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Message no. 1
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Mr. Broadwater and some other things
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 11:29:34 -0500
>A Halliwell wrote:
>|
>||> He's not a cyber zombie you twit! He doesn't need to go negative on the
>||> essence scale. God you're slow.
>||>
>||
>||Good roleplay earns delta grade Level 4 MBW?!?!
Good role playing can help you get good stuff. Yeah, that's really
powerful, but does good roleplaying earn you initiate grade 10?

>||"God you're slow"? Nice to see we have such enlightened
>||thinkers here with us.
I've already mentioned that you don't need to be cyber zombied to get MBW4.
If I hadn't, perhaps I would have felt more charitable.

>Yeah...but just when you're all set to thwap him, he contributes a well
>thought out post. Not that I enjoy it when he get abusive, but it's
>balancing out so far (IMHO) :)
>
>-David
>
Thanks David.

Now, I have something I'd like to say to a few people on this list. No one
specifically, but a lot of people generally. If you think I'm speaking of
you, then I probably am.

I am sick and tired of so many people on this list complaining about
munchkins. Yeah, I've been called a munchkin at times, and I've always felt
inclined to defend myself from such a slanderous term. Well, I've been
thinking lately, all those times I've been called a munchkin by one person
or another, never once, looking back on the gaming, did I not have fun with
it. Sure, it was fun cause I had a pc who get kick some ass, or had a big
gun, or who could throw incredible spells and did really weird things. But
all those times, I was having fun. The people I gamed with never
complained, cause they had powerful characters and had fun. After a while,
you throw those characters aside, and move on to something new. You move to
lower powered stuff, or a different system with whatever, but you always try
to have fun. Well, that gets me to my main point, you may not like
munchkins, and you may not like munchkinism, but as long as the people
playing have fun, and the only way it effects you is because you hear about
it, what right do you have to complain? Basically, I'm sick and tired of
the fascist gamers out there who feel that if a game is more powerful than
what they're comfortable with, it's wrong. It's not how it was meant to be.
Well, guess what, it is. These stupid games that we spend our money on were
made for two reasons: 1) to make the companys that make them money, and 2).
so that the people buying them can have fun. Ok, Topcat, you enjoy your
detective campaign because it's real low power and dark. Thats cool, it
sounds great. But someone else is going to find it a drag. They want a
high power, high velocity, world shattering game. I fluctuate, sometimes I
like low power street level games where you get into the nitty gritty, and
other times, a like the higher powered "munchkin" games that some people
shun like the plague cause people are doing things and using equiptment that
are in the rules, but they don't feel you could ever "earn".

note: this is where I'll probably start offending people

Well, I say screw you. If you don't like the way I play, fine, don't play
with me. But don't turn up your nose like some tight ass arrogant snob who
thinks they're better because you "play the game how it was meant to be
played. I role-play. Therefore, I must be better than you." Bite me. I
have fun. Munchkins have fun. You have fun. Thats the important thing.
Not the methods they use to get there. No one forces you to play with them.
Stop trying to turn the gaming world into your fragging image. Stop yelling
munchkin at every idea you think is unbalanced.

"I'm may not agree with what he says, but I will defend to the death his
right to say it." - Voltaire i believe (if I'm wrong, oh well"

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 2
From: Robyn King-Nitschke <rking@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Broadwater and some other things
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:10:49 -0700
Mike Broadwater writes:

<A lot of stuff about power levels and having fun snipped
for brevity>

I agree with you, to a point. The whole aim of the game is to have
fun, and if your group (or anybody's group) enjoys playing a certain
way, that's fine. The "munchkin" label does get tossed around a lot;
IMHO sometimes it's valid, sometimes it isn't, but that's just my opinion.

But here's my little mini-rant, and this isn't directed at anybody, really.
It's just a phenomenon I've seen many times in many games, and I get
a little tired of it. I think it may be at the bottom of why I don't
care for very high-powered games.

A lot of folks (and I reiterate, this isn't aimed at anybody in particular,
or even anybody on this list) think that if their character is from a
high-powered game where all the bigtime toys are available and relatively
easy to get, this automatically makes the character somehow "better" than
a character from a low-powered game who doesn't have access to all this
wondrous stuff. I call this "12-year-old-boy syndrome", because that's
where I often see it manifested (the fact that I've known some 30-year-
old 12-year-old-boys, and also some female 12-year-old-boys, not to mention
some 12-year-old boys who *don't* fit this mold, notwithstanding...).

