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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Aaron Binns)
Subject: Munchkins - how to deal with thm as the GM, and still be fair.
Date: Thu Oct 4 04:15:01 2001
Hi all,

Im about to run my very first Shadowrun game on the tabletop.
I have 5-6 novices to the SR universe and one nominal expert.
I am not a novice GM, but I am not experienced with tabletop GM'ing.

My problem is, that one of the novice players is really into the idea of
min/maxing his character. This guy is likley to get the others to all
min/max as well.

This is what I am talking about. No combat ability at all, all skills and
stats put towards social interaction. He wants to be a meta-hating human
corp sellout face with no combat skills in the shadows. For those who see a
strange similarity to another game.. yes, he's played CP2020 before. He is
also a veteran DnD player. Pretty much all the other players are playing
metahumans.

Furthermore there is the suggestion that everyone simply ignore everything
except their speciality. This is a recipe to getting them all killed very
quick.. especially as the first player appears to not grasp that humanis and
meta's dont mix.

Go figure.

now how do i deal with this guy, and the others if they min max to this
degree while still being fair? is it going to be such a terrible problem?

I expect a combat monster or two possibly... and a lot of magic using
characters.

Im kind of at a loss as to how to run SR with guys who want to be ultimate
superpower as starting characters.

Any suggestions? I am going to run the second adventure from 'First Run' as
the beginning game.

Aaron (GreyWolf)
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Munchkins - how to deal with thm as the GM, and still be fair.
Date: Thu Oct 4 10:05:01 2001
> Any suggestions? I am going to run the second adventure from 'First Run'
as
> the beginning game.
>
> Aaron (GreyWolf)
>
>

An interesting problem. As GM however you have the right to refuse
characters. I'd also sit down and talk with the others about what min/maxing
characters will effect. While social interaction is a big part of SR there
are scenarios where unless you can handle a gun you're toe tag material.

As for concentrating solely on thier specializations advise them of the
danger of this, throw scenarios at them where the team splits up but
suddenly one group is faced with a problem that is only present in the
specialization of someone in the other group but the mission hinges that the
current group deal with this problem. It quickly becomes apparent that
specializing can and will screw you over in the unforseeable future...
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Munchkins - how to deal with thm as the GM, and still be fair.
Date: Thu Oct 4 11:10:00 2001
> This is what I am talking about. No combat ability at all, all skills and
> stats put towards social interaction.

Are we talking about just the one character, or about all the characters on
this one? If it's just the one, that's fine. If it's all of them, well,
obviously you need to speak with the other players, and/or allow into the
games only characters that you specifically review and OK. If this means
taking the desires of the players and creating the characters yourself (with
some leeway -- 'martial art 4' and let them specify, 'entertainment knowledge
skill 3', or 'gang-related street knowledge 4', or 'firearm weapon 5' and
5,000 dedicated to their chosen gun and ammo.)

> He wants to be a meta-hating human
> corp sellout face with no combat skills in the shadows. For those who see a
> strange similarity to another game.. yes, he's played CP2020 before. He is
> also a veteran DnD player. Pretty much all the other players are playing
> metahumans.

Hell, I wish I had that in one of my groups. Hell, I HAVE had that in one of
my groups. The player was fiercely anti-prejudice -- he was one of those
skinheads that went and faced off with the Neo-Nazi skinheads and generally
wound up beating the crap out of them. He always played a rabidly prejudiced
character, though; I think he liked watching the character get his 'just
desserts'.

The way to handle this is NOT to handle this. Warn the player first
('Everyone else is playing races your character hates; are you sure you want
to do this?') but once he decides, leave it alone. Play the NPCs, but
remember that as soon as a character's prejudice is made blatant, those that
it is made blatant to will generally respond in kind. He has the effect of
'Racism (All)' at something significant; apply at LEAST half that modifier to
meta/meta-friendly tests against him after he's exposed his true colors. In
fact, ask him to rate his own racism between 1 and 6, as in SR3, p 92; that
way you can be consistent about it.

When the character's offensive nature is made known to the other players, be
neutral. You MUST be neutral. Don't go finding reasons for them to get
along; they're all PCs, let them work it out. One of the above-mentioned
player's characters was incredibly offensive, but also incredibly useful; my
own characters (when I played) and others used to give him flesh wounds and
broken bones fairly consistently. OTOH, we DID protect him; he was a rabid
asshole, but he was OUR rabid asshole.

IIRC, he wound up getting himself killed by a troll ganger who went beserk on
him...

> Furthermore there is the suggestion that everyone simply ignore everything
> except their speciality. This is a recipe to getting them all killed very
> quick..

Three ways to handle this one -- One, require every character to have a set
list of basic skills -- give them a list, or maybe select five of eight or
something. Two, do the above, of first counselling your characters and OKing
(or declining) every character. Three, let 'em play, make SURE that's what
they want to play, then ruthlessly exploit their insular natures.

Of the three, I prefer #1. Right offhand, I'd have them select 'one from
each section':

Pistols, shotguns, SMGs, unarmed combat
Negotiation, leadership, etiquette
Electronics, computers
Biotech, demolitions
Car, boat, bike
Athletics, stealth

With 2 at 2 and 4 at 3, that's 16 skill points. EVERYONE can afford 16 skill
points.

Oh yeah -- and when the meta players get together and break all the bones in
the ex-corp face's body, judge the healing time fairly -- then ask the player
if he REALLY wants to play a rabid anti-metahuman character. He could still
play THAT character, just ... change the guy's attitude.


