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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:42:43 -0400
Just a thought here.

Would it be possible to design a set of goggles worn by a mage that track
where his eyes move, and then relay that info to another set of goggles
worn by a mundane?

The concept I'm working at here is - ASSUMING - that mages eyes DO track
astral forms just as they track mundane sights, then would it not be
possible to use "view to a kill"/smartgun aiming technology to coordinate
the mages eye movements to a mundane, wearing a set of goggles.

This could allow the mundane to see a targeting reticle over the area an
astral form was occupying, thue allowing the mundane to ... I don't know,
hit it with a FAB bat or something. ;-)

This sound logical or have all these cheese puffs melted my brain?

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"FREE FRANCIS BEAN!"
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:06:18 -0400
> From: Steven A. Tinner <bluewizard@*****.COM>
> Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 12:42 AM

> Just a thought here.

Uh oh...

> Would it be possible to design a set of goggles worn by a mage that track
> where his eyes move, and then relay that info to another set of goggles
> worn by a mundane?

Oh my. I would say no, simply because I don't view astral perception as
purely visual input.

> The concept I'm working at here is - ASSUMING - that mages eyes DO track
> astral forms just as they track mundane sights, then would it not be
> possible to use "view to a kill"/smartgun aiming technology to coordinate
> the mages eye movements to a mundane, wearing a set of goggles.

In my campaign, when astrally perceiving, nothing appears different about
the mage on the physical plane. To look to his right, he changes his point
of view, so to speak, but doesn't turn his head, for example. This is just
my opinion, however...I don't think this is clarified in the canon rules
anywhere.

> This could allow the mundane to see a targeting reticle over the area an
> astral form was occupying, thue allowing the mundane to ... I don't know,
> hit it with a FAB bat or something. ;-)

Don't say that word! ;)

> This sound logical or have all these cheese puffs melted my brain?

Defintitely the cheese puffs. ;) Actually, there are ways of seeing into
the astral plane for mundanes, IMO. For example, you may allow LSD to
impart astral perception during part of the trip. Not that you can do a
whole hell of a lot except stare at the pretty colors, but that's an
interesting way of allowing a mundane to experience what a mage does for
awhile. (I rule that all the color trails, etc. seen on an acid trip are
actually things being perceived on the astral plane.) And I am sure folks
could come up with other ways of allowing mundanes to temporarily perceive
the astral plane, without letting it get out of control. After all, using
LSD does have its risks. :)

> Steven A. Tinner

Justin :)
Message no. 3
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:39:49 -0700
> Would it be possible to design a set of goggles worn by a mage that track
> where his eyes move, and then relay that info to another set of goggles
> worn by a mundane?

Once upon a time we tried to come up with something like this..but we
decided that since the Astral plane is now a simple visual place but
rather of all the senses..you might be able to design some sort of
feedback suit..but the mundane wearer would go into sensory
overload..go into shock..and probably go insane..

But that of course was our game..

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 4
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:08:01 -0400
> Oh my. I would say no, simply because I don't view astral perception as
> purely visual input.

Yeah, but IS there a visual aspect to it?
Considering that wounds suffered in astral space transfer to the meat body,
there IS some correlation between astral action and physical reality.

This much leads me to beleive that while the astral is not PURELY visual,
there IS a visual aspect to it, esp, considering that you can split
perception between the two planes when assensing.

Maybe using these goggles would add +2 for the mage, under the splitting
concentraion law?

<Snip LSD>

Not a bad idea, but like you said, hard to do much when tripping!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"FREE FRANCIS BEAN!"
Message no. 5
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:38:28 -0700
>Yeah, but IS there a visual aspect to it?

Yes there..But trying to See only..Would be like trying to play a
video game with only the pixels for red showing on the screen..No
sense could possible be made of the whole picture..

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 6
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:46:51 EDT
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:42:43 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
<<Just a thought here.>>


Take cover!!!
:)


<<Would it be possible to design a set of goggles worn by a mage that
track where his eyes move, and then relay that info to another set of
goggles worn by a mundane?

The concept I'm working at here is - ASSUMING - that mages eyes DO track
astral forms just as they track mundane sights, then would it not be
possible to use "view to a kill"/smartgun aiming technology to coordinate
the mages eye movements to a mundane, wearing a set of goggles.

