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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:00:04 -0500
Ok... As for everyone calling AD&D Munchkinny, here's my thoughts on it...

Yeah, in general, almost every gamer in the world will call AD&D
Munchkinny... But I've noticed that more often or not, it's said with a
fond little smile...

Most of us were raised on Dungeon Crawls... I've played (And run) Keep on
the Borderlands so many times that I've got the module darned near
memorized. (20 feet in, pit trap, giant rats to the left, kobolds in
ambush to the right...:)). In fact, just for kicks and giggles, I ran KotB
about 6 months ago, using Basic D&D rules... Fun, and fond memories, as
over half the group had played it multiple times in the past...

Face it... Back then, we were all munchkins... How many of you played D&D
and AD&D (especially if you've been gaming for more than 4 or 5 years), and
played those big, huge dungeon crawls, and had characters with +10 flaming,
intelligent swords that all cast fireballs and lightning bolts?

Sure, AD&D can be just as munchkinny as any other game... There aren't
many games out tehre that CAN'T be turned into a munchy game with little
effort. AD&D tends to be the most obvious about it...

White Wolf games (Especially Werewolf and Vampire) also tend to be
generalized as a munchy game... But WW players rarely admit to their
munchkinism...

AD&Ders don't know what a munchkin is... <grin>

Rifts players KNOW that they're munhckins and just don't care... <bigger
grin>

Ahhh well... I've met plenty of Munchy SR players as well... But those
are usually kids still learning the game, or guys that don't know better...
We had one guy in our group (Mark McKenna, Mr. White... He was on the
list for little while a short time back, but couldn't handle the mail...:))
who no longer plays with his old GM, because we've shown him what fun a
game based on Role Playing can be...:]

Enough of my rambling... Back to your regularly scheduled {OT] threads...:]

Bull
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max
Message no. 2
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:08:29 +1000
> Rifts players KNOW that they're munhckins and just don't care... <bigger
> grin>

Wot, you mean we're NOT allowed to walk around in power suit beating the
sh*t out of anything that moves? Sorry, or fireballing it, etc? :)

I've found in general that Palladium system games ARE a bit munchkinny,
but no more than any other system CAN be. 'Sides, anyone that plays THAT
system is a rich munchkin... Look at all the damn sourcebooks for it... :)

You forgot Cyberpunk, too. They're munchkins with a death wish! :)

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:16:38 EST
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:08:29 +1000 "ADAM B. TRELOAR"
<s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes:

>I've found in general that Palladium system games ARE a bit
>munchkinny,
>but no more than any other system CAN be. 'Sides, anyone that plays
>THAT
>system is a rich munchkin... Look at all the damn sourcebooks for
>it... :)
>
------
I found that the Palladium system has a bit too many O.C.C's and races,
and skills, and magic spells, and almost everything else. :-o
Message no. 4
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:23:19 +1000
> >I've found in general that Palladium system games ARE a bit
> >munchkinny,
> >but no more than any other system CAN be. 'Sides, anyone that plays
> >THAT
> >system is a rich munchkin... Look at all the damn sourcebooks for
> >it... :)
>
> I found that the Palladium system has a bit too many O.C.C's and races,
> and skills, and magic spells, and almost everything else. :-o

*grin* Depends on your origins. I played the original D&D for years,
with no proficiencies. I can remember the first time I looked at
shadowrun and said 'What do you need all these skills for?' Palladium
has a lot, yes, but look at other systems for silly (ie useless) skills.
Aliens comes to mind.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:31:35 -0600
> Face it... Back then, we were all munchkins... How many of you played
D&D
> and AD&D (especially if you've been gaming for more than 4 or 5 years),
and
> played those big, huge dungeon crawls, and had characters with +10
flaming,
> intelligent swords that all cast fireballs and lightning bolts?

Showing my age here... I started playing DnD back when it came as a set
of 3 white, thin, paperback books (c. 1977). I was in 6th grade. I played

KotB when it was new, and to date it is my third favorite module (the other
2 being X2, and S2(the ultimate munchkin buster!!!)). I love that little
guy.
*sob* *sob*.

> White Wolf games (Especially Werewolf and Vampire) also tend to be
> generalized as a munchy game... But WW players rarely admit to their
> munchkinism...

Although, to our credit (honestly I own more WW than SR), one of the
main reasons munchkinism is rampant in WW is that, statistically, a
beginning level character botches twice as often as she will score
a complete success on a standard difficluty (6). And that's on skills
that she's competent with.

When I play WW, I start all the players off already competent, and
tell them that they aren't going to change much over the next year
or two. Then we focus on characters rather than a race to become
non-incompetent.

It's very frustrating, to start off in a world in which you're supposed
to be something special, but can't even succeed.

One of the reasons that I enjoy SR as a system, is that you can
build a character that is reasonably competent at the beginning,
and is superior to the average person.

> Ahhh well... I've met plenty of Munchy SR players as well... But those
> are usually kids still learning the game, or guys that don't know
better...

