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Message no. 1
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Multiple opponents question
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:19:59 +0200
A fun one...

Mr. Chromelord stands in an alley, grinning. Six gangers is in front of him.
The gangers go first - he spent his action flexing his muscles at them.

The first attacks. Both has TN 4, the ganger rolls skill 4 + 3 cpool.
Mr C spends only his skill, 18 dice, not bothering with his 60 dice cpool
just yet. (Yep, this is purely theorethical.). The ganger gets 5 successes,
Mr. C gets 18. (Yup, an NPC). Mr. C rips the ganger's head off and throws
it at ganger #2, who is knocked unconscious.
Ganger 3 attacks.
What is his target number? What is Mr. C's target number?

Rune Fostervoll, runefo@***.uio.no
----------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 2
From: Christian Werner <i21axray@*******.RZ.UNIBW-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:47:08 +0200
> A fun one...

> Mr. Chromelord stands in an alley, grinning. Six gangers is in front of
> him.
> The gangers go first - he spent his action flexing his muscles at them.

> The first attacks. Both has TN 4, the ganger rolls skill 4 + 3 cpool.
> Mr C spends only his skill, 18 dice, not bothering with his 60 dice cpool
> just yet. (Yep, this is purely theorethical.). The ganger gets 5
> successes,
> Mr. C gets 18. (Yup, an NPC). Mr. C rips the ganger's head off and throws
> it at ganger #2, who is knocked unconscious.
> Ganger 3 attacks.
> What is his target number? What is Mr. C's target number?

> Rune Fostervoll, runefo@***.uio.no
> ----------------------------------
> ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
> -Ambrose Bierce

I would say, that in this case, as the other opponents are disabled, it is
also 4.



Ciao Christian
Message no. 3
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:24:00 MST
>Mr. Chromelord stands in an alley, grinning. Six gangers is in front of
him.
>The gangers go first - he spent his action flexing his muscles at them.

Is flexing your muscles a complex action? ;-).

>The first attacks. Both has TN 4, the ganger rolls skill 4 + 3 cpool.
>Mr C spends only his skill, 18 dice, not bothering with his 60 dice cpool
>just yet. (Yep, this is purely theorethical.). The ganger gets 5 successes,
>Mr. C gets 18. (Yup, an NPC). Mr. C rips the ganger's head off and throws
>it at ganger #2, who is knocked unconscious.
>Ganger 3 attacks.
>What is his target number? What is Mr. C's target number?
>
>Rune Fostervoll, runefo@***.uio.no

The only situational modifiers are the bonus/penalty for having buddies in
combat. +/- 1 for each buddy, 4 max. So Mr. C has TN of 4+4=8, and
gangboys have TN 4-4=0=>2. Right? Am I missing your point?


Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 11:04:53 +0100
Rune Fostervoll said on 13:19/25 Apr 97...

> The first attacks. Both has TN 4, the ganger rolls skill 4 + 3 cpool.
> Mr C

I thought he was a shaman? :)

> spends only his skill, 18 dice, not bothering with his 60 dice cpool
> just yet. (Yep, this is purely theorethical.). The ganger gets 5 successes,
> Mr. C gets 18. (Yup, an NPC). Mr. C rips the ganger's head off and throws
> it at ganger #2, who is knocked unconscious.
> Ganger 3 attacks.
> What is his target number? What is Mr. C's target number?

In this situation, I'd say everyone has a TN of four (assuming no Reach
differences or wounds on either side), since Mr. C is done with each
ganger before the next one attacks.

OTOH, if two or more of the gangers get the same initiative, or one
survives Mr. C's first attack on him somehow, the Friends In Melee
modifier comes into play, giving the gangers a -1 TN per friend, and Mr. C
a +1 per ganger.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I just know that something good is going to happen.
I don't know when...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Loki <gamemstr@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:07:13 -0700
> Mr. Chromelord stands in an alley, grinning. Six gangers is in front of
him.
> The gangers go first - he spent his action flexing his muscles at them.
>
> The first attacks. Both has TN 4, the ganger rolls skill 4 + 3 cpool.
> Mr C spends only his skill, 18 dice, not bothering with his 60 dice cpool
> just yet. (Yep, this is purely theorethical.). The ganger gets 5
successes,
> Mr. C gets 18. (Yup, an NPC). Mr. C rips the ganger's head off and throws
> it at ganger #2, who is knocked unconscious.
> Ganger 3 attacks.
> What is his target number? What is Mr. C's target number?

I'd say ganger T#4 and Chromey T#4. Seeing as how the other two gangers are
currently disabled and not enganged in melee. Now if this third ganger
connects or is even hit in a counterattack, whether or not either of them
takes damage, and niether goes staggering out of melee range...the FOURTH
ganger will get the frined in melee advantage. Was that clear as mud?