This sound logical or have all these cheese puffs melted my brain?>>

Oh, definitely the cheese puffs:)

Sounds workable, so long as the magician actually moved his eyes when
he's looking around in astral space. You'd have to make it in such a way
that the goggles don't obstruct vision (and thus, line of sight), but so
long as the magician's eyes track (which they might do out of habit), it
would be completely workable.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 7
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:15:17 -0600
Quoth John E Pederson:
>
> On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:42:43 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
> <bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>
> <<Would it be possible to design a set of goggles worn by a mage that
> track where his eyes move, and then relay that info to another set of
> goggles worn by a mundane?
>
> The concept I'm working at here is - ASSUMING - that mages eyes DO track
> astral forms just as they track mundane sights, then would it not be
> possible to use "view to a kill"/smartgun aiming technology to coordinate
> the mages eye movements to a mundane, wearing a set of goggles.
>
> This sound logical or have all these cheese puffs melted my brain?>>
>
> Oh, definitely the cheese puffs:)
>
> Sounds workable, so long as the magician actually moved his eyes when
> he's looking around in astral space. You'd have to make it in such a way
> that the goggles don't obstruct vision (and thus, line of sight), but so
> long as the magician's eyes track (which they might do out of habit), it
> would be completely workable.

The point everyone seems to have missed here is that for this to work
the meat eyes would also have to focus on the target so that a range
could be determined to the target. Just having a line from the mage's
POV wouldn't do much for you. You'd have to have a pretty good argument
to convice most folks that the meat eyes *would* focus when astrally
percepting anyway. Good idea though.

--
Mike Loseke | I like you but I woudn't want to see
mike@*******.com | you working with subatomic particles.
Message no. 8
From: Nathan Ray <Gabrie6967@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:14:58 -0400
In a message dated 7/31/97 2:05:28 PM, you wrote:

>In my campaign, when astrally perceiving, nothing appears different about
>the mage on the physical plane. To look to his right, he changes his point
>of view, so to speak, but doesn't turn his head, for example. This is just
>my opinion, however...I don't think this is clarified in the canon rules
>anywhere.

But whille astrally percievin
Message no. 9
From: Nathan Ray <Gabrie6967@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:16:53 -0400
In a message dated 7/31/97 2:05:28 PM, you wrote:

>In my campaign, when astrally perceiving, nothing appears different about
>the mage on the physical plane. To look to his right, he changes his point
>of view, so to speak, but doesn't turn his head, for example. This is just
>my opinion, however...I don't think this is clarified in the canon rules
>anywhere.

whoops sorry about that, dropped the mouse... anyway, while astrally
*perceiving* the mage is still in his body, so would be tracking things with
his eyes... maybe...
Message no. 10
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:50:48 -0400
> From: Nathan Ray <Gabrie6967@***.COM>
> Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 3:16 PM

> In a message dated 7/31/97 2:05:28 PM, you wrote:

> >In my campaign, when astrally perceiving, nothing appears different
about
> >the mage on the physical plane. To look to his right, he changes his
point
> >of view, so to speak, but doesn't turn his head, for example. This is
just
> >my opinion, however...I don't think this is clarified in the canon rules
> >anywhere.

> whoops sorry about that, dropped the mouse... anyway, while astrally
> *perceiving* the mage is still in his body, so would be tracking things
with
> his eyes... maybe...

Not in my opinion. :) He's still using the same senses to perceive, thus
he can shift his astral point of view however he likes...in the astral,
IMO, you perceive with your aura. Unlike your eyes, your aura surrounds
your entire being, it doesn't have a fixed field of vision. You can shift
your perception around from one part of the astral to another without
moving your phsyical eyes, because you don't perceive with your eyes on the
astral (which is why a physically blind person is still allowed to astrally
perceive, if applicable).

Justin :)
Message no. 11
From: Nathan Ray <Gabrie6967@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:22:41 -0400
In a message dated 7/31/97 8:53:49 PM, you wrote:

>> whoops sorry about that, dropped the mouse... anyway, while astrally
>
>> *perceiving* the mage is still in his body, so would be tracking things
>
>with
>
>> his eyes... maybe...
>
>
>
>Not in my opinion. :) He's still using the same senses to perceive, thus
>
>he can shift his astral point of view however he likes...in the astral,
>
>IMO, you perceive with your aura. Unlike your eyes, your aura surrounds
>
>your entire being, it doesn't have a fixed field of vision. You can shift
>
>your perception around from one part of the astral to another without
>
>moving your phsyical eyes, because you don't perceive with your eyes on the
>
>astral (which is why a physically blind person is still allowed to astrally
>
>perceive, if applicable).
>
>
>
>Justin :)

So you can astrally percieve to see behind you (eyes in the back of my
head... I like =))

-Gabriel
Message no. 12
From: James A Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:42:01 -0400
> Would it be possible to design a set of goggles worn by a mage that track
> where his eyes move, and then relay that info to another set of goggles
> worn by a mundane?
Maybe use some form of simsense rig? Personally I'm afraid I passed up
Shadowbeat when the price was $2.00 so I don't know the rulings on it. But it
might be somewhere in there....but it would have to be oddly filtered...maybe
very prone to breakdown?

