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Message no. 1
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:50:42 +0000
At 10:28 PM 26/2/2003, Paul wrote:
>>>Not a useful mortar load...
>>
>>Who said aything about buck in a mortar. Side out of a mortar i'd use WP
>
>Not if you're assaulting through immediately you won't.

I realise that WP is White Phosphorous, and I realise that the military
have a reason, a specific tactical niche for each type of load.
My first thoughts for a mortar round however are either High Explosive or
Smoke, Star rounds (if that's the right term for a "parachute flare" type
round) come next but a good chunk behind.
So, I can understand why you wouldn't assault through White Phos (Ouchie!!)
but what are the basic tactical reasons for using the various "basic"
shells, what are the benefits of White Phos other than simple collateral
damage (sorry, materiel denial) and area denial for example?

Oh, and another quick question, "Side out"? what does that mean?


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 2
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:01:24 -0700
At 10:50 PM 2/26/2003 +0000, Lone Eagle wrote:
>At 10:28 PM 26/2/2003, Paul wrote:
>>>>Not a useful mortar load...
>>>
>>>Who said aything about buck in a mortar. Side out of a mortar i'd use WP
>>
>>Not if you're assaulting through immediately you won't.
>
>I realise that WP is White Phosphorous, and I realise that the military
>have a reason, a specific tactical niche for each type of load.
>My first thoughts for a mortar round however are either High Explosive or
>Smoke, Star rounds (if that's the right term for a "parachute flare" type
>round) come next but a good chunk behind.
>So, I can understand why you wouldn't assault through White Phos
>(Ouchie!!) but what are the basic tactical reasons for using the various
>"basic" shells, what are the benefits of White Phos other than simple
>collateral damage (sorry, materiel denial) and area denial for example?
>
>Oh, and another quick question, "Side out"? what does that mean?

And while we're at it, why would anyone want to use a mortar on a Shadowrun?

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 3
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 23:37:18 +0000
At 11:01 PM 26/2/2003, Graht wrote:
>And while we're at it, why would anyone want to use a mortar on a Shadowrun?

Distraction, covering fire for a hose-up...

Maybe a much better way to graffiti a corp compound, load it with splash
filled with paint.

There's also the possibility of military oriented campaigns, the desert
wars and all sorts of other things.

The biggest reason though is that it's an ace up your sleeve.

Granted they're primarily going to feature in the higher powered games, if
you start out as a member of a twelve member street gang whose most
powerful weapon has always been their enforcer's Berretta 101-T and
maintain that level then a mortar is unlikely to feature.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 4
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Peterson)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:47:29 -0700
From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle@********.co.uk>

> >Not if you're assaulting through immediately you won't.

What do you consider immdiately, and are we talking ground trops or mech?
>
> I realise that WP is White Phosphorous, and I realise that the military
> have a reason, a specific tactical niche for each type of load.
> My first thoughts for a mortar round however are either High Explosive or
> Smoke, Star rounds (if that's the right term for a "parachute flare" type
> round) come next but a good chunk behind.

Illumination, or 'lume'

> what are the benefits of White Phos other than simple collateral
> damage (sorry, materiel denial) and area denial for example?

White Phos primary benifit is obscuring smoke and thermal cover against
thermal sights. It is technicaly ILLEGAL to use WP agaisnt troops.

> Oh, and another quick question, "Side out"? what does that mean?

Was a miss type, should have been 'sides out' or in other words Besides out
of.

Scott
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:59:26 +0100
According to Lone Eagle, on Wednesday 26 February 2003 23:50 the word on
the street was...

> I realise that WP is White Phosphorous, and I realise that the military
> have a reason, a specific tactical niche for each type of load.
> My first thoughts for a mortar round however are either High Explosive
> or Smoke, Star rounds (if that's the right term for a "parachute flare"
> type round) come next but a good chunk behind.

"Illumination round" is the usual name.

> So, I can understand why you wouldn't assault through White Phos
> (Ouchie!!) but what are the basic tactical reasons for using the various
> "basic" shells, what are the benefits of White Phos other than simple
> collateral damage (sorry, materiel denial) and area denial for example?