The Wyrm Ouroboros
'The ultimate decker?
Half Russian mathemetician,
half Silicon Valley code freak.'
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: Munchkins - how to deal with thm as the GM, and still be fair.
Date: Thu Oct 4 16:50:01 2001
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:36:41 -0230 "Jonathan" <jhogan@**********.nf.net>
writes:
> > Any suggestions? I am going to run the second adventure from 'First
> Run'
> a
> current group deal with this problem. It quickly becomes apparent
> that
> specializing can and will screw you over in the unforseeable
> future...
>
>Aaron,

I suggest let them have their characters as is. Run a "go to a concert
at a bar" and have a bar fight start. Feel free to injury the ever
livin' out of all of them. Do not let them get out of the fight to easy
either. The point here is to let them test run their reactions and
characters playability, thus showing deficiencies with out damaging the
PC's reputations. Afterwards let them revamp their characters and then
run from 1st run.

Holly

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Munchkins - how to deal with thm as the GM, and still be fair.
Date: Thu Oct 4 17:35:01 2001
--- Aaron Binns <abinns@*********.com.au> wrote:
He wants to be
> a meta-hating human
> corp sellout face with no combat skills in the
> shadows. Pretty much all the other
> players are playing
> metahumans.

By all means allow him to be whatever he wants but
play out the peoples reactions against him.
e.g. put penalties on negotiation test against
methuman characters and disallow him to take or make
any metahuman contact. Also dictate him that he
absolutely has to roleplay his attitude with the rest
of the team and vise versa. Believe me he'll soon
change his attitude!

> Furthermore there is the suggestion that everyone
> simply ignore everything
> except their speciality. This is a recipe to getting
> them all killed very
> quick.. especially as the first player appears to
> not grasp that humanis and
> meta's dont mix.
> I expect a combat monster or two possibly... and a
> lot of magic using
> characters.

That is not something bad. In all the games that I
have played the characters were doing just that and
bought general skills much later. If they have a
strong team spirit and clever minds they won't have
any problems

> Im kind of at a loss as to how to run SR with guys
> who want to be ultimate
> superpower as starting characters.

What is wrong with that? If he wants to do that and he
can back it up with an interesting story so be it. I
never understood why GMs have so little self control
and panic with the first sign of someone powerful.
Remember that the point is to have fun through good
stories and not hammer the players down so that you
feel you have control.



====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: Munchkins - how to deal with thm as the GM, and still be fair.
Date: Thu Oct 4 18:55:00 2001
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Holly Feray wrote:

> I suggest let them have their characters as is. Run a "go to a concert
> at a bar" and have a bar fight start. Feel free to injury the ever
> livin' out of all of them. Do not let them get out of the fight to easy
> either. The point here is to let them test run their reactions and
> characters playability, thus showing deficiencies with out damaging the
> PC's reputations. Afterwards let them revamp their characters and then
> run from 1st run.

GM: "Two guys begin arguing loudly at each other. They appear to have
differing colors on and are becoming physical."
Smart player: "I leave the bar before the gang war starts. I get on my
bike. I go home and watch reruns."
Dumb player: "I punch the guy standing next to me."

While I agree that munchkinism can kill a game, I tend to play a
pretty open game where players range from munchkins to true
roleplayers. Somewhere in the middle, they manage to balance each
other out. =)

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: Munchkins - how to deal with thm as the GM, and still be fair.
Date: Thu Oct 4 19:20:00 2001
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"Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:
>
> > Im kind of at a loss as to how to run SR with guys
> > who want to be ultimate
> > superpower as starting characters.
>
> What is wrong with that? If he wants to do that and he
> can back it up with an interesting story so be it. I
> never understood why GMs have so little self control
> and panic with the first sign of someone powerful.
> Remember that the point is to have fun through good
> stories and not hammer the players down so that you
> feel you have control.
>

Well, what's wrong with that is that they simply begin to "hammer"
the other players down by wanting to be the spotlight in everything.
I'm sorry, but when a player begins to complain that he isn't rolling
enough dice (and he's already got a 36 count Dice BlockT on the
table, it's time to have the character go away somewhere.

Those kind of characters are fun in a high level campaign where every
other character is equal to them. I tell you though, if a stray
bullet/Manabolt/tomahawk missile gets through their "carefully"
planned defenses, they can be some of the biggest babies about it.

Zebulin

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Munchkins - how to deal with thm as the GM, and still be fair.
Date: Thu Oct 4 21:25:01 2001
> > Any suggestions? I am going to run the second
adventure from 'First Run' as the beginning game.
> >
> > Aaron (GreyWolf)
>
> An interesting problem. As GM however you have the
right to refuse characters. I'd also sit down and talk
with the others about what min/maxing characters will
effect. While social interaction is a big part of SR
there are scenarios where unless you can handle a gun
you're toe tag material.
>
> As for concentrating solely on thier specializations
advise them of the danger of this, throw scenarios at
them where the team splits up but suddenly one group
is faced with a problem that is only present in the
specialization of someone in the other group but the
mission hinges that the current group deal with this
problem. It quickly becomes apparent that specializing
can and will screw you over in the unforseeable
future...

Please don't.

I've had to set aside my ganger shaman girl (and as
many people can attest, I LOVE mages) for a
super-skillwire guy in order to make sure that any
gaps are filled.

Don't get me killed. Please.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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