> This could allow the mundane to see a targeting reticle over the area an
> astral form was occupying, thue allowing the mundane to ... I don't know,
> hit it with a FAB bat or something. ;-)
Interesting....seems to me that if you plan to use FAB anyway, have the room
set up like CorpSec Handbook.... How many GM's actually let a player have FAB?

JR
--
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:41:51 -0600
Justin Pinnow wrote:
|
| Okay, you are assuming something here. Allow me to clarify. You CANNOT
| see in all directions at once. You are able to look around without moving
| your physical body, however, by perceiving with a different part of your
| aura. You aren't actually changing or shaping your aura. Since there is
| no necessity to have physical senses in order to astrally perceive, I just
| rule that perception is somehow done via a being's aura. Just think of it
| as having dozens of sets of astral eyes...while only being able to perceive
| with one set at a time, however.

I like DD Mike's adaptation of Indi philosophy defining astral perception
as a mystic third eye on the perceiver's forehead. With practice the third
eye can be moved to a different part of the body (but that part still has
to be large enough to accomodate it, the palm of the hand is allowable, but
not a finger tip). However, appropriate modifiers should be added if any
targeting is attempted while doing this.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 14
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception -Reply
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:14:06 -0500
David Buehrer wrote:
>I like DD Mike's adaptation of Indi philosophy
>defining astral perception as a mystic third eye
>on the perceiver's forehead. With practice the
>third eye can be moved to a different part of
>the body

Thanks, I was just about to repost that...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 15
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:29:18 -0500
At 31-Jul-97 wrote James A Riegel:


>Maybe use some form of simsense rig? Personally I'm afraid I passed up
>Shadowbeat when the price was $2.00 so I don't know the rulings on it. But
it
>might be somewhere in there....but it would have to be oddly filtered...maybe
>very prone to breakdown?

Yup its in there, page 76 Magic and simsense:
. . . Magic illusions work just fine for the actors in simsense,
but magic itself does not record worth a hoot.
Astral elements simply don`t show up in an asist recording.
A sim of a magician casting a spell may have some pretty neat
sensations to it. . .As far as asist is concerned,
there ain`t nothing going on.

>How many GM's actually let a player have FAB?

I have FAB.


--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 16
From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:52:25 -0400
Much discussion snipped.

Are the adventures such as Eye Witness considered as valid as
the source books for opinions on this matter?

The reason I'm asking; in Eye Witness there is a mage, the one
that lives in the sewer, who plucked out his own eye balls so
that he could not see astrally. This also prevented him from
casting magic.

If adventures have validity then it would appear that one does
need one's eyes or cyber eyes for which one paid essence for
inorder to see astrall.

This may be case of where magic works as you believe. So the
mage thought he needed his eyes to see so he did and now
doesn't.



--
Nigel westln@***.edu
AKA C. Yossarrian, UPAC Projectionist
AKA Lorden
Speaking for myself, and no one else.
Message no. 17
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:03:03 -0400
> From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
> Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:52 AM

<Snip>

> If adventures have validity then it would appear that one does
> need one's eyes or cyber eyes for which one paid essence for
> inorder to see astrall.

> This may be case of where magic works as you believe. So the
> mage thought he needed his eyes to see so he did and now
> doesn't.

Well, I believe this is a mistake in some way. Perhaps the writers took
some artistic liberties to write their story/adventure. If you check in
the Companion, you will find that you can still astrally perceive when
blind. Take a look at the point value of the Blindness Flaw. For people
who can astrally perceive, the cost is only -2 instead of the standard -6.
This makes it clear that you can astrally perceive while blind. I don't
see how it matters whether your eyes are present or not...blind is blind in
this case, IMO.

