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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Sun Jul 22 02:15:05 2001
S. Johnson writes:

> as the barriar was center behind me and tilted forward and down i could
> slide down it. as i slide down it it moved along with me.

Does anyone know if there is a ruling on whether magic barriers are moveable?
I've always thought that once you cast a Physical Barrier (or whatever), it
stayed where you initially positioned it.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 09:15:01 2001
On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Does anyone know if there is a ruling on whether magic barriers are moveable?
> I've always thought that once you cast a Physical Barrier (or whatever), it
> stayed where you initially positioned it.

I believe it would have to depend on where the spell was centered, and
what it was centered on.

Although something worth asking is what effect would a physical barrier
spell have on someone or something exactly the radius away from the centre
of effect? Would the spell cause harm to the aforesaid object? Would the
object merely be unable to move for the duration of the spell? Or would
the spell deform so as not to bisect the object?

Depending on how you rule on that, most of the time a physical barrier
spell might be immovable because almost half of the area of effect is
underground, so you'd be trying to move a quantity of the ground when you
try to move the spell.

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 11:30:01 2001
--- Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au> wrote:
> Does anyone know if there is a ruling on whether
> magic barriers are moveable?
> I've always thought that once you cast a Physical
> Barrier (or whatever), it
> stayed where you initially positioned it.

Yes.In page 174 of the SR3 core rulebook it says:
<<A ward must be placed on a non-living thing (walls,A
VEHICLE,rocks and so on).A ward cannot be moved FROM A
PHYSICAL COMPONENT to another location.>>

This means that you can cast a ward on a vehicle and
move artound with it.It works like a focus.The spell
moves with a focus but it cannot get out of it.


====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 11:40:03 2001
Shiro BsquLadat writes:

> Yes.In page 174 of the SR3 core rulebook it says:
> <<A ward must be placed on a non-living thing (walls,A
> VEHICLE,rocks and so on).A ward cannot be moved FROM A
> PHYSICAL COMPONENT to another location.>>
>
> This means that you can cast a ward on a vehicle and
> move artound with it.It works like a focus.The spell
> moves with a focus but it cannot get out of it.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to Barrier Spells (as
in the Manipulation spell that creates a Barrier, either a dome or a wall).

BTW, what do people think about warding the same thing twice? Say I want to
put two Force 4 wards on my house? Is this OK? What about if I want to ward
the outer wall with a Masking Ward and then the inner wall (remember, most
buildings have a wall cavity for cables and pipes) with a regular ward?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 12:00:01 2001
--- Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au> wrote:
> Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was
> referring to Barrier Spells (as
> in the Manipulation spell that creates a Barrier,
> either a dome or a wall).

It cann't be moved from it's position!Period!
According to the rules of course!!

> BTW, what do people think about warding the same
> thing twice? Say I want to
> put two Force 4 wards on my house? Is this OK? What
> about if I want to ward
> the outer wall with a Masking Ward and then the
> inner wall (remember, most
> buildings have a wall cavity for cables and pipes)
> with a regular ward?

I don't see why this couldn't happen as long as you
can see all the surface that you are warding during
the time of the creation of the ward.So you could cast
a ward on the wall and then install a fake wall and
make another one.
This way it could be done!

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 13:40:03 2001
According to Keith Duthie, on Mon, 23 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> Although something worth asking is what effect would a physical barrier
> spell have on someone or something exactly the radius away from the centre
> of effect? Would the spell cause harm to the aforesaid object? Would the
> object merely be unable to move for the duration of the spell? Or would
> the spell deform so as not to bisect the object?

My ruling has always been that Barrier spells leave gaps of exactly the
shape and size of any obstructions at the moment the spell is cast. If or
when the obstruction is removed, the gap instantly fills as far as
possible.

For example, you're just outside the radius of the spell, and are holding
your arm out toward its center at the moment it is cast. This means the
barrier forms neatly around your arm, allowing you to withdraw it if you
want to. However, because your arm gets thinner toward the wrist, the
barrier would continually fill any gaps that appear between it and your
arm, with the result that once you try to pull your wrist out, you're
stuck, because your arm gets wider at that point.

By extension, this allows a barrier spell to be moved after it's been cast,
but only as long as there is nothing in its way. If you're in a flat, empty
parking lot, you could move it around pretty much unhindered. If you're in
a straight, bare hallway, with bare rooms to all sides, you could move the
barrier forward and back, but not up, down, or sideways. As soon as there
is a wall at an angle to the direction of the hallway, the barrier will
also not go any further.

These are all house rules, but they've worked pretty well over the last few
years. Once the magician players understood the implications, that is :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 14:10:01 2001
On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Keith Duthie wrote:

> Depending on how you rule on that, most of the time a physical barrier
> spell might be immovable because almost half of the area of effect is
> underground, so you'd be trying to move a quantity of the ground when you
> try to move the spell.