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke


Poisoned Elves http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
Message no. 6
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 02:05:24 +0200
>>The gangers go first - he spent his action flexing his muscles at them.
>Is flexing your muscles a complex action? ;-).
In this case, yep - he can's chew gum and walk at the same time.

>The only situational modifiers are the bonus/penalty for having buddies in
>combat. +/- 1 for each buddy, 4 max. So Mr. C has TN of 4+4=8, and
>gangboys have TN 4-4=0=>2. Right? Am I missing your point?
Yes and no - the other reply I got was that he has tn 4, since he's in a
one - on - one situation with the next guy.

The problem, of course, is that none of the other gangers has declared
that they'll go into melee with him - they're standing some (quickenss)
yards off, and there's no guarantee they'll close to melee, but rather shoot
him or something, so it would not be correct to give the ganger
'friends in melee'.

But what about the guy that attacked before? Okay, he's dead, so he's not
a friend in melee either...

But the conclusion from going blindly by the rules is that Mr. C could kill
600 gangers in one second in unarmed combat (Or the number that can be
comfortably stacked around him.).

So I was wondering how other GM's handle that situation.
(I'm using a +2 tn for Mr. C as a 'distraction/attacking multiple opponents'
for each previous attack that turn, but no bonus for the attacker, if anyone
was wondering.).

Rune Fostervoll, runefo@***.uio.no
----------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 7
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 20:49:09 EDT
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:19:59 +0200 Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
writes:
>A fun one...

Oh, goody!

>Mr. Chromelord stands in an alley, grinning. Six gangers is in front
>of him.
>The gangers go first - he spent his action flexing his muscles at
>them.

And an action well spent if I do say so myself :)

>The first attacks. Both has TN 4, the ganger rolls skill 4 + 3 cpool.
>Mr C spends only his skill, 18 dice, not bothering with his 60 dice
>cpool
>just yet. (Yep, this is purely theorethical.). The ganger gets 5
>successes,
>Mr. C gets 18. (Yup, an NPC). Mr. C rips the ganger's head off and
>throws
>it at ganger #2, who is knocked unconscious.
>Ganger 3 attacks.
>What is his target number? What is Mr. C's target number?

Wouldn't you say the Gangers have to make a willpower test first to see
if they whizz in their pants, if not how bout one to see if they run off
screaming like little girly men.? I would guess that if the Ganger was
attacking Mr. C, mano e mano, then both of their TN's would be four,
barring anything else you haven't told us like smoke, or other vision
impairments. If all 4 gangers attack Mr. C then he would have a TN of 7
(4+ three more gangers after the first) and the gangers would have a TN
of 2.


----------
The useless fact of the day is:
Can mammals see color? No, most are colorblind.
Message no. 8
From: Amper <amper@****.DATANET.HU>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 17:07:43 +0200
>Rune Fostervoll wrote:
>
> A fun one...
>
> Mr. Chromelord stands in an alley, grinning. Six gangers is in front of him.
> The gangers go first - he spent his action flexing his muscles at them.
>
> The first attacks. Both has TN 4, the ganger rolls skill 4 + 3 cpool.
> Mr C spends only his skill, 18 dice, not bothering with his 60 dice cpool
> just yet. (Yep, this is purely theorethical.). The ganger gets 5 successes,
> Mr. C gets 18. (Yup, an NPC). Mr. C rips the ganger's head off and throws
> it at ganger #2, who is knocked unconscious.
> Ganger 3 attacks.
> What is his target number? What is Mr. C's target number?

Mr. C. has a TN5 vs. the first guy, because he fights two ganger, and a
TN7 vs. the second guy, because he is the second target (and -x by the
reach, if the first guy is a big guy. :) ) The two gangers have a TN3
(4-1). While the other gangers don't attack Mr. C, and Mr. C doesn't
attack them, they aren't 'Friends in Combat'.
If the attack was success vs. the guy #2, he can't attack Mr. C, and Mr.
C has a TN5 vs. the ganger #3 (4 + 1 by 'Friends in combat'(#1)), and #3
has TN3. Other way he has a TN6 (4+2 by 'Friends in Combat'(#1,#2)), and
#3 has TN2.
--
,--\/----\/----\/----\/----\/-,
l / l
l AmpeR by Hungary /_ l
l Programmer & RPG player / l
l amper@****.datanet.hu / l
l \/ l
l_/\/\__/\/\__/\/\__/\/\__/\/\l
Message no. 9
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:26:09 GMT
Rune Fostervoll writes
>
> >The only situational modifiers are the bonus/penalty for having buddies in
> >combat. +/- 1 for each buddy, 4 max. So Mr. C has TN of 4+4=8, and
> >gangboys have TN 4-4=0=>2. Right? Am I missing your point?
> Yes and no - the other reply I got was that he has tn 4, since he's in a
> one - on - one situation with the next guy.
>
> The problem, of course, is that none of the other gangers has declared
> that they'll go into melee with him - they're standing some (quickenss)
> yards off, and there's no guarantee they'll close to melee, but rather shoot
> him or something, so it would not be correct to give the ganger
> 'friends in melee'.
>
I agree that in the origonal situation the base TN each side should
be 4, dead and unconcious gangers don't count, neither do those who
have yet to close in.