The smoke is much thicker than of a regular smoke round, and it creates an
"instant" smoke screen, whereas many smoke rounds "bleed" smoke, and
so
take a lot longer to create a decent smokescreen (not to mention do it
downwind of the round only -- though that's easily solved by dropping one
upwind of where you need the smokescreen).

> Oh, and another quick question, "Side out"? what does that mean?

I think Scott meant "Besides, out of a mortar I'd fire ..."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:01:03 +0100
According to Graht, on Thursday 27 February 2003 00:01 the word on the
street was...

> And while we're at it, why would anyone want to use a mortar on a
> Shadowrun?

You could use it for illumination, or to make life difficult for
heavily-armed pursuers after you've hit a facility out in the middle of
nowhere. I wouldn't want to use one in Seattle, though -- I have this
feeling every law enforcement trooper around will shoot on sight.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:27:51 +0100
On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:01:03 +0100, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> You could use it for illumination, or to make life difficult for heavily-
> armed pursuers after you've hit a facility out in the middle of nowhere.
> I wouldn't want to use one in Seattle, though -- I have this feeling
> every law enforcement trooper around will shoot on sight.
>

And Lone Star, too.

That is, as soon as these boys recognized a mortar as a weapon...

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 8
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:59:24 +1100
> > You could use it for illumination, or to make life difficult for
heavily-
> > armed pursuers after you've hit a facility out in the middle of nowhere.
> > I wouldn't want to use one in Seattle, though -- I have this feeling
> > every law enforcement trooper around will shoot on sight.
> >
>
> And Lone Star, too.
>
> That is, as soon as these boys recognized a mortar as a weapon...

In my game, anything that goes bang/thwump/phutt/pop/etc... then evokes an
"earth shattering ka-boom"(tm) at a remote location qualifies as a weapon -
and one which is rather easy to determine once you figure it isnt a bomb but
a remotely delivered payload of exothermic death. If you hear the kaboom and
you can also find the weapon causing it, LS are going to come knocking
on/through your door quite quickly... and don't discount those pesky
neighbours or passers-by with those keychain PANICBUTTON systems.

GreyWolf
-- Not so Wolf, So not Grey. More of a Red Fox, but that name was taken....
Message no. 9
From: flakjacket@***********.com (flakjacket@***********.com)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:27:31 +0000 (GMT)
Graht wrote:

> And while we're at it, why would anyone want to use a mortar on a Shadowrun?

Depends. I've used on in the past for a hit. Rig up a mortar in the back of a truck with
enough recoil compensation and a hole cut in the roof. Then we rigged up a kind of clamp
that held a shell at the top of the tube that'd drop it in on radio command.

Mr. Corporate Suit is being driven in his amroured limo along the street. Paint the
vehicle with a cyber laser designator in your eye and press the remote that drops the
shell. Seeker shell comes flying over and ruins Mr. Corporators day. Then simply fade away
in the confusion.

Granted that's a bit extreme but it was the only way to get him. It meant abandoning the
equipment- no big deal though. The van was stolen and the dropper made up from Radio Shack
parts.

Flak
Message no. 10
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 17:44:55 +0000
In article <5.1.1.6.0.20030226223810.027948e0@www.wyrmtalk.co.uk>;, Lone
Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk> writes
>My first thoughts for a mortar round however are either High Explosive
>or Smoke, Star rounds (if that's the right term for a "parachute flare"
>type round) come next but a good chunk behind.
>So, I can understand why you wouldn't assault through White Phos
>(Ouchie!!) but what are the basic tactical reasons for using the
>various "basic" shells,

High Explosive - kills people who don't get their heads down quickly.
Pins an enemy force in place (much more likely to be wounded if you're
standing up to run, than if you're lying flat) and may inflict some
casualties.

Smoke - Obscures vision, and it's hard to hit what you can't see. Used
to reduce the effectiveness of enemy fire, especially in the later
stages of the assault. Also good to screen off enemy flanking positions
and prevent them providing mutual support.

Illuminant: Turns night into day (or at least, a bit less dark).
Offensively, lets you see where you're going and eases movement and
fire: defensively, lights up the night so you can shoot at the attackers
better. Use of illum can be two-edged (as can smoke) but it's often very
handy.

