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Message no. 1
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 12:21:06 -0400
>From: Sebastien Diot <Sebastien_Diot@****.UQUEBEC.CA>
>Subject: Is it really BAD to be ... munchkin ?
>
>It seems that most of the people here are GMs and that most of them are
>anti-munchkins. I know that the Munchkins are not an "endangered
spece"(sp?)
>but I would like to point out one thing:
>
>Isn't Real Life(TM) itself munchkinistic ?
>
>Just a thought...
>

This is not a direct response Sebastien, but your post triggered this train
of thought: munchkins are the larval form of game masters. Think about the
traits ascribed to munchkins - a desire to be 'all-powerful', they expect to
'win', they're willing to 'bend' the rules or take them to absurd lengths to
further their own ends.
Now consider recent posts by game masters on the 'fudging dice rolls' thread
and the 'by the book' thread - GM's claim the right to be all powerful
[anything less is stifling to their creativity]; they not only expect to
win, they fudge dice rolls to ensure it; they're not only willing to bend
and stretch rules, they make them up out of whole cloth to further their own
ends.
Whaddya think?



Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 2
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:46:16 -0700
Terry writes:

>>>This is not a direct response Sebastien, but your post triggered this train
of thought: munchkins are the larval form of game masters. Think about the
traits ascribed to munchkins - a desire to be 'all-powerful', they expect to
'win', they're willing to 'bend' the rules or take them to absurd lengths to
further their own ends.
Now consider recent posts by game masters on the 'fudging dice rolls' thread
and the 'by the book' thread - GM's claim the right to be all powerful<<<

I can't belive this. I was stunned at the whole "well, how come, if the GM's
doesn't want (item/rule) in his game, and all the players do, why shouldn't
the GM be considered outvited" thread, too, but I was too busy to say anything.

Look. If a director makes a movie, an author writes a book; does the audience or
reader decide what it's about? Does the reader stand over the author's shoulder
and shout; "No, don't kill that character! I like him!" Can you imagine the
response? As an author, I can; I'd turn around and say, "hey, if you don't like
it, don't read it." The GM is in charge of the world. That's what "Game *MASTER*
means. If all the players want a certain rule, and the GM doesn't, then why
doesn't one of those players be the GM for awhile, and the old GM can play, or
not, as he chooses.
I can't believe we're arguing about whether the GM should be
"all-powerful". That's the way it IS. There's nothing wrong with suggesting
things, or discussing things with the GM, but the end result is, the GM is
making the game for you to play. If you don't like how he/she does it, then
leave. Are you going to argue with the writer of the adventure you're playing
too? Call up FASA and complain that this rule sucks, and since you players
outnumber FASA, then FASA should change? I admit that they may be open to
suggestions, but this whole idea of "It just isn't *FAIR*"; well, I've got
news for you.... neither is life.

How many times has your GM "won"? (However you want to define it, I still
maintain that it's not a contest, for crissake) How do you define the GM
"furthering his own ends"? What the heck does he have to gain? He doesn't
have any characters gaining Karma. If he wants the adventure to go a certain
way, you can probably bet it's to make it more entertaining for *YOU*, the
player. Goddamn that nasty GM, being sneaky and putting all that effort and
thought in, just so you can have a better time. What a jerk.

As always and always, if you don't like it, leave. Whether it's a book, a
movie, or a game. If you've got a point, chances are others will be doing
the same, and the author/director/GM will get the hint and start changing
their product to be more acceptable to the audience. If you're just
whining and bitching because you can't get your way and have everything
happen that you want, then you can go off and make your own book/movie/game
and do it just the way you want. Then everybody's happy.

Sorry, I'm ranting... enough for now.

-E
Message no. 3
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 21:57:57 +0200
Eve wrote:
> Terry writes:
> >>>This is not a direct response Sebastien, but your post triggered this
train
> of thought: munchkins are the larval form of game masters. Think about the
> traits ascribed to munchkins - a desire to be 'all-powerful', they expect to
> 'win', they're willing to 'bend' the rules or take them to absurd lengths to
> further their own ends.
> Now consider recent posts by game masters on the 'fudging dice rolls' thread
> and the 'by the book' thread - GM's claim the right to be all powerful<<<

If I remember right - and I think I do - nowhere was said changes to rules are
decisions done by GMs alone. I can't speak for anyone but me, but as far as I
know, it is done best with players and GM discussing a problem or rule to change
and devolp a way around the given problem. And believe me: Its WAY easier
to work in a group for a new rule then alone!

> I can't belive this. I was stunned at the whole "well, how come, if the GM's
> doesn't want (item/rule) in his game, and all the players do, why shouldn't
> the GM be considered outvited" thread, too, but I was too busy to say
> anything.

Hm, whenever I played (be it as player or GM) it was nearly _ever_ the GM to
introduce new items... and the players being most happy. We are two GMs in
one group, switching from player to GM every two or three runs, and it's an
unspoken rule that the GM decides what comes in. And no: So far no GM
allowed things/items the other disallowed. ("Timeout... Would you come out,
Wolfie (*other GM*)?" outside: "On this >thingy<, how did you
rule...?")
Players have ideas of their own, that's natural (I think), but then it
goes: Well, I look for {mechanic|weaponsmith|cyberdeck constructor|...} and
ask him if it's possible to build..." and back is the topic at the GM.
Someone on this list once said: "Give 'em what they want, if they insist,
and if it is neccessary, make them regret it!" (well, not word-for-word, but
along the tone...)

