physical sampleing.
>>
>> Piatro
>>
>Okay, how do you define "Physical Sampling?" I do have a reason for asking
>that will stand up to defend my reasoning and explain my statements in the
>previous posting.
>

"DNA-Recognition Sensor technology"

What are we looking at here? The microscopic code within cells has been
viewed IRL, but you are suggesting that this information could be viewed
and analised at long range. Even at a few feet it would be nearly
imposible to magnify an image enough to see inside the cells. When you
have zoomed on a target that small the most infinitesimal movement will
take it out of your field of vision. Even in shadowrun you'll need to use
a microscope (with a fixed sample) to view DNA information.

I think I have made myself clear. I will concider your "reasoning" when
you post it. Your argument may have some merit (yours usually do) but
there can't be a meaningful discussion untill you tell us what it is.

Piatro
Message no. 39
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:26:14 -0600
Gurth wrote:

>Still, those morph-seeking weapons sound a bit over the top to
>me, and not fitting into SR at all. I don't own the Tir na nOg
>sourcebook so I can't read for myself what they are and do, but
>the whole concept comes across as rather munchkinous to me
>(and knowing who wrote that book, I'm not all that surprised
>about it...).
>

As written in TNN they aren't _too_ bad. As a target recognition system it
is up to the GM to decide how much chance it has to reach the desired level
of target confidence. All it says is that you can decide how sure the
system has to be that it has the proper target before letting a sniper take
the shot. The attitude that it would always hit is not supported by the
text in TNN.

Piatro
Message no. 40
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:28:10 EDT
In a message dated 7/31/1998 7:17:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
piatro@**********.COM writes:

>
> "DNA-Recognition Sensor technology"
>
> What are we looking at here? The microscopic code within cells has been
> viewed IRL, but you are suggesting that this information could be viewed
> and analised at long range. Even at a few feet it would be nearly
> imposible to magnify an image enough to see inside the cells. When you
> have zoomed on a target that small the most infinitesimal movement will
> take it out of your field of vision. Even in shadowrun you'll need to use
> a microscope (with a fixed sample) to view DNA information.
>
> I think I have made myself clear. I will concider your "reasoning" when
> you post it. Your argument may have some merit (yours usually do) but
> there can't be a meaningful discussion untill you tell us what it is.

Okay, continuing then. DNA Recognition is a matter of chemistry as well as
body mechanics and admittedly, very expensive, scientific technology.
However, "Body Chemistry" and it's variable levels are measurable at a
distance. Exacting DNA codes, I do NOT know if SR tech could do that. But
measuring Body Chemistry at a distance is performable in this day and age.

Spectrographic Analysis can provide that range of information to date. Sure,
the sensors are fairly good size for this now, but not -that- large, and the
science could readily get smaller when combined with a "Chemical Analysis"
kit, much like those used in a lot of field studies kits now.

In the case of the Morphseeker Technology, IF the chemical spectography of a
given individual is known / patterned / mapped, a sighting mechanism with the
gun is easily possible.

My basis of discussion is from the fact that I have seen my own Image done in
this manner. I also know that my image was distinctly different from the 4
other people's that were done at the time in the labs at ASU several years
ago, as well as a fun project that was performed on Kitt Peak as well.

Extrapolations taken from that POV could be done readily within the field of
Fiction based upon current fact. Using different wavelengths of light would
perhaps render more information, or more detailed information, at the very
least. Ultraviolet reads differently with a spectographical analysis (cool
pictures, reminded me of the "Kirlian Plate Stuff").

Body Chemisty in most people -IS- similar, yes. But it also significantly
different in many people, that when combined with known Body IR Patterns,
could produce significant, usable, potential.

With regards to DNA, lets' not go quite as far as Electron Micrography, and
just go as far as Spectography for now. DNA is unique to everyone, and with
those facts in mind, -IF- (I'd make it physically larger, but then all fonts
wouldn't work in all mailers) a full-band analysis of the individual as taken
from the near-IR to the near-UV ends of the spectrum, would produce a
significant picture. One that is more than detailed enough to work as a "this
is the right person...that is not" situation.