Ok, before anyone else points it out: no I hadn't read that spell
description in a while...

/me hits his head against a physical barrier, telling himself "It's a
DOME, stupid!"
--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (S. Johnson)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 18:15:00 2001
>From: Keith Duthie <psycho@*********.co.nz>
>Would the
>object merely be unable to move for the duration of the spell? Or would
>the spell deform so as not to bisect the object?
>
>Depending on how you rule on that, most of the time a physical barrier
>spell might be immovable because almost half of the area of effect is
>underground, so you'd be trying to move a quantity of the ground when you
>try to move the spell.

Where does it say that the barriar goes underground? Personally i think that
is a waste of spell energy. Use it as a dome that ends at walls, ceilings
and other obstructions. i.e. the spell will not affect the next floor up
even though it may be within the radius of affect. If a person or other
thing got caught in the middle let the gm decide if they are in or out
autokill the pc, whatever the gm thinks is fair of course;)

Sagys

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 21:55:03 2001
>Does anyone know if there is a ruling on whether magic barriers are
moveable?
>I've always thought that once you cast a Physical Barrier (or whatever), it
>stayed where you initially positioned it.

A spells area of effect can be altered as a complex action. I think in the
case of a barirer that would require "disolving" the old barrier and
"reshaping" it elswhere, else you would have some wierd effects with the
barier "pushing" things.

-Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Jul 23 23:00:02 2001
"S. Johnson" <blueskyjohnson@*******.com> wrote:

>
> Where does it say that the barriar goes underground? Personally i think
that
> is a waste of spell energy. Use it as a dome that ends at walls, ceilings
> and other obstructions. i.e. the spell will not affect the next floor up
> even though it may be within the radius of affect. If a person or other
> thing got caught in the middle let the gm decide if they are in or out
> autokill the pc, whatever the gm thinks is fair of course;)
>

Alright, but only because you said so...

<egmg>

Zebulin


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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Tue Jul 24 05:00:00 2001
Gurth writes:

> My ruling has always been that Barrier spells leave gaps of exactly the
> shape and size of any obstructions at the moment the spell is cast. If or
> when the obstruction is removed, the gap instantly fills as far as
> possible.
>
> <Snip extraploations>

This is pretty much what I use, too, except that I haven't had the need to
extrapolate things quite so much :-). I assume, from your description, that
if I cast a barrier spell in a hallway, then the barrier exists only where I
can see? ie, it doesn't fill the hall, leave a gap where the wall is, and
continue on the other side. How would you rule if the walls were clear glass?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Tue Jul 24 05:05:00 2001
S. Johnson writes:

> If a person or other thing got caught in the middle let the gm decide if
> they are in or out autokill the pc, whatever the gm thinks is fair of
> course;)

What a great way to kill and destroy things. <grin>

Player: "I cast a Barrier spell over there, so that the edge of it is where
Bad Assed Muther Fragging Butt Kicking Dude Who's Handing Our Hoops To Us
is!"

GM: "OK, he is messily carved in twain as your barrier spell splits him
asunder. The two halves of him fall to the ground as his internal organs
splatter against the sides of your barrier spell, marring it with deep
crimson runoff."

Player: "Gee, he was kinda easy to whack!"

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Choiniere)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Tue Jul 24 17:45:01 2001
> --- Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au> wrote:
> > Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was
> > referring to Barrier Spells (as
> > in the Manipulation spell that creates a Barrier,
> > either a dome or a wall).
>
> It cann't be moved from it's position!Period!
> According to the rules of course!!
___________

I have to agree with the above statement... yes it can be created
anywhere within line of sight, and yes the area covered by the spell can be
changed during the casting as per area affect rules for spells, but once it
is made it is treated (with the exception of things the size of molecules)
just as if it was a wall of the barrier rating it possesses.... walls
don't move... *shrugs* if you want to make a ramp to run/slide out a
window with... kewl... but I wouldn't expect it to magic carpet you
down... you want to do that then cast levitate on a piece of carpet you
just ripped up... you could use it to bridge a gap between buildings, or
at the very least make a jump between them closer than they were before...
you could put one up infront of a fast moving motorcycle and watch the guy
flip over it, but I don't think you'll be getting too much more offensive
with it....

I'm still turning over in my mind whether or not it would slice people in
two or not... because manipulation spells CAN affect what you cannot
see... yes you can only cast a fireball where you can see it, but that guy
around the corner 3 feet from its epicenter if ALSO affected unlike if you
had just fired of a power-bolt.... see the difference? hrrrmmm...
methinks its best to keep it simple and say he'd get "pushed" or rejected
out of the area of influence of the spell, whether it be closer to the
inside/other side of the barrier or the outside of it....

one last thing about barrier spells... you can do BOTH a wall like plane,
or a dome.... either is described in the spell descrition....