> But what about the guy that attacked before? Okay, he's dead, so he's not
> a friend in melee either...
>
fine.

> But the conclusion from going blindly by the rules is that Mr. C could kill
> 600 gangers in one second in unarmed combat (Or the number that can be
> comfortably stacked around him.).
>
Assuming they are stupid enough yes. There is an easy solution, habe
the first ganger or two delay action till his friends act, they then
all move in at once, goodbye Mr sammie goodbye :)

> So I was wondering how other GM's handle that situation.
Generally by having them delay actions then 3 make first attacks at
once so getting 2 friends n melee bonuses, when you need 2's and the
PC 6's the PC's karma pool dies fast rappidily followed by the
character unless assistance arrives or the character gets sensible.

> (I'm using a +2 tn for Mr. C as a 'distraction/attacking multiple opponents'
> for each previous attack that turn, but no bonus for the attacker, if anyone
> was wondering.).
>
Thats harsher than multiple opponents.

Mark
Message no. 10
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:20:05 -0500
Yes, CyberSam can mow through disorganized gangers, its true.

The correct strategy for the gangers is to DELAY their actions until the lowest of
their initiatives, then all attack simultaneously. This is deadly: TN of 8 for the sam,
0 for the gangers, sam's combat pool doesn't refresh between attacks.

I wouldn't let NPCs with a low professionalism rating do this, or at least not often.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 11
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:11:50 +1000
> >Mr. Chromelord stands in an alley, grinning. Six gangers is in front of
> him.
> >The gangers go first - he spent his action flexing his muscles at them.
>
> Is flexing your muscles a complex action? ;-).
>
Guess it depends on your intelligence. *grin*

Bleach
Message no. 12
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:16:46 +1000
> > What is his target number? What is Mr. C's target number?
>
> In this situation, I'd say everyone has a TN of four (assuming no Reach
> differences or wounds on either side), since Mr. C is done with each
> ganger before the next one attacks.
>
> OTOH, if two or more of the gangers get the same initiative, or one
> survives Mr. C's first attack on him somehow, the Friends In Melee
> modifier comes into play, giving the gangers a -1 TN per friend, and Mr. C
> a +1 per ganger.
>
I'd give Mr C. a 4 tn for the first attacker, and then apply an
increasing friends in melee penalty as the other gangers get their
attacks. Basically he can cream the first guy, but he gets pulled a
little off-balance, or out of position, making it easier for the next
ganger to hit him.

If you don't apply the friends in melee bonus unless you get identical
initiatives, there is no point in SR in ganging up on someone. (A tactic
that in real life is very effective)

Basically the cyberguy should go down like a sack of drek, under the
weight of dismembered limbs and rapidly cooling bodies of his opponents.

Bleach
Message no. 13
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:23:46 +1000
> I agree that in the origonal situation the base TN each side should
> be 4, dead and unconcious gangers don't count, neither do those who
> have yet to close in.
>
How short a time interval are you considering here???

Perhaps the friends in melee rule should be considered to apply as a
cumulative effect BETWEEN each of the persons actions, so each time you
get attacked during the 10 combat phases after your action, it gets
harder to resist/dodge etc.

> > But the conclusion from going blindly by the rules is that Mr. C could kill
> > 600 gangers in one second in unarmed combat (Or the number that can be
> > comfortably stacked around him.).
> >
> Assuming they are stupid enough yes. There is an easy solution, habe
> the first ganger or two delay action till his friends act, they then
> all move in at once, goodbye Mr sammie goodbye :)
>
Hear Hear!

The most stupid thing I've ever done as a player is take on four guys
with katanas while my character was barehanded (Phys Ad.).... Got sliced
an diced, until I pulled a heavy pistol and shot the leader between the
eyes. Of course, they all pulled guns too and my character went to hospital.