This is my observation also...

Agree, disagree, reagree?

Gossamer
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:11:21 +0100
Bull said on 21:00/18 Mar 97...

> Face it... Back then, we were all munchkins... How many of you played D&D
> and AD&D (especially if you've been gaming for more than 4 or 5 years), and
> played those big, huge dungeon crawls, and had characters with +10 flaming,
> intelligent swords that all cast fireballs and lightning bolts?

If you (not you, Bull) keep saying AD&D (or whatever) is munchkinous and
all that, maybe you should just set up a game some time and try _not_ to
roleplay everything about your character, but just kill the monsters and
solve the puzzles in the dungeon like you did in the old days. Taking a
roleplaying vacation, of sorts.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I like having low self esteem. Makes me feel special.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 7
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:18:46 -0500
> If you (not you, Bull) keep saying AD&D (or whatever) is munchkinous and
> all that, maybe you should just set up a game some time and try _not_ to
> roleplay everything about your character, but just kill the monsters and
> solve the puzzles in the dungeon like you did in the old days. Taking a
> roleplaying vacation, of sorts.

Excellent idea Gurth!
We did just this a while back.
I was totally burned out on SR <gasp!> from having to GM EVERY WEEKEND!!!
We played a quick game of AD$D on the Isle of Dread, and BOOM!
I'm ready to Shadowrun again! :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Hoo-Hah! Thrown to the weasels again!"
Message no. 8
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:04:04 -0500
ADAM B. TRELOAR wrote,
>You forgot Cyberpunk, too. They're munchkins with a death wish! :)

I dunno. I seem to recall 1st edition CharGen for Cyberpunk and
something about it comparing PC's to Dorito's. Don't worry, we'll make
more. B>]#
Of course friends have told me that lethality was stepped down in
2020. Not playing the game I couldn't say.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 9
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:13:47 -0500
Gurth wrote,
>If you (not you, Bull) keep saying AD&D (or whatever) is munchkinous and
>all that, maybe you should just set up a game some time and try _not_ to
>roleplay everything about your character, but just kill the monsters and
>solve the puzzles in the dungeon like you did in the old days. Taking a
>roleplaying vacation, of sorts.

<Beavis & Butthead>
DUNGEON CRAWL!
</Beavis & Butthead>

Coming full circle yourself are you? B;>]#

I'll admit to missing the old days of interesting dugeon crawls with
combat against strange new creatures and traps all over the place. When
TSR started doing new dungeon crawl type modules it put a smile on my
face. Especially since FASA gave us a "legitimate" excuse for them in
Earthdawn. B>]#


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 10
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:12:53 +0000
|Rifts players KNOW that they're munhckins and just don't care... <bigger
|grin>

I resemble that remark.....
:)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 19:58:09 +0100
MC23 said on 9:13/19 Mar 97...

> Coming full circle yourself are you? B;>]#

Not really, since I've never suscribed to the "Kill the munchkins!!"
school of roleplaying. I'm in this hobby for fun, and that can include
being a munchkin if need be :)
(Usually, this is at times when I find the other players are _too_
munchkin, so I want to go even further over the top than they are to show
them what they're doing...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I like having low self esteem. Makes me feel special.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:26:40 -0500
Gurth wrote,
>MC23 said on 9:13/19 Mar 97...
>
>> Coming full circle yourself are you? B;>]#
>
>Not really, since I've never suscribed to the "Kill the munchkins!!"
>school of roleplaying. I'm in this hobby for fun, and that can include
>being a munchkin if need be :)

Dungeon crawls aren't neccesarily munchkin adventures, beer and
pretzels type of adventure most definately. I do occasionally desire to
play in one again.
Now about this "Kill the munchkins!!" thing. Where can I sign up?
(Doesn't that sound like a munchkin hackNslash/shootem-up game in itself)
B;>]#

- MC23, who is perpetuating the "I want to kill munchkins" myth -
"I'm a 36th level Munchkin Slayer!"
Message no. 13
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:05:58 -0800
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Bull wrote:

> Rifts players KNOW that they're munhckins and just don't care... <bigger
> grin>

A-MEN!!

(Isn't that the whole point of RIFTS?)

~Tim (Who goes looking for his original Rifts character, complete with
superhuman stats, minor psionics, bionics - including implanted flaming
sword - and of course PowerArmor... which has since been modified beyond
recognition, but not nearly as much as his partner's GlitterBoy a.k.a
Swiss Army PowerArmor. A Munchkin? Probably, but WAAAAAY too much fun to
play)
Message no. 14
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: munchkiny
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:04:58 -0500
At 10:12 AM 3/19/97 +0000, Spike wrote these timeless words:
>|Rifts players KNOW that they're munhckins and just don't care... <bigger
>|grin>
>
>I resemble that remark.....
>:)
>
I specifically had you and a RL friend in mind when I made that statement,
Spikey...:]

Bull-the-Ork-Decker-who-calls-'em-like-he-sees-'em :]
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about munchkiny, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!