I have a character that I have spent six years working on. (Yes, our
campaign is somewhat "munchkinous" in that we've made it very difficult
to kill off a character without major stupidity.) He has a full background
from childhood, a fully-developed personality, and he is a load of fun
for me to play. He's a mage, but he's not an anything-level Initiate.
The other characters in our campaign don't have any alpha-level cyberware,
let along beta or delta. Nobody has any bioware, and the highest skill
among all the characters is (I think) Firearms 9, for our assassin.
But all these characters have histories, and lives, and stories. I would
defy any godlike 10th-level Initiate or Delta-cybered supersam to say
that they're "better" than our bunch because they can wipe up the floor with
us in a combat. So what? Who cares?

I think that's the flip-side of Mike's rant about "fascist gamers"--so
what if your game is high-powered and mine isn't? You're having fun and
I'm having fun, as Mike said. I have a much bigger problem with those
gamers who think that because they have big numbers on a page, they win
in all categories. Maybe they do--I'm sure there are plenty of high-powered
gamers out there who have spent the time to really flesh out, know, *live*
their characters. But I'm sure there are plenty who haven't too, and in my
book, that makes as much difference as godlike power.

Jeez, I did go on, didn't I? Not like this is a pet subject or anything,
huh? :)

--o'Rat


===========================================================
R. King-Nitschke "We are the music makers,
rking@********.com and we are the dreamers
Red Brick Systems, Inc. of the dreams."
(408) 399-3226 --Willy Wonka
Message no. 3
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Mr. Broadwater and some other things
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:38:44 -0500 (CDT)
I'm not going to post this at the end... I'm only attatching it for
reference.

Someone posted about five messages ago that Mr. Broadwater was known for
his long and well thought out posts... and lo and behold, we have one.
Despite anything else that might have been said about him or by him, this
post impressed me. I have to agree. I've played some pretty far
fetched, high power campaigns, and had a lot of fun. It wore thin after
a while, but I had a hoot none-the-less. The term "munchkin" never even
occured to me until I started reading the list... Nor did I ever see any
need to define it.


But I'm still gonna be a snot and say that I think 30 million nuyen worth
of hardware is a silly present for a corp to give away. ;)

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies


On Mon, 13 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >A Halliwell wrote:
> >|
> >||> He's not a cyber zombie you twit! He doesn't need to go negative on the
> >||> essence scale. God you're slow.
> >||>
> >||
> >||Good roleplay earns delta grade Level 4 MBW?!?!
> Good role playing can help you get good stuff. Yeah, that's really
> powerful, but does good roleplaying earn you initiate grade 10?
>
> >||"God you're slow"? Nice to see we have such enlightened
> >||thinkers here with us.
> I've already mentioned that you don't need to be cyber zombied to get MBW4.
> If I hadn't, perhaps I would have felt more charitable.
>
> >Yeah...but just when you're all set to thwap him, he contributes a well
> >thought out post. Not that I enjoy it when he get abusive, but it's
> >balancing out so far (IMHO) :)
> >
> >-David
> >
> Thanks David.
>
> Now, I have something I'd like to say to a few people on this list. No one
> specifically, but a lot of people generally. If you think I'm speaking of
> you, then I probably am.
>
> I am sick and tired of so many people on this list complaining about
> munchkins. Yeah, I've been called a munchkin at times, and I've always felt
> inclined to defend myself from such a slanderous term. Well, I've been
> thinking lately, all those times I've been called a munchkin by one person
> or another, never once, looking back on the gaming, did I not have fun with
> it. Sure, it was fun cause I had a pc who get kick some ass, or had a big
> gun, or who could throw incredible spells and did really weird things. But
> all those times, I was having fun. The people I gamed with never
> complained, cause they had powerful characters and had fun. After a while,
> you throw those characters aside, and move on to something new. You move to
> lower powered stuff, or a different system with whatever, but you always try
> to have fun. Well, that gets me to my main point, you may not like
> munchkins, and you may not like munchkinism, but as long as the people
> playing have fun, and the only way it effects you is because you hear about
> it, what right do you have to complain? Basically, I'm sick and tired of
> the fascist gamers out there who feel that if a game is more powerful than
> what they're comfortable with, it's wrong. It's not how it was meant to be.
> Well, guess what, it is. These stupid games that we spend our money on were
> made for two reasons: 1) to make the companys that make them money, and 2).
> so that the people buying them can have fun. Ok, Topcat, you enjoy your
> detective campaign because it's real low power and dark. Thats cool, it
> sounds great. But someone else is going to find it a drag. They want a
> high power, high velocity, world shattering game. I fluctuate, sometimes I
> like low power street level games where you get into the nitty gritty, and
> other times, a like the higher powered "munchkin" games that some people
> shun like the plague cause people are doing things and using equiptment that
> are in the rules, but they don't feel you could ever "earn".
>
> note: this is where I'll probably start offending people
>
> Well, I say screw you. If you don't like the way I play, fine, don't play
> with me. But don't turn up your nose like some tight ass arrogant snob who
> thinks they're better because you "play the game how it was meant to be
> played. I role-play. Therefore, I must be better than you." Bite me. I
> have fun. Munchkins have fun. You have fun. Thats the important thing.
> Not the methods they use to get there. No one forces you to play with them.
> Stop trying to turn the gaming world into your fragging image. Stop yelling
> munchkin at every idea you think is unbalanced.
>
> "I'm may not agree with what he says, but I will defend to the death his
> right to say it." - Voltaire i believe (if I'm wrong, oh well"
>
> Mike Broadwater
> http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
> "You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
> tape to make them stop."
>
>
Message no. 4
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Mr. Broadwater and some other things
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:33:45 -0500
>But I'm still gonna be a snot and say that I think 30 million nuyen worth
>of hardware is a silly present for a corp to give away. ;)
I never said he just got it for nothing. Sheesh! Of course 30 mil is a
little much to give away (even if they can get it at cost :) But your
making assumptions without knowing the whole story.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 5
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mr. Broadwater and some other things
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:55:33 -0500
>[*snip*]...Basically, I'm sick and tired of
>the fascist gamers out there who feel that if a game is more powerful than
>what they're comfortable with, it's wrong. It's not how it was meant to be.