>what are the benefits of White Phos other than simple collateral damage
>(sorry, materiel denial) and area denial for example?

It produces a very fast, dense smoke screen that's opaque to thermal
imagers as well as to visual wavelengths. It also has useful incendiary
side-effects.

Disadvantages are those incendiary side-effects, which limit how close
you can use WP compared to HC smoke; plus while the smoke appears
faster, it disappears more quickly too, particularly because the thermal
currents of the burning phosphorous carry the smoke upwards instead of
along the ground ("pillaring"). Also, WP is semi-liquid, complicating
shell stowage and handling.

Red phosphorous is also often used as an obscurant, with somewhat less
of an incendiary effect (still not something to stand close to, but it
doesn't spontaneously combust) and greater stability.

>Oh, and another quick question, "Side out"? what does that mean?

I think he meant "besides".

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:12:53 +0100
According to flakjacket@***********.com, on Thursday 27 February 2003 18:27
the word on the street was...

> Depends. I've used on in the past for a hit. Rig up a mortar in the back
> of a truck with enough recoil compensation and a hole cut in the roof.
> Then we rigged up a kind of clamp that held a shell at the top of the
> tube that'd drop it in on radio command.

You could just have gotten yourself a trigger-fired mortar instead :)

> Mr. Corporate Suit is being driven in his amroured limo along the
> street. Paint the vehicle with a cyber laser designator in your eye and
> press the remote that drops the shell. Seeker shell comes flying over
> and ruins Mr. Corporators day. Then simply fade away in the confusion.

If the mortar + round + designator is cheaper and/or easier to get than a
rocket launcher, this is definitely a possibility. It has the added bonus
of being able to fire it from out of LOS, making you less conspicuous and
also less of a suspect.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:14:56 +0100
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Thursday 27 February 2003 13:27 the word
on the street was...

> > every law enforcement trooper around will shoot on sight.
>
> And Lone Star, too.

Lone Star is not law enforcement? (Or were you making a joke but forgot the
smiley? :)

> That is, as soon as these boys recognized a mortar as a weapon...

The tube (barrel) might not be too easy to recognize as a weapon, but I
think the bipod and base plate would attract some attention, never mind
the sight, never mind the complete weapon when it's set up.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: flakjacket@***********.com (flakjacket@***********.com)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:20:37 +0000 (GMT)
Gurth wrote:

> If the mortar round designator is cheaper and/or easier to get than a
> rocket launcher, this is definitely a possibility. It has the added bonus
> of being able to fire it from out of LOS, making you less conspicuous and
> also less of a suspect.

Well, yeah. It's slightly less suspect than hanging around on the corner with a MAW
waiting for him. ;)

That and the fact it wasn't really a true mortar- just a machined tube to work. We kind of
'ran accross' and 'liberated' a couple seeker shells a while back so it was a case of two
birds and a limo with one stone.
Message no. 14
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:51:40 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Graht
Sent: 2003-February-26 18:01
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)

At 10:50 PM 2/26/2003 +0000, Lone Eagle wrote:
>At 10:28 PM 26/2/2003, Paul wrote:
>>>>Not a useful mortar load...
>>>
>>>Who said aything about buck in a mortar. Side out of a mortar i'd
use WP
>>
>>Not if you're assaulting through immediately you won't.
>
>I realise that WP is White Phosphorous, and I realise that the military

>have a reason, a specific tactical niche for each type of load.
>My first thoughts for a mortar round however are either High Explosive
or
>Smoke, Star rounds (if that's the right term for a "parachute flare"
type
>round) come next but a good chunk behind.
>So, I can understand why you wouldn't assault through White Phos
>(Ouchie!!) but what are the basic tactical reasons for using the
various
>"basic" shells, what are the benefits of White Phos other than simple
>collateral damage (sorry, materiel denial) and area denial for example?
>
>Oh, and another quick question, "Side out"? what does that mean?

And while we're at it, why would anyone want to use a mortar on a
Shadowrun?
---------------------------------------------
To lay down a smokescreen while making a getaway in an experimental Lone
Star vehicle from a Lone Star proving ground...