As for accuracy with the Morphseekers.

Okay, let's say that the "100%" accuracy is only in identification. I'll buy
that. Fine, makes sense. Especially with regards to "miscellaneous events"
that take place (individual movement, birds in the way, etc.).

I will then point out in retrospect that the one point essence loss on the
cyberware POV is most likely from a transferrable dataconnection between the
Motor and Cerebral cortices of the mind that would also connect to "pattern
recognition" within the user. More so that the Smartlink.

Perhaps the gun can only recognize a signal from these types of implants, and
part of that is also security for the device(s) as well. Additionally, the
implant would have to very possibly be compatible (a suggestion here) with all
forms of Smartlink Interfaces that exist as well as the Morphseeker
Technology.

The one point of loss is also a likely bit of neurological override that would
get rid of stupid things like "body tremors" (minor vibrations the body has
when in stressful situations of different varieties) and "sensory blockout"
(where the individual fails to notice other problems like "birds in flight")
so as to adjust to the situation with even greater accuracy.

As for why this tech is more essence friendly that Tactical Computer....that
is easy. Morphseeker is a single target aquisition and recognition protocol,
while Tactical Computer is FAR more than that. It's a limited Skillset basis,
as well as a multi-target recognition system that even goes so far as to make
ratio adjustments in actions (response increases) to the user in some manner.
It tracks all targets by way of motion, distance, type (friendly, hostile,
neutral?), size (small, tiny, large, big and what-the-hell-is-that?) and quite
possibly even goes to the point of weapon/armor recognition (pistols, rifles
and DUCK NOW!, he's a walking a Tank!)

All of this is, to me, so easily understandable and explainable. Hopefully,
maybe, now you (the collective -You- in this case ;) can see a bit more as to
the game mechanic as well.

-K
Message no. 41
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:36:41 +0100
M. Sean Martinez said on 0:19/31 Jul 98,...

> > (I don't think Carl Sargent was ever really
> > recognized as the DLOH during his short time as line developer,
> > though.)
>
> When was he DLOH?

According to me, never :) As way I remember it, this is more or
less what happened: Carl Sargent was Line Developer for a few
months in 1994 (IIRC) after Tom Dowd quit, and before Mike
Mulvihill took over. He then decided he didn't want to work in the
game industry anymore, and quit before he was fully settled as
SR LD. Mike was only interim-LD until someone else could be
found; in the end FASA decided to make it permanent.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Money, tickets, passports! Money, tickets, passports!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:01:59 -0700
>Spectrographic Analysis can provide that range of information to date. Sure,
>the sensors are fairly good size for this now, but not -that- large, and the
>science could readily get smaller when combined with a "Chemical Analysis"
>kit, much like those used in a lot of field studies kits now.

Sure, spectrophotography can even tell you what type of amino acid it is,
etc. But it seems unlikely that it will ever be able to decode base
sequence pairs: the resolution isn't there. Also, where in the bullet are
they putting the spectrophotography with the chip to do the Fast Fourier
Transform on the incoming data?

>My basis of discussion is from the fact that I have seen my own Image done in
>this manner. I also know that my image was distinctly different from the 4
>other people's that were done at the time in the labs at ASU several years
>ago, as well as a fun project that was performed on Kitt Peak as well.

Sure, but can you put that technology into a bullet or on a rifle, in a
rugged form? I doubt it.

>Extrapolations taken from that POV could be done readily within the field of
>Fiction based upon current fact. Using different wavelengths of light would
>perhaps render more information, or more detailed information, at the very
>least. Ultraviolet reads differently with a spectographical analysis (cool
>pictures, reminded me of the "Kirlian Plate Stuff").

