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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Multi-Ammo gun (Was: Odd Ammo Question)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:17:35 -0500
On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:07:43 -0700 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
>: For a slightly different ammo question - given the variety of
>:ammo in SR, and the variety of different types of targets for which
>:they're designed, it seems to me as though SOMEONE would have designed
>:a weapon with multiple clips, and a selector switch to choose between
>:them. Especially for a smartgun - change the ammo you're firing on the
>:fly, without removing a clip and putting in a new one. Might look a
>:little weird, but I don't think it'd be impossible to engineer.

> Difficult, and more prone to jam, but not impossible. Almost any
>multiple clip or magazine design I can envision would require you to
>choose what the next round will be when firing the current one, or to
>manually "cock" the gun (which ejects the round in the chamber, if any,
>just as firing would). Revolvers would be an exemption- a simple motor
on
>the cylinder could advance it to any round. And don't even mess
withbelts.

Okay, here's something I was working on but hadn't posted yet because the
only name I could think of was a pun based on the source of inspiration
...

Colt Mister Law
Type Conceal Ammo Mode Damage Weight Avail. Cost St. Ind. Legal RC
Heavy 5 8/8(c) SA 8M* 2.5 6/4 days 1,500 1.5 5P-E -
*I'm not sure if this accurately represents the smaller ammunition. (And
for the record, this would be the "cannon" damage code, not the house
rule some of us have adopted.) Would the damage code increase or
decrease with the smaller round?
This weapon uses special smaller the normal caseless ammunition in order
to fit the equivelent two clips into the grip of the gun. The special
ammo is available in all normal ammo types at x2 price (This includes the
cost of caseless ammunition.), +2 to availability target number, and x2
to base availability time. The special clips (again x2 price) actually
are two clips joined side-by-side. A sliding plate blocks one clip while
ammo from the other is being loaded. Selecting from which clip the NEXT
round will be loaded is a Simple Action or a Free Action if the gun is
smartlinked. As an additional safety mechanism, the plate can be locked
in the middle preventing any further rounds from being loaded.

Did I forget anything?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

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Message no. 2
From: Amanda Sideswipe <lo_jack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Multi-Ammo gun (Was: Odd Ammo Question)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:15:08 PDT
>On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:07:43 -0700 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
>writes:
<Snip "how to" background>
>Okay, here's something I was working on but hadn't posted yet because
the
>only name I could think of was a pun based on the source of inspiration
>...
>
>Colt Mister Law
>Type Conceal Ammo Mode Damage Weight Avail. Cost St. Ind. Legal
RC
>Heavy 5 8/8(c) SA 8M* 2.5 6/4 days 1,500 1.5 5P-E -
>*I'm not sure if this accurately represents the smaller ammunition.
(And
>for the record, this would be the "cannon" damage code, not the house
>rule some of us have adopted.) Would the damage code increase or
>decrease with the smaller round?

IMHO depends on the ammo. APDS-style rounds would probably get
better penetration and therefore damage.
Roundnose/hollowpoint/wadcutter rounds would have a lower damage code
(smaller wound channel) and frag bullets would staythe same or go down
(I'm not sure on this one)

>This weapon uses special smaller the normal caseless ammunition in
order
>to fit the equivelent two clips into the grip of the gun.

Assuming that the ammo is not cut down too much, this will be a thick
grip. Women, short-fingered archtypes (dwarves) and small men will
probably have a hard time holding this gun. elves (since they seem to
have long fingers) shouldn't have a problem.

>The special ammo is available in all normal ammo types at x2 price
>(This includes the cost of caseless ammunition.), +2 to availability
>target number, and x2 to base availability time.

Why not just use lightpistol ammo? It's readily available and should
be a bunch smaller than HeavyPistol Ammo (compare a 10mm round to a .22
or even a .38) and would probably be lighter than special Heavy Pistol
ammo. This would also solve the damage question. JMHO.

