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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Movement & Actions
Date: Mon Aug 6 03:35:03 2001
Hi Folks!

I was thinking about movement, cover, and actions.

In the SR rules, it takes a Simple Action to "Change Position". This refers
to standing from a prone position, or properly going prone (as opposed to
falling) from a standing position. (Although the exact uses of going prone,
other than perhaps hiding behind low cover, are not elaborated on.)

To me, it seems reasonable to consider taking cover to be a "Change Position"
Simple Action, too. So someone hiding completely behind the edge of a wall
(8 points of cover ;-)) can get into 0, 2, 4, or 6 points with a Change
Position Action. If they get into 2 points and feel that they're getting
shot up too much, they can get into 6 points for another Change Position
Action. Likewise, someone standing nearby to some cover (like next to a
tree), and get into 2, 4, 6, or 8 points of cover for a Change Position
Action. Note that the act of getting into or out of cover with a Change
Position Simple Action does not involve moving, and so does not apply the
movement modifiers to actions.

Does this sound reasonable? Or do people think it would be better to
represent this by making characters move (walk) instead?

The other thing I was thinking about was when, during their movement, do
characters (have to) take their actions? Say Erif Gnab was walking past a
doorway. For arguments, sake, say he walks 4m this Pass. He is 2m from the
doorway to begin with, so he walks 2m to the doorway, fires his handgun at a
target through the doorway, and walks another 2m past the doorway (and thus
into full cover). He uses his remaining Simple Action to pull out a grenade.

I can see that this is a reasonable interpretation of the movement rules. As
a GM, I would probably make Erif spend a Free Action to Observe when he got
to the doorway, so that he could see what was on the other side.

Normally players (and GMs) in SR tend to have characters move first, then
take action. However, I can see that if we allow characters to, say, fire
then move (behind a building), then the dynamics of a SR firefight may
change significantly. Movement, and Delayed Actions in anticipation of
someone else running out of cover, firing, and then running back into cover,
will be the new way of fighting. I rather like this idea, as not only is it
more cinematic, it gets movement modifiers up the whazoo for combatants,
which means that they tend to miss a lot (which is more cinematic ;-)).

What does everyone think of this?

PS. How many people are still on the list? I'm thinking that it might be
time to finally migrate to the DumpShock Forums, and give ShadowRN the arse
:-(. The number of people on the list seems to have dwindled considerably in
the last year or two, and I've been taking a look around the forums (I hate
the forums, but that's another story ;-)), and there seem to be hundreds of
people over there. I wonder if there is any way to gate the forums to the
list, and vice-versa?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Movement & Actions
Date: Mon Aug 6 05:20:02 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Mon, 06 Aug 2001 the word on the street
was...

> In the SR rules, it takes a Simple Action to "Change Position". This refers
> to standing from a prone position, or properly going prone (as opposed to
> falling) from a standing position. (Although the exact uses of going prone,
> other than perhaps hiding behind low cover, are not elaborated on.)

Logically, firing at a prone target from the front (or rear) would get you
a modifier for attacking a small target. It'd help if this had been in the
rules, though.

> To me, it seems reasonable to consider taking cover to be a "Change
Position"
> Simple Action, too. So someone hiding completely behind the edge of a wall
> (8 points of cover ;-)) can get into 0, 2, 4, or 6 points with a Change
> Position Action.

Sounds reasonable to me, if they consciously want to get into or out of
cover. You won't be charging a Simple Action for someone who's walking
already to go around the corner of a building, out of sight of attackers,
right?

> The other thing I was thinking about was when, during their movement, do
> characters (have to) take their actions? Say Erif Gnab was walking past a
> doorway. For arguments, sake, say he walks 4m this Pass. He is 2m from the
> doorway to begin with, so he walks 2m to the doorway, fires his handgun at a
> target through the doorway, and walks another 2m past the doorway (and thus
> into full cover). He uses his remaining Simple Action to pull out a grenade.
>
> I can see that this is a reasonable interpretation of the movement rules. As
> a GM, I would probably make Erif spend a Free Action to Observe when he got
> to the doorway, so that he could see what was on the other side.