> --
> Nigel westln@***.edu

Justin :)
Message no. 18
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:00 EDT
>> From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
>> Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:52 AM
>
><Snip>
>
>> If adventures have validity then it would appear that one does
>> need one's eyes or cyber eyes for which one paid essence for
>> inorder to see astrall.
>
>> This may be case of where magic works as you believe. So the
>> mage thought he needed his eyes to see so he did and now
>> doesn't.
>

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:03:03 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
<<Well, I believe this is a mistake in some way. Perhaps the writers
took some artistic liberties to write their story/adventure. If you
check in the Companion, you will find that you can still astrally
perceive when blind. Take a look at the point value of the Blindness
Flaw. For people who can astrally perceive, the cost is only -2 instead
of the standard -6. This makes it clear that you can astrally perceive
while blind. I don't see how it matters whether your eyes are present or
not...blind is blind in this case, IMO.>>


You might note that it never says you don't have eyes with the Blind
Flaw:) Besides, we all know SR's magic system is based around the idea
that magic works according to the beliefs of the practitioner. If the guy
believed he needed his eyes for astral perception, then goshdarnit! he
needs his eyes to look at the astral:) Honestly, I don't think I'd allow
any of my players to pull the "look out of any part of aura" trick, it
doesn't match up with the way I thnk things are written in SR (it doesn't
contradict, but it doesn't really match up for me, either). Sides, maybe
the guy couldn't perceive, maybe he was only a sorceror. Not having those
eyes would pretty much kill LOS for the guy.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 19
From: James A Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:47:52 -0400
<snip>
> some artistic liberties to write their story/adventure. If you check in
> the Companion, you will find that you can still astrally perceive when
> blind. Take a look at the point value of the Blindness Flaw. For people
> who can astrally perceive, the cost is only -2 instead of the standard -6.
> This makes it clear that you can astrally perceive while blind. I don't
> see how it matters whether your eyes are present or not...blind is blind in
> this case, IMO.
> Justin :)

Hmmm.....It's been stated that magic in the SR world is a matter of personal
perception...So I'd tend to agree with the statement that not having eyeballs
shouldn't matter...but at the same time you have to get over the human
limitation of "I don't have eyeballs....I can't see!" a different thread is
aruguing whether or not you can shift where you perceive without moving your
eyes....I'd say it's the same thing there....some people can and others are too
locked into the view of 'this is how the universe is'. I don't accept the
statement that 'any trained mage in the game can do both these things'. IMHO,
if that were true then any hermetic could whip up nature spirits. --
Message no. 20
From: James A Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:09:14 -0400
<snip>
> Yup its in there, page 76 Magic and simsense:
> . . . Magic illusions work just fine for the actors in simsense,
> but magic itself does not record worth a hoot.
> Astral elements simply don`t show up in an asist recording.
> A sim of a magician casting a spell may have some pretty neat
> sensations to it. . .As far as asist is concerned,
> there ain`t nothing going on.
<end snip>

Hmmm......that pretty effectively kills that...altho if the tech was very very
very good it could still work. Sure, the player receiving the info would _not_
receive any visual info but if the system was sensitive enough it would be able
to tell where the mage was focusing his meat eyes...Yes, extrememly minute
changes in the shape of the mages eye would blow the calibration
(nearsightedness tends to be gradual), but it should be possible to determine
what point in space the eyes are converging on and pass the info to a smartgun
rig. Call it +8 for blind fire ("My smartlink is telling me to fire at WHAT?")
but maybe cut that down a bit after the person becomes comfortable with the
system....not really practical to stick in a rulebook but a system covering an
individual group should be doable. Thanks for the bit from Sbeat BTW.

JR
--
Message no. 21
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Mundane Astral Perception
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:18:59 -0400
> From: James A Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
> Date: Saturday, August 02, 1997 10:47 AM

> <snip>
> > some artistic liberties to write their story/adventure. If you check
in
> > the Companion, you will find that you can still astrally perceive when
> > blind. Take a look at the point value of the Blindness Flaw. For
people
> > who can astrally perceive, the cost is only -2 instead of the standard
-6.
> > This makes it clear that you can astrally perceive while blind. I
don't
> > see how it matters whether your eyes are present or not...blind is
blind in
> > this case, IMO.
> > Justin :)

> Hmmm.....It's been stated that magic in the SR world is a matter of
personal
> perception...So I'd tend to agree with the statement that not having
eyeballs
> shouldn't matter...but at the same time you have to get over the human
> limitation of "I don't have eyeballs....I can't see!" a different thread
is
> aruguing whether or not you can shift where you perceive without moving
your
> eyes....I'd say it's the same thing there....some people can and others
are too
> locked into the view of 'this is how the universe is'. I don't accept
the
> statement that 'any trained mage in the game can do both these things'.
IMHO,
> if that were true then any hermetic could whip up nature spirits. --

Well, Astral Perception isn't limited to Tradition, so I didn't limit
anything that you could do with it to either Tradition. I figure, if one
Tradition can do it, so can the other. Once word gets out that you can do
this on the Astral, most mages will jump at the chance to learn how. But I
just assumed that since what I was stating was just an extrapolation of the
rules of Astral Perception, that everyone already pretty much knows how to
do it.

Justin :)

Further Reading

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