>The special clips (again x2 price) actually
>are two clips joined side-by-side. A sliding plate blocks one clip
while
>ammo from the other is being loaded. Selecting from which clip the
NEXT
>round will be loaded is a Simple Action or a Free Action if the gun is
>smartlinked. As an additional safety mechanism, the plate can be
locked
>in the middle preventing any further rounds from being loaded.
>
>Did I forget anything?

I am a firm beleiver in KISS stragtey. Gun with green grips has APDS,
Gun with Red/yellow grips has explosive. Street Samurai usually have no
problem carrying two pistols and lotsa clips. This gun is for those
people who want lotsa flexiblity and can't look like an armory.

Other than that I figure I'll throw in my nuyen on the thread...

Side-by-side shotguns solve the problem with seperate barrels and
chambers for ammo, easy swiching between them. Taking this one step
further get 2 autoloading Shotguns, same model with oppsite ejection
ports (righties and Lefties), attach the 2 together, modify the grip and
trigger for a switch between the two firing mechs. Sabot in one and
buckshot in the other. Rifles and SMG's could work on the same
principle.

As to alternating ammo in a normal clip I would shoot 1 shell at a
time. IE Glaser Safety Slug alternated with Teflon AP (for an extreme
example). Glaser has no armor petetrating ablity, but tears up flesh
and has truly lethal stopping power. Teflon AP OTOH is great for
shooting through armor, walls, doors, people... But just keeps going!
Very little stopping power but tons of penetration. In a 1/1 clip
(Glaser/AP in equal amounts) I would shoot 1 shell out at a time hoping
that the AP would take down any armored targets and the Glaser would
either splatter on their armor or drop the target.


>--
>D. Ghost
>(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
>o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my
wife
>left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>


Amanda Sideswipe
-----------------
"Bomb deactivatior. Crack dealer. SWAT rifleman. My job
will kill you faster than any of these. And won't just kill
you; it'll crush you to a pulpy clot on the streets of San
Francisco. It pays fifteen bucks a pop and gets you a rush
like no drug ever made.
"I am a bike messenger.
"On rollerblades."
*The Ultimate Rush*, Joe Quirk


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Message no. 3
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Multi-Ammo gun (Was: Odd Ammo Question)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:53:12 -0500
On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:15:08 PDT Amanda Sideswipe <lo_jack@*******.COM>
writes:
I <Dghost@****.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>>*I'm not sure if this accurately represents the smaller ammunition.
(And
>>for the record, this would be the "cannon" damage code, not the house
>>rule some of us have adopted.) Would the damage code increase or
>>decrease with the smaller round?

> IMHO depends on the ammo. APDS-style rounds would probably get
>better penetration and therefore damage.
> Roundnose/hollowpoint/wadcutter rounds would have a lower damage code
>(smaller wound channel) and frag bullets would staythe same or go down
>(I'm not sure on this one)

Well, I gave it an 8M damage code because the round is a small enough
diameter that two columns can fit in the clip ... that means smaller
surface area which means less friction. Combined with the same powder
charge to bullet mass ratio, should provide a nasty intial velocity. The
problem is that I don't know if that will be enough to compensate for the
mass loss.

>>This weapon uses special smaller the normal caseless ammunition inorder
>>to fit the equivelent two clips into the grip of the gun.

>Assuming that the ammo is not cut down too much, this will be a thick
>grip. Women, short-fingered archtypes (dwarves) and small men will
>probably have a hard time holding this gun. elves (since they seem to
>have long fingers) shouldn't have a problem.

Well, there are already clips that use a system where the clip is wider
than the bullet and the bullets follow a jagged path ... (sorry, I can't
think of a better decsription ...) I think the Browning High Power uses
this (with 9mm ammo). There shouldn't be a problem making the grip
normal size (IMO).

>>The special ammo is available in all normal ammo types at x2 price
>>(This includes the cost of caseless ammunition.), +2 to availability
>>target number, and x2 to base availability time.

> Why not just use lightpistol ammo? It's readily available and should
>be a bunch smaller than HeavyPistol Ammo (compare a 10mm round to a .22
>or even a .38) and would probably be lighter than special Heavy Pistol
>ammo. This would also solve the damage question. JMHO.