Ultraviolet light requires a higher powered emitter: can't do it on the
bullet. On the rifle it's going to be essentially a stepped down Klystron
or other pulse-power emitter. Not to mention the energy signature (UV does
ionize; just follow the track of ozone) and the nasty side effects from
having a soft radiation source next to your skull. Any "harder" radiation
exacerbates these problems.

>With regards to DNA, lets' not go quite as far as Electron Micrography, and
>just go as far as Spectography for now. DNA is unique to everyone, and with
>those facts in mind, -IF- (I'd make it physically larger, but then all fonts
>wouldn't work in all mailers) a full-band analysis of the individual as taken
>from the near-IR to the near-UV ends of the spectrum, would produce a
>significant picture. One that is more than detailed enough to work as a "this
>is the right person...that is not" situation.

Right. Write off the DNA analysis and this becomes possible, though never
100% accurate. Probably close. [You do have to consider environmental
factors, et. al]

>As for why this tech is more essence friendly that Tactical Computer....that
>is easy. Morphseeker is a single target aquisition and recognition protocol,
>while Tactical Computer is FAR more than that. It's a limited Skillset basis,
>as well as a multi-target recognition system that even goes so far as to make
>ratio adjustments in actions (response increases) to the user in some manner.
>It tracks all targets by way of motion, distance, type (friendly, hostile,
>neutral?), size (small, tiny, large, big and what-the-hell-is-that?) and quite
>possibly even goes to the point of weapon/armor recognition (pistols, rifles
>and DUCK NOW!, he's a walking a Tank!)

I would reserve those options to a full Tactical computer. I don't think
the Morphseeker would have the database or sensors sufficient to
distinguish this. It's purpose built for one target. Tactical computers are
for threat analysis, situational awareness, detection and classification,
and prediction.

BTW, now that they have TAPS autosoft for targetting should be possible to
do something similar with skillwires. Oh, and a Sentinel Drone equipped
with a Sentry gun and TAPS autosoft and decent sensors can roll 18 dice or
so, plus Tactical computer lockon dice (about 8 of those per customer).
That's of course, not counting the Rigger's combat pool or IVIS pool. My
players are probably dreading the run against the drone guarded base ... ;-)

>All of this is, to me, so easily understandable and explainable. Hopefully,
>maybe, now you (the collective -You- in this case ;) can see a bit more as to
>the game mechanic as well.

I'd still probably just use a tactical computer since it's more flexible,
powerful, and (via BattleTac) smarter. But if those funny elves want it ...

>-K


************************
* Adam Getchell
* Human Resources Information Systems
* acgetchell@*******.edu
* http://hr.ucdavis.edu/
* (530)752-1584 FAX (530)752-1289
***********************
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 43
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:53:32 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-31 08:23:11 EDT, you write:

> Still, those morph-seeking weapons sound a bit over the top to
> >me, and not fitting into SR at all. I don't own the Tir na nOg
> >sourcebook so I can't read for myself what they are and do, but
> >the whole concept comes across as rather munchkinous to me
> >(and knowing who wrote that book, I'm not all that surprised
> >about it...).
> >
>
> As written in TNN they aren't _too_ bad. As a target recognition system it
> is up to the GM to decide how much chance it has to reach the desired level
> of target confidence. All it says is that you can decide how sure the
> system has to be that it has the proper target before letting a sniper take
> the shot. The attitude that it would always hit is not supported by the
> text in TNN.
>
And, since no one mentioned it yet, let me make it clear that the rifle is
intended as GM only. It has explosives tied to it, taking out the rifle and
the surrounding area when the guy flatlines (or something very close to that)
Of course the idea of having a rifle SO accurate that it almost never takes
out a good guy, then it blows up when the sniper dies seems kinda strange to
me.
Message no. 44
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:24:53 -0600
K wrote:

>Spectrographic Analysis can provide that range of information to date. Sure,
>the sensors are fairly good size for this now, but not -that- large, and the
>science could readily get smaller when combined with a "Chemical Analysis"
>kit, much like those used in a lot of field studies kits now.