> Look. If a director makes a movie, an author writes a book; does the
> audience or reader decide what it's about?
> Does the reader stand over the author's shoulder
> and shout; "No, don't kill that character! I like him!" Can you imagine the
> response? As an author, I can; I'd turn around and say,
> "hey, if you don't like
> it, don't read it." The GM is in charge of the world. That's what
> "Game *MASTER* means. If all the players want a certain rule, and the
> GM doesn't, then why
> doesn't one of those players be the GM for awhile, and the old GM can play, or
> not, as he chooses.
> I can't believe we're arguing about whether the GM should be
> "all-powerful". That's the way it IS. There's nothing wrong with suggesting
> things, or discussing things with the GM, but the end result is, the GM is
> making the game for you to play. If you don't like how he/she does it, then
> leave. Are you going to argue with the writer of the adventure you're playing
> too? Call up FASA and complain that this rule sucks, and since you players
> outnumber FASA, then FASA should change? I admit that they may be open to
> suggestions, but this whole idea of "It just isn't *FAIR*"; well, I've got
> news for you.... neither is life.
>
> How many times has your GM "won"? (However you want to define it, I still
> maintain that it's not a contest, for crissake) How do you define the GM

Hm, I win nearly anytime I GM in a roleplaying game. If th players have fun,
and I enjoy myself, and maybe someone eats his fingernails down to the palm
for tension, then I _won_! :-) And IMHO that's the only way to win in RPGs.
Have Fun!

> "furthering his own ends"? What the heck does he have to gain? He doesn't
> have any characters gaining Karma. If he wants the adventure to go a certain
> way, you can probably bet it's to make it more entertaining for *YOU*, the
> player. Goddamn that nasty GM, being sneaky and putting all that effort and
> thought in, just so you can have a better time. What a jerk.
>
> As always and always, if you don't like it, leave. Whether it's a book, a
> movie, or a game. If you've got a point, chances are others will be doing
> the same, and the author/director/GM will get the hint and start changing
> their product to be more acceptable to the audience. If you're just
> whining and bitching because you can't get your way and have everything
> happen that you want, then you can go off and make your own book/movie/game
> and do it just the way you want. Then everybody's happy.
>
> Sorry, I'm ranting... enough for now.
:-)
Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 4
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 16:04:14 -0400
Terry Amburgey writes:

> This is not a direct response Sebastien, but your post triggered this train
> of thought: munchkins are the larval form of game masters. Think about the
> traits ascribed to munchkins - a desire to be 'all-powerful', they expect to
> 'win', they're willing to 'bend' the rules or take them to absurd lengths to
> further their own ends.

For their characters. Yes. Munchkins do this, and ignore any consideration
of whether their actions make sense.


> Now consider recent posts by game masters on the 'fudging dice rolls' thread
> and the 'by the book' thread - GM's claim the right to be all powerful
> [anything less is stifling to their creativity]; they not only expect to
> win, they fudge dice rolls to ensure it; they're not only willing to bend
> and stretch rules, they make them up out of whole cloth to further their own
> ends.
> Whaddya think?

I think you should try being a Gamemaster before making such blanket
criticisms. Have you tried it? No, obviously not.. If you did, you
would understand that the concept of "winning" is entirely, totally,
completely meaningless from the GM's viewpoint; even more so than it is
for players. You've just shown that you have no understanding of this,
and even less understanding what the "ends" of a Gamemaster really are.

Please try it sometime, Associate Professor Amburgey. Spend six hours some
week designing NPC's and settings. Read and reread the rulebooks repeatedly
to make sure you understand and can handle situations before they arise.
THEN spend six to eight hours in a gaming session, trying to handle half a
dozen players at once, each with their own priorities and their own agendas,
matching their combined wit and cleverness against your own. Try to keep
them organized, and deal with their needs one at a time. When they do
things you couldn't possibly expect, try not to be too upset as you ignore
everything you wrote up that week and spend less than thirty seconds
creating new threats that will be difficult enough to be entertaining,
without overpowering them.

It's a difficult balance. And Gamemastering is a difficult job. Some do
the job better than others, but any GM who knows what he's doing puts the
PC's first and foremost in his mind. Everything you criticize GM's for,
they do for the group's benefit. GM's push themselves, and push
themselves HARD, harder than any other single player, for the primary
purpose of entertaining the group.

I don't expect you to appreciate this. You've decided you have a grudge,
and nobody's going to change that by arguing. Perhaps you've played with
a lousy GM; I don't know. I don't care, either. I DO care that you're
trying to give GM's a bad image, and that you criticize them for being
Gamemasters without making any attempt to understand their motivations.
Some Gamemasters are "munchkinish," yes, and some are just plain clueless --
but not for the things you hold against them.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "Everybody wants to go to heaven,
Please don't blame anyone else. | but nobody wants to die."
Message no. 5
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 22:11:30 +01.0
On 21 Aug 95 at 12:21, Terry Amburgey wrote:

> This is not a direct response Sebastien, but your post triggered
> this train of thought: munchkins are the larval form of game
> masters. Think about the traits ascribed to munchkins - a desire to
> be 'all-powerful', they expect to 'win', they're willing to 'bend'
> the rules or take them to absurd lengths to further their own ends.
> Now consider recent posts by game masters on the 'fudging dice
> rolls' thread and the 'by the book' thread - GM's claim the right to
> be all powerful [anything less is stifling to their creativity];
> they not only expect to win, they fudge dice rolls to ensure it;
> they're not only willing to bend and stretch rules, they make them
> up out of whole cloth to further their own ends. Whaddya think?