The idea was to maintain the M damage code. Additionally, NAGtRL (In the
Morrissey Elite entry) implies that Light pistols can't use special ammo.

<SNIP>
>Other than that I figure I'll throw in my nuyen on the thread...
>
>Side-by-side shotguns solve the problem with seperate barrels and
>chambers for ammo, easy swiching between them. Taking this one step
>further get 2 autoloading Shotguns, same model with oppsite ejection
>ports (righties and Lefties), attach the 2 together, modify the grip and
>trigger for a switch between the two firing mechs. Sabot in one and
>buckshot in the other. Rifles and SMG's could work on the same
>principle.
<SNIP>

And how much will that WEIGH? It'll be a bit unwieldy I'm sure ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 4
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Multi-Ammo gun (Was: Odd Ammo Question)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:32:13 -0700
D. Ghost wrote:

> >>This weapon uses special smaller the normal caseless ammunition inorder
> >>to fit the equivelent two clips into the grip of the gun.
>
> >Assuming that the ammo is not cut down too much, this will be a thick
> >grip. Women, short-fingered archtypes (dwarves) and small men will
> >probably have a hard time holding this gun. elves (since they seem to
> >have long fingers) shouldn't have a problem.
>
> Well, there are already clips that use a system where the clip is wider
> than the bullet and the bullets follow a jagged path ... (sorry, I can't
> think of a better decsription ...) I think the Browning High Power uses
> this (with 9mm ammo). There shouldn't be a problem making the grip
> normal size (IMO).

We have always just called them "side by side" mags. I have absolutely no
idea if this is accurate or not, but that's what we call 'em. :)As for the
size though I have fired a few Glocks with these type of magazines without
ans difficulty, but my friends sisters both have a hard time getting a good
grip on the weapon due to the large grip. Now if the mag was designed for
two clips side by side plus the switching plate in between I think that it
would definitely be a size problem for smaller ppl.

> <SNIP>
> >Other than that I figure I'll throw in my nuyen on the thread...
> >
> >Side-by-side shotguns solve the problem with seperate barrels and
> >chambers for ammo, easy swiching between them. Taking this one step
> >further get 2 autoloading Shotguns, same model with oppsite ejection
> >ports (righties and Lefties), attach the 2 together, modify the grip and
> >trigger for a switch between the two firing mechs. Sabot in one and
> >buckshot in the other. Rifles and SMG's could work on the same
> >principle.
> <SNIP>
>
> And how much will that WEIGH? It'll be a bit unwieldy I'm sure ...

No kidding. Plus I don't want to be there when you try and launch a burst
out of each barrel and absorb the kick. I know that your design is intended
for that, but I also know that someone is going to try it. :)


Caric
Message no. 5
From: Amanda Sideswipe <lo_jack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Multi-Ammo gun (Was: Odd Ammo Question)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:06:55 PDT
>
>On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:15:08 PDT Amanda Sideswipe <lo_jack@*******.COM>
>writes:
>I <Dghost@****.com> wrote:
><SNIP>
>>>*I'm not sure if this accurately represents the smaller ammunition.
>(And
>>>for the record, this would be the "cannon" damage code, not the
house
>>>rule some of us have adopted.) Would the damage code increase or
>>>decrease with the smaller round?
>
>> IMHO depends on the ammo. APDS-style rounds would probably get
>>better penetration and therefore damage.
>> Roundnose/hollowpoint/wadcutter rounds would have a lower damage
code
>>(smaller wound channel) and frag bullets would staythe same or go down
>>(I'm not sure on this one)
>
>Well, I gave it an 8M damage code because the round is a small enough
>diameter that two columns can fit in the clip ... that means smaller
>surface area which means less friction. Combined with the same powder
>charge to bullet mass ratio, should provide a nasty intial velocity.
The
>problem is that I don't know if that will be enough to compensate for
the
>mass loss.