> > BTW, what do people think about warding the same
> > thing twice? Say I want to
> > put two Force 4 wards on my house? Is this OK? What
> > about if I want to ward
> > the outer wall with a Masking Ward and then the
> > inner wall (remember, most
> > buildings have a wall cavity for cables and pipes)
> > with a regular ward?
>
> I don't see why this couldn't happen as long as you
> can see all the surface that you are warding during
> the time of the creation of the ward.So you could cast
> a ward on the wall and then install a fake wall and
> make another one.
> This way it could be done!

according to the rules you can ward any physical non-living thing and the
ward cannot be moved from its physical component to another location...
first off this means that any bullet that you are prepared to make yourself
can be warded... *shrugs* thats straight up by the book... secondly it
only says that wards cannot be moved from its physical component, not that
moving that component disrupts the ward in any way... after all, you
aren't moving the ward away from the component, you're just moving the
component itself... I see no reason why you can't ward your katana or the
ammo you make with your B/R skills and an ammo kit... though you have to
admit that anyone that goes overboard with this would light up like a
christmas tree in astral space... as such I'd compensate such an
advantage by making them attract all kinds of "interesting" magical
entities.... I mean its not every day that someone walks by with 60+ force
6 wards eh? (that'd be two clips of 30 ammo) and on top of that I'd also
consider the background count such a large collection of astral energy would
create.... no mage wants to start slinging spells with instant +4
modifiers or so....

its in the rules.... its legal... just make sure they are balanced out
by the consequences of such actions... those are just two LARGE ones in the
space of 5 minutes.... take an hour and I'm sure you can come up with alot
more....
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (S. Johnson)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Tue Jul 24 23:25:01 2001
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: Moveable Magical Barriers
>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:12:05 +1000 (EST)
>
>S. Johnson writes:
>
> > If a person or other thing got caught in the middle let the gm decide if
> > they are in or out autokill the pc, whatever the gm thinks is fair of
> > course;)
>
>What a great way to kill and destroy things. <grin>
>
>Player: "I cast a Barrier spell over there, so that the edge of it is where
>Bad Assed Muther Fragging Butt Kicking Dude Who's Handing Our Hoops To Us
>is!"
>
>GM: "OK, he is messily carved in twain as your barrier spell splits him
>asunder. The two halves of him fall to the ground as his internal organs
>splatter against the sides of your barrier spell, marring it with deep
>crimson runoff."
>
>Player: "Gee, he was kinda easy to whack!"
------
>

I think there was a misunderstanding there. i meant that autokill thing as a
joke ha ha. please dont kill pcs or npcs with it... unless they really
diserve it of course.

Sagys


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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael D Fontaine)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 02:15:01 2001
On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:54:52 -0400 "Michael Choiniere"
<chouiniere@********.net> writes:
>
> > --- Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au> wrote:
> > > Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was
> > > referring to Barrier Spells (as
> > > in the Manipulation spell that creates a Barrier,
> > > either a dome or a wall).
> >
> > It cann't be moved from it's position!Period!
> > According to the rules of course!!
> ___________
>
> I have to agree with the above statement... yes it can be
> created
> anywhere within line of sight, and yes the area covered by the spell
> can be
> changed during the casting as per area affect rules for spells, but
> once it
> is made it is treated (with the exception of things the size of
> molecules)
> just as if it was a wall of the barrier rating it possesses....
> walls
> don't move... *shrugs* if you want to make a ramp to run/slide
> out a
> window with... kewl... but I wouldn't expect it to magic carpet
> you
> down... you want to do that then cast levitate on a piece of
> carpet you
> just ripped up... you could use it to bridge a gap between
> buildings, or
> at the very least make a jump between them closer than they were
> before...
> you could put one up infront of a fast moving motorcycle and watch
> the guy
> flip over it, but I don't think you'll be getting too much more
> offensive
> with it....
>
> I'm still turning over in my mind whether or not it would slice
> people in
> two or not... because manipulation spells CAN affect what you
> cannot
> see... yes you can only cast a fireball where you can see it, but
> that guy
> around the corner 3 feet from its epicenter if ALSO affected unlike
> if you
> had just fired of a power-bolt.... see the difference?
> hrrrmmm...
> methinks its best to keep it simple and say he'd get "pushed" or
> rejected
> out of the area of influence of the spell, whether it be closer to
> the
> inside/other side of the barrier or the outside of it....
>
> one last thing about barrier spells... you can do BOTH a wall like
> plane,
> or a dome.... either is described in the spell descrition....


just a thought on warding Bullits... Arn't wards 3+force meters in size?
Or is that just Hermitic circles. I am almost shure that wards do have
some kind of size restraint.

Czar Eggbert
-Scrambled or Over Easy?