> > (I'm using a +2 tn for Mr. C as a 'distraction/attacking multiple opponents'
> > for each previous attack that turn, but no bonus for the attacker, if anyone
> > was wondering.).
> >
> Thats harsher than multiple opponents.
>
Very true, it's also not technically correct since he's not attacking as
such.... he's defending against an attack (most likely by putting his
spleen in front of a fist)

Bleach
Message no. 14
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:25:28 +1000
> The correct strategy for the gangers is to DELAY their actions until the lowest of
> their initiatives, then all attack simultaneously. This is deadly: TN of 8 for the
sam,
> 0 for the gangers, sam's combat pool doesn't refresh between attacks.
>
> I wouldn't let NPCs with a low professionalism rating do this, or at least not often.
>
Gangers that don't do that end up dead very, very quickly.... You'd asume
that this wasn't the first guy they'd tried to roll. (Though attacking a
guy with the aformentioned 18 skill ain't exactly smart)

BTW, minimum TN is 2.

Bleach
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:00:11 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 16:16/29 Apr 97...

> If you don't apply the friends in melee bonus unless you get identical
> initiatives, there is no point in SR in ganging up on someone. (A tactic
> that in real life is very effective)

I would, if the attackers survive long enough for the next one to join in.
If the sequence of actions is like this:

15: ganger 1 attacks & is killed
12: ganger 2 attacks & is killed
10: ganger 3 attacks & is killed
6: Mr. C kills ganger 4

I wouldn't give anyone any TN modifiers. However, if it were like this:

15: ganger 1 attacks & lives
12: ganger 2 attacks & lives
10: ganger 3 attacks & lives
6: Mr. C attacks ganger 4

then Mr. C would get a +3 TN modifier and the gangers a -3, because
they're all still there.

There's an important difference there, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
They said, "This is just the start."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 16
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 13:19:07 GMT
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD writes

> > I agree that in the origonal situation the base TN each side should
> > be 4, dead and unconcious gangers don't count, neither do those who
> > have yet to close in.
> >
> How short a time interval are you considering here???
>
We are getting pretty short.

> Perhaps the friends in melee rule should be considered to apply as a
> cumulative effect BETWEEN each of the persons actions, so each time you
> get attacked during the 10 combat phases after your action, it gets
> harder to resist/dodge etc.
>
That migh be better, certainly more realistic that the second ganger
may count his comrade as a friend even if the first is dead if the
target has not had an action inbetween though getting any more
complex than this is likely to do more harm to game playability than
benefit to reality

> > > But the conclusion from going blindly by the rules is that Mr. C could kill
> > > 600 gangers in one second in unarmed combat (Or the number that can be
> > > comfortably stacked around him.).
> > >
> > Assuming they are stupid enough yes. There is an easy solution,
> > have
> > the first ganger or two delay action till his friends act, they then
> > all move in at once, goodbye Mr sammie goodbye :)
> >
> Hear Hear!
>
> The most stupid thing I've ever done as a player is take on four guys
> with katanas while my character was barehanded (Phys Ad.).... Got sliced
> an diced, until I pulled a heavy pistol and shot the leader between the
> eyes.
I'd like to see you, +2TN per opponent in melee combat! oh yes +8 TN.
nice GM i guess.

> Of course, they all pulled guns too and my character went to
> hospital.
I doubt they needed them.
Against multiple opponents you are toast unless you can get an
initative high enough to flatten all but two of them before they act
or you have lots of body and lots of armour to make thier attacks
bounce harmlessly off. In which case they should try close contact
and tackle several to one or leave trolls twice thier size alone.

My prefered solution for embarressing 'tanks' is the large net gun
out of street sams catalouge. Apply rarely and they players might not
catch on to the TN8 to get out/dodge regardless of armour compared to
smartguns to hit semiauto fire.
Yamaha pulsar tasers also work a real treat, or on trolls who are TN5
escape from the large nets.

Mark
Message no. 17
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Multiple opponents question
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:59:12 +1000
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Gurth wrote:

> > If you don't apply the friends in melee bonus unless you get identical
> > initiatives, there is no point in SR in ganging up on someone. (A tactic
> > that in real life is very effective)
>
> I would, if the attackers survive long enough for the next one to join in.
> If the sequence of actions is like this:
>
> 15: ganger 1 attacks & is killed
> 12: ganger 2 attacks & is killed
> 10: ganger 3 attacks & is killed
> 6: Mr. C kills ganger 4
>
> I wouldn't give anyone any TN modifiers. However, if it were like this:

I'd have to disagree. The point isn't whether the ganger is killed, but
whether the sam is forced to act/react to the ganger. Even if he does
kill the ganger, he still had to do something, pulling him out of
position and making it harder for him to defend versus the next person.

OTOH he doesn't have to worry about that guy anymore, so he can
concentrate on the next guy.

Hmmm... Can anyone think of a better solution?

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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