As I recall a spectromiter measures the exact wavelengths of light that an
object reflects. In order to determine this exactly you need to know
exactly how much light of each wavelenth is striking the object. In a lab
setting this isn't too tough. The light source has been analyzed (and
probably suplimented) to provide the needed spectrum of light. In the
field this would be nearly imposible.

>My basis of discussion is from the fact that I have seen my own Image done in
>this manner. I also know that my image was distinctly different from the 4
>other people's that were done at the time in the labs at ASU several years
>ago, as well as a fun project that was performed on Kitt Peak as well.

What type of environmental light was used for this scan? For the purpose
of a covert long distance identification system, an active sensor would be
impractical. Imagine a submarine banging away with it's active sonar in
order to identify the distinguishing marks on the hulls of passing ships.
This is why _passive_ sensors are used.

<snip a bit>

>Perhaps the gun can only recognize a signal from these types of implants, and
>part of that is also security for the device(s) as well. Additionally, the
>implant would have to very possibly be compatible (a suggestion here) with all
>forms of Smartlink Interfaces that exist as well as the Morphseeker
>Technology.

Yes, it _says_ that a standard smatrlink is included in the cyberware
element of this system. It also says that the guns are individually built
for each sniper and will blow up if anyone else tries to use them. I added
the TN bonus on my own. :)


<snip where you are explaining why you agree with an increase in the chance
to hit and meaningless comparison to Tactical Computer>

Piatro
Message no. 45
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:32:25 -0600
Adam Getchell wrote:

<snip Spectrophotography arguments>

<snip rehash of exactly the same points about Tactical Computer>

>BTW, now that they have TAPS autosoft for targetting should be possible to
>do something similar with skillwires. Oh, and a Sentinel Drone equipped
>with a Sentry gun and TAPS autosoft and decent sensors can roll 18 dice or
>so, plus Tactical computer lockon dice (about 8 of those per customer).
>That's of course, not counting the Rigger's combat pool or IVIS pool. My
>players are probably dreading the run against the drone guarded base ... ;-)
>

You lost me here. What is TAPS?

Piatro
Message no. 46
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:06:04 -0600
K wrote:

>> Right. Write off the DNA analysis and this becomes possible, though never
>> 100% accurate. Probably close. [You do have to consider environmental
>> factors, et. al]
>
>Actually, all of the environmental factors are being considered here. Also,
>"Environmental Factors" can literally be programmed into an
"Information
>Titration Grid", and thus have their more noticeable side effects removed from
>the factors of the gun. Stuff like wind, air temp, pressure (barometric or
>otherwise), static ionization rates, and the like can all readily be built
>into a Sniper System. ESPECIALLY considering cybertechnology as well as
>general computer micronization that would run parallel to cybertech
>developments and them implaced within the Sniper Rifle itself.
>

I still disagree with the idea of this type of system as being that
portable, but lets move on to a more important matter. How is the sniper
system going to get this Spectrographic/thermographic/electromagnetic
profile to make a positive ID? The subject would have to have been viewed
with the same type of sensors as are built into this system. Without
knowing what profile to look for a system with these advanced capabilities
is no better than a standard scope.

For this reason a strictly visual system is the most likely. With enough
flat images of the subject (well... target actually) a 3d model can be
easily constructed. Thats enough. The stuff about not getting confused by
a twin was in the shadow commentary. Not a very reliable source IMO.

Piatro
Message no. 47
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 02:36:55 EDT
In a message dated 8/3/1998 10:28:04 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
piatro@**********.COM writes:
> As I recall a spectromiter measures the exact wavelengths of light that an
> object reflects. In order to determine this exactly you need to know
> exactly how much light of each wavelenth is striking the object. In a lab
> setting this isn't too tough. The light source has been analyzed (and
> probably suplimented) to provide the needed spectrum of light. In the
> field this would be nearly imposible.