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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 03:25:01 2001
Michael Choiniere writes:

> <Snip logic on moving the spell once cast>

Yup, I agree, too :-).

> I'm still turning over in my mind whether or not it would slice people in
> two or not... because manipulation spells CAN affect what you cannot
> see... yes you can only cast a fireball where you can see it, but that guy
> around the corner 3 feet from its epicenter if ALSO affected unlike if you
> had just fired of a power-bolt.... see the difference? hrrrmmm...
> methinks its best to keep it simple and say he'd get "pushed" or rejected
> out of the area of influence of the spell, whether it be closer to the

If you make some sort of rule about it affecting targets that you cannot
see, then what happens if you cast the spell in a confined space, like a
building corridor? Does the spell slice open the walls? If it doesn't, then
how come it can slice people? If it can't slice people, but moves them, then
what does it do to immobile walls? Also, if it doesn't slice open the walls,
does it continue on the other side?

> its in the rules.... its legal... just make sure they are balanced out
> by the consequences of such actions... those are just two LARGE ones in the
> space of 5 minutes.... take an hour and I'm sure you can come up with alot
> more....

<evil GM grin> Good thinking!

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 03:40:01 2001
Michael D Fontaine writes:

> just a thought on warding Bullits... Arn't wards 3+force meters in size?
> Or is that just Hermitic circles. I am almost shure that wards do have
> some kind of size restraint.

I think that's Shamanic Lodges, actually. Although Hermetic Circles may be
the same (I always thought they were 1m per Force?).

Wards are limited by the volume being warded and the Magic Attribute of the
magicians warding it. It's possible to put a Force 1 ward on a skyscraper if
you've enough magicians, or a Force 27 ward on a car, too :-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 06:35:01 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 24 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> This is pretty much what I use, too, except that I haven't had the need to
> extrapolate things quite so much :-)

I had to spell it out more or less like this a few years ago when a player
had a Physical Barrier spell and wanted to know whether it could be moved,
and how. The rules interpretation/extrapolation we came up with then, is
roughly what I posted yesterday.

> I assume, from your description, that if I cast a barrier spell in a
> hallway, then the barrier exists only where I can see? ie, it doesn't
> fill the hall, leave a gap where the wall is, and continue on the other
> side.

More or less, yes. Not just where you can see, but anywhere there is
"empty" space. A cavity in the hallway wall, let's say a gas mains, would
be spanned and thereby prevent the barrier from moving. Not that I've ever
used that clause -- or even had a player realize this implication -- though.

> How would you rule if the walls were clear glass?

It's a solid obstruction, so it creates a gap in the barrier.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 06:35:18 2001
According to Michael Choiniere, on Tue, 24 Jul 2001 the word on the street
was...

> walls don't move... *shrugs*

You have seen Star Wars, right? :)

--
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-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 07:25:01 2001
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>

>More or less, yes. Not just where you can see, but anywhere there is
>"empty" space. A cavity in the hallway wall, let's say a gas mains, would
>be spanned and thereby prevent the barrier from moving. Not that I've ever
>used that clause -- or even had a player realize this implication --
>though.


Do you mean that the gas pipe would get filled up, as well?

Jane

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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 13:00:00 2001
According to Jane van Roekel, on Wed, 25 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> >More or less, yes. Not just where you can see, but anywhere there is
> >"empty" space. A cavity in the hallway wall, let's say a gas mains,
would
> >be spanned and thereby prevent the barrier from moving.
>
> Do you mean that the gas pipe would get filled up, as well?

Yes. This would not stop the gas flow, because the Barrier spell description
explicitly mentions that gases etc. can go through, but it would lock the
spell into position.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 14:15:01 2001
Gurth writes:

> Yes. This would not stop the gas flow, because the Barrier spell description
> explicitly mentions that gases etc. can go through, but it would lock the
> spell into position.

Hmm, I'm not so sure I agree that Barrier spells should create barriers in
regions that the caster cannot see, such as behind walls. Elemental
Manipulation spells have special rules regarding them affecting targets in
their area of effect that the caster cannot see, but other manipulation
spells follow the normal rules for Sorcery and line of sight.

Also, regarding your rules and moving barriers, am I right in saying that
the moving barrier has no strength? ie, if it's blokced at all by something,
then it cannot move in that direction, even if that something is a single
blade of grass?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Wed Jul 25 14:20:01 2001
Sebastian Wiers writes:

> A spells area of effect can be altered as a complex action. I think in the
> case of a barirer that would require "disolving" the old barrier and
> "reshaping" it elswhere, else you would have some wierd effects with the
> barier "pushing" things.

That would make a lot of sense, yeah. Where is the rule for altering the
area of effect of a spell as a Complex Action?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Jul 26 04:45:01 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Wed, 25 Jul 2001 the word on the street
was...