You're really frustrated about the way your GM runs the game, or else
you like to irritate people :( . This is starting to look like a
personal verdetta against GM's, and I do not like the way you phrase
your "point of view/question". As a GM I try to give my players a
good evening/night full of fun by writing and running the adventures.
Not because I like to kill them of, want to play God, am a notorious
cheater, or want to "win".
My first and most important concern is that my players like the game.
I see myself more like an author writing a book for his audience, than
an all-powerfull God. Of course during the game you'll have allmost
god-like powers over the players because in fact you control the world
and stage the action, but play "God" for a couple of games an its: exit
players. Try it once, and you will quickly notice that you're as bound
to the rules and gamesystem as any player is. Our urge to change rules
is born more out of a need to improve the level of realism in our game,
than to exert more power in the game.

And about the "winning": what the heck is there to win for a GM??!!
If he kills all the PC's? I'm never even thinking about winning when
I'm GM-ing. If you're still roleplaying in terms of "winning and
losing" its time to play normal games and move away from RPG's.
The only way I "win" a game, is when my players have enjoyed
themselves and liked the adventure.

And I think a lot of GM's have tried very reasonably to explain the
reasons why they "bend the rules" sometimes, but if you're still
under the impression its wrong and cheating, so be it. I can live
with that, as long as you're not one of my players.

Concluding I like to say that if you don't like the way we GM's stage
our games, stop whining and start playing something without a GM, or
try it yourself sometimes. Then you can see how it really is to be a
GM. As far as I can see from your posts, you don't know a thing about
it.

A highly irritated,


Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in
your home. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
Geek Code v3.0:
GLS d-(+) s+:+ a?(26) C+(++) U P? L? E? W+ N++ K? w+ O- M- V? PS+
PE- Y+ PGP t+(--) 5? X++ R+(++) tv b+++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r y+
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:10:37 +0200
[snip]
>Whaddya think?

I think you've had too many bad experiences with gamemasters, and now you're
generalizing and throwing in some psychology to make it all seem like you
know what you're talking about :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The Teddy Pugh Interview
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 7
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 16:53:00 MDT
>Please try it sometime, Associate Professor Amburgey. Spend six hours some
>week designing NPC's and settings. Read and reread the rulebooks repeatedly
>to make sure you understand and can handle situations before they arise.

Ouch, get that man a band-aid.....

>I don't expect you to appreciate this. You've decided you have a grudge,
>and nobody's going to change that by arguing. Perhaps you've played with
>a lousy GM; I don't know. I don't care, either. I DO care that you're

I think you did a good job clarifing what GM's go through.

>Some Gamemasters are "munchkinish," yes, and some are just plain clueless --
>but not for the things you hold against them.
>

One of the things I tend to notice about my games are, either the players
kick the NPC's butts within two rounds, or by the end of the second round,
their (PC's) are ready to retreat themselves. If one of my players want to
spend two million nuyen, fine, I'll let them. They also know that extra
mill, has a HEAVY price. One player has to watch what he does, can't have
to much attention or he'll be back with the military. Is that munchkinism?
I don't think so, just makes it interesting play.....


Jill
Message no. 8
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 18:54:41 -0400
Terry wrote:

> they not only expect to
>win, they fudge dice rolls to ensure it; they're not only willing to bend
>and stretch rules, they make them up out of whole cloth to further their own
>ends.
>Whaddya think?

Close but no cigar. The GM is not "trying to win."

Duke
Message no. 9
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 18:58:16 -0400
On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Duke Diener wrote:
> Terry wrote:
> > they not only expect to
> >win, they fudge dice rolls to ensure it; they're not only willing to bend
> >and stretch rules, they make them up out of whole cloth to further their own
> >ends.
> >Whaddya think?
> Close but no cigar. The GM is not "trying to win."
> Duke

I have to agree. When I GM, "winning" is the furthest thing from
my mind. Usually, what I'm thinking of is: "Wow, they blew through the
place and STOLE THE FRAGGIN OD, now what do I do??? I sometimes wish I
DIDN'T have such CREATIVE players. But, frag, it's fun...";)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 10
From: Justin Elliott <justin.elliott@*******.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 11:12:04 +1200
>[snip]
>>Whaddya think?
>

Just a question, was this a serious post ( as the others seemed to have
thought) or just a bit of light hearted humour (like I thought it was)?


Justin Elliott
(justin.elliott@*******.otago.ac.nz)

"To know nothing of history, is to remain perpetually a child"

---Cicero

"Time is a great teacher, but unfortuneately it kills all its pupils."

---Hector Berlioz
Message no. 11
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:12:38 +0200
Stephen wrote lots of good stuff on GMing in reply to Terry:
[snip, snip, snip]
> It's a difficult balance. And Gamemastering is a difficult job. Some do
> the job better than others, but any GM who knows what he's doing puts the
> PC's first and foremost in his mind. Everything you criticize GM's for,
> they do for the group's benefit. GM's push themselves, and push
> themselves HARD, harder than any other single player, for the primary
> purpose of entertaining the group.
>
I really wanted to say something about this thread but then I realized that
everything was said and there's nothing left for me. *sigh*
I just want to say that I'm feeling sorry for Terry to get stuck to such a
bad GM. As stated by other person with more fancy words, the main theme of
the game is FUN and the GM is the person to provide it.
I cheat a LOT in my game, sometimes I even don't look at the dice to come
to a result but always in favour of the game (=players) and not in favour
for me. And there's one iron rule in my game and all of my players know
this rule by heart: You can get every piece of equipment or gimmick you
like when you can pay for it and it's available but then expect one or
two NPCs in the following gaming sessions which have this piece, too.
And this rules works just fine. This game has to offer excitment (sp?) and
I don't see this in wading through masses of low-level punks with your WR3
delta grade and lots of other stuff (I don't like orkbashing in **&* either 8)

Enough is said
bye,
Stefan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This space
intentionally
left blank
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Message no. 12
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:47:44 +0200
One of the things I tend to notice about my games are, either the players
kick the NPC's butts within two rounds, or by the end of the second round,
their (PC's) are ready to retreat themselves. If one of my players want to
spend two million nuyen, fine, I'll let them. They also know that extra
mill, has a HEAVY price. One player has to watch what he does, can't have
to much attention or he'll be back with the military. Is that munchkinism?
I don't think so, just makes it interesting play.....

