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Message no. 1
From: james@*************.fsnet.co.uk (J Lismore)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 19:51:28 +0100
According to my reading of Rigger 3 (p135) a motorcycle can not mount any
weapons unless it has a sidecar. Is this correct or am I missing something
as this does seem a bit tight.
Also the above mentioned text says the gun can only be forward firing. How
would this work?
Message no. 2
From: jameserec@*****.ca (Kato Combat Cabbie)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:45:30 -0400 (EDT)
--- J Lismore <james@*************.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote: > According to my reading of Rigger 3 (p135) a
> motorcycle can not mount any
> weapons unless it has a sidecar. Is this correct or
> am I missing something
> as this does seem a bit tight.
> Also the above mentioned text says the gun can only
> be forward firing. How
> would this work?
>
This seems to be a slight misinterpretation of the
rules IMO. It states that a motorcycle with a sidecar
can have 1 hardpoint which can mount up to an HMG
which must fir in a forward arc. If you are mounting
something as heavy as an HMG on a motorcycle then
firing off to the sides would definitely destabilize
the bike. According to the rules on that same page
the motorcycle does with a body of 2 have enough for 2
firmpoints which can mount pistols, smg's and even
assault rifles. Which is a much more reasonable
weapons load for a bike. I think the point that they
are trying to make is that even though a bike has a
body of 2, mounting a hardpoint weapon on it is
pushing the envelope unless you follow the criteria of
having it in a sidecar firing forward. Why they don't
let you have a sidecar tail gunner (aside from looking
weird) is your guess as well as mine.

====Kato Combat Cabbie

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Message no. 3
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:53:29 +1000
>> having it in a sidecar firing forward. Why they don't
>> let you have a sidecar tail gunner (aside from looking
>> weird) is your guess as well as mine.

If you want to fire backwards, mount a turret on the sdecar... or mount the
two firmpoints on the bike facing backwards...

"Rear mounted grenade launchers, anyone?"

GreyWolf
Message no. 4
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:07:48 +1000 (EST)
--- Kato Combat Cabbie <jameserec@*****.ca> wrote:
<snip>
>It states that a motorcycle with a
> sidecar
> can have 1 hardpoint which can mount up to an HMG
> which must fir in a forward arc. If you are
> mounting
> something as heavy as an HMG on a motorcycle then
> firing off to the sides would definitely destabilize
> the bike. According to the rules on that same page
> the motorcycle does with a body of 2 have enough for
> 2
> firmpoints which can mount pistols, smg's and even
> assault rifles. Which is a much more reasonable
> weapons load for a bike. I think the point that
> they
> are trying to make is that even though a bike has a
> body of 2, mounting a hardpoint weapon on it is
> pushing the envelope unless you follow the criteria
> of
> having it in a sidecar firing forward. Why they
> don't
> let you have a sidecar tail gunner (aside from
> looking
> weird) is your guess as well as mine.
>
> ====> Kato Combat Cabbie
>

IMHO mounting a weapon catering for a hardpoint such
as a HMG or assault cannon has It's merits. Yes It
would be pushing the envelope firing such a weapon In
transit, but It's versatile in the fact that you
transport heavy firepower to a RV point more quickly,
easily thru difficult terrain & normally inaccesible
areas by other means etc. for a quick setup.

If you were to fire weapon from a standstill with the
bike on a reinforced centerstand for instance (like
cranes when there operating four reinforced hydrolic
pillars anchor to ground, usually lifting entire body
of transport truck slightly so there's more downforce
applied to keep 4 areas of contact firmly set in
place, no chance in budging cause sheer weight
vehicle:frame & max. carr. cap.), you wouldn't have a
problem with bike dropping from instability (nasty
cost involved with having to replace side fender/panel
every time, not to mention inaccurate shot ;)

GZ

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Message no. 5
From: james@*************.fsnet.co.uk (J Lismore)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:50:36 +0100
> IMHO mounting a weapon catering for a hardpoint such
> as a HMG or assault cannon has It's merits. Yes It
> would be pushing the envelope firing such a weapon In
> transit, but It's versatile in the fact that you
> transport heavy firepower to a RV point more quickly,
> easily thru difficult terrain & normally inaccessible
> areas by other means etc. for a quick setup.
>
> GZ

The other part of my question would be, if the gun is forward facing
(presuming its locked in place) would you still use the same mechanics to
fire as normal?
Message no. 6
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 07:50:48 -0600
At 08:45 PM 5/1/2003 -0400, Kato Combat Cabbie wrote:
>Why they don't
>let you have a sidecar tail gunner (aside from looking
>weird) is your guess as well as mine.

My guess would be that they are accounting for leaving space for a
passenger in the side car.