> Hmm, I'm not so sure I agree that Barrier spells should create barriers in
> regions that the caster cannot see, such as behind walls. Elemental
> Manipulation spells have special rules regarding them affecting targets in
> their area of effect that the caster cannot see, but other manipulation
> spells follow the normal rules for Sorcery and line of sight.

I'd say it depends on your interpretation; not letting a barrier continue
out of LOS makes it much easier to move it around under my group's house
rules, which is why I never mentioned the possibility to my group :)

> Also, regarding your rules and moving barriers, am I right in saying that
> the moving barrier has no strength? ie, if it's blokced at all by something,
> then it cannot move in that direction, even if that something is a single
> blade of grass?

I figure it has a Strength equal to its Force. If that's enough to push the
item aside, the barrier will move through; if the object is too heavy or
strong to move aside that way, the barrier will stop. A blade of grass is
pushed down, a 50 cm concrete wall is not :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Steffens)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Jul 26 06:45:00 2001
> From: Gurth

[snip barrier blocking gas pipes]
> Yes. This would not stop the gas flow, because the Barrier
> spell description explicitly mentions that gases etc. can
> go through, but it would lock the spell into position.

But liquids don't go through... >:)

Martin
- Oh the possibilities! -
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Choiniere)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Jul 26 18:55:05 2001
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:29 AM
>Subject: Re: Moveable Magical Barriers
>

>According to Michael Choiniere, on Tue, 24 Jul 2001 the word on the >street
>was...
>
> walls don't move... *shrugs*
>
>You have seen Star Wars, right? :)



yes, yes I have... I concede the point that if huge hydraulic rigs could
be set up that yes you could move it like any other wall.. :-p but
unless you keep Star Destroyer hydraulic trash compactor rigs in your back
pocket, I'd say you're S.O.L. if you wanna move your wall on the fly...
;-)
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Jul 26 21:05:01 2001
>> A spells area of effect can be altered as a complex action. I think in
the
>> case of a barirer that would require "disolving" the old barrier and
>> "reshaping" it elswhere, else you would have some wierd effects with
the
>> barier "pushing" things.
>
>That would make a lot of sense, yeah. Where is the rule for altering the
>area of effect of a spell as a Complex Action?

P. 51, MITS. Left hand column, a bit more than half way down:
"If an area-effect illusion or manipulation spell is sustained, the affected
area may be moved with a Complex Action..."

-Mongoose
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Jul 26 23:35:01 2001
Sebastian Wiers writes:

> P. 51, MITS. Left hand column, a bit more than half way down:
> "If an area-effect illusion or manipulation spell is sustained, the affected
> area may be moved with a Complex Action..."

I think that that little passage solves the question of whether Barrier
spells continue on the other side of walls and to places the caster cannot
see, too: "Area-effect spells cannot affect individuals who cannot be seen,
even if they are within the area designated for the effect". So a Barrier
cannot block anyone who the caster cannot see... Therefore it cannot block
people behind walls, fluids in pipes, etc. OTOH, what about if the caster
makes the spell a dome with him at the center? Is there a gap behind him
where he cannot see (unless he has additional cybereyes, of course :-))?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael D Fontaine)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Fri Jul 27 00:35:01 2001
<snip>
what about if the
> caster
> makes the spell a dome with him at the center? Is there a gap behind
> him
> where he cannot see (unless he has additional cybereyes, of course
> :-))?

I allways look at it as a Lawyer would. The wording is "can see" not
"sees" or "does see". Therefor if the area is LOS (ie not obstructed
or
hidden from view) it is covered. Ergo you can make a dome as long as all
parts of the dome have LOS to you.

Czar Eggbert

> --
> Damion Milliken


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Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Fri Jul 27 00:50:01 2001
Michael D Fontaine writes:

> I allways look at it as a Lawyer would. The wording is "can see" not
> "sees" or "does see". Therefor if the area is LOS (ie not
obstructed or
> hidden from view) it is covered. Ergo you can make a dome as long as all
> parts of the dome have LOS to you.

Hmm, good point!

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Choiniere)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Sun Jul 29 20:45:00 2001
>
>
> just a thought on warding Bullits... Arn't wards 3+force meters in size?
> Or is that just Hermitic circles. I am almost shure that wards do have
> some kind of size restraint.
>
> Czar Eggbert
> -Scrambled or Over Easy?
>


yes they do have a size restraint... the maximum area warded is 50 times
the magic attribute of the person creating the ward, with other rules
pertaining to a group of mages creating the ward.... its not based on
force of the ward... so a force 6 ward can be created the size of an
8"x11" piece of paper and a force 2 ward that wards an entire 20 foot by 20
foot room...