Our group is one of those stingy ones, while admittedly we have
more equipment that most small scale security firms (and hardley use
it) The one thing that our group does do is buy into buissness etc.
This adds a whole new dimension to our games, as we start with the
political and corporate intreague. As a point, the group (combined)
currently owns 47% in a small (read < 5,000,000) corp, our own
mercenary group (25 orcs, courtosy of orc underground), a full
medical facility and quasi-military base, a night club, an exclusive
restuarant (under construction), a fast food outlet (also
under construction). Now while this may sound extreme, it adds an
entire new aspect to our games, we go on runs more often than not
just to maintain our status quo. (And forces us to spend nuyen like
water to pay for bribes etc etc etc)



Andre'

+----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who follow the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strenght to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bulletts, sweat, tears|
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen.|
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 13
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:57:31 +0000
I have to agree. When I GM, "winning" is the furthest thing from
my mind. Usually, what I'm thinking of is: "Wow, they blew through the
place and STOLE THE FRAGGIN OD, now what do I do??? I sometimes wish I
DIDN'T have such CREATIVE players. But, frag, it's fun...";)

Hear Hear. Thinking up unique and creative methods for commiting
a run is (as far as I am concerned) the ideal of a Shadowrun. After
all, most of the 'standard' methods of attack are blocked. The best
runs are where you hit a place in an unordidox way. Watch them block
it up and hit them again from somewhere else. After fun is fun, and
outwitting the GM does give the players a warm tingle of satisfaction

Andre'

+----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who follow the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strenght to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bulletts, sweat, tears|
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen.|
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 14
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 11:04:41 +0200
Andre' wrote:
> One of the things I tend to notice about my games are, either the players
> kick the NPC's butts within two rounds, or by the end of the second round,
> their (PC's) are ready to retreat themselves. If one of my players want to
> spend two million nuyen, fine, I'll let them. They also know that extra
> mill, has a HEAVY price. One player has to watch what he does, can't have
> to much attention or he'll be back with the military. Is that munchkinism?
> I don't think so, just makes it interesting play.....
>
> Our group is one of those stingy ones, while admittedly we have
> more equipment that most small scale security firms (and hardley use
> it) The one thing that our group does do is buy into buissness etc.
> This adds a whole new dimension to our games, as we start with the
> political and corporate intreague. As a point, the group (combined)
> currently owns 47% in a small (read < 5,000,000) corp, our own
> mercenary group (25 orcs, courtosy of orc underground), a full
> medical facility and quasi-military base, a night club, an exclusive
> restuarant (under construction), a fast food outlet (also
> under construction). Now while this may sound extreme, it adds an
> entire new aspect to our games, we go on runs more often than not
> just to maintain our status quo. (And forces us to spend nuyen like
> water to pay for bribes etc etc etc)
Hm, wondering, how do they declare the =Y= from Shadowruns in taxes?
Where did the n-million =Y= come from? "Well, Mr Taxman, there was this
bag on the street, ya know, and when I happened to open it..."
Hm. Buy a lawyer-corp :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 15
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:14:00 EST
>GM's claim the right to be all powerful
>[anything less is stifling to their creativity]; they not only expect to
>win, they fudge dice rolls to ensure it; they're not only willing to bend
>and stretch rules, they make them up out of whole cloth to further their own
>ends.
>Whaddya think?
Terry, Terry, Terry, Terry, there is ancient saying in the gaming community:
"the GM is always right." After all it is his game, and if you don't like
it you can always leave and find another GM or GM yourself. Unlike board
games, there are no "winners" or "losers" in roleplaying games there
is only
success and failure. The players usually have a common goal, they either
succeed or they don't (sometimes success can lead to death and so can
failure). I don't understand how a GM can "win". The GM is the judge,
jury, and excutioner in his game, thus, in a way, he is "all powerful". But
a good GM will always do his best to keep players alive, even if he needs to
"fudge" the dice rolls to do so. BTW fudging the dice rolls could be
interpreted as using Karma (afterall the GM as an ifinite amount of Karma).
He will also listen to his players disputes of his version of the rules.
And about making up rules, I have to agree with some of what you said. I
once knew a GM, by the name of Keith, that never owned any of the books. He
made up the rules on his own. Many of his players, thought that his rules
were the rules to Shadowrun, until they bought books themselves. Then they
realized that they weren't playing Shadowrun. They dubbed his version
"Keithrun". In Lafayette, IN he is known as a major "munchkin". I
almost
made the mistake of entering his campaign when I was first introduced the
"Shadowrun". Fortunately I found a different GM. I don't know what
experiences you have had with "Shadorun", although it seems to me that you
have had rather poor experieces with the game. As far as the rules of the
game go, think of them like the Constitution of the United States, they are
left open for interpretation and changes.:)
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 16
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:14:00 EST
>As always and always, if you don't like it, leave. Whether it's a book, a
>movie, or a game. If you've got a point, chances are others will be doing
>the same, and the author/director/GM will get the hint and start changing
>their product to be more acceptable to the audience. If you're just
>whining and bitching because you can't get your way and have everything
>happen that you want, then you can go off and make your own book/movie/game
>and do it just the way you want. Then everybody's happy.
Eve, ditto.
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 17
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:19:58 -0400
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
>>From: Sebastien Diot <Sebastien_Diot@****.UQUEBEC.CA>
>>Subject: Is it really BAD to be ... munchkin ?
>>
>>It seems that most of the people here are GMs and that most of them are
>>anti-munchkins. I know that the Munchkins are not an "endangered
spece"(sp?)
>>but I would like to point out one thing:
>>
>>Isn't Real Life(TM) itself munchkinistic ?
>>
>>Just a thought...
>>
>
>This is not a direct response Sebastien, but your post triggered this train
>of thought: munchkins are the larval form of game masters.
>Whaddya think?