That was the one and only time I've seen a mortar used by my players
(though they still have the tube, I think their ammo consists of 2 smoke
rounds. I'll be darned if I can remember where they got the damn thing,
though. Probably from a Metroplex Guard armory.
Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:54:10 +0100
According to flakjacket@***********.com, on Friday 28 February 2003 00:20
the word on the street was...

> Well, yeah. It's slightly less suspect than hanging around on the
> corner with a MAW waiting for him. ;)

My point exactly. There are some problems I can think of, though, one being
premature detonation due to hitting a drone on the way to the target --
there are plenty of drones over any SR city, for all kinds of purposes,
and I can easily see a GM assigning "cover" modifiers to mortar fire
because of them. Fail to hit due to that modifier, and the round goes BOOM
somewhere up in the air...

Another problem is that, with all those drones, what are the chances of one
(or more) of them seeing the round coming? That would probably allow its
owner to plot the point from which the mortar is being fired, making you
just as obvious as when you're waiting around the corner with a missile
launcher.

> That and the fact it wasn't really a true mortar- just a machined tube
> to work.

Real mortars (except rifled ones) aren't really all that much more than
that, anyway.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 07:26:31 +0100
First: Sorry for the delay, I am kinda busy right now. *sigh*

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:14:56 +0100, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Thursday 27 February 2003 13:27 the
> word on the street was...
>
>> > every law enforcement trooper around will shoot on sight.
>>
>> And Lone Star, too.
>
> Lone Star is not law enforcement? (Or were you making a joke but forgot
> the smiley? :)

The last. I thought you guys here are smart 'nuff to play ShadowRun, so you
are smart 'nuff to get a joke.

>> That is, as soon as these boys recognized a mortar as a weapon...
>
> The tube (barrel) might not be too easy to recognize as a weapon, but I
> think the bipod and base plate would attract some attention, never mind
> the sight, never mind the complete weapon when it's set up.

Unless you pick it apart.

In howmany suitcases are sniper rifles hidden?
You can do that (on a larger scale) witha mortar.
It is not overly complex (soldiers have to use it in the heat of battle,
unless we speak
of the big ones: Then there's the heat of a superior officer :-)
You can take it apart into: Bipod, barrel, sights, baseplate.
Of course it takes time to assamble that thing.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 17
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:01:58 +0100
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Monday 03 March 2003 07:26 the word on
the street was...

> > Lone Star is not law enforcement? (Or were you making a joke but
> > forgot the smiley? :)
>
> The last. I thought you guys here are smart 'nuff to play ShadowRun, so
> you are smart 'nuff to get a joke.

We are (I hope :) but the thing about e-mail is that we can't get the tone
of voice you'd have _said_ that in, if we'd had this conversation
face-to-face. Thus, include a smiley even if you think the joke is
obvious. You'd be amazed at how many people have felt insulted due to
similar comments made without smileys...

> In howmany suitcases are sniper rifles hidden?

One, usually.

> You can do that (on a larger scale) witha mortar.
> It is not overly complex (soldiers have to use it in the heat of battle,
> unless we speak
> of the big ones: Then there's the heat of a superior officer :-)
> You can take it apart into: Bipod, barrel, sights, baseplate.
> Of course it takes time to assamble that thing.

A few minutes, maximum, if you've got a fairly large mortar. Too long to
make use of in an SR firefight, but short enough that you easily have
enough time to set it up if you're the one who will be starting the
firefight.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:59:57 +0100
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:01:58 +0100, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> We are (I hope :) but the thing about e-mail is that we can't get the
> tone of voice you'd have _said_ that in, if we'd had this conversation
> face-to-face. Thus, include a smiley even if you think the joke is
> obvious. You'd be amazed at how many people have felt insulted due to
> similar comments made without smileys...

Well, I could be insulted about THAT comment, but I know that you don't
know what I know.

>> In howmany suitcases are sniper rifles hidden?
>
> One, usually.

Right, But that wasn't the point I wanted to make.
Let me re-phrase that:
In how many suitcases that you see, could a sniper rifle be?
All, none, a few?
You don't know, because it is hidden.


> A few minutes, maximum, if you've got a fairly large mortar. Too long to
> make use of in an SR firefight, but short enough that you easily have
> enough time to set it up if you're the one who will be starting the
> firefight.