it appears to be variable to the desires of the creator, but I would think
that 20 ft radius wards on multiple bullets in one clip would conflict with
each other so you could only effectivly ward an area the size of the bullet
itself if you wanted to use them in some offensive manner like that....
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Matt Bond)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Tue Jul 31 06:20:01 2001
> From: "Michael Choiniere" <chouiniere@********.net>
> To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Subject: Re: Moveable Magical Barriers
> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:54:25 -0400
> Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>
> >
> >
> > just a thought on warding Bullets... Aren't wards 3+force
> meters in size?
> > Or is that just Hermitic circles. I am almost sure that
> wards do have
> > some kind of size restraint.
> >
> > Czar Eggbert
> > -Scrambled or Over Easy?
> >
>
>
> yes they do have a size restraint... the maximum area
> warded is 50 times
> the magic attribute of the person creating the ward, with other rules
> pertaining to a group of mages creating the ward.... its
> not based on
> force of the ward... so a force 6 ward can be created the
> size of an
> 8"x11" piece of paper and a force 2 ward that wards an entire
> 20 foot by 20
> foot room...
>
> it appears to be variable to the desires of the creator, but
> I would think
> that 20 ft radius wards on multiple bullets in one clip would
> conflict with
> each other so you could only effectively ward an area the size
> of the bullet
> itself if you wanted to use them in some offensive manner
> like that....

In any case, it's only entering a warded area/volume that causes the
nasty consequences (or does merely touching it set it off?...), so a
warded bullet will have little more effect than a normal bullet as very
little (if any) of the target actually *enters* the *bullet*... more the
reverse..

So a ward touches the astral creature as it passes through, causing
normal bullet damage (so ok, the astral creature will take damage as its
astral form is torn by the passage of the ward through it, just as flesh
is torn by the passage of a mundane bullet) but no added bonuses from it
triggering the ward, at least not in my SRU (ShadowRun Universe). In my
SRU, it requires an active act for an astral entity to enter a warded
area...

Comments welcome.

Matt
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Choiniere)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Tue Jul 31 16:40:04 2001
> In any case, it's only entering a warded area/volume that causes the
> nasty consequences (or does merely touching it set it off?...), so a
> warded bullet will have little more effect than a normal bullet as very
> little (if any) of the target actually *enters* the *bullet*... more the
> reverse..
>
> So a ward touches the astral creature as it passes through, causing
> normal bullet damage (so ok, the astral creature will take damage as its
> astral form is torn by the passage of the ward through it, just as flesh
> is torn by the passage of a mundane bullet) but no added bonuses from it
> triggering the ward, at least not in my SRU (ShadowRun Universe). In my
> SRU, it requires an active act for an astral entity to enter a warded
> area...
>
> Comments welcome.
>
> Matt


only thing I have against the "active act" bit is the description of a dual
natured creature being physically pushed through a warded area and thus
being affected by the ward... I know for sure that in that instance the
were I think it was, did NOT want to go through or actively enter it, the
creature was being forced through.... and physics being the way it is, two
objects hitting each other both going 60 mph or on hitting the other at 120,
the effects are damn close to the same....

but thats just my view of it...
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Aug 2 00:45:05 2001
Michael Choiniere writes:

> it appears to be variable to the desires of the creator, but I would think
> that 20 ft radius wards on multiple bullets in one clip would conflict with
> each other so you could only effectivly ward an area the size of the bullet
> itself if you wanted to use them in some offensive manner like that....

I always thought that the dimensions of the ward had to match the dimensions
of the object. ie, that you had to ward the surface/wall/etc of the object
being warded. Thus it wouldn't be possible to put a 20 cubic meter ward on a
bullet, as the ward has to follow the outer dimensions of the bullet (about
1-2 cubic centimeters, probably).

Taking a look at the rules, this isn't eactly how they are worded, is it?
Reading them, it would be possible to put a 50 cubic meter ward on my garden
gnome, and have it envelop my house and garage...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Aug 2 00:55:04 2001
Matt Bond writes:

> In any case, it's only entering a warded area/volume that causes the
> nasty consequences (or does merely touching it set it off?...)

It's passing through it (or attempting to) that has bad side effects, merely
"bumping into" it doesn't hurt you :-).

> , so a warded bullet will have little more effect than a normal bullet as
> very little (if any) of the target actually *enters* the *bullet*... more
> the reverse..
>
> So a ward touches the astral creature as it passes through, causing
> normal bullet damage (so ok, the astral creature will take damage as its
> astral form is torn by the passage of the ward through it, just as flesh
> is torn by the passage of a mundane bullet) but no added bonuses from it
> triggering the ward, at least not in my SRU (ShadowRun Universe). In my
> SRU, it requires an active act for an astral entity to enter a warded
> area...

Your logic sounds fine so long as there is no _forced_ interaction. How
would you rule if a shapeshifter (dual natured) was in an express elevator
going up, the floor of the 13th story was warded, and the elevator was going
to the 15th? The shapeshifter is not attempting to pass through the ward
_intentionally_, but it is certainly going to be passing through or getting
squished, as the elevator isn't stopping...