Now I have to disagree, it was a good streak too. Munchkinism is going
outside the rules or conventions of the game. When characters become 10th
grade vampire physical magicians that runs six delta clinics while saving
the world or breaking into Arcologies for pocket change, then there's
munchkinism. So there's that.

>Well, guess what, it is. These stupid games that we spend our money on were
>made for two reasons: 1) to make the companys that make them money, and 2).
>so that the people buying them can have fun. Ok, Topcat, you enjoy your
>detective campaign because it's real low power and dark. Thats cool, it
>sounds great. But someone else is going to find it a drag. They want a
>high power, high velocity, world shattering game.

*gasps and chokes*

True, some people like the earth-shattering plots, no pay, high power, Elven
Illuminati game. I don't. I had too much of that back in my D&D days. I
enjoy darker literature and movies, so I fall into darker games easier. A
game doesn't necessarily have to be low-power to be dark though. I would
play/run a dark, mid-high power campaign just as happily. For a detective
campaign that is fairly new, low-power works perfectly.

>I fluctuate, sometimes I
>like low power street level games where you get into the nitty gritty, and
>other times, a like the higher powered "munchkin" games that some people
>shun like the plague cause people are doing things and using equiptment that
>are in the rules, but they don't feel you could ever "earn".

Then it isn't munchkin, it may not even be powergaming. When you start
inventing things that unbalance the game, then it's munchkin. When your
characters skills/stats/spells/equipment are min/max'd for the most dice at
least cost, it's powergaming (which can be unbalancing). If everything in
the campaign is of unbelievable power, then everything's balanced. If
everything's munchkin, then it's no longer Shadowrun but some bastard
offspring of the game. Which is ok, as long as you can admit that and
everything is around that power-level (it becomes balanced and no longe
rmunchkin). It's just when a campaign is unbalanced (overpowered characters
vs. underpowered opposition or the other way around) that I start
getting...riled.


-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 6
From: Ken <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: Mr. Broadwater and some other things
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >But I'm still gonna be a snot and say that I think 30 million nuyen worth
> >of hardware is a silly present for a corp to give away. ;)
> I never said he just got it for nothing. Sheesh! Of course 30 mil is a
> little much to give away (even if they can get it at cost :) But your
> making assumptions without knowing the whole story.
>
Besides, the price is retail. If the corp makes it, it may be able buy
it at cost, which could run from 10% to 90% depending on the mark-up.

Nutcracker
Message no. 7
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Broadwater and some other things
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 08:16:35 -0500 (CDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >But I'm still gonna be a snot and say that I think 30 million nuyen worth
> >of hardware is a silly present for a corp to give away. ;)
> I never said he just got it for nothing. Sheesh! Of course 30 mil is a
> little much to give away (even if they can get it at cost :) But your
> making assumptions without knowing the whole story.
>

That's true... though I didn't realize I'd made that assumption till
_after_ I left... =)

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Mr. Broadwater and some other things, you may also be interested in:

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