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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Moving Up
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:39:36 -0600
Tim Kerby wrote:
/
/ On 18 Aug 98, at 11:59, XaOs wrote:
/
/ > > I disagree :) Have you ever encountered people who live in poor
/ > > neighborhoods? They're either quiters (the drug addicts, alcoholics,
/ > > abused spouses, abusive spouses, etc) or campers (those that get by and
/ > > don't take steps to improve their life). All of the climbers (the ones
/ > > with willpower and drive) move out and up. Everyone has access to the
/ > > means to better their station in life.
/ >
/ > This is obviously the word of someone who hasn't experienced it for
/ > themselves firsthand. (And I doubt that any are on this list...but who
/ > knows).

Me personally, no.

The US Depression hit shortly after my grandfather got married. During
the depression he worked as a school bus driver to raise his 5
children. He also took extra jobs and learned to farm. He (somehow)
learned to weld and became a contract welder for the government. He
saved his money and used it to invest in another house and a trailer
park. To make a long story short, my grandfather with very nothing to
start with and in a very bad situation went on to own two houses and a
trailer park, care for a garden on a half acre lot, buy refurbish and
sell antique furniture, and live a very good life.

While he made a good enough living to feed and cloth his family, he
didn't have enough money to send my father to college (he didn't become
good with real estate until after my father graduated). My father
worked his way through college on his own. Again, to make a long story
short, my father started with little and is now doing pretty good.

Thanks to my father and grandfather I started with quite a bit and
didn't have to climb up out of poverty. So no, haven't personally
experienced what it's like. That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm
talking about.

/ I know people who have, and they agree with David. Blaming your
/ situation for your problems is living in denial, and looking for an
/ excuse. Motivated people don't do that.

Exactly. Even in the worst conditions, there is a way out. It may not
be easy, but you are always in control of your situation in life.
Those with willpower will get out. I just can't see a character with a
willpower of 6 living on the streets, surviving from day to day, and
consigning himself to that fate. I can see a person raised in the
streets developing a high willpower and getting out (to become a
shadowrunner). I can see a person with a high willpower being
momentarily lowered to street life (a corp torching their house and
killing their contacts and family), but it won't last.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Moving Up
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:06:00 -0400
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, David Buehrer wrote:

->Tim Kerby wrote:
->/
->/ On 18 Aug 98, at 11:59, XaOs wrote:
->/
<snip family history>
->
->/ I know people who have, and they agree with David. Blaming your
->/ situation for your problems is living in denial, and looking for an
->/ excuse. Motivated people don't do that.
->
->Exactly. Even in the worst conditions, there is a way out. It may not
->be easy, but you are always in control of your situation in life.
->Those with willpower will get out. I just can't see a character with a
->willpower of 6 living on the streets, surviving from day to day, and
->consigning himself to that fate. I can see a person raised in the
->streets developing a high willpower and getting out (to become a
->shadowrunner). I can see a person with a high willpower being
->momentarily lowered to street life (a corp torching their house and
->killing their contacts and family), but it won't last.

You are assuming they wish to leave the streets. For some, being
the big fish in a small pond is better than to be a little fish in a big
ocean. Having willpower means not giving up. But in order to succeed you
must possess skills. You can be as stubborn and strong-willed as my
grandmother (who is meaner than Hell when she wants to be) but without
being able to sell yourself (Charisma / Etiquette), possessing skills to
do the job (Insert fave skill here), and the opportunity (Insert Karma
Pool for luck) you won't make it off the streets. This coming from one
who (very stupidly) ran away for three years and tried to make it on the
streets on my own. It's not easy to get off, especially when you don't
think anyone wants you (Willpower does not automatically instill
self-confidence).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 3
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Moving Up
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:25:31 -0400
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, David Foster wrote:

<Snip>

> You are assuming they wish to leave the streets. For some, being
> the big fish in a small pond is better than to be a little fish in a big
> ocean. Having willpower means not giving up. But in order to succeed you
> must possess skills. You can be as stubborn and strong-willed as my
> grandmother (who is meaner than Hell when she wants to be) but without
> being able to sell yourself (Charisma / Etiquette), possessing skills to
> do the job (Insert fave skill here), and the opportunity (Insert Karma
> Pool for luck) you won't make it off the streets. This coming from one
> who (very stupidly) ran away for three years and tried to make it on the
> streets on my own. It's not easy to get off, especially when you don't
> think anyone wants you (Willpower does not automatically instill
> self-confidence).
>

Having listened to this thread all day, I thought I would add my two
cents. I agree with the paragraph above but don't think it goes far
enough. Of my last three characters with street origins, none has yet left
the streets. All of them have strong scores in both willpower and
intelligence.

One has a brother involved with a local gang. The brother
is afraid to leave the life he knows and is comfortable with, so my rabbit
shaman has maintined a low life style to be there for him. The ties of
family are more important than getting out (for now).

Another is young. Not being of legal age (and not having a CIN) makes it
very difficult to get a legitimate job or schooling. Admittedly, she
could sell her magically active soul to a Corp and get decent housing and
an education, but she likes her soul where it is. Better to just keep a
low profile for now and build the skills, knowledge, and finances she
will need to get a legal identity and a formal education when she is of
age(should she live so long).

The third case is a bit different. A wealthy retired shadowrunner, who has
settled down to raise a family. The gang ties are still strong here and
this runner used the wealth and contacts acquired during several years of
running to improve the entire neighbor hood and make it a decent place to
raise a family. (It's the only gang around with a medical plan and day
care)

This third case (if you ignore the amount of good this runner did) is the
closest to reality. In my country (USA) the segment of the population
that gives the highest percentage of their income away is the poor.
Why, you ask when they need the money to get out? Because they aren't
immune to the fact that people they know personally need help. Most
people will not put aside cash to move themselves into a bettter
neighborhood and watch a child next door starve to death while they are
doing it. (Yes, I know the genre is cyberpunk and caring about others
doesn't fit the genre, but it is human nature. We can ignore the starving
at a distance, but when they are in front of you it is harder to ignore
the need in favor of "self-improvement".

To summerize I think that there are many more reasons for not leaving a
bad neighborhood than those listed. A lack of will or intellegence may not
be the problem, the presence of compassion or loyalty might.

- Kama
Message no. 4
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: Moving Up
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:36:16 EDT
Some don't want to leave the street life. It is a place they are comfortable
with and a place where they make their own rules. The fact is, you won't find
alot of cops in the places that need it most. The strongest make what little
rules there are. A professional shadowrunner would be one of those rulemakers.
Message no. 5
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: Moving Up
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:08:22 EDT
Keeping a low profile is highly important to a shadowrunner. In Redmond people
aren't inclined to be concerned about why a man seems to only go to work at
night and only on occasion. That would be a topic of neighborhood gossip in
most places in Bellvue. Another thing is, one of the reasons that crime is so
rampant in poorer neighborhoods is people tend not to call the police about
things. In general people tend to mind their own business in poor
neighborhoods.

Further Reading

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