There are rules for this in MitS.

The same circumstance applies to a warded bullet, doesn't it?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steadfast)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Aug 2 04:20:01 2001
And thus spoketh Damion Millikenon the day August 02, 2001 a.d. regarding
Moveable Magical Barriers:

<snip>

> > So a ward touches the astral creature as it passes through, causing
> > normal bullet damage (so ok, the astral creature will take damage as its
> > astral form is torn by the passage of the ward through it, just as flesh
> > is torn by the passage of a mundane bullet) but no added bonuses from it
> > triggering the ward, at least not in my SRU (ShadowRun Universe). In my
> > SRU, it requires an active act for an astral entity to enter a warded
> > area...
>
> Your logic sounds fine so long as there is no _forced_ interaction. How
> would you rule if a shapeshifter (dual natured) was in an express elevator
> going up, the floor of the 13th story was warded, and the elevator was
going
> to the 15th? The shapeshifter is not attempting to pass through the ward
> _intentionally_, but it is certainly going to be passing through or
getting
> squished, as the elevator isn't stopping...

Same question came out about the time 3rd edition sprang into life (though
at that time we had it that an activated focus was beeing used for the
example. Some nasties wanted to get the mage who used it to get strangled
*snikers*). Annyone got the solution that was worked out that time?
Funny how the questions repeat themself. As far as I know, moving barriers
where in that time more or less accepted. Damn, to long ago, sadly, but
maybe one of the oldtimers here has keepen track of that ?

> There are rules for this in MitS.
May You can get a more specific (page or so?)?
That'll be nice, thank You :)

Daniel aka
Steadfast

-----------------------------------------------------------
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**
Killing is my buisiness, and business is good.
atm....
**
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Aug 2 10:40:05 2001
Steadfast writes:

> > There are rules for this in MitS.
> May You can get a more specific (page or so?)?
> That'll be nice, thank You :)

Sorry, I assumed that you already realised this (after all, the thread did
start with a question from me about this exact rule, which I summarised and
gave a reference to). It's on page 83.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steadfast)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Aug 2 15:55:02 2001
And thus spoketh Damion Milliken on the day August 02, 2001 a.d. regarding
Moveable Magical Barriers:

-----------------------------------------------------------
Proud owner of German Baby no. 89
**
Killing is my buisiness, and business is good.
atm....
**

> Steadfast writes:
>
> > > There are rules for this in MitS.
> > May You can get a more specific (page or so?)?
> > That'll be nice, thank You :)
>
> Sorry, I assumed that you already realised this (after all, the thread did
> start with a question from me about this exact rule, which I summarised
and
> gave a reference to). It's on page 83.

Thank You, now I read You.
Daniel aka
Steadfast
-----------------------------------------------------------
Proud owner of German Baby no. 89
**
Killing is my buisiness, and business is good.
atm....
**
Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Thu Aug 2 18:45:01 2001
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>

>Matt Bond writes:
>
> > In any case, it's only entering a warded area/volume that causes the
> > nasty consequences (or does merely touching it set it off?...)
>
>It's passing through it (or attempting to) that has bad side effects,
>merely
>"bumping into" it doesn't hurt you :-).


>
> > , so a warded bullet will have little more effect than a normal bullet
>as
> > very little (if any) of the target actually *enters* the *bullet*...
>more
> > the reverse..
> >
> > So a ward touches the astral creature as it passes through, causing
> > normal bullet damage (so ok, the astral creature will take damage as its
> > astral form is torn by the passage of the ward through it, just as flesh
> > is torn by the passage of a mundane bullet) but no added bonuses from it
> > triggering the ward, at least not in my SRU (ShadowRun Universe). In my
> > SRU, it requires an active act for an astral entity to enter a warded
> > area...
>
>Your logic sounds fine so long as there is no _forced_ interaction.

Hi Damion, are you saying that because of the theory of relativity or
whatever, the creature's flesh is trying to enter the warded bullet and thus
takes damage?


Jane

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Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Fri Aug 3 02:15:02 2001
Jane van Roekel writes:

> Hi Damion, are you saying that because of the theory of relativity or
> whatever, the creature's flesh is trying to enter the warded bullet and
> thus takes damage?

Er, yeah, kind of an "aural exclusion principle", in that no two astrally
present auras may coexist in the same space at the same time without
detrimental effects.

There are rules for normal interaction between astral auras and astral
barriers, as found in SR3.

There are rules for 'fast' (forced, unintentional) interaction between
astral auras and astral barriers, as found in MitS.

The rules only specifically mention a moving aura interacting with an
immobile barrier, though. An example is a dual natured entity in an evelator
passing through a ward.