HAHAHAHAHAHA! I AM ALL POWERFUL! HAHAHAHAHAHAA!

I feel better now....

Actually, they're right...at least for me...when I play in someone else's
campaign, I have to resist the temptation to become munchkinistic...it could,
however, have something to do with my munchkinistic game upbringing...my first
DM was a munchkin king. (Ever see a MU Kobold with six attacks per round?)

But if you try hard enough, you can resist the primal fighting rage that wells
within all of us...(must resist....cannot munchkinize...)

NO! I AM TOO POWERFUL FOR YOU, MORTAL!

[Terminal destroyed by barrage of weapons fire...]

>>>>>> Nate
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| I was high on life...but then they arrested me... |
| |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 18
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:29:19 -0400
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
>As always and always, if you don't like it, leave. Whether it's a book, a
>movie, or a game. If you've got a point, chances are others will be doing
>the same, and the author/director/GM will get the hint and start changing
>their product to be more acceptable to the audience. If you're just
>whining and bitching because you can't get your way and have everything
>happen that you want, then you can go off and make your own book/movie/game
>and do it just the way you want. Then everybody's happy.
>
>Sorry, I'm ranting... enough for now.

Yes! Yes! She gets the prize! That is exactly what I feel, at least.

Remind me not to get on your mean side... :)

All-powerful GM's are good... All-powerful characters are bad...

>>>>> Nate (Who is agreeing and posting at the same time, contrary to
Gurth)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| I was high on life...but then they arrested me... |
| |
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Message no. 19
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 08:52:02 -0700
It seems as if Terry has gotten all sides of this issue going.
Congratulations, I have not seen this lively of a disscussion since, oh what
was his name that offended everyone and anyone he could %), anyway your
point is well taken Terry.

I must concur with several others that the verbage was a bit harsh; however,
your points are very valid. As gm's we walk a difficult line, we hold the
fate of the game in our hands. Yes, this can give some gm's a god-complex
and munchkinize them, but it can also be used to create Kick-ass games! |]
Gm's who walk this line and use their influence to provide as enjoyable a
game as possible, are to be congratulated for their creativity and inginuity
(as should those players who continue to challenge the gm and be independant
thinkers). $> Those gm's who thumbs are poised ready to squash the
individual thinking pc, will hopefully (but not likely, unfortunately) not
have players for very long.:}

As far as munchkins are concerned, I think it is a matter of perspective.
Cyberpunk in gerneral is munchkinistic when compared to a fantasy game
without magic, or playing everyday people in 1995.:? The degree of power,
for me, does not define whether a game is munchkin or not, it is how the gm
and players utilize the rules. If a player takes a low-power game adn
maximizes or over-maiximizes their character, that I would consider a
munchkin. Likewise, a gm who continously throws Cuthulu style enemies at
low-powered players I would consider a munchkin or they need to swith to
Cuthulu where players really can die of fright (gm bursts into maniacally
laughter, several players clutch at their chests and fall to the ground.
The player who was geting snack from the kitchen comes in and says "Great!
Now we have to find some more players, I wish you would stop laughing like
that! :)). On the other hand, if everyone is high powered, then that is
simply a higher powered game, call it munchkin if you want, I call it a
different level of play.:?

Enough of my ramblings and extraneous thoughts. On with the show!;}
(::) <simese twins>

Thanks and Enjoy.
Brian

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Essence: It is a descending stream of pure activity which is the dynamic
force of the universe.
-Kabbalah (B.C.E.~1200-~700 A.C.E.)
*****************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet": bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
or brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************
Message no. 20
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:14:55 -0400
> I have to agree. When I GM, "winning" is the furthest thing from
> my mind. Usually, what I'm thinking of is: "Wow, they blew through the
> place and STOLE THE FRAGGIN OD, now what do I do??? I sometimes wish I
> DIDN'T have such CREATIVE players. But, frag, it's fun...";)

Heh.. Wholehearted agreement with THAT one!

Which brings up a new thread idea.. What are some of the more 'creative'
plans that have been pulled in Shadowrun games? Either stuff you were
involved in, if you were a player, or stuff your players did if you're a GM.

My campaign's too new to have anything downright brilliant yet, but I was
amused last week during the second DE mini-run (intercept the DocWagon
courier).. The plan my players came up with was to dress up the Raven
shaman and the Chinese ganger (who's male) as Girl Scouts, then go up to
the Jackrabbit and try to sell the guy cookies. When he winds down his
window, the ganger slaps him in the face with a tranq patch, and the troll
ties the Jackrabbit to the front of the team's van.