Well, if you think about the firepower you expect if you bring a motar,
you wan to be the one starting the firefight.

I mean, a mortar isn't exactly a field weapon, but a supporting weapon.

And if it is mounted on a drone it is mobile, too. (To get not too far OT).

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:21:29 +0100
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Tuesday 04 March 2003 16:59 the word on
the street was...

> >> In howmany suitcases are sniper rifles hidden?
> >
> > One, usually.
>
> Right, But that wasn't the point I wanted to make.
> Let me re-phrase that:
> In how many suitcases that you see, could a sniper rifle be?
> All, none, a few?
> You don't know, because it is hidden.

Ah, yes, I now see what you mean. (The problem here being not a lack of
smileys, but of using German (or Dutch, for that matter) style of
sentence-building that makes it mean something slightly different in
English :)

> Well, if you think about the firepower you expect if you bring a motar,
> you wan to be the one starting the firefight.

Quite true :) Very few people carry a mortar around "in case I get into a
firefight"...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 20
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Peterson)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:45:01 -0700
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

> Well, if you think about the firepower you expect if you bring a motar,
> you wan to be the one starting the firefight.

Quite true :) Very few people carry a mortar around "in case I get into a
firefight"...

I beg to differ. A 60mm mortar in the right hands in a trigger fire mode
can be much more responsive, deadlier and all around useful than say a 40 mm
grenade launcher.

Scott
Message no. 21
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:33:49 +0000
In article <oprlf36hsspxdzb4@****.web.de>, Phillip Gawlowski
<cmd_jackryan@***.de> writes
>In howmany suitcases are sniper rifles hidden?
>You can do that (on a larger scale) witha mortar.

One suitcase will hold a 51mm mortar and a dozen or two rounds, and it's
usable in _seconds_ (and effective at urban ranges).

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 22
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 00:50:23 +0100
PJA> In article <oprlf36hsspxdzb4@****.web.de>, Phillip Gawlowski
PJA> <cmd_jackryan@***.de> writes
>>In howmany suitcases are sniper rifles hidden?
>>You can do that (on a larger scale) witha mortar.

PJA> One suitcase will hold a 51mm mortar and a dozen or two rounds, and it's
PJA> usable in _seconds_ (and effective at urban ranges).

Seconds will be too late in most cases where you are not the one
starting the fight ;) and I would not really consider mortar in the
Shadowrunners line of work for the same reasons MGs and Tanks are not
common equipment. They are millitary and nothing else in Nature and
will bring the Star at your tail 'cause they will fear you will use
that weapon against them someday or you do to much collateral damage.
And ofcourse a mortar is not really silent... ;)
Message no. 23
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:56:40 -0800
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:33:49 +0000
"Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <oprlf36hsspxdzb4@****.web.de>, Phillip Gawlowski
> <cmd_jackryan@***.de> writes
> >In howmany suitcases are sniper rifles hidden?
> >You can do that (on a larger scale) witha mortar.
>
> One suitcase will hold a 51mm mortar and a dozen or two rounds, and it's
> usable in _seconds_ (and effective at urban ranges).
>
> --
> Paul J. Adam

OK, I'll admit I've only had experience with US 81mm mortars, but I still
don't understand how you could get 'usable' fire support from a mortar from
inside a suitcase 'in seconds'. Could you please connect the dots?
--Anders
Message no. 24
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 00:01:02 +0000
In article <11350112738.20030305005023@******.net>, Hexren
<me@******.net> writes
>PJA> In article <oprlf36hsspxdzb4@****.web.de>, Phillip Gawlowski
>PJA> <cmd_jackryan@***.de> writes
>PJA> One suitcase will hold a 51mm mortar and a dozen or two rounds, and it's
>PJA> usable in _seconds_ (and effective at urban ranges).
>
>Seconds will be too late in most cases where you are not the one
>starting the fight ;)

PP&PPPPP!

(Prior Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance)

>and I would not really consider mortar in the
>Shadowrunners line of work for the same reasons MGs and Tanks are not
>common equipment.