With a forward facing HMG, the bulk of the machine gun (firing mechanism
and ammo box) would fit under the passenger's seat, with the barrel of the
HMG going between his legs. If you point the HMG out the rear, then I'm
guessing that while you could leave the ammo under the seat, the ammo feed
and the firing mechanism would eat up to much leg room to allow for a
passenger. You could of course work around this with a custom side car
design (I'm think of something that allows the passenger to sit reclined
with his legs up and over the HMG and ammo, but the passenger would still
have a high profile).

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 7
From: sinabian@*******.com (James Mick)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:38:35 -0400
<>Why they don't
let you have a sidecar tail gunner (aside from looking
weird) is your guess as well as mine.<>

Two words - car sickness! Unless of course the tailgunner could swivel
forward when it's not necessary to be looking backwards...

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Message no. 8
From: jameserec@*****.ca (Kato Combat Cabbie)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:22:53 -0400 (EDT)
--- Robert Ennew <robertennew@*****.com.au> wrote: >
If you were to fire weapon from a standstill with
> the
> bike on a reinforced centerstand for instance (like
> cranes when there operating four reinforced hydrolic
> pillars anchor to ground, usually lifting entire
> body
> of transport truck slightly so there's more
> downforce
> applied to keep 4 areas of contact firmly set in
> place, no chance in budging cause sheer weight
> vehicle:frame & max. carr. cap.), you wouldn't have
> a
> problem with bike dropping from instability (nasty
> cost involved with having to replace side
> fender/panel
> every time, not to mention inaccurate shot ;)
>
> GZ
I think an easier solution to this is to have three or
four stubs(legs) of a tripod welded to the frame of
the bike on one side and a pintle mount welded to the
other side. Sling the weapon over your back and when
you get to where you need to be drop the bike put on
the weapon and you are ready to rock and roll. Setup
time for this would be minimal. I could see street
gangs using this to move fire support quickly from
place to place.

====Kato Combat Cabbie

______________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: jameserec@*****.ca (Kato Combat Cabbie)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:36:51 -0400 (EDT)
--- J Lismore <james@*************.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
> The other part of my question would be, if the gun
> is forward facing
> (presuming its locked in place) would you still use
> the same mechanics to
> fire as normal?
>

There are several options on how to fire vehicle
weapons. If you have a gunner he would use his
gunnery skill to fire. If he and the weapon are
smartlinked they would get the bonuses from that. If
the weapon is remote fired it could be fired by either
the drone or the rigger-in-charge. If it is the drone
it uses it's pilot rating as the skill and can receive
bonuses from sensory enhanced gunnery,FDDM and IVIS.
If the rigger controls the gun remotely the he would
use his gunnery skill augmented with FDDM and sensory
enhanced gunnery. With any of these options a weapon
mounted directly to a hardpoint only has 15 degrees of
arc so the vehicle needs to be pointed fairly close to
the intended target

====Kato Combat Cabbie

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Message no. 10
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 11:12:53 +0200
According to James Mick, on Friday 02 May 2003 19:38 the word on the street
was...

> Two words - car sickness! Unless of course the tailgunner could swivel
> forward when it's not necessary to be looking backwards...

Sickness caused by traveling backwards is all between the ears. Sickness
caused by being on a swivelling seat in a moving vehicle is something
else, though -- in the 1970s, the US Army built prototypes of a
highly-advanced attack helicopter, the AH-56 Cheyenne (it looked almost
like a jet fighter with a rotor stuck on top, and it was intended to be
used in much the same manner). Its gunner's seat rotated to face the same
direction as the missile sight, but it was quickly discovered that this
caused nausea in the gunners, because when using the missile sight, their
sense of balance was telling them something completely different than
their eyes were.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 11
From: james@*************.fsnet.co.uk (J Lismore)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 00:53:42 +0100
> There are several options on how to fire vehicle
> weapons. If you have a gunner he would use his
> gunnery skill to fire. If he and the weapon are
> smartlinked they would get the bonuses from that. If
> the weapon is remote fired it could be fired by either
> the drone or the rigger-in-charge. If it is the drone
> it uses it's pilot rating as the skill and can receive
> bonuses from sensory enhanced gunnery, FDDM and IVIS.
> If the rigger controls the gun remotely the he would
> use his gunnery skill augmented with FDDM and sensory
> enhanced gunnery. With any of these options a weapon
> mounted directly to a hardpoint only has 15 degrees of
> arc so the vehicle needs to be pointed fairly close to the intended
> target
> ====> Kato Combat Cabbie

Thanx, but still not quite my question. As I said I'm not quite sure if the
rules cover having the gun attached to the bike and shooting by pointing the
bike. Would this now be some sort of drive roll, or still gunnery?
Message no. 12
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:14:01 +1000
>> Thanx, but still not quite my question. As I said I'm not quite
>> sure if the
>> rules cover having the gun attached to the bike and shooting by
>> pointing the
>> bike. Would this now be some sort of drive roll, or still gunnery?
>>

A firmpoint can be fired (using gunnery usually - preferably rigged if on a
motorbike) at any targett within 5 degrees of the directtion the bike is
pointing (if forward facing). So you point the bike at the target then fire
using gunnery if the target is still within the arc of fire.