They actually spent about an hour working up variations of the Girl Scout
plan.. Finally, the Phys Adept arrives and hits 'em all over the head.
"When was the last time you saw ANYONE stop for Girl Scouts, much less a
courier on a run?" I gave everyone involved a Karma Point for creativity
(in the middle of the game, yes) and told them to get on with it.

The best part was trying to explain Girl Scouts to the shaman, who's
Russian. Young girls in uniform.. "You have those in THIS country TOO?"
>8->


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "God is a polytheist."
Please don't blame anyone else. |
Message no. 21
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:40:26 -0400
On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:
> Andre' wrote:
> > under construction). Now while this may sound extreme, it adds an
> > entire new aspect to our games, we go on runs more often than not
> > just to maintain our status quo. (And forces us to spend nuyen like
> > water to pay for bribes etc etc etc)
> Hm, wondering, how do they declare the =Y= from Shadowruns in taxes?
> Where did the n-million =Y= come from? "Well, Mr Taxman, there was this
> bag on the street, ya know, and when I happened to open it..."
> Hm. Buy a lawyer-corp :-)
> Sascha

<G> If I understand correctly, if they're working for a corp,
they don't have to(Extraterritoriality<sp?>), and if they're not, there's
lots of ways, such as having a decker plant an 'investment' that just
came off. After all, most systems of that type are Orange... If you'r
getting the money, you can pay for a good decker to plant the "business"
you got it from...

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 22
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 17:04:50 -0400
On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:
> Which brings up a new thread idea.. What are some of the more 'creative'
> plans that have been pulled in Shadowrun games? Either stuff you were
> involved in, if you were a player, or stuff your players did if you're a GM.

How's this one? MCT has a research station that's closed off the
Matrix, and the players have to get into it and swipe some data from the
main computer. It's a secret location(no one knows it's a research
center), so MCT doesn't have a great deal of manpower security. It does,
however, have a ton of technological security...

The players break in. One almost dies from the monowire that
almost decapitated her, but instead cut off her hand(OUCH! She ducked).
The Mage helps her a bit, and they decided to continue. They get to the
main computer, not a terminal(lucky, I had a floorplan of the place made
up. Lots of nice stuff there). The Decker breaks in from there, and get
the data. They're about to leave, when the decker says: "Why don't we
take the Optical Drive? It only ways about 40 Kilos... Zorad(Troll) can
take it easy." My jaw hit the floor. The OD had all the research data
for the station... Never thought of that.... So, they got out with a OD
full of data. Too bad they're stuck in Chicago now(then again, maybe
not...MCT would definitely have put a hit team or two on 'em, if they
could find out they did it...) Took them a hell of a while to break the
encryption, but they did it eventually...

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 23
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:24:06 +0200
At 17.04 22/08/95 -0400, you wrote:
[snip]
>the data. They're about to leave, when the decker says: "Why don't we
>take the Optical Drive? It only ways about 40 Kilos... Zorad(Troll) can
>take it easy." My jaw hit the floor. The OD had all the research data
>for the station... Never thought of that.... So, they got out with a OD
>full of data. Too bad they're stuck in Chicago now(then again, maybe
>not...MCT would definitely have put a hit team or two on 'em, if they
>could find out they did it...) Took them a hell of a while to break the
>encryption, but they did it eventually...
>
>Dave

Hey, this occoured to me too! The players disassembled (electronics tn#10)
the computer and tugged away the pieces. They didn't have a decker handy, so...

Bye, Paolo
------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider http://www.interware.it/users/paolo
Trieste, Italy
Ph. +39-40-774488
------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of The Shadowrun Archive
Message no. 24
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:58:31 +0200
=}On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:
=}> Andre' wrote:
=}> > under construction). Now while this may sound extreme, it adds an
=}> > entire new aspect to our games, we go on runs more often than not
=}> > just to maintain our status quo. (And forces us to spend nuyen like
=}> > water to pay for bribes etc etc etc)
=}> Hm, wondering, how do they declare the =Y= from Shadowruns in taxes?
=}> Where did the n-million =Y= come from? "Well, Mr Taxman, there was this
=}> bag on the street, ya know, and when I happened to open it..."
=}> Hm. Buy a lawyer-corp :-)
=}> Sascha
=}
=} <G> If I understand correctly, if they're working for a corp,
=}they don't have to(Extraterritoriality<sp?>), and if they're not, there's
=}lots of ways, such as having a decker plant an 'investment' that just
=}came off. After all, most systems of that type are Orange... If you'r
=}getting the money, you can pay for a good decker to plant the "business"
=}you got it from...

In the first case it helps to have a swiss bank account and a
bloody hot decker who owes you his life 3 times over. Second, I
didn't mention who the other shareholders of the corp where. They are
*ahem* to the best of our (character) knowledge, None other than
Loftwyer and Harliquin. Each controls 26%. (So our decker says) ;-).

Anyway we have a decker, who permenantly updates our credsticks every
few days and at the end of each month. We then use that 'legal' money
gained from our current buisness interests to pay for new buisness.
The bribes and other 'non-legal' payments come out of our secondry
cashe of money that from shadoweunning. Hence our books for the
buisnesses are legal. The individuals who own the buisnesses are
legal, they exist in every aspect, including having home addresses
and tax forms etc etc etc all the way back to birth. The decker is
watchs our backs, not only because he is a friend (buddy) of ours,
not only because we pay him a fortune (about 20K-Y-) a month, but
also because we happen to have a bioritual sample of him (so that if
he gets lost again we can track him down;-))

Andre'

+----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who follow the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strenght to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bulletts, sweat, tears|
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen.|
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 11:54:24 +0200
>Which brings up a new thread idea.. What are some of the more 'creative'
>plans that have been pulled in Shadowrun games? Either stuff you were
>involved in, if you were a player, or stuff your players did if you're a GM.