Great way to make tumbling bullets...
APDS would certainly work better with a long powder charge, HP and and
teflon would suffer IMHO

>>>This weapon uses special smaller the normal caseless ammunition
inorder
>>>to fit the equivelent two clips into the grip of the gun.
>
>>Assuming that the ammo is not cut down too much, this will be a thick
>>grip. Women, short-fingered archtypes (dwarves) and small men will
>>probably have a hard time holding this gun. elves (since they seem to
>>have long fingers) shouldn't have a problem.
>
>Well, there are already clips that use a system where the clip is wider
>than the bullet and the bullets follow a jagged path ... (sorry, I
can't
>think of a better decsription ...) I think the Browning High Power uses
>this (with 9mm ammo). There shouldn't be a problem making the grip
>normal size (IMO).

Staggered is the word, and those are the clips that are "thick gripped"
and can be diffulcult to hold. In the dual clip, you will have to have
2 straight rows to keep the width down, 2 staggered rows would make the
grip impossible. if you tried to stagger the individual rows together
to cut down even more, you get a lot of feed jams.

>>>The special ammo is available in all normal ammo types at x2 price
>>>(This includes the cost of caseless ammunition.), +2 to availability
>>>target number, and x2 to base availability time.
>
>> Why not just use lightpistol ammo? It's readily available and should
>>be a bunch smaller than HeavyPistol Ammo (compare a 10mm round to a
.22
>>or even a .38) and would probably be lighter than special Heavy Pistol
>>ammo. This would also solve the damage question. JMHO.
>
>The idea was to maintain the M damage code. Additionally, NAGtRL (In
the
>Morrissey Elite entry) implies that Light pistols can't use special
ammo.

Haven't read it (looking for a copy though...) but the first SR novel I
read (Damn I can't remember the name, first of that triolgy with the
Shaman who uses Narcojects nearly exclusively) a charecter loaded a
backup pistol with APDS. IRL .22s can be hollowpoint, wadcutter, etc...
IMO explosive rounds wouldn't be a good idea 8-). Personally I'd allow
Lt Pistol rounds to take special rounds.
Possibly modified LtPistol rounds with a long powder charge... for
that extra punch you were speaking of.

><SNIP>
>>Other than that I figure I'll throw in my nuyen on the thread...
>>
>>Side-by-side shotguns solve the problem with seperate barrels and
>>chambers for ammo, easy swiching between them. Taking this one step
>>further get 2 autoloading Shotguns, same model with oppsite ejection
>>ports (righties and Lefties), attach the 2 together, modify the grip
and
>>trigger for a switch between the two firing mechs. Sabot in one and
>>buckshot in the other. Rifles and SMG's could work on the same
>>principle.
><SNIP>
>
>And how much will that WEIGH? It'll be a bit unwieldy I'm sure ...
On the shotguns yeah, but nothing Muscle Aug or Replacement couldn't
handle, even normally strong people could use it (str 4+)

M-16s are light, 2 of 'em would be heavy, but less so than an LMG, mercs
and Sammies carry those regulary.
Use of short barrels and polymers are helpful in reducing weight. And
2 small SMGs would be lighter than a long rifle. Small price to pay for
the availablity IMSO (in my samurai's opinion). Also half as much
reloading and more up time.
Another SMG solution is two separate clips, like a Sten Gun but on both
sides, and a swich between the two. No more diffulcult in size or
weight then a crossbow.

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Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Multi-Ammo gun (Was: Odd Ammo Question)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:51:40 -0500
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:32:13 -0700 Caric <caric@********.COM> writes:
>D. Ghost wrote:
>> >>This weapon uses special smaller the normal caseless ammunition
inorder
>> >>to fit the equivelent two clips into the grip of the gun.

<SNIP>

>We have always just called them "side by side" mags. I have absolutely
no
>idea if this is accurate or not, but that's what we call 'em. :)As for
the
>size though I have fired a few Glocks with these type of magazines
without
>ans difficulty, but my friends sisters both have a hard time getting a
good
>grip on the weapon due to the large grip. Now if the mag was designed
for
>two clips side by side plus the switching plate in between I think that
it
>would definitely be a size problem for smaller ppl.
<SNIP>

Ack. We're missing each other ... look at the first line you left
quoted. the grip wouldn't be any thicker than the Glock you mentioned
because it uses smaller ammo.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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