GreyWolf
Message no. 13
From: jameserec@*****.ca (Kato Combat Cabbie)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:25:05 -0400 (EDT)
--- J Lismore <james@*************.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
> Thanx, but still not quite my question. As I said
> I'm not quite sure if the
> rules cover having the gun attached to the bike and
> shooting by pointing the
> bike. Would this now be some sort of drive roll, or
> still gunnery?
>

Gunnery

====Kato Combat Cabbie

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Message no. 14
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:10:59 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "GreyWolf" <nightgyr@*********.com.au>

> >> Would this now be some sort of drive roll, or still gunnery?

> A firmpoint can be fired (using gunnery usually - preferably rigged
if on a
> motorbike) at any targett within 5 degrees of the directtion the
bike is
> pointing (if forward facing). So you point the bike at the target
then fire
> using gunnery if the target is still within the arc of fire.

I suppose (I'm really not a rigger expert...) facing the bike (or
other vehicle) the correct direction would be some sort of positioning
test? Also, if the gun is not tied into the rigger system, you must
manually fire the weapon which is hard to do if also driving, correct?

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ: Da Twink Daddy (514984)
YM: DaTwinkDaddy
AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 15
From: jameserec@*****.ca (Kato Combat Cabbie)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:41:12 -0400 (EDT)
--- Da Twink Daddy <datwinkdaddy@*******.com> wrote:
>>
> I suppose (I'm really not a rigger expert...) facing
> the bike (or
> other vehicle) the correct direction would be some
> sort of positioning
> test? Also, if the gun is not tied into the rigger
> system, you must
> manually fire the weapon which is hard to do if also
> driving, correct?

With a weapon mounted on a hardpoint, firing the
weapon at a target is done solely with gunnery.
Unless it is a missle or something like that, in which
case I believe you use launch weapons skill. The
facing and orientation of the bike will only dictate
whether or not you are able to shoot at your intended
target. Normally there is no roll for this but if you
have to make a special manouver to bring the guns in
line then you have to make a driving test as dictated
by the GM. An example would be doing a bootlegger to
shoot someone behind you or doing a wheelie to get
some extra height. At the GM's discretion this may
also affect the difficulty of the shot. So as you can
see it is all up to how creative you and the GM would
like to get. In most cases just a gunnery test will
do.

====Kato Combat Cabbie

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Message no. 16
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:02:04 +1000 (EST)
--- Da Twink Daddy <datwinkdaddy@*******.com> wrote:
> I suppose (I'm really not a rigger expert...) facing
> the bike (or
> other vehicle) the correct direction would be some
> sort of positioning
> test? Also, if the gun is not tied into the rigger
> system, you must
> manually fire the weapon which is hard to do if also
> driving, correct?
>

I reckon If your guns tied into the rigger system like
you say, It's possible that you could fire the gun
while driving & compensate for It's effect by making a
handling test without a problem. Essentially when
you're jacked in you become the ghost in the machine,
you are the machine, you can pre empt & compensate
before recoil high sides your bike.

GZ

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Message no. 17
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Motorcycles and weapons
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:45:51 +1000 (EST)
--- Kato Combat Cabbie <jameserec@*****.ca> wrote:
> I think an easier solution to this is to have three
> or
> four stubs(legs) of a tripod welded to the frame of
> the bike on one side and a pintle mount welded to
> the
> other side. Sling the weapon over your back and
> when
> you get to where you need to be drop the bike put on
> the weapon and you are ready to rock and roll.
> Setup
> time for this would be minimal. I could see street
> gangs using this to move fire support quickly from
> place to place.
>
> ====> Kato Combat Cabbie
>
As long as the legs of the tripod to steady bike
aren't fixed, they need to be able to fold streamline
with the frame & have adequate clearance from ground,
otherwise It will hinder manouverability, especially
assuming you're using the convenience of a trailbike
for transport, & you'll throw yourself If one of the
extended legs collects or hits a divot, causing a
violent change of direction or sudden halt. With a
roadbike I've been layed sideways enough that the
pillions footpegs have scraped the bitumen & my toe
cappers collected being only mills off the ground. You
throw a traily around & put your foot down to right
yourself in difficult terrain a hell of alot more :)

GZ

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