MGs and mortars are _excellent_ Shadowrunner weapons for covering an
extraction under fire. If you don't need them, hold fire and nobody
knows they were there. If you _do_ need them... better to be wanted
felons than arrested prisoners.

>They are millitary and nothing else in Nature and
>will bring the Star at your tail 'cause they will fear you will use
>that weapon against them someday or you do to much collateral damage.
>And ofcourse a mortar is not really silent... ;)

I was unconventional in that I argued against "silent" in all cases.

If you can get in, get your target and be out before the police and
security arrive and follow you, or while they're falling back and
screaming for backup because they can't handle what you're dealing
out... that's almost as good as being unnoticed for many jobs, and much
better than being trapped inside a high-security complex with hordes of
cops and QRF swarming down onto you.



--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 25
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 00:14:43 +0000
In article <web-40657315@**********.com>, Anders Swenson
<anders@**********.com> writes
>On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:33:49 +0000
> "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> One suitcase will hold a 51mm mortar and a dozen or two rounds, and it's
>> usable in _seconds_ (and effective at urban ranges).
>>
>> --
>> Paul J. Adam
>OK, I'll admit I've only had experience with US 81mm mortars, but I still
>don't understand how you could get 'usable' fire support from a mortar from
>inside a suitcase 'in seconds'. Could you please connect the dots?

It's handheld and carried by one man: unzip the suitcase, brace it on
the ground, line up on target, estimate range and drop the first round
down the barrel.

_Much_ faster in and out of action than 60mm and 81mm mortars that need
baseplates bedding down (81s are battalion assets for us) - though
throwing less payload.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 26
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:59:07 +0100
According to Scott Peterson, on Tuesday 04 March 2003 19:45 the word on the
street was...

> > Quite true :) Very few people carry a mortar around "in case I get into
> > a firefight"...
>
> I beg to differ. A 60mm mortar in the right hands in a trigger fire
> mode can be much more responsive, deadlier and all around useful than
> say a 40 mm grenade launcher.

So you're saying your shadowrunners typically walk around with grenade
launchers or mortars, for when they get into a firefight with some street
punks who make the mistake of trying to rob them?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 23:03:46 +1100
Gurth writes:

> So you're saying your shadowrunners typically walk around with
> grenade launchers or mortars, for when they get into a firefight with
> some street punks who make the mistake of trying to rob them?

With the concealability of an MGL-6, why wouldn't they? Plenty of the
runners in my games pack MGL-6's like they pack heavy pistols...

--
Damion Milliken E-Mail: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
ICQ: 177734389 | MSN: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au | AIM/Y!: DamionMilliken
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
Message no. 28
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:08:29 +0100
On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:59:07 +0100, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

<cutting through text-based desert>

> So you're saying your shadowrunners typically walk around with grenade
> launchers or mortars, for when they get into a firefight with some street
> punks who make the mistake of trying to rob them?

Oh, to hell with da punks.

My character always carry a flare gun with'em, sometimes smart-ed.

Imagine da face of da punk, if it gets a flare into it's breast.
Muahahahaha.

It's good to be evil :-)

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 29
From: aestus_preliator@*****.com (Michael Johnson)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 05:52:00 -0800 (PST)
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Isn't that a little munchkin, if you don't mind my saying so? Sure they might be
concealable, but a mortar's a mortar, and to use it at all in a busy urban setting would
be just a little noticeable. Lone Star (and any other corp for that matter) would not take
kindly to turning downtown Seattle into 1980's-era Beirut. After a couple of mortar-using
firefights, they'd be onto you.
Aestus Preliator
Damion Milliken <DamionMilliken@*****.com.au> wrote:

>With the concealability of an MGL-6, why wouldn't they? Plenty of the
>runners in my games pack MGL-6's like they pack heavy pistols...




---------------------------------
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Message no. 30
From: mooseshagger@*******.com (Captain Canuck)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 06:10:01 -0800
I agree it is a little munchkin.

I've always been of the opinion that you can always pretty well getaway with
anything once, maybe even twice. If my runners come up with an idea like,
"we'll put it in a van, cut the roof off the van and drive-by-mortar a
compound should we need to egress in short order," I would let them do it.