This is easily extended to circumstances such as three mundane goons picking
up a manifested spirit in melee, and ramming it through a warded door (sure
beats trying to kill it with mundane methods ;-)).

What about if the ward is mobile? Say you ward your van. Say you then open
up the double back doors, and drive around in reverse. The opening at the
back of the van is a warded door. Say you reverse really fast into a dual
natured entity. The entity is tipped into the back of your van when you hit
it. However, although it's physical body can be tipped into your van, the
ward prevents it's astral part from being tipped. Is it reasonable to use
the fast interaction rules in such a circumstance? I think it is.

Or how about if I ward a large cardboard box. Now, keeping one end open, I
run around and try to put it over dual creatures, forcing them through the
ward at the open end. Forced, fast resolution? Yes.

Complications arise if I do something like capture a dual entity, and then
while holding it down, stuff just a portion (say a limb) through the opening
of my cardboard box. What happens then? The dual entity has been forced
through the ward quickly, but not entirely. I still think that the fast
resolution system is a reasonable system to use: the dual entity did not
wish to pass through the ward, and it was being rammed through by me.

So how about if I try to ram a small ward through an astrally present
entity? How is that truely different to ramming a portion of an astrally
present entity through a ward? I don't see that it is. And if my small ward
happens to be attached to a bullet travelling at the speed of sound, then
the fast interaction rules are the sensible rules to use, as the entity
neither wished to pass through the ward, nor had a chance to avoid it.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Sat Aug 4 00:30:03 2001
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>

>So how about if I try to ram a small ward through an astrally present
>entity? How is that truely different to ramming a portion of an astrally
>present entity through a ward?

I tried reading the rules, which actually cleared up my original confusion,
and I don't have MitS, so I don't know how that rule works. But it seems to
me that a small ward would do less damage than a big ward because it affects
less of the creature. Kind of like a knife doing less damage than a sword.


Jane


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Message no. 42
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Sat Aug 4 07:10:01 2001
Jane van Roekel writes:

> >So how about if I try to ram a small ward through an astrally present
> >entity? How is that truely different to ramming a portion of an astrally
> >present entity through a ward?
>
> I tried reading the rules, which actually cleared up my original confusion,
> and I don't have MitS, so I don't know how that rule works. But it seems to
> me that a small ward would do less damage than a big ward because it affects
> less of the creature. Kind of like a knife doing less damage than a sword.

I posted a summary of the MitS rule earlier on. If you want, I can check the
archives and find it again. :-)

The problem with wards is that "size" is not determined by the area or
volume that the ward occupies. It is determined by the Force of the ward. A
huge skysraper can be warded with a mere Force 1 ward. OTOH, a tiny chip
case can be warded with a powerful Force 12 ward.

The interaction between a Force 1 ward with an astral aura is the same
regardless of it's volume. Ditto with a Force 12 ward - a Force 12 ward on a
twenty story building interacts and probably disrupts an astral aura just as
much as a Force 12 ward on a cat sized cardboard box.

With wards (and most other astral entities) it's their innate magical
potency or strength that is important, not their physical dimensions. Magic
or mana is the factor that determines power on the astral plane. If I make a
Rating 1 focus as a necklace charm, it is as potent as a Rating 1 focus the
size of an olympic swimming pool. If either one attempts to move through a
ward, they are both as easily destroyed (mind you, moving an olympic
swimming pool sized focus anywhere might be more than a little difficult
;-)).

Of course, a large amount of this is speculation and inference on my part,
as the rules do not _specifically_ say such things. However, I feel that
they certainly do infer that this is the case :-). At least, they infer that
this _is_ the case significantly more than they infer it is _not_ the case.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 43
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Mon Aug 6 20:25:02 2001
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>

>With wards (and most other astral entities) it's their innate magical
>potency or strength that is important, not their physical dimensions.
>Magic
>or mana is the factor that determines power on the astral plane. If I make
>a
>Rating 1 focus as a necklace charm, it is as potent as a Rating 1 focus the
>size of an olympic swimming pool. If either one attempts to move through a
>ward, they are both as easily destroyed (mind you, moving an olympic
>swimming pool sized focus anywhere might be more than a little difficult
>;-)).


Sounds reasonable. I have trouble imagining something without physical
dimensions, so that's probably what's confusing me. Astral space is weird!

Jane

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Message no. 44
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Moveable Magical Barriers
Date: Tue Aug 7 06:05:20 2001
According to Jane van Roekel, on Tue, 07 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> Sounds reasonable. I have trouble imagining something without physical
> dimensions, so that's probably what's confusing me. Astral space is weird!

Wards do have physical dimensions -- after all, astral space is pretty much
identical in size and shape to the physical plane, so there are dimensions
there as well -- but it's just that <cliche>size doesn't matter</cliche>
when it comes to magical items.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Further Reading

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