BTB, that'd be a Simple Action. (In my group, it'd be a Complex one to make
it more of a gamble for the players -- do you want to run the risk of
shooting the wrong person, or of being shot yourself?) Other than that, I
agree with your interpretation/ruling: the character could shoot while
passing the doorway, and get the Attacker Walking modifier as a reward :)

> Normally players (and GMs) in SR tend to have characters move first, then
> take action.

This isn't D&D3, where you move either before or after taking your actual
action, but not at the same time (unless you have the appropriate Feat).

FWIW, I pretty much let them do actions and movement in whatever order
works -- move then fire, fire then move, fire while moving -- as long as
it's believable that they can do it, and it doesn't get excessive.

> PS. How many people are still on the list? I'm thinking that it might be
> time to finally migrate to the DumpShock Forums, and give ShadowRN the arse
> :-(. The number of people on the list seems to have dwindled considerably in
> the last year or two, and I've been taking a look around the forums (I hate
> the forums, but that's another story ;-))

You and me both. All the people over there should come and post (properly!)
over here... But I suspect that the vast majority of them don't even know
there's such a thing as mailing lists at all...

> and there seem to be hundreds of people over there. I wonder if there is
> any way to gate the forums to the list, and vice-versa?

I've been wondering about the same thing. I don't suppose it should be very
difficult, but it seems to me that compatibility problems will cause
aggravation on both sides: on a WWW forum they don't need to quote messages
in order to show what they're replying to, so here on the list we'd get
lots of posts that seem to be going on about something, but without a clue
_what_ it is they're talking about. OTOH we habitually quote sections that
would be unnecessary on a WWW forum, so they'd probably get annoyed at
seeing the same stuff repeated over and over for no apparent reason in
replies...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Movement & Actions
Date: Mon Aug 6 11:00:03 2001
Gurth writes:

> Logically, firing at a prone target from the front (or rear) would get you
> a modifier for attacking a small target. It'd help if this had been in the
> rules, though.

But there isn't a TN modifier for attacking a small target. Shooting an
aircraft carrier is still base TNs. Shooting a mouse is still base TNs.
(Interestingly, shooting a mouse standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier
is the same TN as shooting the carrier itself. Even more interestingly,
shooting the bridge building on the deck of an aircraft carrier is a called
shot for +4!)

A +1 "cover" modifier would probably be appropriate for a prone target,
however.

> Sounds reasonable to me, if they consciously want to get into or out of
> cover. You won't be charging a Simple Action for someone who's walking
> already to go around the corner of a building, out of sight of attackers,
> right?

No :-). I was also thinking that it may be reasonable to allow characters to
change their cover by moving (and accepting the +1 walking modifier), and
thus not needing to spend a Simple Action doing it. This also might just be
an easier way of handling cover overall, now that I think about it. Which
sounds better?

> > I can see that this is a reasonable interpretation of the movement
> > rules. As a GM, I would probably make Erif spend a Free Action to Observe
> > when he got to the doorway, so that he could see what was on the other
> > side.
>
> BTB, that'd be a Simple Action. (In my group, it'd be a Complex one to make
> it more of a gamble for the players -- do you want to run the risk of
> shooting the wrong person, or of being shot yourself?) Other than that, I
> agree with your interpretation/ruling: the character could shoot while
> passing the doorway, and get the Attacker Walking modifier as a reward :)

There's a Free Action called "Observe" (p 105 SR3):

A character may observe as a Free Action. See /Perception/ p. 231. A
character who is observing can only see what is immediately obvious,
though active vision enhancements (low-light, thermographic) apply.
No actual Perception Test is possible when observing as a Free
Action. (See also /Observe in Detail/ under /Simple Actions/.)

I think in this circumstance a Free Action is all that's required. If the
situation on the other side of the door was unclear, say if someone had let
off a smoke grenade and there were 4 indistinct figures, then I'd probably
require a Perception Test, and thus an Observe in Detail for a Simple Action,
in Erif wanted to try to determine who was who. Of course, he could just
open up on whichever indistinct shape took his fancy at the time :-).

> You and me both. All the people over there should come and post (properly!)
> over here... But I suspect that the vast majority of them don't even know
> there's such a thing as mailing lists at all...