Not at all, actually. Luminens Determination hardware exists currently, and
is NOT very large at all. It's in most hand-held cameras today, and more
advanced variations will no doubt exist in the future-possible of SR. Also,
this is being done on the astronomical field today, and they don't know every
band that is out there, instead placing comparisons to the known wavelengths.

(Paolo, help me on this, I know I am faltering in the information field)

> >My basis of discussion is from the fact that I have seen my own Image done
> in
> >this manner. I also know that my image was distinctly different from the
4
> >other people's that were done at the time in the labs at ASU several years
> >ago, as well as a fun project that was performed on Kitt Peak as well.
>
> What type of environmental light was used for this scan? For the purpose
> of a covert long distance identification system, an active sensor would be
> impractical. Imagine a submarine banging away with it's active sonar in
> order to identify the distinguishing marks on the hulls of passing ships.
> This is why _passive_ sensors are used.

Standard sunlight, allowed in from a window and bounced down the hallway with
a mirror on a door.

That -IS- what happened, I don't know all the other details, as I didn't pay
-that- much attention at the time.

-K
Message no. 48
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 02:38:28 EDT
In a message dated 8/3/1998 10:29:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
piatro@**********.COM writes:

> >BTW, now that they have TAPS autosoft for targetting should be possible to
> >do something similar with skillwires. Oh, and a Sentinel Drone equipped
> >with a Sentry gun and TAPS autosoft and decent sensors can roll 18 dice or
> >so, plus Tactical computer lockon dice (about 8 of those per customer).
> >That's of course, not counting the Rigger's combat pool or IVIS pool. My
> >players are probably dreading the run against the drone guarded base ...
;-)
>
> >
>
> You lost me here. What is TAPS?
>
Target Aquisition Program Software (IIRC). It's a collection of various
things that enable some assistance to targetting features. I would almost
think of it as "SOTA Oriented Upgrades" to a given tactical simulator.
Perhaps options not normally programmed into such devices.

It's a thing, and isn't explain (IMO) in nearly enough detail.

-K
Message no. 49
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 02:43:53 EDT
In a message dated 8/3/1998 11:17:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
piatro@**********.COM writes:

> I still disagree with the idea of this type of system as being that
> portable, but lets move on to a more important matter. How is the sniper
> system going to get this Spectrographic/thermographic/electromagnetic
> profile to make a positive ID? The subject would have to have been viewed
> with the same type of sensors as are built into this system. Without
> knowing what profile to look for a system with these advanced capabilities
> is no better than a standard scope.

I realize that much, that is part of the programming that would have to be
afforded to the user of the rifle at the time of his mission determination.
It's the -one- part of the guns' usage that I admit I do NOT have a real solid
idea on how to incorporate.

As for portability, I guess a question arises to me. Just what is in the way
of this for you to believe/perceive? How small is small to you? This is
cybertechnology that is being tossed into the fray, a topic that sadly, none
of us can truly go into with real expertise. Hypothesize, Theorize, Scam,
Disillusion, etcetera, ad nauseum, sure. But say with true knowledge, not
possible.

It's kind of like that *other* thread about Suncell. The knowledge that is
being shared is real, but is also incomplete. Time I would say to go web
browsing and see what can -really- be found out there today, and then make an
extrapolation about tomorrow's yet unknown...

> For this reason a strictly visual system is the most likely. With enough
> flat images of the subject (well... target actually) a 3d model can be
> easily constructed. Thats enough. The stuff about not getting confused by
> a twin was in the shadow commentary. Not a very reliable source IMO.

That part about the twin I would have to rereard.

-K
Message no. 50
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Morph Seeking Weapons
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:26:01 -0700
>Adam Getchell wrote:
>You lost me here. What is TAPS?

It's in Rigger 2. It's basically a software program run by a drone that
improves its gunnery skill above its pilot rating. I don't recall the
acronym.

Considering the work done by the British in developing an automated
"anti-sniper system" for their APCs, it's definately feasible.

>Piatro

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Morph Seeking Weapons, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!