I might surprise them with things like concussive stun from firing in a
confined area, however, I tend to be permissive for innovative ideas.

It is also better to think that you should have a piece of kit and not-use
it, than to need a piece of kit and not have it. However, every so once in
a while, I have dosses compromised for whatever reason, and equipment it the
flat is abandoned. So, my players know they should keep themselves mobile,
lest they leave expensive caches behind with the lifestyle.

>From a forensics point of view, my players tend to throw guns in the river
after use, since I'm pretty reliable at making sure the authorities
investigate firearms crimes quite thoroughly. (Caveat, they might not care
if a drug dealer/ganger is fragged, but they would pay attention if multiple
bodies turn up with lots of big holes in them) So in the case of a mortar
attack, after they use it, it would go into a river, or a building
foundation, etc. Which also means that they need to be relatively discreet
and circumspect when buying some weapons since it won't be hard to add up
sequential mortar attacks and mortar purchases.

(I'm not a forensics expert, so I don't know how someone might go about
chasing "casings" from a mortar attack since none exist, however, in my
universe, it's possible to examine an explosion for clues, such as homemade
explosives, kitchen chemicals, military ordance. They might also scrutinise
a blast crater to find fragments of the mortar itself, and come up with
leads. From then it's a question of intelligence such as, what arms dealers
sell military mortars, etc.)

Maybe it's me, maybe it's my players, but they only seem to need light
pistols when they go to the Stuffer Shack on Friday nights. They carry
heavy pistols, which I can't fault, cuz I would too, but they know that a
Light Pistol can do the job against mobs with Professional Ratings of 2.

As it's been put quite eloquently, if it can't be concealed it's of dubious
value.

Rock On,

CMF.

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 31
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Peterson)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:15:47 -0700
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

So you're saying your shadowrunners typically walk around with grenade
launchers or mortars, for when they get into a firefight with some street
punks who make the mistake of trying to rob them?

No what Im saying is a 'smooth tube' packed in the right circustanses can do
some serious damage, provide beter capabilities than a GL and is limited
only by the ammunition the GM allows. As my quotes in TFA show Im the kind
of Sammy that walks around with a golf culb bag full of toys using the right
weapon for the right situation. And I dfont car who says what, in an urban
od defilalde situation NOTHING beats a mortar for high angel fire support.
Just the forst round in hanf\g fire configuration can make all the
differance. i dot know if anyone has worked up the blast radium for a 60mm
but Gurth check Twilight for a good example.

Scott 'Claymore mine rigged to chest as last ask of definace' Peterson
Message no. 32
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Peterson)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:18:25 -0700
From: "Damion Milliken" <DamionMilliken@*****.com.au>

> With the concealability of an MGL-6, why wouldn't they? Plenty of the
> runners in my games pack MGL-6's like they pack heavy pistols...

Damage code, range and burst radius. These things are great for spot on 2-3
target hits but man I tell you they ARE NOT 37-40 MM GL's and 60 MM mortars.
Trade off's as always. And again your looking at a guy who typicaly has 6-8
sheets ONLY for weapons ammuntions ad premade combat loads.

Scott 'Walking Arsenel' Peterson
Message no. 33
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 18:35:19 +0100
According to Scott Peterson, on Wednesday 05 March 2003 16:15 the word on
the street was...

> i dot know if anyone has
> worked up the blast radium for a 60mm but Gurth check Twilight for a
> good example.

I find Twilight: 2000 to be a less-than-reliable source when it comes to
details like this... Of course, I have a couple of volumes of Jane's on my
bookshelf :)

FWIW, one of those books gives American 60-mm mortar HE rounds a burst area
of 9 x 18 m. For SR, I suppose you could take that to mean they cause in
the order of 14S at -1/m.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Monster zonder waarde
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:38:07 +0000
At 01:52 PM 5/3/2003, Aestus Preliator wrote:
>Isn't that a little munchkin, if you don't mind my saying so? Sure they
>might be concealable, but a mortar's a mortar, and to use it at all in a
>busy urban setting would be just a little noticeable. Lone Star (and any
>other corp for that matter) would not take kindly to turning downtown
>Seattle into 1980's-era Beirut. After a couple of mortar-using firefights,
>they'd be onto you.