Not too many, my player tended to be very straightforward in his plans. And
usually they were good enough to pull off anyway -- like, when they had to
kidnap an exec of a small corp, they just waited around the corner from her
apartment until she came outside, then drove up to her and dragged her into
the car... Nothing much anyone could have done about it without it getting
to look like the GM is trying to pile up all sorts of unlikely things
against the PCs, is there?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I listen for the voice inside my head
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 26
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:03:50 -0400
> Not too many, my player tended to be very straightforward in his plans. And
> usually they were good enough to pull off anyway -- like, when they had to
> kidnap an exec of a small corp, they just waited around the corner from her
> apartment until she came outside, then drove up to her and dragged her into
> the car... Nothing much anyone could have done about it without it getting
> to look like the GM is trying to pile up all sorts of unlikely things
> against the PCs, is there?

Actually, yes. Where were her "executive protection specialists" (i.e.
bodyguards)? Why did she have to step outside -- wouldn't an upscale
apartment complex have a secured indoor garage? What about the security
of the apartment complex itself; if the tenants are paying enough, they're
watching everything, including their perimeter, and would be suspicious
of a car sitting there just outside. Not suspicious enough for direct
action, but might have some guards to stop 'em when they pulled that stunt.

This is 2055. EVERYBODY's paranoid. >8-> It's not unreasonable to have
strong protection for "important" people.

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "You sir, are no lady."
Please don't blame anyone else. | - R. Slatkin
Message no. 27
From: The Kumquat <LAYBROWNJT@***.CUIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: munchkins and gamemasters
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 11:37:50 -0500
Ok, Here's my take on the gamemaster-as-munchkins flamewar, which has been
cleverly disguised to look like an intelligent discussion.<smirk> I can see
both sides of the debate, and I don't think either side disagrees as much as
they might think....(geez, "sides", he says...everyone vs. Professor Terry is
more like it...:-P) WARNING FOR THE SARCASM OR HUMOR IMPAIRED: The following
post, although mostly intelligent discussion will contain bits which are
lighthearted attempts at livening up a discussion in which the participants are
fond of restating themselves and each other, and quoting 100+ line of previous
garbage. The lack of message quoting and use of spurious comments should not be
interpreted as attempts at flaming, and are just the product of the authors
penchant for contradicting everyone and everything, including himself. (That's
the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! What an idiot..<smirk>) In other
words, don't take offense, its all in fun.

Now, the attacks presented by both sides are, in turn both unfounded, and at
times to the point.(There he goes, contradicting again.) I really doubt that
Mr. Amburgey's point is that rules "bending" or "cheating" should ONLY
be in
favor of the players, and every aspect of the game should be determined by a
vote, as this could quickly lead to a boring time for all... "Oh, we're going
to save the Universe and party with Dunkelzahn and Harlequin, AGAIN?" Rather,
his original point was that the qualities ascribed to players as "munchkinous"
are not traits exclusive to the players... GMs can munchkin too, when they
selectively interpret game contraints (rules, rolls, etc) for the purpose of
making sure events in the game happen the way they were PLANNED by the GM. This
is a real danger, I can say from experience. If the GM always bends rules for
plot integrity, one possible result is loss of player control. I had a bad
experience like this once, when I based a run on a SR Novel, and used NPCs to
"drive" the characters through the plot, so that things happened the way they
did in the book. The end result was I maintained "my world" and "my
plot", BUT,
unfortunatley, no one, including myself, had any fun. I recognize the problem,
but I disagree with the esteemed Professor's proposed solution, while
regognizing its validity. Personally, I like a great deal of consistency in my
world, so I occasionally bend rules to keep this or that NPC alive, or to keep
fundamental "setting" aspects constant, for the purpose of having my world
"jazz" with the world presented by published sourcebooks, modules, and novels.
This does not lead to a loss of creativity, it just gives a boundary which my
stories need to fit in. In my opinion, playing without these kinds of
boundaries is, in a bastardized quote from Robert Frost, "like playing tennis
without a net". In order to keep my world the way I want it, I, as the GM MUST
BE IN CONTROL. Players voting in my world on aspects which affect it could
destroy my "setting integrity", and ruin the game for everyone. For example: I
decide to let my players vote, and they decide to allow cyberzombies. I have
certain problems with this, as the plot I've carefully set up for a month and
layed the groundwork for revolves around the cybermancy concept, and for it to
work, the PCs should have NO knowledge of the techniques involved in creating a
cyberzombie. I now have a problem, I can rewrite the plot to compensate, but it
ends up being a less compelling story, and a less fun adventure. For my style,
the GM should have final say on ALL aspects of the game, but that say is
influenced by player input.(When you're lucky enough to have players that GIVE
any.)

Now that I have given the good sides of both arguments, let me present the bad
side. Attacking either style of GMing is nonproductive, and silly. Making snap
judgements on things you don't know about, i.e. how that other guy runs his
games, or what experience he had with GMs and GMing does not help an
intelligent argument. My saying that my point of view is the only correct one,
by virtue of God-given Right, and you should run your game MY WAY, THE ONLY
WAY, is ludicrous... I, personally, don't like the idea of rotating GMs, but if
they work for you, go for it. If you want to fudge rolls which the players
can't see anyway, for the sake of your "world", go for it. Calling people
"cheater" and "hypocrite", though, is childish, and rather silly. To
Quote J.D.
Falk, "It makes you look like a Butthead." (Hmm... I just called everyone a
childish, silly Butthead... guess that makes me one too... let's call it even.
:-P)

Just My Two Pence.
The Kumquat.