Unfortunately, it's the way of the future :-(. I signed up today, and I'm
going to poke around for a while and try and get used to it. Sooo slooooow
and horribly organised! :-(

> <snip Gating>

Hmm. I hadn't thought about those problems. Yeah, it wouldn't work :-(.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Movement & Actions
Date: Mon Aug 6 13:50:13 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Mon, 06 Aug 2001 the word on the street
was...

> But there isn't a TN modifier for attacking a small target. Shooting an
> aircraft carrier is still base TNs. Shooting a mouse is still base TNs.

Except for manual gunnery from a vehicle, in which case attacking a target
of 1/3rd human size or smaller gets a +1 TN modifier. Quite why this only
applies to firing a vehicle-mounted weapon, I'm not sure, but I'd apply it
to shooting at other small targets as well.

> No :-). I was also thinking that it may be reasonable to allow characters to
> change their cover by moving (and accepting the +1 walking modifier), and
> thus not needing to spend a Simple Action doing it. This also might just be
> an easier way of handling cover overall, now that I think about it. Which
> sounds better?

Either is good, IMHO. If you have players who can understand semi-complex
rules :) you can give them the option, I think.

> There's a Free Action called "Observe" (p 105 SR3):
>
> A character may observe as a Free Action. See /Perception/ p. 231. A
> character who is observing can only see what is immediately obvious,
> though active vision enhancements (low-light, thermographic) apply.
> No actual Perception Test is possible when observing as a Free
> Action. (See also /Observe in Detail/ under /Simple Actions/.)

Well yes, but if you try that in the situation you described (walking past
an open door and shooting someone inside the room) then in my game all the
information you'd get would be, "There are two human-sized people in the
room." For any more, you would have to use the Complex Action (Simple
Action if you do it BTB) to Observe In Detail.

> I think in this circumstance a Free Action is all that's required. If the
> situation on the other side of the door was unclear, say if someone had let
> off a smoke grenade and there were 4 indistinct figures, then I'd probably
> require a Perception Test, and thus an Observe in Detail for a Simple Action,
> in Erif wanted to try to determine who was who. Of course, he could just
> open up on whichever indistinct shape took his fancy at the time :-).

And that's exactly why we've made it a Complex Action -- else you can use
one Simple Action to positively ID your target, and another to shoot. Now
you have to hope you're lucky...

> > <snip Gating>
>
> Hmm. I hadn't thought about those problems. Yeah, it wouldn't work :-(.

It could work, if neither side would mind the clutter it's going to cause.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: Movement & Actions
Date: Tue Aug 7 07:45:07 2001
>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:41:09 +1000 (EST)
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>

<SNIP FROM HELL>

>What does everyone think of this?

That's pretty much as I try to make fights feel. My players are new to SR
however, and don't get the tactics within the game system subtleties very
well, so it's an NPC behavior for the moment. Hopefuly they haven't faced
really skilled opponents yet (well, they have, but that confusion spirit
power is damn powerfull). But yes, it's all about cover (and suppresive
fire), delayed actions, and tactics. In the end, there are much less dice
rolls, and the game rotates more around tactical positioning than wads of
dices. I like it, and players with less combat-oriented characters too.

>PS. How many people are still on the list? I'm thinking that it might be
>time to finally migrate to the DumpShock Forums, and give ShadowRN the arse
>:-(. The number of people on the list seems to have dwindled considerably in
>the last year or two, and I've been taking a look around the forums (I hate
>the forums, but that's another story ;-)), and there seem to be hundreds of
>people over there. I wonder if there is any way to gate the forums to the
>list, and vice-versa?

Plenty of the old crowd must have gone lurking, I believe. But with RN,
DSF, bulldrek (that dragged some good -if argumentative as hell- RNers
away), local SR communities for foreigners (e.g. in France we have two
mailing lists, player and GM, and one forum, all quite active), information
is way less concentrated and people don't have infinite time to give to
online SR. And new people hang out where there the most activity, namely
the DSF, despite the MUCH higher signal-to-noise ratio of RN. That's human
gregarious instinct, I guess. :-( Also, RN is full of old-timers who don't
need to ask much. Add this with few new blood ... I'm not that much of an
old-timer, I've been around for a year and a half, but it's true that RN
has lost part of its spice.

Molloy

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