If I (as in me personally) were to be performing a shadowrun, an extraction
or similar where I had to get a team in and out of a complex (with myself
on the team and my life at stake) I would use every trick I had access to.
Including mortars, grenade launchers, Quad mounted .50s or whatever else.
The important thing in that case would be planning and preparation... you
can't set up a quad .50 outside a corporate building without attracting
attention, however if you put it in the back of a curtain sided truck with
a guy with a radio operating it and a mechanism set up to clear the
curtain... Mortars could be set up on the scrubland that I find behind most
industrial sites near me with target information pre-calc'ed, allowing them
to drop a preset sequence of loads on set waypoints once a transmission has
been sent saying that I'm clear. The heavy weapons would probably be
abandoned but if they've helped complete a job that would otherwise see me
in prison (or worse) then they've been worth it.

If some of my players would think that way (some already do) I'd be happy,
ATM they're still thinking in terms of gain, winning and combat; ignoring
(and being bored by) the legwork and planning phases.
I'm not saying that every job should be set up with high cover, artillery
and heavy weapons positions but working out that a job is one where they
would be more use than detriment is just another part of the whole planning
and legwork thing.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 35
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Mortars in general (was Mortars on Drones)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:20:47 +1100
Michael writes:

> Isn't that a little munchkin, if you don't mind my saying so?

Captain Canuck writes:

> I agree it is a little munchkin.

Scott writes:

> So you're saying your shadowrunners typically walk around with
> grenade launchers or mortars, for when they get into a firefight with
> some street punks who make the mistake of trying to rob them?
> <...>
> Ok Ill say thi after donningmy nomex suit. you all talk about realism
> and unchkinism like its a big thing.

The answer to all of these points is both "yes", and "no". Yes, (some
of) my
runners regularly pack an MGL-6 in a concealable holster under one armpit.
Just like they pack a heavy pistol in a concealable holster somewhere. With
the sort of concealability that an MGL-6 has, why not? Whether they use it
(or the heavy pistol for that matter) depends entirely on the circumstances.

If "a bunch of punks make the mistake of trying to rob you", then you're
probably not in too good a part of town. So, if you're say, in Redmond on
the way to a meet, then who cares what you use? Lone Star has the place
rated at D to Z. Why waste time and maybe be late to your meet? Blow the
bunch of them up with your pistol sized grenade launcher and keep on moving.

Likewise, in one campaign, which ran for two years real time and about 6
months game time, one player religiously carried a Great Dragon ATGM
disassembled in his backpack. He didn't carry much else besides a pistol and
perhaps an assault rifle (if circumstances warranted it). Half way to two
thirds of the way through the campaign, the player's team converged on the
"main bad guy" at a hospital in Portland and about the same time as the
Aztechnology hit squad with a cyberzombie and blood mages arrived on the
scene to capture the same "main bad guy". Fireworks ensured on a grand
scale, and as luck would have it, the character with the Great Dragon ATGM
ended up squaring off across the hospital foyer with the cyberzombie while
everyone else was duking it out elsewhere. Dodging back and forth for the
better part of two Combat Turns while under heavy automatic weapons fire
from the cyberzombie, they player burned Karma like nothing else to get his
ATGM assembled. In the end, he was lucky he had brought it along. Not much
else that the team had could have Seriously wounded the cyberzombie and
forced a tactical retreat on the part of the Aztech squad. And I can assure
you, in this particular circumstance, right in the middle of Portland, none
of the combatants were too concerned about noise. The battle was serious,
the prize huge, and both sides were well and truely equipped.

There's a lot to be said, as Scott does, about being _overequipped_. If
you've got too much stuff, then at least you can walk away without needing
to use it. If you're packing too little stuff, then you might not be walking
away at all.

The flip side, of course, is that if you're packing too much stuff in either
the wrong part of town, or in the wrong company, you run a higher risk of
getting busted by the authorities. And runners are not soldiers in a
battlefield. It does matter, to some degree, what they pack.

Yer pays yer nuyen, and takes yer chances. :-)

--
Damion Milliken E-Mail: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
ICQ: 177734389 | MSN: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au | AIM/Y!: DamionMilliken
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------

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