Support Whirled Peas.
Message no. 28
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 16:49:00 MDT
>Actually, yes. Where were her "executive protection specialists" (i.e.
>bodyguards)? Why did she have to step outside -- wouldn't an upscale
>apartment complex have a secured indoor garage? What about the security
>of the apartment complex itself; if the tenants are paying enough, they're
>watching everything, including their perimeter......

Not really, one the guys I play with ;>, drives a phaeton. Have the decker
pull a few strings, you got your passes, have someone with corp etiquette
cancel her regular limo, a mage with a fashion spell, and the same thing
would have happened. Well, okay, the stun gernade in the back when the
driver shuts the door, is a bit different.


Jill
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 10:23:59 +0200
>Actually, yes. Where were her "executive protection specialists" (i.e.
>bodyguards)? Why did she have to step outside -- wouldn't an upscale
>apartment complex have a secured indoor garage? What about the security
>of the apartment complex itself; if the tenants are paying enough, they're
>watching everything, including their perimeter, and would be suspicious
>of a car sitting there just outside. Not suspicious enough for direct
>action, but might have some guards to stop 'em when they pulled that stunt.

I know, I know, I know, I ...
My 2055 is not as paranoid as many other peoples' seems to be (your SR world
seems to be pretty far as far as that goes, BTW :). There were guards, but
they couldn't do much against the players combined firepower (yes, that's
still an occassional way to solve things in my games, and I don't care what
others might think of it).

>This is 2055. EVERYBODY's paranoid. >8-> It's not unreasonable to have
>strong protection for "important" people.

It was only a small corp, not Ares Macrotech.

Now, I can make up excuses for just about anything if I want to, but do I
have to? Maybe I can throw this on "story advance" -- if they hadn't
kidnapped her, they wouldn't have found out the CEO's location...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I listen for the voice inside my head
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 30
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 12:32:51 +0200
}>Actually, yes. Where were her "executive protection specialists" (i.e.
}>bodyguards)? Why did she have to step outside -- wouldn't an upscale
}>apartment complex have a secured indoor garage? What about the security
}>of the apartment complex itself; if the tenants are paying enough, they're
}>watching everything, including their perimeter, and would be suspicious
}>of a car sitting there just outside. Not suspicious enough for direct
}>action, but might have some guards to stop 'em when they pulled that stunt.

The problem is that most area's like that have cameras (unless
the decker got to them), take the tape to a decent fixer, ask who are
those, hire shadowrun team #2, nice adventure plot, dodge team #2,
while origial johnson stalls

}
}>This is 2055. EVERYBODY's paranoid. >8-> It's not unreasonable to have
}>strong protection for "important" people.

Most groups would be paraniod if there was no protection around
this 'VIP' as it could all be one big trap. Off the topic for a
second and linking to the idea of creative games. Our team was hired
to re-acquire this one 'VIP', scoping out the place (we were
suspicious) we thought that the run was too easy for all the cash we
where going to get. So we hired another 'amature' shadowteam looking
similar to ourselves. After planting signal locators and microphone
pickups on them (they didn't know) we sent them to trigger the trap.
As they got geeked we went and paid the Johnson a visit.

}It was only a small corp, not Ares Macrotech.

But the small corps are usually a front for a bigger corp, hence
the question who is really behind corp XYZ ? Is is ABC Corp ? =
definition of parania.

}Now, I can make up excuses for just about anything if I want to, but do I
}have to? Maybe I can throw this on "story advance" -- if they hadn't
}kidnapped her, they wouldn't have found out the CEO's location...

Another plot advance, what is the CEO is not really their, just that
she believes (hence bypassing dectect truth spells) he is. It could
be one big trap !

Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strenght to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bulletts, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | + \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| |
\___/
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 21:46:05 +0200
>}It was only a small corp, not Ares Macrotech.
>
> But the small corps are usually a front for a bigger corp, hence
>the question who is really behind corp XYZ ? Is is ABC Corp ? =
>definition of parania.

An insect shaman operating on his own. The PCs were trying to locate him for
another corp, then found out he was an insect shaman when they went to his
"residence"...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I listen for the voice inside my head
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru & NERPS Project Leader
Message no. 32
From: Dustin McCraw <dmccraw@*****.AIX.CALPOLY.EDU>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:35:15 -0700
In a previous letter,
>
>Stephen wrote lots of good stuff on GMing in reply to Terry:
>[snip, snip, snip]
>this rule by heart: You can get every piece of equipment or gimmick you
>like when you can pay for it and it's available but then expect one or
>two NPCs in the following gaming sessions which have this piece, too.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
>---------------------------------------------------------------------


My thoughts exactly. The players can have anything they can get but the bad
guys have it also!!!!

--
Give blood, play rollerhockey
To walk is human, to skate divine
TSR Lightnings w/ ABEC 3's and Hyper PowerEdge's
Dustin J. McCraw dmccraw@****.aix.calpoly.edu
Message no. 33
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: munchkins and game masters
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:59:11 +0200
Dustin wrote:
> >this rule by heart: You can get every piece of equipment or gimmick you
> >like when you can pay for it and it's available but then expect one or
> >two NPCs in the following gaming sessions which have this piece, too.
>
> My thoughts exactly. The players can have anything they can get but the bad
> guys have it also!!!!
>
YES, and they got at least two of them... *evil grin*
bye,
Stefan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but there's nothing like having your friends show up with lots of guns.
-Frank Miller, The Big Fat Kill
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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